Marines urinating on Taliban corpses. [Archive]

Rockstar

01-12-12, 05:58 PM

Happens during war. Some are successful in hiding the truth and atrocities others get caught. Of course the pious sitting behind their desks come out in droves shaking their heads in disgust.

Some like the Dutch still have their heads in the sand over thier own nations violent history.

Jop Hueting, perhaps the most famous Dutch soldier of the Indonesian war, who was decorated for the bravery he displayed in an airborne assault on Jakarta, has compared some of the massacres he witnessed to the My Lai incident during the Vietnam War. Mr Hueting, who was also in court as a possible witness for the defence, says the comparison between the Nazi SS and the Dutch forces is appropriate, because 'it is a metaphor for unbelievably violent behaviour by our forces'.

Other nations get involved with torture and brutality too.

The Petrozavodsk resident Novikov, who testified before the Investigation Committee witnessed how, in Camp No. 2 the Finns selected 30 inmates, allegedly war prisoners. They drove them to Loe Tolstoy Street and subjected them there to excruciating torture. They burned the heels of the "prisoners" with a red-hot iron, beat them with rubber clubs and then shot 15 of them. The remaining 15 persons were sent back to Camp No. 2 after 25 days.

-

U.S. Marines in Afganistan, most likely engaged the enemy on in a battle. The enemy was overcome by superior forces and killed. The dead know one thing and that is they're dead. Marines know something too about nature and that is, when ya gotta go ya gotta go.

kraznyi_oktjabr

01-12-12, 06:07 PM

The Petrozavodsk resident Novikov, who testified before the Investigation Committee witnessed how, in Camp No. 2 the Finns selected 30 inmates, allegedly war prisoners. They drove them to Loe Tolstoy Street and subjected them there to excruciating torture. They burned the heels of the "prisoners" with a red-hot iron, beat them with rubber clubs and then shot 15 of them. The remaining 15 persons were sent back to Camp No. 2 after 25 days.Source?

CCIP

01-12-12, 06:14 PM

I don't think this is by any means 'natural' or worthy of excusing, but it is a good reminder that war is ugly business, even in the age of social media and our apparent civility. It'll never fail to bring out the worst in some people, because the very nature of war is hatred. While I agree that it's shameful and unbecoming, I think it's also rather facetious of the USMC to try and distance itself from it in terms of values and expectations. The very business of that and every other fighting force is to kill effectively, expediently and ruthlessly. Everything after that is secondary, and one would be deluded to think that most soldiers can do that sort of thing in cold blood and without genuine hatred and downright craziness boiling over every once in a while. What's more, most military services in fact encourage and train people in channeling that sort of hatred and craziness into 'productive' directions - but the fact is, once it gets to a certain point, you're not even really thinking.

So, it's very much the reality of the whole business, and it'll always be this way. This sort of exorcism of "bad apples" that we get in media every once in a while is no more than a deflection of attention from how ugly the war in general is.

Dowly

01-12-12, 06:20 PM

Source?

If I'm not completely mistaken it's from the Extraordinary State Commission of
Soviet Union, released in 1944, before the war's end. :roll:

That would be the same people who tried to blame the Katyn massacre on the
germans, when in fact the poles had been shot by Soviet troops.

So, yeah, nice try. ;)

TarJak

01-12-12, 06:31 PM

Rule #1 when committing a war attrocity: Don't record it in anyway or leave any witnesses to it.

Idiots is the right term to describe these Jarheads.

Ducimus

01-12-12, 06:33 PM

Happens during war. Some are successful in hiding the truth and atrocities others get caught. Of course the pious sitting behind their desks come out in droves shaking their heads in disgust.

This.

Personally, I think its all to easy to cast judgement when your not walking through the same dangers and daily BS you'd have to deal with being a combat area. The big kicker is something that most people who haven't walked a similar walk don't think about. Coping and the environment.

By environment, i don't mean "Go green, save the tree", i mean the job, the people around you, the daily hazards you face. The harsher it is, the harsher your character can become, because not everyone deals with things the same way. Some things can effect a person more severe then others.

Ill bet almost anything, that there's a good number of troops that
- probably don't remember how old they are or when their birthday was, or even holidays like xmas.
- don't remember what the sound of a loved ones voice is
- probably lives day by day, with home nothing but a distant memory, and their current situation just "how it is, and how it is always going to be".

At some point, you lose a bit of your .... civility? Im not sure what the word is, but at some point, you just stop giving a damn, because the current nightmare, will never end.

Ill further wager that when some of them get back to the states, they'll think their dreaming, be in a state of total disbeleif that "it" is finally over, and that when they wake up in the morning, it'll be on a cot in a tent or bunker somewhere, with being back in the states, a wild dream, a fantasy impossible to realize.

edit:

Rule #1 when committing a war attrocity: Don't record it in anyway or leave any witnesses to it.

Idiots is the right term to describe these Jarheads.

Also this. There's an old expression that's been around, probably since vietnam.

"What happens in the field, STAYS in the field." Also expressed as, "What goes TDY, stays TDY".

Platapus

01-12-12, 06:57 PM

Well if I know Marines like I think I do, I imagine there will be some private "counseling" by some NCOs. The Marines have a way of "self policing" when it comes to their public image and discipline.

I would not banter the term "war crimes" although technically it can be considered one. It was simply a breaking of the UCMJ and demonstrated a lack of professionalism. Let the Corps deal with it like any other infringement.

Yes, this will have some non-zero effect on the baddies, but it won't be the turning point of either side.

As a professional military member myself, I am appalled and disturbed at such conduct. But in the military faeces eventuates. The military, and especially the Corps know how to handle this.

I had the pleasure (if that is truly the right word) of working with Master Gunnery Sergeant Lopez. That was one of the most squared away Marines I ever worked with and that is saying something.

I could just imagine what MGYSGT Lopez would have to "say" to these individuals. :o:o.

I was subjected to one of his "friendly" chats. (gulp!) He was merciful and I survived. :D

Herr-Berbunch

01-12-12, 07:07 PM

OK, so these things happen. Just don't film it!!!

Mobile phones in theatre are seemingly one of the biggest causes of US mil bad publicity. If you want your phone in theatre to keep in touch with loved ones back home, fine, just think before using it for anything else! :nope:

nikimcbee

01-12-12, 07:14 PM

01-12-12, 07:21 PM

Disgraceful and stupid with much more publicity than its worth.
I'm sure its not typical US armed force behavior but it will be turned to satch by some .....some will party over this being "horrified".:nope:

August

01-12-12, 07:25 PM

Such things have happened in every war that man has ever fought. The difference now is that it's likely to be video recorded.

u crank

01-12-12, 07:49 PM

Skybird

01-12-12, 07:56 PM

Not desirable, for it does not serve the purpose of securing the military objective, but is best advertising campaign for the enemy's recruiting program.

But let's face it, in a war you also need the blood-thirsty biting dogs to do the bloody dirty stuff that is inevitable in war. You cannot fight and win with caring, civilised mental attitude alone - you need brutality on your side as well, and that takes a mental attitude that not everybody can produce.

That said, I wonder what is going on in some people's head. Not only the unneeded act itself, but even taking pictures - taking evidence...? Have they gotten hit in the head before, or were they alraedy born that dumb?

"Krieg vertiert." - Egon Bahr

CaptainHaplo

01-12-12, 08:26 PM

The initial strike against the Taliban was with Napalm.

They were trying to put out the fire so they could render medical aid as necessary. It was a humanitarian effort.

Thats my story and I am sticking to it!:yeah:

TLAM Strike

01-12-12, 08:35 PM

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/792/apocalypsenow10418.jpg

"We train young men to drop fire on people, but their commanders won't allow them to write "____" on their airplanes because it's obscene"
-Colonel Walter E. Kurtz

Rockstar

01-12-12, 08:43 PM

I think Ducimus has it right. War is not waged for public approval. It's not pretty and seldom humane. It is inhuman at best, and down right ugly in its worst moments. Like he said this is nothing new and it will happen again. I believe that if we knew everything that went on we wouldn't sleep to well.

The media has to make a big deal out of this. It's just the thing they wait for and will debate it to no end. With cell phones in combat expect more of the same.

In the early 70's I met a Viet Nam vet who boasted to me that he killed a Viet Cong prisoner. Later when I questioned him on this, he told me that he saw his closest buddy die a few days earlier. Even then a few years later he still hadn't accepted it. My attitude changed and I'm glad I've never been to war.

"It is well that war is so terrible. We should grow too fond of it" Robert E. Lee

I sure as heck wouldn't want to do what these Marines are doing.

All I want to hear about is successful outcome I really don't want to know how they achieved it. It's a war, and it's a nasty mean business in which we send our fellow man to do the unthinkable. As some, shaking their heads in disgust while playing U-Boot commander on a computer remenicing of the real glories of war.

All I got to add is I guess it sucked being a Taliban that day

yubba

01-12-12, 10:27 PM

CCIP

01-12-12, 10:31 PM

So where's the outrage, when the taliban stones women to death, disfigures them, murders noncombatants, and does other terrorrist acts maybe we should just p on them, killing them doesn't seem to bother them. Next time don't take pictures.

In fairness, the Taliban isn't funded by American tax dollars and backed by international mandates.

Or wait, is it :hmmm:

Onkel Neal

01-12-12, 10:41 PM

gimpy117

01-13-12, 01:37 AM

well, it's war....

HunterICX

01-13-12, 03:32 AM

So where's the outrage, when the taliban stones women to death, disfigures them, murders noncombatants, and does other terrorrist acts maybe we should just p on them, killing them doesn't seem to bother them. Next time don't take pictures.

It's an outrage that with these type of incidents our men are lowering their standarts while representing our nations and what we stand for.
Aren't we supposed to be better?

I don't mind if they wipe out the Taliban (good riddance if you ask me) but let's not get carried away with childish acts like this.

HunterICX

Tribesman

01-13-12, 04:37 AM

So where's the outrage, when the taliban stones women to death, disfigures them, murders noncombatants, and does other terrorrist acts maybe we should just p on them, killing them doesn't seem to bother them.
Ever visited the real world?
In case you missed reality while you were crawling out of the bottle the widespread well publicised outrage against the Taliban is one major reason why the action in Afghanistan was so well supported.
But hey if you want to lower the standards so everyone has to match some crazy fundamentalists when it comes to ethics then you truly are deserving of pity.

yubba

01-13-12, 09:09 AM

What real world, your wishy washy world, then I would just sume retreat in too a bottle, but I have no intentions in doing so, it doesn't do anything for me anymore, and at that point of my life I had a good time being a partier, and beleive me I had a very good time, so if you are so outraged that a few young marines p'd on some corpses then we should get our troops out of there right now and never get into another conflict until we decide to win one. Me for one, I don't care what goes on, on the battlefeild as long as we are winning, as a Marine myself and if I just killed someone that was trying to kill me damn right I'd p on them too. All we are doing is sending a messeage to our ememies how weak we are, and have no resolve too win, because we are so worried that we might hurt our enemies feelings. The left has turned this country into a bunch of wussies. And with your high standards we would never win, in war you need to be meaner and nastier than your enemy so that he doesn't want show up on the battlefeild, that's how you win wars .

Tribesman

01-13-12, 09:23 AM

What real world, your wishy washy world
No the real world, maybe you should be introduced to it, its the one where people condemn the Taliban for being arses, its also the one where people condemn the Somalis when they drag bodies through the streets of mogadishu or the Iraqis when they burn bodies and hang them from bridges....which also should be the one where pissing on a body is equally condemned, especially by those who go crazy with outrage when some other nations pricks are doing it.

then I would just sume retreat in too a bottle
Is that why you stayed pissed for decades until you lost your job, the real world was too much for ya to handle?

All we are doing is sending a messeage to our ememies how weak we are, and have no resolve too win, because we are so worried that we might hurt our enemies feelings. The left has turned this country into a bunch of wussies.
You really are clueless ain't ya.:doh:

And with your high standards we would never win, in war you need to be meaner and nastier than your enemy so that he doesn't want show up on the battlefeild
Tell that to Heinrich, I don't think his soldiers got the message.

Skybird

01-13-12, 09:39 AM

Strange, but by the principle of what yubba is saying, i agree. I am a strong fan of beheading your enemy and stick their heads on poles and line them up at the border, facing the direction of the enemy's home land and giving a warning to everybody daring to cross that border again in hostile intention. In case of Muslim armies and other enemies believing in that stuff: poke their eyes out, too.

If Islam, which is a fundamentalist and totalitarian ideology from all beginning on, and is a conqueror's self-justifying ideology, if this Islam understands one communication beside its own megalomianic claim for ruling all and ruling alone, then this other form of communication is only force and a determination and a ruthlessness equal to or surpassing its own. No external power has brought Islamic expansion ever to a halt, except this: superior fighting power, military superiority (or pure luck). Strength and force are the only external form of communication Islam really understands, and reacts too. All other kinds of deals and negotiations and treaties are just seen as forms of the other's weakness, and thus: an invitation to exploit and abuse them.

War is neither just, nor fair, and it certainly is not humane or civilised. It is the absence of all these qalities. That is what defines it. You cannot judge war by moral standards from peacetime, that never worked, never made sense, and never will. If you cannot see and accept this, guys, then never vote for war, never go to war, simply stay away form it and run away from it, for if you do not accept it's grim, brutal nature, the only thing you can earn when going to war, is defeat, and/or more own losses than necessary. Which to accept is irresponsible and mean towards those you command to risk their lives in your army.

The soldiers in this case acted stupid, more in that they took pictures than in the deed itself. By that, they did not send the enemy a message. They started a recruiting program for him, and they made themselves looking like idiots. Having the generals and politicians and the president at home giving the order to stick heads on poles and line them up at the border to Pakistan - that would be sending a message. What these soldiers did, is just children's play and helping the enemy.

What makes war more brutal and barbaric, is good. It makes it less likely and makes people hesitent to be in favour of it. And in case of a war being there nevertheless, it increases the chance to destroy the enemy and claim victory. What makes war appearing civilised and less inhumane, increases the likelihood and acceptability, and it weakens your war effort, and makes you embrace foul compromises.

TLAM,
good quote, I had it on mind myself, too.

Jimbuna

01-13-12, 09:51 AM

TBH as much as I thought the incident was tasteless and insensitive (assuming the film is real) I can't help thinking each and every one of us would have to have an identical experience before we could definitively say what we would have done given an identical set of circumstances.

Nothing wrong with having an opinion or a viewpoint though...this is the internet after all.

Tribesman

01-13-12, 09:54 AM

Strange, but by the principle of what yubba is saying, i agree
That is because you are a loony fundamentalist just like the Saudi payrolled crazies.

Onkel Neal

01-13-12, 09:58 AM

Ever visited the real world?
In case you missed reality while you were crawling out of the bottle....

This kind of phrasing directed to another forum member could be seen as nonproductive and provacative.

yubba

01-13-12, 09:59 AM

I got a better grasp on things that than I let on, so why have we been there this long ???? WW 2 in less time, why are you so upset that some dumb marines p'd on some corpse I'm p'd that we have been there longer than we needed to be with no plans on winning. Yeah by the way, I can't handle seeing my country being turned into a socalist crap hole, and the job went to the way side because of socalist crap hole policies, hope you will enjoy what's comeing, Haiti is starting to look like better place to be. A few p'd on corpses will be the least of our worries enjoy the 5 dollar a gallon for gas and what comes with that.

yubba

01-13-12, 10:02 AM

This kind of phrasing directed to another forum member could be seen as nonproductive and provacative.
That's ok I'm a big boy I can handle it I can take it as well as I can dish it out. Some people just can't handle the truth. after all this is the internet, I had to steal that, that was pretty good

kraznyi_oktjabr

01-13-12, 10:10 AM

That's ok I'm a big boy I can handle it I can take it as well as I can dish it out. Some people just can't handle the truth....says person who claims that USA is becoming socialist. :roll:

Your beloved country is still much more capitalistic than most other countries and Obama's plans are not going to change that (and no I don't agree all of them). Could you please help me to understand you (instead of getting angry) by explaining what the heck you mean with socialism?

Tribesman

01-13-12, 10:16 AM

This kind of phrasing directed to another forum member could be seen as nonproductive and provacative.
noted:salute:

why are you so upset that some dumb marines p'd on some corpse
Because it is counter productive.
If urinating on a corpse would help get a positive solution it might perhaps be a little bit justifyable to some small extent.
But as it doesn't in the slightest it is just plain stupid.

A few p'd on corpses will be the least of our worries enjoy the 5 dollar a gallon for gas and what comes with that.
Perhaps you should have invested back when Georgy went playing silly buggers in Mesopotamia, I thank you for your $5 a gallon donations:up:

CaptainHaplo

01-13-12, 10:17 AM

Could you please help me to understand you (instead of getting angry) by explaining what the heck you mean with socialism?

Can ya'll take that discussion to another thread?

Back to the topic - I still say use the fire defence.................

kraznyi_oktjabr

01-13-12, 10:20 AM

Can ya'll take that discussion to another thread?Good point. :salute:

@yubba: Could you please answer using PM?

HunterICX

01-13-12, 10:36 AM

in war you need to be meaner and nastier than your enemy so that he doesn't want show up on the battlefeild, that's how you win wars .

No, try again.

you don't win a war by beeing nastier then the enemy...simple as that...
beeing nasty just makes you not any better then what you're fighting.

You beat someone by beeing better then them.
I know well enough you can't make war prettier...but isn't needed to literally piss all over it.

HunterICX

Skybird

01-13-12, 10:46 AM

No, try again.

you don't win a war by beeing nastier then the enemy...simple as that...
beeing nasty just makes you not any better then what you're fighting.

You beat someone by beeing better then them.
I know well enough you can't make war prettier...but isn't needed to literally piss all over it.

HunterICX
In Afghanistan, Western troops are "better" than the Taliban and tribal factions. Better training, better comms, better weapons. And still - strategic defeat.

In Iraq 03, US and British troops were "better" than the mutlitude of enemy groups they faced. Better training, better, comms, better weapons, better CCCI. And still - stratgeic defeat.

In Lebanon 06, Israel was "better". Better weapons, comms, an air froce, tanks, better in everything. Still - strategic defeat.

In Vietnam, it is often claimed the US won every major engagement on the ground. The US was better: better in weapons, comms, CCCI. And still - strategic defeat.

What were the other sides superior in? Determination. The ability to suffer. Holding their breath for longer than the West.

The most ridiculous example was Iraq 91: here we must no argue who was better. And then - the victory was simply handed over on a silver plate. I honstely think that Bush senior should be courtmartialed and shot for this high treason.

You do not win wars be being better. You do not win wars by scaring the enemy.

You win wars by being determined to kill the enemy and to destroy what is his, and not allowing anything or anyone to stand between you and your objectives, may it be causes, nations, politics, scruples, persons, or whatever.

Tribesman

01-13-12, 11:10 AM

you don't win a war by beeing nastier then the enemy...simple as that...

Yes, look at the French. They went crazy and squashed a small problem but it in turn created a huge one that kicked them to pieces

The most ridiculous example was Iraq 91
Is that the one where people decided that overthrowing Saddam would be a silly thing to do and it would fracture the country while strenghthening Iran as a regional power.
I could have sworn that a person who goes by the name of Skybird held such views very forcefully over a decade ofter that.
Then again that would also be the Skybird who regularly wanted the Americans hauled up for war crimes as well as all those in the Balkans whose savagery and disregard for the laws of war had left so many shattered lives he had to deal with.

CCIP

01-13-12, 11:41 AM

The whole idea of winning even a total war by being nastier than your enemy is debatable. But you especially don't win non-wars by being worse than the enemy. In my view, Afghanistan is very much a non-war - and I don't mean that as an insult, just that it's not really a war in any traditional sense. It is far from a total war, and it is arguably not even really a civil war. It is a weird sort of policing operation with cloudy objectives. And in a policing situation, you know what happens when "the law" gets brutal. Rarely ends well.

One of the fundamental problems here of course is that something like the Marine Corps is not and cannot be a police force. That's not what they're for, that's not how they work. Again, I find it facetious of the authorities to scapegoat 4 Marines here when the real blame should lie with those who put them there to do a job that they're fundamentally unqualified for, all for the delusion of a 'clean war' that is neither clean nor a war.

mapuc

01-13-12, 12:21 PM

Even if the enemy fights dirty, one should not lower it self to same level.

Skybird use those words several times "strategic defeat"

The I-countries gonna lose every war from now and until Judgement Day
(A war is two thing 1.winning the battle. 2.Winning the peace)

You know why the I-countries gonna lose every war??

we are so keen to observe the various rights, such as human rights, etc., Would i argue that in the heat of war and subsequent random eliminate these rights? For this I must say-I do not know. I think that we should not lower ourselves down to their level. On the other hand, we must sometimes override certain rights. For do we not, we gonna lose every war , in the future.

Markus

Ducimus

01-13-12, 12:21 PM

It's easy for one to sit in the morally righteous high chair and cast judgement if they've never been in a situation where they were pushed hard enough to question their own morals to begin with, nor would they know what their really capable of.

More 2 cents worth from the peanut gallery.

u crank

01-13-12, 12:29 PM

The desecration of enemy bodies in war is nothing new. The whole idea in war is total domination of your enemy. The physiological aspect of this can't be denied. Terrorizing and demoralizing the enemy is just part of the deal.

During WW2 the famed 1st Special Service Force, The Black Devils, would go out on night recon, kill enemy sentries and leave this calling card on their bodies and fortifications.

http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/5952/devilsbrigade.jpg

DAS DICKE ENDE KOMMT NOCH! ... THE WORST IS YET TO COME!

The brigade's casualty rate was 39 percent. My guess is they 'may' have done more than leave calling cards. Again it's nothing new. The message being delivered has always been: Don't mess with us!

This isn't about being nastier than your enemy. I doubt if they think of it at that level. It's more personal than that. Those dead guys were trying to kill those Marines. They don't care what you call it; non war, police action or whatever. The reality doesn't change. Pissing on a dead body is NOT the worst thing that happens in a war. Killing innocent civilians beats that by a little. As Rockstar said "I sure as heck wouldn't want to do what these Marines are doing." For that reason I refuse to pass judgement on this event. I'll let the media experts do that.

To all NATO forces in Afghanistan, good luck and safe return.

Rilder

01-13-12, 12:30 PM

The way I see it, you kill an enemy, he is out of the fight. Do you really need to be a douchebag about it and disrespect him?

You killed him, it's over, move on.

What level of barbarity is "Okay as long as you don't leave any evidence"?

Oberon

01-13-12, 12:35 PM

It's no worse than what they do to the corpses of our soldiers. There's a reason that there's so much of a concerted effort to recover bodies in battles over there. :nope:

It's not right, no, but it's war...human nature prevails in it, and you get some people whose emotions overtake them. For all we know those guys could have lost a member of their unit to a roadside IED the week before.

This kind of thing has happened in every war in the past (heck centuries ago it was encouraged) and it will happen in every war in the future. The fact that there is so much of a scandal about it whenever it happens with a Western force speaks a lot about how far we've gone to try and remove it from our armed forces. The armed forces of Somalia, on the other hand, would probably not hold a court martial for a similar offence.

Does that make us better? I don't know...socially and morally, yes. But morals do not win wars, just ask Curtis Le May and Arthur Harris. Ask the Commissars of the Soviet Union. Ask any of the espionage agents that have died horrific deaths that we have no idea about in order to prevent wars we never knew might have happened.

Inter arma enim silent leges

Hottentot

01-13-12, 12:51 PM

Does that make us better?

I'd say it's more about do we want to act better. Because that's exactly what we have done and do: "they" haven't said "you guys are better than we are" and most likely won't. We ourselves have put us in that position, and it is undermined every time something like this happens. As said before, "they do it too" is usually a poor excuse, because that doesn't make us better than them. It slowly makes us equal with them, which doesn't seem to be what we ourself want to be seen as.

Basically we've dug our own pit in this case.

Oberon

01-13-12, 12:56 PM

I'd say it's more about do we want to act better. Because that's exactly what we have done and do: "they" haven't said "you guys are better than we are" and most likely won't. We ourselves have put us in that position, and it is undermined every time something like this happens. As said before, "they do it too" is usually a poor excuse, because that doesn't make us better than them. It slowly makes us equal with them, which doesn't seem to be what we ourself want to be seen as.

Basically we've dug our own pit in this case.

Indeed.
I'm fully in favour of better morality in war, and the good treatment of prisoners, after all...there but for the grace of God...
However such things often fight against human emotion and the strongest element which is revenge. At least these incidents are sporadic events rather than doctrine.
I imagine though, that if there were ever another war against a military power which was stronger than us and we had our backs against the wall and things were desperate...would we still maintain that moral superiority? If our fellow countrymen were being slaughtered in the hundreds and our land was partially occupied. Would we still manage to be upright citizens? Or would that halo slip?

Makes you think...

Dowly

01-13-12, 01:08 PM

kraznyi_oktjabr

01-13-12, 01:11 PM

Hottentot

01-13-12, 01:13 PM

I'm fully in favour of better morality in war, and the good treatment of prisoners, after all...there but for the grace of God...
However such things often fight against human emotion and the strongest element which is revenge. At least these incidents are sporadic events rather than doctrine.

This provokes an interesting thought on the levels of any war. Wars are started by different people than those who fight them. The politicians in their offices benefit from claiming moral superiority. It can be "protecting civilians" or "humanitarian intervention" or "removing a dictator" or whatever, but it can't be "look, we are just really eager to test our new toys and they happen to have stuff we want, so there." That would be an internetional relations equal of suicide for any country, especially these days.

But the guys who actually go there, kill and get killed or at least have their friends killed? Yeah, I can see why some of them wouldn't put moral superiority on the top of their priority list. War is a dirty business, there is no denying that.

if there were ever another war against a military power which was stronger than us and we had our backs against the wall and things were desperate...would we still maintain that moral superiority? If our fellow countrymen were being slaughtered in the hundreds and our land was partially occupied. Would we still manage to be upright citizens? Or would that halo slip?Unless it would be "the whole world against us" scenario, I'm fairly sure at least our politicians would still do everything to make us look like the good guys. It's the basics of propaganda, and propaganda is the basics of war, especially one which you are in danger of losing.

Plus, on the international level, sympathy might not mean much, but it's still better than nothing and in some cases can be surprisingly powerful tool. One of the reasons for why Finland didn't lose the Winter War (well, totally anyway) was indeed that we were seen as the good guys in that conflict, and Stalin knew that.

Skybird

01-13-12, 01:19 PM

In my view, Afghanistan is very much a non-war - and I don't mean that as an insult, just that it's not really a war in any traditional sense. It is far from a total war, and it is arguably not even really a civil war. It is a weird sort of policing operation with cloudy objectives.
That's why they have lost the war already years ago. Because they did not realise they were in for a real war. Asymmetrical war maybe, but nevertheless a real war. No policing mission. No lecturing lesson. No robust mandate.

A real war.

They also did not see that Pakistan was their enemy. They also denied the ammount to which Iran interferes in Afghanistan, and that both nations have no interest at all to let come Afghanistan to peace and stability.

No war. No enemy. No bad intentions of neighbours. - I see a pattern in intellectual failure there.

The careless loosing of a war can never be excused. But it can be explained.

Skybird

01-13-12, 01:26 PM

Somebody above mentioned Bomber Harris, Total War, and all that. Well, it showed to not work, the bombing of civilian populations in case of Nazi Germanby or British cities did not demoralise people, but made them react with stubborness and rallying closer together. In that case, it makes no sense to continue with the attempt of demoralising the civilian population in order to weaken the enemy in his very own home.

Determination also needs pragmatism and an unbiased assessement of what combat methods work as intended for what purpose, and what does not, or works differently, or produces other effects than expected. I do not talk cruelty for the sake of being cruel. I am about determination, and not allowing to get distracted from what helps to win a war, crush an enemy, and reducing the risk to own troops as much as possible.

Cruelty, and determination - are two very different things.

STEED

01-13-12, 01:30 PM

I'm not jumping the gun on this one as there was a British one of this sort of thing a few years ago but was proved to be false.

Ducimus

01-13-12, 01:50 PM

I'm not jumping the gun on this one as there was a British one of this sort of thing a few years ago but was proved to be false.

I just decided to look it up on youtube to see if it was there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjGUo5H0vWM

Ill be honest, I laughed. I'm not casting judgement because If i was over there, I may have done the same thing if i didn't get stage fright. I always had a hard time breaking the seal when others were around to watch. In my opinion, they only thing they REALLY did wrong, was record those shinnigans. That was stupid.

I think the only thing that bugs me, is how people can sit in total saftey behind their desk and spout all this morally superior BS, or claim they'd never do anything like that. I disagree. I'll bet you could, you just don't know it, because you haven't been pushed or molded by the world around you. People ARE products of their environment, and People are capable of anything when subjected to enough of what ill call, "harsh reality" for lack of a better way to phrase it.

Tribesman

01-13-12, 02:04 PM

I think the only thing that bugs me, is how people can sit in total saftey behind their desk and spout all this morally superior BS
Do you ever consider that it is because of the very justifications people have been using for these conflicts.
People condemn torture then justify it, people condemn desecrating bodies then justify it.
That is what should be bugging you, the simple fact that again and again the same people are trying to justify the very things that they condemn.
It has bugger all to do with sitting in safety or being on the front line, it has to do with the gross hypocracy.

vienna

01-13-12, 02:16 PM

Do you ever consider that it is because of the very justifications people have been using for these conflicts.
People condemn torture then justify it, people condemn desecrating bodies then justify it.
That is what should be bugging you, the simple fact that again and again the same people are trying to justify the very things that they condemn.
It has bugger all to do with sitting in safety or being on the front line, it has to do with the gross hypocracy.

Well said...

And consider this, as the investigation furthers, and if it is found some of the more 'superior' non-coms/officers had knowledge of and/or attempted to cover up the situation without taking appropriate action, the level of hypocracy will rise in accordance with rank. The part that always mystifies me in these sorts of situation is how, if the people in command bring forward the incidents themselve and take appropriate action, the military would be seen as properly self-policing and worthy of public trust and respect. Instead what we get is a series of finger pointings from the top down until it rests solely on the lowest ranks and the public is left shaking their heads at military "business as usual"...

Oberon

01-13-12, 02:38 PM

I just decided to look it up on youtube to see if it was there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjGUo5H0vWM

Ill be honest, I laughed. I'm not casting judgement because If i was over there, I may have done the same thing if i didn't get stage fright. I always had a hard time breaking the seal when others were around to watch. In my opinion, they only thing they REALLY did wrong, was record those shinnigans. That was stupid.

Are they actually urinating on the corpses? It might just be the video quality but I don't actually see any urine...

Dowly

01-13-12, 02:40 PM

Are they actually urinating on the corpses? It might just be the video quality but I don't actually see any urine...

The guy on the left is, dunno about the rest.

TFatseas

01-13-12, 03:21 PM

Personally, I like what Col. Allen West had to say about it...

Rep. Allen West (R-Fla.), a former Army lieutenant colonel, sends THE WEEKLY STANDARD an email commenting on the Marines' video, and has given us permission to publish it.

“I have sat back and assessed the incident with the video of our Marines urinating on Taliban corpses. I do not recall any self-righteous indignation when our Delta snipers Shugart and Gordon had their bodies dragged through Mogadishu. Neither do I recall media outrage and condemnation of our Blackwater security contractors being killed, their bodies burned, and hung from a bridge in Fallujah.

“All these over-emotional pundits and armchair quarterbacks need to chill. Does anyone remember the two Soldiers from the 101st Airborne Division who were beheaded and gutted in Iraq?

“The Marines were wrong. Give them a maximum punishment under field grade level Article 15 (non-judicial punishment), place a General Officer level letter of reprimand in their personnel file, and have them in full dress uniform stand before their Battalion, each personally apologize to God, Country, and Corps videotaped and conclude by singing the full US Marine Corps Hymn without a teleprompter.

“As for everyone else, unless you have been shot at by the Taliban, shut your mouth, war is hell."

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/allen-west-marines-incident-shut-your-mouth-war-hell_616699.html

CCIP

01-13-12, 03:29 PM

Agree with him except that last line. One doesn't need to be shot at by the Taliban to have a head on their shoulders and an understanding of human suffering. IMO that's a defense that servicemen just need to stop using - in any case, if they've done right, the righteous service of most of them should speak for itself and shouldn't fear public judgment. That kind of thought isn't befitting a proud soldier, but sounds more like insecure apologetics for what they already know to be morally dubious. Those who say that just need to get some balls and be proud of what they are as human beings, instead of trying to appeal to the uniqueness and incomprehensibility of their experience to everyone who 'hasn't been there'.

Media really could stop sensationalizing this sort of thing, though.

Ducimus

01-13-12, 03:34 PM

It's not my intention to justify their actions, though as a vet, i think I do understand them. . So im going to try and illustrate, so maybe you will understand.

What people fail to realize is that reality is subjective. What is your reality? I'll wager that for most of us on this forum.. our reality is our daily grind. Work, school, spouse, whatever. For most of us, our biggest concern is getting to work on time, or getting the bills paid. Every morning you wake up in a nice warm bed.

For a serviceman overseas (particuarlly in a war), their reality is far far different. Their daily routine consists of all sorts of pain, both mental and physical. Intense emotions that have to be dealt with some how, danger in whatever form it comes in, even body parts, guts, blood, and dismemberment. These are the biggest concerns. In sum, your world, and theirs, are totally different.

If anything, i think these guys deserve sympathy, or empathy, because of what the'll have to live with later. What will later surface and take hold of them. Yeah, i've a pretty good idea.

I don't think people here, have much of an idea of the mental gymnastics one has to do in order to survive and function. Remember this quote from Band of brothers? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKYJLfWqTBY) It is spot F'ing on. Though, ill rephrase it in a less dramatic fashion. The reason why one can't function or cope with whats going on around them, is because they still believe theres a better place to be. There isn't, or at least that's what you tell yourself There's just here and now, and that's all there is ever going to be. One day at at time. Once one accepts that, your able to function much better. What your really doing? Your pulling the emotional plug, and you abandon hope, because it is too painful to hang on to. You refocus on your job, your duty, your mission.

And here's the thing. When you pull your emotional plug, you lose a bit of yourself. There's two parts to a person, the inner and outer person. The outer part is very much formed by the world around you. The inner part, is something you keep hidden. In a harsh world that takes everything away from you, you have to find something that's yours (your inner person), and make an island for yourself. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ARKRz-vbwwI#t=380s) Where you mentally retreat to from time to time. In an odd way, you might feel like a prisoner in your own body. But when you pull the emotional plug because some things are too painful to hang on to, what can happen is your outer self takes over. Your inner self, becomes a shriveled vine. As time goes on, your inner self, that light, that flicker, becomes dimmer and dimmer. Eventually your just a shell.

Now if one could talk to my family, they'll tell you i was emotionally unavailable for YEARS after i left the military. Eventually a reversal of your outer and inner self occurs. Your inner self eventually (hopefully) comes out, and that hard shell gets buried. What scares me, is that hard shell, it's like this evil seed (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMVOkGMKSJs) that gets buried, it never leaves you, and it takes a few years to get over this feeling that your looking in on the society your supposed to rejoin from the outside. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNakt52yFG8) Some of those guys coming home may even come to be resentful, because people here live in their self absorbed bubble with no clue or concept of what's going on in the rest of the world, and are full of their blustering ideas.

edit: I should probably volunteer time at VA counceling center or something. :shifty:

CaptainHaplo

01-13-12, 04:02 PM

:yawn:

Moral outrage over this? Really? The same people who are yelling about the "violation of human dignity" or whatever the heck they are complaining about are the same folks that claim how nutty a guy is for morning the death of his premature child because he should have just chucked it in a bin.

War is hell. Its stressful. These guys decided to blow off a little steam, and send a final "EF You" to the bastards who just a bit before were trying to kill them.

Stop an think for a second... the carcass wasn't a living being - they didn't feel shame or embarrassment because they were DEAD. So who is going to get offended? All the sorry nutcases that already want to kill anyone who isn't toeing the line of their religious nuttiness? Well this is sure gonna be the thing that will send em over the edge? Oh wait - too late, these are the people who strap bombs to themselves and other poor saps and set them off in crowds. This has NO effect on them whatsoever. Lets stop with the bullcrap, ladies and gentlemen....

So why are people complaining? Oh is it because this somehow reflects badly on the US society? If you buy that line of crap, then you do nothing more than demonstrate your looking for reasons to think badly about this country and its people. This was the act one (or possibly a few) folks that had a numbskull moment. If you want to make it bigger than this - then its not because of their actions that you should. If there is any "societal" US indemnity here - its because the powers that are pretending to know what they are doing in running this conflict put men and women at risk in situations where if they survive the conflict, they get into stupid mode sometimes and people wring their hands over it. The only large indemnity here is that if we were serious about WINNING the "war on terror" we wouldn't need to expose nearly the people we do on the ground - meaning we would save the lives of our soldiers and keep incidents like this from happening or to a minimum.

Put the hadwringing away, look at the causes of why stuff happens and address them. Don't want war to desensitize those that fight it? Minimize their exposure to it.

Decide to fight a war, not a half assed "low to mid intensity" action. There is no such thing. If you think there is, then explain that to the families of those killed or wounded.....

CCIP

01-13-12, 04:25 PM

Great post Ducimius, I can certainly understand a lot of that. The only thing that I would point out is that, well, ultimately a lot of it does come down to mechanisms of trauma, and trauma is something that not just servicemen deal with. It's something that a lot of people can relate to and sympathise. The whole human experience is full of it.

Of course most people in their ordinary life would rather be as far away from trauma as possible, and stories about it are unsettling and unpleasant - so instead we get sensationalized crap, of which this sad story is a prime example.

RickC Sniper

01-13-12, 04:45 PM

This has been going on since war has been raged.
It is not trauma. It is about showing that you dominate your enemy.

I do not understand today's soldiers who seem to want to capture and publicize themselves in this manner.

I've seen video of a sniper team shooting in Afghanistan and when the .50 cal round hits several targets body parts were seen flying in all directions.

Why film it? Why publish it?

Ducimus

01-13-12, 04:48 PM

Gallows humor.

Fish

01-13-12, 05:47 PM

Some like the Dutch still have their heads in the sand over thier own nations violent history.

Jop Hueting, perhaps the most famous Dutch soldier of the Indonesian war, who was decorated for the bravery he displayed in an airborne assault on Jakarta, has compared some of the massacres he witnessed to the My Lai incident during the Vietnam War. Mr Hueting, who was also in court as a possible witness for the defence, says the comparison between the Nazi SS and the Dutch forces is appropriate, because 'it is a metaphor for unbelievably violent behaviour by our forces'.

Other nations get involved with torture and brutality too.

The Petrozavodsk resident Novikov, who testified before the Investigation Committee witnessed how, in Camp No. 2 the Finns selected 30 inmates, allegedly war prisoners. They drove them to Loe Tolstoy Street and subjected them there to excruciating torture. They burned the heels of the "prisoners" with a red-hot iron, beat them with rubber clubs and then shot 15 of them. The remaining 15 persons were sent back to Camp No. 2 after 25 days.

-

.

Tu quoque.

Feeling better now poisoning the well (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well) ?

Tribesman

01-13-12, 06:43 PM

Personally, I like what Col. Allen West had to say about it...

Col. Allen West is talking out of his backside.
It is very easy to prove that Col Allen West is most definately talking out of his arse.
I do find it funny that you posted that statement when the widespread outrage those two incidents caused have already been raised in this topic as a measure of the hypocrisy of those defending this action.

Ducimus

01-13-12, 07:20 PM

Col. Allen West is talking out of his backside.
It is very easy to prove that Col Allen West is most definately talking out of his arse.
.

I was wondering, What credentials do you have that say you aren't talking out of your backside?

Tribesman

01-13-12, 08:19 PM

I was wondering, What credentials do you have that say you aren't talking out of your backside?
Well lets see, I didn't have to leave the military after my career was ruined over some torturing of prisoners
So that puts me one up on that muppet.:yeah:
Also I don't campaign for the release of convicted war criminals.
So that puts me two up against that muppet:yeah:
So how do I measure up for credibility against someone who showed they are unable to follow the military laws they signed up to and who campaigns for convicted murderers?
Though of course the main problem seems to be his memory as he has problems recalling some pretty major well publiced events whose condemnations were broadcast all round the world as the leading stories

But to illustrate how much he is talking out of his arse just view the news following the incidents he claims were not condemned, events in Mogadishu were condemned so much it was even rewritten into folklore for Holywood as it made such a good story of rightousness against evil, while even those damn liberals at the BBC in their broadcast on the very day called the Fallujah murders the most extreme barbarism possible and the most brutal atrocity so far in Iraq.
Such outrage explains why widespread support was given to Operation Vigilant Resolve ....until the problems occured over attacking hospitals and the use of phosphorous in built up civilian ares

Sailor Steve

01-13-12, 09:07 PM

It is spot F'ing on.

"EF You"
So now we're trying a different way to play games with the forum rules regarding language?

I can understand you both feel strongly about this subject, but that's no reason to play fast and loose with what is supposed to be a family-friendly forum, including General Topics.

CaptainHaplo

01-13-12, 10:45 PM

No vulgarities, obscenities, hate speech, or foul language. Do not use *******ing w*rds with aster*cks, that's the same thing as vulgar languge. Express yourself with respect to others.

I did not technically use a vulgarity, as the pronunciation of the letter F is not vulgar. At no time did I express myself with disrespect toward another, nor did I star out the word.

However, I do regret pushing the line (if not crossing it in spirit). For that I apologize.

Victor Schutze

01-13-12, 10:58 PM

The soldiers are brain damaged. They commit atrocities or when they go back home, a bunch of them commit suicide or are homeless.

The biggest criminals by far in this story are the western regimes' leaders: they consider the military option first, instead of a last resort. War is THE business model.
This story will end badly for these so called "western democracies". They are broke, therefore they'll go around the planet to take advantage of smaller nations' wealth. The populations of these aggressive western regimes are getting poor and are loosing their civil liberties.

The Taliban will take out NATO on the long run: they beat the British in the past, then the Soviets. Just like the VC in Vietnam, they're "like a fish in the water". They are home, they'll prevail.

Hottentot

01-14-12, 01:31 AM

But to illustrate how much he is talking out of his arse just view the news following the incidents he claims were not condemned, events in Mogadishu were condemned so much it was even rewritten into folklore for Holywood as it made such a good story of rightousness against evil, while even those damn liberals at the BBC in their broadcast on the very day called the Fallujah murders the most extreme barbarism possible and the most brutal atrocity so far in Iraq.

I was thinking along the same lines when I read that. The fact that he can refer to those incidents in rhetorics ("does anyone remember" etc.) should speak for the fact that there was publicity for these incidents. Otherwise it would make no sense to refer to these specific incidents, as I'm sure it's not like they would be the only times the opposing force has done stuff like this. Just the cases that have made it into the conscience of the wider public through the media.

What he seems to expect now is wide public response along the lines "yeah, but they do the same". He writes as if no one remembers those cases when they aren't widely referred to now. Here is where I disagree: they were referred to when they were actual. This case is now actual, hence it will be referred to now. Likewise, when the opposing force commits atrocities in the future, there will be an outrage and I reckon very few people then will say "yeah, but do you remember when those marines..."

And even fewer people will demand it to be said.

01-14-12, 01:55 AM

........ This case is now actual, hence it will be referred to now. Likewise, when the opposing force commits atrocities in the future, there will be an outrage and I reckon very few people then will say "yeah, but do you remember when those marines..."

And even fewer people will demand it to be said.

So what it means is that its just one big pissing contest...nothing more.

1480

01-14-12, 02:00 AM

nikimcbee

01-14-12, 02:02 AM

Tribesman

01-14-12, 05:07 AM

We are bickering over actions committed during "war."

Sounds like Herman Goering could have used that one.:hmmm:
So 1480 are you pro or anti on the rape of Nanking? after all it was just some actions commited during a war, this stuff happens and unless you have been there you shouldn't comment eh?

I will not justify nor vilify their actions.
Well done, however the problem is that many are trying to justify or vilify on it a very partial basis.
There have been many false attempts at moral equivalence. Haplo managed a good one about moral outrage over corpses, unfortunately he failed to note that those who held a different view on that are not the same people he is saying are holding a different view on this, so his attempt easily goes down in flames just like Allen Wests does.

Takeda Shingen

01-14-12, 08:49 AM

We are bickering over actions committed during "war."

A man trying to intentionally kill another man.

Training and a bit o'luck are the only things keeping you from being killed.

Unless you have been through the tunnel, and the subsequent release of the adrenaline high, you know not what you speak.

I will not justify nor vilify their actions.

So as a tax paying citizen of the United States of America, a person who pays these soldiers' salaries, paid for that gun they carry, that uniform they wear and all of the costs of this crazy little 'overseas contingency operation' that their superiors (both military and civilian) seem to be so excited about continuing, I have no place being critical of their decision to not only take part in a questionable act, but to document it so that it may have a chance of being leaked and creating an international incident that serves to undermine one of the primary objectives of said 'overseas contingency operation' while generating increased resentment to American presence in the area as well as risk to our soldiers through the desire for violent reprisals, because I had not served in the armed services.

Thank you. Good to know. I'll just take my seat in the back.

EDIT: Correct 'payed' into 'paid'. Doctorate indeed. :doh:

mookiemookie

01-14-12, 09:03 AM

So as a tax paying citizen of the United States of America, a person who pays these soldiers' salaries, payed for that gun they carry, that uniform they wear and all of the costs of this crazy little 'overseas contingency operation' that their superiors (both military and civilian) seem to be so excited about continuing, I have no place being critical of their decision to not only take part in a questionable act, but to document it so that it may have a chance of being leaked and creating an international incident that serves to undermine one of the primary objectives of said 'overseas contingency operation' while generating increased resentment to American presence in the area as well as risk to our soldiers through the desire for violent reprisals, because I had not served in the armed services.

Thank you. Good to know. I'll just take my seat in the back.

Well said. The "you don't know because you weren't there, maaaaan!" argument is flimsy and a cheap attempt to justify and excuse an act that even the military deems inexcusable.

I hope these jacktards have the book thrown at them. Hearts and minds, indeed. :roll:

War is hell. Its stressful. These guys decided to blow off a little steam Oh those crazy soldiers, always getting up to hijinks! This isn't an intramural volleyball game, or a round of beers and some cards. This is despicable behavior that is specifically prohibited by the military.

Stop an think for a second... the carcass wasn't a living being - they didn't feel shame or embarrassment because they were DEAD. So why not have sex with the corpses? Make lampshades out of the skin? Letter openers out of the arm bones? I mean heck, they're just dead corpses who will never feel it anyways?

So who is going to get offended? All the sorry nutcases that already want to kill anyone who isn't toeing the line of their religious nuttiness? Well this is sure gonna be the thing that will send em over the edge? Oh wait - too late, these are the people who strap bombs to themselves and other poor saps and set them off in crowds. This has NO effect on them whatsoever. Lets stop with the bullcrap, ladies and gentlemen.... Yeah, let's just keep perpetuating the cycle of hate/retaliation/counter-retaliation/war/killing that's got us bogged down and costs us billions in the Middle East. It's garbage like this that puts their lives, their fellow comrades' lives, and the lives of American citizens at risk.

So why are people complaining? Oh is it because this somehow reflects badly on the US society? If you buy that line of crap, then you do nothing more than demonstrate your looking for reasons to think badly about this country and its people. If you feel good or indifferent about it, maybe you're the one who doesn't understand the US or our ideals. You're damn right this is an embarrassment. And so are the people making excuses for the behavior.

Decide to fight a war, not a half assed "low to mid intensity" action. There is no such thing. If you think there is, then explain that to the families of those killed or wounded..... If you think pissing on corpses is the way to fight a war, you've got a very warped sense of the concept.

yubba

01-14-12, 09:29 AM

...says person who claims that USA is becoming socialist. :roll:

Your beloved country is still much more capitalistic than most other countries and Obama's plans are not going to change that (and no I don't agree all of them). Could you please help me to understand you (instead of getting angry) by explaining what the heck you mean with socialism?
Heck china is more capitalistic than us, our leaders in our government veiw the european model is the way to go, they think they can make it work but they have already ran out of everybodies elses money, that means they have failed, so if we end up like greece, italy, and france our leaders are going to get p'd on too, our national debt is bigger than our GDP and if we are not going down the road to socalism then where are we going ?????? and by the way croney capitalism is socalism. So if you are consitutionally impared The Marines have already shown what they will do to you, what will the unemployment numbers look like when all those troops come home and how many of them are going to end up homeless, you folks are missing the big picture. And to comment on the post bellow if you don't like what goes on in war don't have any, it is simple as that.

soopaman2

01-14-12, 10:39 AM

Just for future references, croney capitalism is closer to fascism than socialism.

Alot of people love to throw around socialist without knowing fully what it is.

Fascism is the far right by the way... Ask Fox news, Rupert will tell you it's OK and Obama and them dang nabbit socialists is to blame for everything from the abolition of Slavery to the Alien invasion of 2135 (Yeah, just watch, it will happen, trust me, I know:yep:)

And China at least executes it's CEOs for crimes committed, ours get bonuses.

Catfish

01-14-12, 10:44 AM

Just for future references, croney capitalism is closer to fascism than socialism.

Alot of people love to throw around socialist without knowing fully what it is. Fascism is the far right by the way...

[...]

And China at least executes it's CEOs for crimes committed, ours get bonuses.

^This.

On topic:
Special units are one thing, and they may choose all kinds of tactics and ideas to accomplish a mission, "get the job done".
Despite that, i guess even the SS would not have been found urinating on enemies' corpses, this is indeed very low.
Those were Marines, i wonder which part of "Strength and Honor" they did not understand ?

But what i really ask myself is "who was so dumb to film that ?"

soopaman2

01-14-12, 11:07 AM

But what i really ask myself is "who was so dumb to film that ?"

A moron not paying attention to how politically correct this war has been.

Utterly foolish. But to them it was justice, even funny. As it would have been to me...How many deaths to these un-uniformed cowards have they seen? How many of their friends went back with flags draped over their caskets.

My cousin in Iraq was not allowed to enter a mosque when insurgents ran in there to hide after having hell rained on their heads from the freshly IED'd convoy. And to make it even worse they put an RPG into a water truck, that was meant for their people.

This story sticks with me the most as to why it has taken this long for zero results. There is no winning hearts and minds with people who are willing to die to kill in the name of God.

I am also sick of the villifying of the United States, war is disgusting, it is not pretty, they don't sit down and play with Pokemon cards or play Hello Kitty, they freaking shoot people. I am so sick of the self righteous crap.

We are no less or no more brutal than any other nation. Our freedom of the press just makes it harder to hide it than others.

My uncle saw way worse in the Nam. He is disgusted by this "My lil Pony" warfare too.

yubba

01-14-12, 11:07 AM

All these ism's look the same, they end up with a very high body count, except capitalism and americanism I don't recall us americans lining up countless people along a ditch and gunning them down. I'm sitting across from a gunshop as we speak man that guy has been busy he's got a regular gold mine there, and a freind of mine does commerical reloads they can't keep up with the demand for ammo, people are p'd and scared so if something goes down it will be bloody, so I guess you better know what side of the constitution you stand.

Hottentot

01-14-12, 11:27 AM

Alot of people love to throw around socialist without knowing fully what it is.

Goes for any ideology really. Communism/Socialism/Marxism/other way of saying "yooboo is stoopid" just seem to be the most prelevant on this forum.

Takeda Shingen

01-14-12, 11:33 AM

I don't recall us americans lining up countless people along a ditch and gunning them down.

No, we just took their land and let famine and disease do the dirty work. Our hands are by no means clean. Of course, none of this really has anything to do with the topic at hand.

mookiemookie

01-14-12, 11:42 AM

I don't recall us americans lining up countless people along a ditch and gunning them down.

Chenogne

Sailor Steve

01-14-12, 12:14 PM

AWe are no less or no more brutal than any other nation. Our freedom of the press just makes it harder to hide it than others.
And that's why we insist on having it. Yes, soldiers at war lose sight of their own humanity, and that of the enemy. Incidents like this will happen, and it's our job to make sure that we do villify it while others openly applaud their own peoples' actions. Perhaps it's true that we have no moral superiority, but what sets us apart is that we at least try. I'm not speaking of Americans here, but of everyone who tries to hold himself to a higher standard.

Chenogne
Well, yeah, but, well, y'see, that was different. :nope:

soopaman2

01-14-12, 12:36 PM

And that's why we insist on having it. Yes, soldiers at war lose sight of their own humanity, and that of the enemy. Incidents like this will happen, and it's our job to make sure that we do villify it while others openly applaud their own peoples' actions. Perhaps it's true that we have no moral superiority, but what sets us apart is that we at least try. I'm not speaking of Americans here, but of everyone who tries to hold himself to a higher standard.

I wasn't condoning it, but I am not condemning it either.

Yes we are better than those people, and should demonstrate our superiority in actions and honor, despite their lack of honor.

I am just annoyed we have to "put on a show" for the world stage. Instead of concentrating on effective warfare where the goal is to win...Not just "hang in there"

We lost our balls since WW2. We (allies) turned Tokyo and Dresden into an ashpile to make our point.

I am not heartless, but less coalition lives would have been lost if the rules of engagement weren't so complex.

These mens accomplishments on the battlefield are not tarnished in my eyes.

mookiemookie

01-14-12, 01:42 PM

Instead of concentrating on effective warfare where the goal is to win...Not just "hang in there"

I don't understand why people keep bringing this "fight a hard war" idea into it. It has absolutely nothing to do with the issue at hand and it only serves to muddy the waters. Fighting an effective war can be done without morons like this pulling frat house stunts. There's no military value to be gained by peeing on your fallen enemy.

Takeda Shingen

01-14-12, 01:45 PM

There's no military value to be gained by peeing on your fallen enemy.

Seriously. You'd think that we were calling into question some secret weapon or technique on the battlefield. It's as though urinating on your dead enemy in front of the cameras is of some great strategic value, and that by disallowing this sort of behavior we will hinder our forces in the field. :doh:

Platapus

01-14-12, 02:05 PM

I believe it was Winston Churchill who said

We shall go on to the end, we shall pee on them in France,
we shall pee on them on the seas and oceans,
we shall pee on them with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our Island, whatever the cost may be,
we shall pee on them on the beaches,
we shall pee on them on the landing grounds,
we shall pee on them in the fields and in the streets,
we shall pee on them in the hills;"

I could be wrong. Sometimes it was hard to understand Winnie. :D

Dowly

01-14-12, 02:06 PM

I have to say, that all the talk about "fighting a brutal war" etc. doesn't really apply here. Someone already mentioned it (think it was CCIP) that it isn't war in Afghanistan. The fighting isn't against a country, but a "small" part of extremists. Terror tactics don't work in this case, they just cause anger in the general populace and in the worst case drive some of them to the Taliban and take up arms against the west.

The "war" in Afghanistan (and Iraq) is about getting rid of the bad apples and showing the ordinary people that "Hey, we're the good guys, you should be like us!", which is hampered by these kind of actions.

Also, Colonel West's comparisations to what the enemy has done is just silly. "We can do it, because they did it too!!" isn't a very good excuse.

Just my opinion, no need to get butthurt about it or anything. ;)

Catfish

01-14-12, 02:29 PM

On topic:

"You know... There is always people who feel the need to make the war more horrible than it is. "

Off topic re Platapus:
I'd say after declaring war to Germany, Mr Churchill would have royally peed himself without the help of the US :O:
;)

CaptainHaplo

01-14-12, 02:36 PM

Oh those crazy soldiers, always getting up to hijinks! This isn't an intramural volleyball game, or a round of beers and some cards. This is despicable behavior that is specifically prohibited by the military.

Yes it is, and they will should be punished by the rules of the military and that should be that - making a OH NOEZ OMG national topic out of it isn't called for.

So why not have sex with the corpses? Make lampshades out of the skin? Letter openers out of the arm bones? I mean heck, they're just dead corpses who will never feel it anyways

The actions (other than necrophylia) you describe above take a significant amount of time, thought and effort. Necro isn't about disrespecting the dead person, which was the PURPOSE here. There is a difference between a adrenine charged, I just finished getting shot at by this sorry so n so action meant to release the tension, and the intentional destruction of a body for gain, long term sadistic pleasure, etc. Again, your comparing apples to oranges.

Yeah, let's just keep perpetuating the cycle of hate/
retaliation/counter-retaliation/war/killing that's got us bogged down and costs us billions in the Middle East. It's garbage like this that puts their lives, their fellow comrades' lives, and the lives of American citizens at risk.

"Stop perpetuating the hate".... To do that, this country and the rest of the world will have to adopt the way of life required by Islamic Extremists. Anything else will be insufficient. Your smart enough to realize that. And you know that isn't going to happen. So they are going to "hate" us, they are going to try and kill us, until we either kill them or give up and do what they want. This "if we just stopped what we do they would like us" bullcrap is not only inaccurate, its has no realistic place in the discussion. Try something that applies, and we can discuss it, but wishing for pie in the sky, everyone making nice just isn't going to happen - because of their views and regardless of our actions (barring full capitulation). Its not a cycle of hate - its ideological hate.

If you feel good or indifferent about it, maybe you're the one who doesn't understand the US or our ideals. You're damn right this is an embarrassment. And so are the people making excuses for the behavior.

I am glad you used the word maybe. I understand our ideals, and I understand that this is not something we can tolerate. That is why there are regulations against such actions. The thing is, I also understand the psychological foundations that drive people to act like that. If you haven't ever been in that situation, you cannot fully comprehend it. However, its like getting in a bad car accident that could have killed you. Your filled with adreniline. First your just glad your ok, Then you check on others. Then, with no othe outlet, you get angry - why didn't you get stopped in time, why did that other person not look, what kind of idiot does X an causes a wreck, etc. Its part of the way the human body and psyche work. It doesn't happen to everyone - but it does happen to some. In this case, the person or people involved were suffering from a very real, albiet hopefully temporary, type of PTSD. While that doesn't make the behavior OK - it also doesn't indemnify the entire US society, it doesn't piss off islamic extremist to suddenly want to kill us when they didn't want to before. It doesn't rise to a story repeated ad naseum by news channels, and shouldn't be used by those in media to grind their anti-military ax - which is what is happening. I am indifferent - because I know it happens, I understand WHY it happens, and I am confident that the ones responsible will be held accountable to the standards in place. If I didn't care that there were standards - there would be a problem. But I am glad they are there. Still - is it the OMGOOHHNOOEEEZZWEEEEZBHORRIBIBLEANDDAMILITARYSUXOR S that so many people are making it? No.... its not.

If you think pissing on corpses is the way to fight a war, you've got a very warped sense of the concept.

At no point have I ever said that pissing on corpses is a way to fight a war. You know that - your simply making stuff up to try and bolster your arguement. Show me where I said it. Total strawman.

The way to fight a war is to kill the other guy with a minimum of exposure to your own forces. Kill him with overwhelming force. As I said in an early post - you want to say how horrible this thing is - a large modicum of blame is at the feet of those that don't choose to fight a war to win it.....

Dowly

01-14-12, 02:40 PM

I'd say after declaring war to Germany, Mr Churchill would have royally peed himself without the help of the US :O:
;)

And US would've royally peed himself without the help of Russia and so on.

Joint effort. :salute:

yubba

01-14-12, 05:10 PM

No, we just took their land and let famine and disease do the dirty work. Our hands are by no means clean. Of course, none of this really has anything to do with the topic at hand.
that was over a hundred fifty years ago you need to get over that, how about we start back 80 years when we where a little more civilized do tell me how many millions of untolled lives have been snuffed out over ism's, with communism being one the biggest culbrits.

Takeda Shingen

01-14-12, 05:15 PM

that was over a hundred fifty years ago you need to get over that, how about we start back 80 years when we where a little more civilized do tell me how many millions of untolled lives have been snuffed out over ism's

There isn't a statute of limitations on national disgrace, especially when used to counter your own sweeping statement that America is without sin in regards to attrocities. Also, it is interesting that you are citing the beginnings of 'civilized' society to be around 80 years ago, especially given that the 20th Century was the most violent 100 years in recorded history.

Sailor Steve

01-14-12, 05:17 PM

I wasn't condoning it, but I am not condemning it either.
I was only praising Freedom of the Press in this matter.

I believe it was Winston Churchill who said
I believe I find your belief to be unbelievable. :D

Skybird

01-14-12, 05:18 PM

Some people think it is possible to train hard without sweating. Walking long without feet stinking. Or fighting a war without blood. They would love to send their troops in dinner jackets, with perfect hair and perfect skin teint. And at the olympic games, the winner claims gold when passing the finishing line first, smiling, easy, no sign of effort or physical exhaustion, and please - no sweat! Make it look easy!

Acts like this discussed here have no military value - but nobody has claimed that the act was done in order to fulfill any military value. It's just that war - and Afghanistan is a war, no matter what some sweat-less athletes and blood-less wannabe-warriors say - not only is an issue assessed by ration, but also one that touches upon the most animalistic level in man, because it'S inherent extremism: the confrontation with life and death, killing and getting killed. This brings out the real stuff man is made of. And that stuff is not only humane noblesse and shining idealism, but also the carnivor's love for fresh meat and sweet blood.

War is not defined by bureaucratic definitions written on papers at an office desk. War is made by what is being done in war in a determined attempt to annihilate the enemy, his fighters, his resources, his free will, his intention and motivation. Some of what I read here, really is out of touch with reality, is naive, even infantile. And "infantile" is a term that often comes to my mind when thinking about the state of this thing called "Zeitgeist". We seem to have a culture that all too often pulls down any unwanted problems to a level of Teletubbies.

The war in Afghanistan got lost. And that is because too long too many people did not want to realise that it is a war.

WE LOST.

We lost it already in 2002, and since then we lose it every day. We wallow in our defeat, and talk it nice. We gloss over our lack of determination to do what was needed to do in order to destroy the enemy. So to speak, instead of opening all gates of hell, we sat down by the camp fire and were humming tunes, holding each other's hands to make the darkness going away.

Now contemplate a while on what our mental attitude towards the operation has to do with our failure. It is simple. We were too civilised.

When you go to war, then go all the way. This - or don't start in the first. But when you go, then be sure you understand what that means. And that it brings out the worst in man, the blood-loving beast, is one part of that. Soldiers peeing on dead meat is one symptom of that.

And in your soul, even when you win, this victorious war comes at a cost for you.

Tribesman

01-15-12, 04:22 AM

Stop perpetuating the hate".... To do that, this country and the rest of the world will have to adopt the way of life required by Islamic Extremists.
No Haplo, to do that you have to stop handing the nutcases propoganda.
Time and again the "reasons" for fighting these scum are given, again and again examples of why they are scum are set out.
Yet again and again people get exposed acting as scum...and the reaction....oh but those others are scum too so our scum isn't really as bad as those scum anyways because theirs do the things which are nasty while our scum only do things that are nasty.

I see one part of your problem, you have a very bad approach, it is a common one though.
In regards to your ...."Oh is it because this somehow reflects badly on the US society?".....you create a classic fallacy. It reflects badly regardless of if its the US or Belgium, doubtless there are those who would condemn Belgium no matter what , just as there are those who would defend Belgium.
But you cannot simply write of all criticism like that, which is why Col West was such a pillock as he plainly built a false arguement to do just that.
However on the opposite side it is perfectly valid to knock down all attempts at justification of those who justify these actions that they would condemn if it was the otherside doing it....which pretty much covers all of the "but the Taliban do....." arguements that have been put forward.

Yubba delivers
do tell me how many millions of untolled lives have been snuffed out over ism's
I think we will have to ask the campagnologists for that answer.
I'm sitting across from a gunshop as we speak man that guy has been busy he's got a regular gold mine there, and a freind of mine does commerical reloads they can't keep up with the demand for ammo, people are p'd and scared so if something goes down it will be bloody, so I guess you better know what side of the constitution you stand.
Hold on I thought our alien overlords were bullet proof, and the people that wrote the constitution were really Reptilians.

Catfish

01-15-12, 07:26 AM

Hello,
this is completely off topic i know, but this is the second time i hear something about conspiracies and "reptilians" ? What .. ? :hmmm:

Tribesman

01-15-12, 08:12 AM

Well catfish, you need to understand about aliens and conspiracies that are really honestly as true as I am riding this elephant, and hidden planets that are going to eat us and some rather well known well publicised but apparently hidden secret telescopes guarded by penguins that yubba will tell you you paid for.
So come the revolution people will have bullets because he seen some people buying them and then errrr...PLANET X will arrive and its game over man:rotfl2:

Ducimus

01-16-12, 01:08 PM

Well lets see, I didn't have to leave the military after my career was ruined over some torturing of prisoners
So that puts me one up on that muppet.:yeah:

Did you even serve in ANY military at all ? I'm willing to bet the answer is no.

Also I don't campaign for the release of convicted war criminals.
So that puts me two up against that muppet:yeah:

Posting crap on an internet forum is worth the paper its printed on. So your lack of "campaign" is just more talk without substance or anything to back it up with.

In sum, your just some dude on the internet with an opinion, talking out of his ass, and posting garbage that is worth the paper its' printed on... . muppet.

Im not even gonna bother examining the rest of your post. If you have an opinion, thats all well and good, but don't come off like your not talking out of your ass. If you haven 't walked the walk, don't talk the talk.

01-16-12, 01:44 PM

Did you even serve in ANY military at all ? I'm willing to bet the answer is no.

Posting crap on an internet forum is worth the paper its printed on. So your lack of "campaign" is just more talk without substance or anything to back it up with.

In sum, your just some dude on the internet with an opinion, talking out of his ass, and posting garbage that is worth the paper its' printed on... . muppet.

Im not even gonna bother examining the rest of your post. If you have an opinion, thats all well and good, but don't come off like your not talking out of your ass. If you haven 't walked the walk, don't talk the talk.

Its true what you say but this sort of behavior should not be encouraged.
In particular uploading this stuff on YouTube.
Look at pissing game it caused....actually its silly.

To put it simply...because of vast range of characters that serve in the army and nature of the job lines need to drown for the sake of the cause.

Ducimus

01-16-12, 02:02 PM

Hottentot

01-16-12, 02:14 PM

What i take issue with, is the moral crusaders who seem to think that they'd never do anything similar; when in all actuality, they really don't know what they're capable of, because they haven't lived in the same world, dealing with the same realities.

While it's just as possible that the guys who do things like these are morons, and unfortunately wearing an uniform hasn't made them immune to being the morons and doing the moronic things they would do without the uniform too.

I have spoken for the conditions causing things earlier in this thread and in a way agree with you, but I still don't see how they are above criticism, when their fellow servicemen don't seem to do stuff like this all the time.

soopaman2

01-16-12, 02:55 PM

Im not condoning or encouraging that behavior, though i DO understand where it comes from and how it manifests. What i take issue with, is the moral crusaders who seem to think that they'd never do anything similar; when in all actuality, they really don't know what they're capable of, because they haven't lived in the same world, dealing with the same realities.

The moral crusaders is my anger with it. I come from a military family, had it not been for a badly treated broken pelvis when I was 14, I would have been a Marine myself.

You truly do not know the horrors of warfare until you see it, it is so easy to sit outside and throw moral rocks, and play Monday morning quarterback to situations that would make most moralists curl up in a fetal position and cry.

I bet it even served as a morale booster for those men. As well it should have. Why should we have respect for a faceless, un-uniformed, hiding amongst civilians like cowards.

Set off an IED then run away and hide in your house with your wife and kids as morality shields, using our own "hearts and minds" bullcrap against us.

I never see no mentions of Arab sniper films killing Brits and Americans, I suppose that is hunky dory?

I feel no pity. I would have decapitated them, filmed it, and put it on liveleak like they do to our journalists, and other civilians they catch over there.

mookiemookie

01-16-12, 03:09 PM

I feel no pity. I would have decapitated them, filmed it, and put it on liveleak like they do to our journalists, and other civilians they catch over there.

"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."
-Friedrich Nietzsche

soopaman2

01-16-12, 03:17 PM

"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."
-Friedrich Nietzsche

I will admit there is a bit of personal resentment behind my opinions, like a personal loss kinda thing.
They fight like cowards, using our own Rules of Engagement, and bleeding heart press against us.
I am not saying my thinking is right (and make no argument that it is right). I am just a fight fire with with a nuke kinda guy.

I know I am flawed.

But your quote is relevant, and made me feel slightly guilty for my thinking.

Skybird

01-16-12, 03:25 PM

"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."
-Friedrich Nietzsche

Heee...! :stare:

I am the guy quoting Nietzsche on this board...! :shifty:

:O:

Takeda Shingen

01-16-12, 03:32 PM

The moral crusaders is my anger with it. I come from a military family, had it not been for a badly treated broken pelvis when I was 14, I would have been a Marine myself.

You truly do not know the horrors of warfare until you see it, it is so easy to sit outside and throw moral rocks, and play Monday morning quarterback to situations that would make most moralists curl up in a fetal position and cry.

I bet it even served as a morale booster for those men. As well it should have. Why should we have respect for a faceless, un-uniformed, hiding amongst civilians like cowards.

Set off an IED then run away and hide in your house with your wife and kids as morality shields, using our own "hearts and minds" bullcrap against us.

I never see no mentions of Arab sniper films killing Brits and Americans, I suppose that is hunky dory?

I feel no pity. I would have decapitated them, filmed it, and put it on liveleak like they do to our journalists, and other civilians they catch over there.

I understand everything that you and Ducimus are saying. Our troops are doing a very difficult job under great amounts of stress and at great risk to personal life. However, this action is resulting in the opposite of what we want.

We, as a nation, want these people to leave us alone. We want them to police themselves in what ultimately amounts to our best interest. I, personally, want these troops home. I want to be rid of our involvement in this region and I want our nation safe. I bet that a large number of the people on this forum want the same thing. These marines may be blowing off steam. They may be symbolically showing disdain for an enemy that is responsible for a litany of egregious acts. At the same time, the act works contrary to the above stated goals.

By inflaming the populace, we only ensure our continued involvement in this region. The only two things that this guarantees is the continued threat to the American homeland and the certainty of deaths of American servicemen (and women). It is akin to (and please forgive the analogy) a football player doing a crazy and excessive touchdown dance after scoring. You already have your points; just walk away and keep the game in your favor.

This isn't about winning hearts and minds. I do not care if the Afghani people like us. I want two things--our homeland safe and our troops home. Urinating on the enemy in front of the cameras only provides the opposite. And yes, it is my right to complain about it. Our constituion states that the military arm is answerable to the civilian populace. I know that many on this forum find this distasteful, but I thank the heavens that we live in such a society.

CCIP

01-16-12, 03:55 PM

I understand everything that you and Ducimus are saying. Our troops are doing a very difficult job under great amounts of stress and at great risk to personal life. However, this action is resulting in the opposite of what we want.

We, as a nation, want these people to leave us alone. We want them to police themselves in what ultimately amounts to our best interest. I, personally, want these troops home. I want to be rid of our involvement in this region and I want our nation safe. I bet that a large number of the people on this forum want the same thing. These marines may be blowing off steam. They may be symbolically showing disdain for an enemy that is responsible for a litany of egregious acts. At the same time, the act works contrary to the above stated goals.

By inflaming the populace, we only ensure our continued involvement in this region. The only two things that this guarantees is the continued threat to the American homeland and the certainty of deaths of American servicemen (and women). It is akin to (and please forgive the analogy) a football player doing a crazy and excessive touchdown dance after scoring. You already have your points; just walk away and keep the game in your favor.

This isn't about winning hearts and minds. I do not care if the Afghani people like us. I want two things--our homeland safe and our troops home. Urinating on the enemy in front of the cameras only provides the opposite. And yes, it is my right to complain about it. Our constituion states that the military arm is answerable to the civilian populace. I know that many on this forum find this distasteful, but I thank the heavens that we live in such a society.

To add a different but parallel perspective to that: these guys are volunteers and professionals, trained and commanded ultimately by elected officials, whose ultimate bosses are the electorate; they are paid by taxpayer money, and their presence in the combat theater is on behalf of international treaties.

Therefore, all of this moral posturing of "you have to be there" is an excuse - and an understandable one - but is neither a true justification nor an acceptable absolution of guilt. I'll say it again: all of this "you haven't served, you don't know anything" is crap - it takes a level of understanding and common experience to sympathise, but lack of this common experience does not remove the right to critique. Saying that it does is rhetorical baloney. You bet any Joe and Mary can question and criticize these guys, because they are there voluntarily and on behalf of everybody, accountable to democratic leadership, paid by taxpayer dollars, and responsible to international organizations which have set rules and goals for this mission, i.e. pretty much everybody in the whole darn civilized world.

As a US soldier in Afghanistan, you are not some lost soul in a dark place, no matter how you feel about it when you're there. You are a volunteer who signed up and who is there on a stabilization mission on behalf of several international organizations that represent hundreds of millions of people, including both US citizens, Europeans, and of course Afghans. You are responsible to these people in the end. They have a right to be displeased with the job you do. End of story.

01-16-12, 04:12 PM

As a US soldier in Afghanistan, you are not some lost soul in a dark place. You are a volunteer who signed up and who is there on a stabilization mission on behalf of several international organizations that represent hundreds of millions of people, including both US citizens, Europeans, and of course Afghans. You are responsible to these people in the end. They have a right to be displeased with the job you do. End of story.

Thats true and i'm pretty sure there is a lot of political crap behind this criticism-shaping public opinion stuff.
People with all kind of agendas being horrified and outraged.
At the end of the day those solders pissed on DEAD Taliban scumbags. It is stupid as disgraceful(including the part of uploading this)but it can be hardly called atrocity...just politics

soopaman2

01-16-12, 04:15 PM

But when you are told you are coming home from Iraq for good ( after getting a purple heart), to your families, great service, good job, Oh, Obama wants to step up Afghanistan troop counts, guess what?

Funerals at Arlington are quite majestic and full of honor and patriotism, but just as sad. No medals for dying... Just a folded up flag, and the unsincere (bullcrap died as a hero) letter from some stuffy high officer.

I am thinking about the welfare of my own people. They can go fiddle with themselves as far as I am concerned.

Americans are sleeping in thier cars, or under boardwalks, and eating out of garbage cans.

America first.

CCIP

01-16-12, 04:23 PM

Like everything else, of course it's not free from politics, no question about that. On the other hand, you constantly have to ask on whose behalf and why they are doing this. Last I checked, none of the mandates in international law or mission statements by US military officials state anything about humiliating the Taliban or abusing corpses. The issue has not been discussed and put up on vote, but by the same token you can't take that as a sign of approval. If someone is personally offended that soldiers working on his/her behalf (and the troops here inevitably are working on behalf of both US and international public) are urinating on corpses, then they are right and the soldiers are wrong. The soldiers aren't there for themselves.

A (banal and horrible, I know) comparison might be: if you're working at a store and a shoplifter grabs something, punches you and runs away - you chase him down, beat him up, swear and spit on him in full view of your customers, you might not be morally wrong in someone's understanding because the shoplifter (like the Taliban) is a scumbag. But when the store's customers are horrified and the boss thinks that you've done something that damages the store's reputation and deters customers, the boss and the customers are right, you are wrong, and yes - you get fired, rightly and justly. It doesn't matter if you stood to lose more than your customers, and it doesn't matter whether your boss wasn't even there. Because ultimately that wasn't in your job description, was not what the customers came to the store for, and was not what you were hired for. The right thing to do would've been to restrain the shoplifter calmly and call police.

This is not about scumbags, and this is not about you. This is about a job that you were trusted with by the public. If the public explicitly gave you approval to go and pee on the Taliban, fine. If they didn't, you don't. That's how a military is supposed to work for a democratic state and the rule of international law. Else what you're advocating is neither democratic nor respective of international law and human rights, and may as well be baloney. Which is where, by the way, we come to my usual issue with some arguments on this forum - some people have an awfully easy time advocating selective use of democracy and human rights when convenient for them, and their disposal when inconvenient. Which is about the same as discrediting the very basis of their life and liberty altogether.

soopaman2

01-16-12, 04:36 PM

CCIP sir.

I am not condoning nor condemning.
I understand what that was about.

No it is not right, especially when we (as a nation) is trying to take the moral high ground.

I was simply trying to convey the feelings of a minority of grunts who have become disheartened by this cause.

I see your points, and know deep down inside we should always try to better than them. But something inside me says these wars would have been shorter had it not been for morals and feelings to take precedence over strategy and then end goal.
I am not a savage, I am just war weary.

01-16-12, 04:43 PM

This is not about scumbags, and this is not about you. This is about a job that you were trusted with by the public. If the public explicitly gave you approval to go and pee on the Taliban, fine. If they didn't, you don't. That's how a military is supposed to work for a democratic state and the rule of international law.

Yeah...and its all about magnifying this stuff totally out proportions.
(i don't need lectures about role of military in democratic state since i did my years including yearly reserve service for past years and i'm very liberal and democratic kind of guy-when i want to:03:)

By sending so many 18 years old kids to fight war like the one in Afghanistan you can expect some dumb stuff to take place for sure-lets hope its worst of it....
I don't think that crucifying the solders and putting morality of US military into question over this due to partisan politics is right thing to do.
While criticism and drawing lines is in place.

CCIP

01-16-12, 04:45 PM

Ducimus

01-16-12, 04:55 PM

It just occured to me, that I'm really lucky. I've done a lot of stupid crap when i was in, and im lucky in the regards that at the time of my service (92 to 99), nobody had cellphones or mini video recorders on them. They just weren't around like they are now. Nowadays, if you do stupid crap, some schmuck will film it. If the things i, or my comrades did was recorded, we'd have everyone from PETA to OSHA, to Greenpeace, to whatever 3rd world Humanitarian aid organizations you could think of screaming bloody murder.

Doing stupid crap is part and parcel of being overseas but for gods sake, don't film it!

soopaman2

01-16-12, 04:58 PM

I don't want to attack anyone on this either, so please don't take me as overly-righteous, I would just like to see a little more sanity and a little less 'sacred cows' - this shouldn't be a public scandal, but it should be a public issue to learn a lesson from. I really do sympathise with the grunts as well, and am wary of the politics of those who attack this case - it really is a classic case of scapegoating more than it is a genuine moral outrage. Sadly even the military establishment is in on that. Just that in the end, I think it's unfair to say that the public has no say in this and that we shouldn't stand for rights and ideals.

I'd rather people learn a lesson from this and move on to figuring out exactly what this war is really about, what everybody is trying to achieve, and how this can be done without compromising the foundations on which US and other international forces are there in the first place.

I love our press. Can you imagine if we were chinese? We would never ever see this news.

I don't see you as righteous, simply presenting the other side of the coin. That is what makes us great.:woot:

My philosophy is like the old Chris Rock joke about OJ. I edited the cuss in parenthesis.

'So you gotta look at OJ's situation. He's paying $25,000 a month in alimony, got a another man driving around in his car and (having sexual relations) his wife in a house he's still paying the mortgage on. Now I'm not saying he should have killed her... but I understand.'

And I feel alot of Americans do not hate, nor love the actions of these men. We are just tired of it.

Honestly it is a small isolated case, a situation where the minority is representing the majority, and unfair to the rest.

Tribesman

01-16-12, 04:59 PM

Did you even serve in ANY military at all ? I'm willing to bet the answer is no.

As I have said before, if people want to sign their lives to the whim of some politician that is their problem.
You might have a point if you could show any decent politicians out there who would decide who I should fight and what I should die for....but I doubt you can find a single one.
Serving in the military dioes not make you somehow special and does not make your comments any more valid...especially in this case where they make no sense and in fact fly in the face of that which you are supposed to represent

Posting crap on an internet forum is worth the paper its printed on.
Does not compute, is that an Amish internet you are using?

So your lack of "campaign" is just more talk without substance or anything to back it up with.

The words speak, the fact that you are unable to deal with them speaks about you and your opinion...and it doesn't say very nice things.

In sum, your just some dude on the internet with an opinion, talking out of his ass, and posting garbage that is worth the paper its' printed on... . muppet.

You are the muppet I am afraid, you are defending something you simply cannot defend and defending comments that make no sense.

Im not even gonna bother examining the rest of your post
No need, you need to examine your own mind first as it is clearly rattling on empty.

If you haven 't walked the walk, don't talk the talk.
You sound exactly like that pillock West, just out of curiousity did your career get ruined by war crimes too, is that why you are so sensitive?

What i take issue with, is the moral crusaders who seem to think that they'd never do anything similar; when in all actuality, they really don't know what they're capable of, because they haven't lived in the same world, dealing with the same realities.
That is where you are really going wrong, you havn't got the faintest idea what you are talking about, you are just as blind and one dimensional as West is.
Why do you hate freedom:har::har::har::har::har:

TLAM Strike

01-16-12, 06:35 PM

Best comment I've come across reading the news reports:

There is a certain demographic of men in San Francisco who would PAY for that kind of treatment from a handsome virile marine.

soopaman2

01-16-12, 06:53 PM

Best comment I've come across reading the news reports:

You mean this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urolagnia

That is not just confined to San Fran, nor gay men as implied.

Look up Jim Norton (of Opie and Anthony radio show fame) he is straight as an arrow and pays hookers to make bodily movements on him. He even admits to it proudly, multiple times over many years he admitted it.

nikimcbee

01-16-12, 07:34 PM

Best comment I've come across reading the news reports:

You mean Tiger Woods?:o

soopaman2

01-16-12, 08:37 PM

Hate America all you want. But do not hate us as much as you hate Serbia (Ethnic cleansing) or Russia ( the handling of Chechnya) Or hitler led Germany for 6 million jews, or Stalins Russia for 20 million citizens, America and its Japanese internment (concentration) camps.

We all have our demons, we all have our bad apples.

No nation in this world can ever prove higher moral ground.

Instead of defending this crap, I will ask someone else to do better.

No one can, humans are flawed. No matter the nationality.

Our problems is with nationality. beyond that we are all the same...

The ultimate bad guy to us all is simply xenophobia...In other words it is our problems, not anyone elses.

Hottentot

01-17-12, 01:15 AM

Hate America all you want.

When did this come into the equation?

Tribesman

01-17-12, 03:53 AM

When did this come into the equation?
When their arguements couldn't stand.

@ Soopaman, condemn actions that are wrong no matter which side is doing them.
It really is that simple.
Problems arise when people defend things they know they cannot really defend and get more agitated the more they paint themselves into a corner. that is when they end up like Col West with his "shut up while I talk nonsense" line of "thought" ....which Ducimus then adopted.

Skybird

01-17-12, 05:51 AM

Our problems is with nationality. beyond that we are all the same...

Having seen a tiny bit more of the world than just germany or Europe, I must say that this simply is wrong. I would agree only to one of two statements, or both: most people like sex, and all people seek to be happy and avoid pain. But what happiness is, and how to acchieve that - there people already start to vary widely even when living in same material or cultural settings, not to mention totally different places. Also, people are focussing on different things, for different reasons, as goals of their livves, and same reasons do not lead to same things.

Single people compared, they are not all the same. I even claim they are not even all of same value. And different cultures also are not all the same, nor are they of same developement level, nor are they of same value.

We are not all the same even when most of us swim in the same direction like the rest of the swarm. Not at all.

"We are all the same" - a simple slogan to express desire for a simplistic, non-complex, conflict-free, good-by-its-very-essence schöne, heile Welt, without any claws and teeth. A petting zoo.

Catfish

01-19-12, 06:42 AM

Jimbuna

01-19-12, 07:16 AM

I personally found that sheep footage disturbing :nope:

Skybird

01-19-12, 07:49 AM

" ... "We are all the same" - a simple slogan to express desire for a simplistic, non-complex, conflict-free, good-by-its-very-essence schöne, heile Welt, without any claws and teeth. A petting zoo. ..."

Still, there are things that are clearly, and plain wrong. For all people, worldwide. From Guantanamo to those videos of US soldiers doing strange things to say at least, e.g. those eight men and a sheep (Very bad content :nope: )
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=4c2_1320671022
Is this a cultural thing ? How are they better than other people ?
Really, i wonder what is going on in their minds ?? :down:
That is sick, and if identified and caught they should get fired from the army, without honours. They should also serve prison time for violation of anmial protection rules and should be banned for lifetime to ever own or buy or get access to firearms. That people with such underdeveloped character have access to weapons, is a perspective that worries me.

However, I did not imply that every Western soldier "naturally" is more worth or is better by character than any piecemof dirt from anywhere in the world. But in general I implied that Wetsenr culture with its unpreceden ted ammount of scientific and tehcnolgocial innovation and liberties and law&order and humane basic order is better and of more value than most others there are.

The scumbags in that video are not representing the values and basic mindset of our culture. They are violating it.

I also do not want to say that there are not inherent signs of fouling and rotting in our culture. It is rotting, from within, obviously. But again, that does not speak against the worth of its idealistic orientation, and cultural achievements. It just indicates that nothing, no matter how good, lasts forever, and that history runs in cycles. We are on the falling side of things now. But still every single one of us has the choice how to face that: distasteful like thuse scumbags here, hysteric or whining like cowards, or standing tall and with a clear and noble mind, riding the rollercoaster as good as we can without giving up our honour even when we know that the high times of our culture are over and the "empire" is desintegrating from within.

How we face our fears and our end, maybe says more about us than did the times when everything was still shiny and allright. For it is easy to smile when life is good and means you well.

Seen thjat way I maybe should be more precise. We WERE a superior civilisation in the West, and now lose in integrity and worth. But for the forseeable future, we are still better than most others, even when the path ahead in the future leads downward. Some of the others fall alongside with us, while others stayed at the primitive bottom all the time and never rose to humanism civilised value, so...

Just my personal verdict.

TLAM Strike

01-19-12, 10:47 AM

I personally found that sheep footage disturbing :nope:
I'm guessing those troops were getting ready for the local Buzkashi tournament:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8f9_1286457380

You should see what the locals do to the livestock...

(NSFW)
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c3a_1325638815
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=5a4_1205329891
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=cf8_1315940013
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f95_1323825370

diluvian

01-19-12, 11:06 AM

01-19-12, 11:13 AM

" Still, there are things that are clearly, and plain wrong. For all people, worldwide. From Guantanamo to those videos of US soldiers doing strange things to say at least, e.g. those eight men and a sheep (Very bad content :nope: )

So what is the point of posting this video again?
You trying to prove what exactly?
(very disturbing video)

Here is a pic....so your point is invalid:03:
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6187/6079717836_9da3bca906.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ccdet/6079717836/)

Catfish

01-19-12, 11:30 AM

So we freed a people who likes to f. goats, from the fangs of the Taliban - was this TLAM's point ?

@MH: There arecertainly good and positive photos and video, but one of the sort mentioned ruins ten good ones easily.

IF there is a point i just wanted to show how utterly superior our troops are, (in every aspect, compared to the Taliban) and what an example they give, to the Iraqi civilians, and the rest of the world. :nope:

And that the first video with which it all began, and which is not shown, (the killing of an "insurgent" Reuters reporter along with "collateral damage" of civilians from a helicopter), reveals that the soldiers doing it were obviously having fun doing it. Whether they were on drugs, or just gung ho or high by having the power to kill is another thing, but discipline and a shining example has not much to do with it.
Which, again, places us high above those primitive barbarians :doh:

Penguin

01-19-12, 11:40 AM

I personally find the cruelity against a helpless animal much more disturbing, despicable and disgusting than peeing on an enemy's corpse.
For the latter I have some understanding to a point - this doesn't mean I find it good. However this is no boxing match, where you shake each others hands after a fair fight, those people wanted to off each other before - so it's more difficult to switch to "respect mode" afterwards.
The question remains why a sheep which is literally one of the most unagressive creatures has to be a target of uncalled violence, there are many other ways to work off pent-up aggression.

Penguin

01-19-12, 11:42 AM

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6187/6079717836_9da3bca906.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ccdet/6079717836/)
"She hit me first, so I had to blow her brains out!" :D

note: if someone doesn't get the sarcasm, you need to lighten up, I can't help it.
The people here, who were children after WW2 still hold very good memories of the US troops. I'd say treating kids nice was an effective way to win hearts & minds.

Tribesman

01-19-12, 11:46 AM

You should see what the locals do to the livestock...

In the interests of fairness shouldn't there be a donkey shafting a Taliban?

Hottentot

01-19-12, 11:54 AM

note: if someone doesn't get the sarcasm, you need to lighten up, I can't help it.

The famous last words in internet.

Ducimus

01-19-12, 12:29 PM

As I have said before, if people want to sign their lives to the whim of some politician that is their problem.
You might have a point if you could show any decent politicians out there who would decide who I should fight and what I should die for....but I doubt you can find a single one.
Serving in the military dioes not make you somehow special and does not make your comments any more valid...especially in this case where they make no sense and in fact fly in the face of that which you are supposed to represent

So in other words, you ARE talking out of your ass, because you have no point of reference for any real world experience. You're all talk, and no action. Your a do nothing. Thanks for finally admitting to. We're done here.

Tribesman

01-19-12, 01:05 PM

So in other words, you ARE talking out of your ass, because you have no point of reference for any real world experience.
You prove my point very well, you are just the same as West with his completely stupid statement and just as clueless.
That statement you quoted takes your views to pieces and spits them back as the absolute rubbish they are....yet you don't even realise:yeah:

You're all talk, and no action.
Clueless

Your a do nothing
Clueless again.

Thanks for finally admitting to
Errrr ....english language is a problem for you then:har::har::har::har:

We're done here.
Indeed, you have done yourself up like a kipper:yeah:
Well done ducimus, it isn't everyone who can serve themselves up on a plate like that. :rotfl2:

tater

01-19-12, 03:45 PM

Geopolitically, I think this doesn't matter in the least. Convince me otherwise, and I'll care to the extent it harms us. Hmm, maybe it will make the enemy become so insanely religious they'll kill themselves and civilians on purpose! Nah, no group could be that stupid...

As far as the USMC is concerned, if they believe it to be a discipline issue, and want to pursue it, that's their prerogative.

In historical context (including the notion that "we're better than such behavior"), this is nothing at all. US Marines did FAR worse routinely to jap carcasses in ww2. Did worse to living people, too (given the fact that summary execution was the norm for most combat actions vs the japs). If the US was "the good guys" in ww2, and if the world liked us AFTER ww2, then making any argument about how this looks seems absurd to me. We killed more, we killed more civilians (intentionally, into the bargain), and our guys took souvenirs (including body parts) from enemy corpses, yet we were still loved and admired after the war. Stuff like this only matters to the extent that the media gins it up.

The lads deserve a reprimand for being stupid, that's about it.