HMS Aboukir, HMS Hogue and HMS Cressy to be scrapped.

[Kongo Otto]

Dutch salvage contractors are cutting up the wrecks of three British warships in the North Sea which mark the graves of 1,459 Royal Navy sailors. The cruisers HMS Aboukir, HMS Hogue and HMS Cressy were torpedoed by the German submarine U-9 off the Dutch coast on 22 September 1914. http://www.private-eye.co.uk/sections.php?section_link=in_the_back&issue=1302

http://www.defencemanagement.com/news_story.asp?id=18282

[Osmium Steele]

Wow. Just Wow...

If anyplace deserves consideration as a war grave, or museum site, these certainly do.

[Sailor Steve]

I agree this is a terrible thing, but unfortunately entirely legal. There is a law, but the British government sold any claim they had to invoke that law more than fifty years ago.

[Herr-Berbunch]

http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/2408/mvbela.jpg

I had a gift subscription to Private Eye a couple of years ago, it is perhaps the most eye-opening reading ever! I may have to subscribe again. :yep:

[Schroeder]

I wasn't even aware that war graves can be sold away.:damn:

[Oberon]

I wasn't even aware that war graves can be sold away.:damn:

Everything has a price... :nope:

[Jimbuna]

Absolutely disgraceful imo...I wonder if Churchill was aware of what was being agreed to in 1954?

[HunterICX]

:nope: How tasteless and dishonorable....

HunterICX

[Randomizer]

Absolutely disgraceful imo...I wonder if Churchill was aware of what was being agreed to in 1954?
Of course he did, as First Lord he bore much of the responsibility for the ships being there in the first place since he had ordered resumption of the armoured cruiser patrols off the Dutch coast against the advice of the Admiralty Operations Division.

No doubt he wanted the lopsided German victory off the Broad Fourteens forgotten and removed from his copybook.

There are more than a few crocodile tears being shed here and Britain's reasonably new-found reverence for the sanctity of marine war graves is rather odd given that the British Museum is chock full of loot pulled from the assorted graves of lesser cultures. Of course British commercial interests were involved in the scrapping of the Jutland wrecks SMS Lutzow and Pommern, both of which, by the standards claimed here, should have been preserved. Can't say who snagged HMS Queen Mary's propellers though.

We clean up land battlefields, why not those at sea. Provided of course that proper respect be accorded to all human remains that might be recovered in the process. By the standards being claimed here every battlefield should remain sacrosanct forever including all of the Western Front since it is still one contiguous graveyard. Common sense has to prevail.

One of the things that make these wrecks valuable is the quantities of non-radioactive ferrous metals of which there is only a small and shrinking global quantity. Every piece of steel produced after the Trinity nuclear test contains minute quantities of radioactive isotopes but the scrap from ships built and sunk before July 1945 is radiation free and can be used for all sorts of specialty applications. These end-uses are frequently medically related and so there is a very real prospect that the scrap from Aboukir, Cressy and Hogue might actually help save lives.

The Brit's sold the wrecks and the Dutch have every claim to profit from them. I will now don my best NOMEX suit and await the rage from the UK members here.

[Oberon]

http://i1-news.softpedia-static.com/images/news2/How-Flamethrowers-Work-2.jpg


In all seriousness, you do make a good point, and it wouldn't be the first ship that people have died on which has been cut up. Heck, they refloated, sold and reused the Herald of Free Enterprise on which 193 people died, AFAIK she's still in service somewhere in Taiwan.
Thing is though, where do you draw the line? Should the Titanic be cut up?
Furthermore there are the environmental concerns, a lot of these wrecks are now home to a plethora of sea life, removing the hull will remove their home.
The English channel is an absolute carpet of ship wrecks, you cannot move down there without running into either a ship or an aircraft wreck.

[nikimcbee]

How deep of water are they in?

I'll just add this:
http://www.wrecksite.eu/wreck.aspx?57

[Kongo Otto]

Of course he did, as First Lord he bore much of the responsibility for the ships being there in the first place since he had ordered resumption of the armoured cruiser patrols off the Dutch coast against the advice of the Admiralty Operations Division.

No doubt he wanted the lopsided German victory off the Broad Fourteens forgotten and removed from his copybook.

There are more than a few crocodile tears being shed here and Britain's reasonably new-found reverence for the sanctity of marine war graves is rather odd given that the British Museum is chock full of loot pulled from the assorted graves of lesser cultures. Of course British commercial interests were involved in the scrapping of the Jutland wrecks SMS Lutzow and Pommern, both of which, by the standards claimed here, should have been preserved. Can't say who snagged HMS Queen Mary's propellers though.

We clean up land battlefields, why not those at sea. Provided of course that proper respect be accorded to all human remains that might be recovered in the process. By the standards being claimed here every battlefield should remain sacrosanct forever including all of the Western Front since it is still one contiguous graveyard. Common sense has to prevail.

One of the things that make these wrecks valuable is the quantities of non-radioactive ferrous metals of which there is only a small and shrinking global quantity. Every piece of steel produced after the Trinity nuclear test contains minute quantities of radioactive isotopes but the scrap from ships built and sunk before July 1945 is radiation free and can be used for all sorts of specialty applications. These end-uses are frequently medically related and so there is a very real prospect that the scrap from Aboukir, Cressy and Hogue might actually help save lives.

The Brit's sold the wrecks and the Dutch have every claim to profit from them. I will now don my best NOMEX suit and await the rage from the UK members here.


Well then it should also be no Problem to scrap the Arizona if i got your logic conclusions right?

Land Battlefields can be cleaned up and the fallen soldiers can be buried in Military Cemetaries, this is impossible to Victims of Sea Battles, their ship is their Coffin so it should be treated as an official war grave / military cemetary as it always was.

[Kongo Otto]

How deep of water are they in?


Today the three cruisers lie in about 80 feet of water, some 22 miles out from Scheveningen.

[nikimcbee]

How deep of water are they in?

I'll just add this:
http://www.wrecksite.eu/wreck.aspx?57

Lettens Jan (http://www.wrecksite.eu/userView.aspx?1)06/08/2007

Lies in approx 35m depth. The top of the wreck extends to 10m above the seabed and lies turtle, while the rest of the wreck lies to port side. Big holes on the side of the ship. Lots of explosives and shells to find. Visibility 6 to 25m.
insert wreck site info

:D It would be interesting to see some dive photos.

[Randomizer]

Well then it should also be no Problem to scrap the Arizona if i got your logic conclusions right?

Land Battlefields can be cleaned up and the fallen soldiers can be buried in Military Cemetaries, this is impossible to Victims of Sea Battles, their ship is their Coffin so it should be treated as an official war grave / military cemetary as it always was.
Arizona is a dedicated War Grave, Aboukir, Cressy and Hogue were sold as scrap by their own government. If you cannot see any difference between the two...

Besides, Arizona is an environmental disaster waiting to happen as she continues to deteriorate exposing her fuel bunkers. At some point something will need to be done. Perhaps, in your view, they should have left Oklahoma where she was?

The needs of the living should always take priority over the dead who have no more needs. Remembrance is about what we do not where we do it.

[nikimcbee]

(no disrespect to the Brits) This is one of my favorite U-Boat stories. I can only imagine what it was like to be in the control room of the U-9:Kaleun_Periskop: Three cruisers:o!

[Kongo Otto]

:D It would be interesting to see some dive photos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsh88JCIJXY&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL210D55EDC4B17CD8

[nikimcbee]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsh88JCIJXY&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL210D55EDC4B17CD8

:salute:Thanks.

[Kongo Otto]

The needs of the living should always take priority over the dead who have no more needs. Remembrance is about what we do not where we do it.

*zynism on*
Exactly! Therefore we should tear down all US Cemeteries here in Europe and build Houses on the land for they who have more needs.
You can do your rememberance over there at your place, so there is no need for US Military Cemeteries in Europe at all.
*zynism off*

[Randomizer]

*zynism on*
Exactly! Therefore we should tear down all US Cemeteries here in Europe and build Houses on the land for they who have more needs.
You can do your rememberance over there at your place, so there is no need for US Military Cemeteries in Europe at all.
*zynism off*

Well, since you intend to indulge in pathetic, straw-man, kindergarten hyperbole, I will leave you to it...

[Schroeder]

Arizona is a dedicated War Grave, Aboukir, Cressy and Hogue were sold as scrap by their own government. If you cannot see any difference between the two...

So the difference between a war grave that must be respected and a chunk of metal ready to be salvaged is a buying contract....:hmmm:
No, sorry I really can't see the difference.

On the other hand I can understand where you are coming from, but it still seems wrong to me. Just gut feeling.

[Kongo Otto]

*zynism on*
Exactly! Therefore we should tear down all US Cemeteries here in Europe and build Houses on the land for they who have more needs.
You can do your rememberance over there at your place, so there is no need for US Military Cemeteries in Europe at all.
*zynism off*

*

Well, since you intend to indulge in pathetic, straw-man, kindergarten hyperbole, I will leave you to it...


I just put your own words in a bit harsher ones, i just had the guts to speak out what your thinking was!

[Kongo Otto]

So the difference between a war grave that must be respected and a chunk of metal ready to be salvaged is a buying contract....:hmmm:
No, sorry I really can't see the difference.

On the other hand I can understand where you are coming from, but it still seems wrong to me. Just gut feeling.

No the difference is patriotism and rememberence is only allowed to americans, thats why a bombed Battleship is a national shrine and three RN Ships are just a Pile of junk!
And then they are wondering themselves why almost 95% on this Planet hates them.

[Sailor Steve]

(no disrespect to the Brits) This is one of my favorite U-Boat stories. I can only imagine what it was like to be in the control room of the U-9:Kaleun_Periskop: Three cruisers:o!
Then you should also imagine what it was like to be the same captain, in the control room of U-29, when that boat was run over and squashed like a bug by 18,000 tons of HMS Dreadnought. :O: :dead:

[Jimbuna]

Let us not stray into the realms of insults and name calling please...we are all better than that.

TIA

[nikimcbee]

Then you should also imagine what it was like to be the same captain, in the control room of U-29, when that boat was run over and squashed like a bug by 18,000 tons of HMS Dreadnought. :O: :dead:
Did you hear something? Crunch.
It was over pretty quick I imagine for them.

If I recall, did the Dreadnought hit them midships?

I forgot, U-29's engine had died and they couldn't move.:dead:

[Takeda Shingen]

I don't know, my view is that this is not unlike the old practice of 'clearing' graveyards for new use; a common practice up until the 19th Century. It can be considered a desecration, or it can be thought of as forward-looking and utilitarian. Ultimately, it is only the living that squabble about it; the dead don't really care one way or another.

[August]

I just put your own words in a bit harsher ones, i just had the guts to speak out what your thinking was!

Guts? What guts did it take to anonymously insult someone? That's not guts, that's the very definition of cowardice.

[Randomizer]

I don't know, my view is that this is not unlike the old practice of 'clearing' graveyards for new use; a common practice up until the 19th Century. It can be considered a desecration, or it can be thought of as forward-looking and utilitarian. Ultimately, it is only the living that squabble about it; the dead don't really care one way or another.
My point exactly. Provided any human remains are treated with due respect and re-interred with honour, the ships themselves are really so much scrap. Valuable and useful scrap at that.

[Takeda Shingen]

My point exactly. Provided any human remains are treated with due respect and re-interred with honour, the ships themselves are really so much scrap. Valuable and useful scrap at that.

Well, yes and no. I can completely understand your point and agree with it. However, I have no connection with those that died there. I probably wouldn't be crazy about somebody doing the same with the graves of my parents, so I can see the other side as well. It all depends on your perspective.

[August]

I don't know, my view is that this is not unlike the old practice of 'clearing' graveyards for new use; a common practice up until the 19th Century. It can be considered a desecration, or it can be thought of as forward-looking and utilitarian. Ultimately, it is only the living that squabble about it; the dead don't really care one way or another.

Well said.

Reminds me of the Japanese governments effort to clear Truk Lagoon of remains so it can be opened up as a dive resort. They handled it with dignity and reverence. Perhaps the same thing can be accomplished in this case.

[Randomizer]

Well, yes and no. I can completely understand your point and agree with it. However, I have no connection with those that died there. I probably wouldn't be crazy about somebody doing the same with the graves of my parents, so I can see the other side as well. It all depends on your perspective.
Fair ball. I see it as a distinction without a difference however.

[Sailor Steve]

I forgot, U-29's engine had died and they couldn't move.:dead:
Where did you get that from? Every account I've read says that U-29 was in the process of attacking the fleet when Dreadnought spotted the periscope and ran her over.

[Catfish]

Well it was U-29 which was sunk by a Dreadnought, but it had been U-9 which sunk the three cruisers. Of course, Weddigen had been commander of both.

Even if it had been defenseless and surfaced, Churchill's order was that "Shipwrecked crews [of U-boats] should be arrested or shot, whatever seems practical." A fleet being threatend by U-boats would have most probably made a ramming "more practical" :-?

[Jimbuna]

Dreadnoughtserved with the 4th Battle Squadron in the North Sea during the first two years of World War I. On 18 March 1915, while so employed, she rammed and sank the German Submarine U-29.


http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/sh-fornv/uk/uksh-d/drednt9.htm

[danny60]

This is abosluty outrageious,
I'm quite sure that ANY other country would have waged hell to prevent there war graves being scrapped. so, if its ok for the dutch to break up our wargraves, does that make it OK for me to go and break up the bismark?
I sure hope someone knocks some sense into the dutch soon.

[danny60]

This is absolutely outrageous, I'm quite sure that ANY other country would have waged hell to prevent there war graves being scrapped. So, if its ok for the dutch to break up our wargraves, does that make it OK for me to go and break up the bismark?
I sure hope someone knocks some sense into the dutch soon.

[August]

...does that make it OK for me to go and break up the bismark?

Well let's see, did the German government sell you the Bismark wreck?

If not then no it doesn't.

[nikimcbee]

Where did you get that from? Every account I've read says that U-29 was in the process of attacking the fleet when Dreadnought spotted the periscope and ran her over.

This is from wiki:hmmm:
ritish dreadnought battleships fired on their German counterparts during the war. However, she became the only battleship ever to sink a submarine when she rammed the SM U-29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SM_U-29_(Germany)) when it unexpectedly broke the surface after firing a torpedo at another dreadnought in 1915.




Ah, here's the problem. I was thinking of the U-15
The engines had apparently failed as she was laying stopped on the surface in heavy fog when HMS Birmingham spotted her and could clearly hear hammering from inside the boat (presumably from attempted repairs). The cruiser fired on her but missed, and as the boat began to dive, she rammed her cutting her in two. This was the first U-boat loss to an enemy warship.

[Oberon]

Sounds to me like someone didn't adjust the trim after firing quick enough... :dead:

[Jimbuna]

She was rammed by Dreadnought....read the link in my earlier post :o

[Oberon]

She was rammed by Dreadnought....read the link in my earlier post :o

I meant how she broached just before Dreadnought rammed her. :03:

[Jimbuna]

I meant how she broached just before Dreadnought rammed her. :03:

Rgr that :DL

[clive bradbury]

There are more than a few crocodile tears being shed here and Britain's reasonably new-found reverence for the sanctity of marine war graves is rather odd given that the British Museum is chock full of loot pulled from the assorted graves of lesser cultures. Of course British commercial interests were involved in the scrapping of the Jutland wrecks SMS Lutzow and Pommern, both of which, by the standards claimed here, should have been preserved. Can't say who snagged HMS Queen Mary's propellers though.

Just a few points:

Which sources do you rely upon to support the accusation that the tears are 'crocodile' rather than related to genuine concern over a war grave? Or is it simply speculation on your part not backed by evidence?

The British Museum is certainly full of loot from graves. There is a name for that - archeology. If you are prepared to accuse British archeologists of being grave robbers then please extend that accusation to the providers of similar artifacts in US museums.

Could you please reference your source for the British commercial interests re the Pommern and Lutzow, both of which, as far as can be ascertained, were heavily salvaged by a GERMAN company in the 1950s and 60s?