Santorum brought home stillborn child...bat**** crazy alert.

[Bubblehead1980]

:damn::down:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A61804-2005Apr17.html

[Oberon]

Aaaah, the US press during the election season...nothing is sacred.

[magicstix]

Oh noes. He brought his stillborn child home to mourn rather than throw him in medical waste disposal like a good godless liberal. What a horrible person he is.

Really? This makes him crazy? Have you ever lost a child?

[Bubblehead1980]

Aaaah, the US press during the election season...nothing is sacred.


Well the people need to know about this religious wackjob as he has to be taken seriously for now.I am a Republican and a Conservative(albeit non religious) but this guy is just scary, he is out of his mind.

[magicstix]

Well the people need to know about this religious wackjob as he has to be taken seriously for now.I am a Republican and a Conservative(albeit non religious) but this guy is just scary, he is out of his mind.

I'm sure you have your reasons for thinking so, but attacking him for bringing his dead child home for visitation instead of a funeral home is not in the slightest bit crazy and very much below the belt. You'll have to use some other sensational evidence, IMO.

[Sea Demon]

Well the people need to know about this religious wackjob as he has to be taken seriously for now.I am a Republican and a Conservative(albeit non religious) but this guy is just scary, he is out of his mind.

Strikes me as extremely arrogant and pathetic to criticize how any family grieves for the loss of a child. This is a tough time for any family who's been through the loss of a baby.

[nikimcbee]

Aaaah, the US press during the election season...nothing is sacred.

This. This reporter needs to look up the word "tasteless."

I'm sure you have your reasons for thinking so, but attacking him for bringing his dead child home for visitation instead of a funeral home is not in the slightest bit crazy and very much below the belt.

It's a personal matter, it's nobody's damn business what he does with his child. If that's how his family chose how to mourn, then good for him.

[Kongo Otto]

:damn::down:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A61804-2005Apr17.html

Ok but whats the news in about an Washington Post article from 2005?

[Tribesman]

Wow bubbles, you have really lost it.:doh:
Ask around your family, or even your friends if you have any and see how many have had a loss in the same way as these people and how many have acted in exactly the same way.

[Skybird]

"Frist, Lott and McConnell are not as passionate as Rick Santorum," says Sen. Arlen Specter, Santorum's fellow Republican from Pennsylvania. "He takes on more issues that have an emotional component."

A lot of people do, but Santorum creates and attracts more heat. It might be the pride he takes in his agitator's role. Or, simply, that he's an up-and-comer who knows he's an up-and-comer.

(...)

In conversations, Santorum tends to use out-of-favor terms, then correct himself in a way that calls attention to the infraction ("stewardess, or flight attendant, I should say"). "I'm supposed to go to a dinner at the American Indian museum," he says later. "Sorry, the Native American museum. I always mess that up."

Have not seen much of him over here, but what I saw, immediately gave me the imrpession of a person who is calculating how to stage-act best. That is not only not authetic behaviour then, but also means a person that is manipulative and does not reveal to you its real intention. Other parts of the WP story also give me the impression of him doing a lot of stage-acting only.

On the baby issue, I weigh the natural healthiness of doing mourning by a clear mind that allows the sadness being felt, against religious extremism and and the nut mindset of militant irrationalism that the abortion debate accompanies much stronger in the US than here in Europe. Santorum's stillborn maybe was beyond the developement phase before which you may even have problems to recognise that drop of gallert you hold on hour fingertip as something human at all, with 20 weeks, you can recognise a fetus as a human body indeed, and not just symbolically. I will not criticise him on his decision to take the dead body home, therefore. Critical I am of attempts to call every unspecific bunch of cellular mass as a "human" with a personality, a mind, emotions, perceptions, etc etc. . There is too much irrationality in the debate. And much of it comes as a varied consequence from that religious crazy idea of "be fruitful and multiply", man made by the image of a deity (which would be no compliment to the deity then...) and that man shall rule all life and see himself as the crown of creation. Such beliefs of course cause emotional sentiments that are not amongst the most modest there are. In this case, as said I will not criticise Santorum for his decision.

But I question his motives, both regarding the media and the public, and his living children.

To me, Santorum comes across as a great and unscrupulous manipulator, and a blender.

[Takeda Shingen]

I'm going with Bubblehead in saying that I think it is a bit odd too. Sure, he is in mourning, but I wouldn't be bringing the corpse home. I haven't been in his shoes, so I don't know how I would react, but this is just my guy reaction.

[Kongo Otto]

I'm going with Bubblehead in saying that I think it is a bit odd too. Sure, he is in mourning, but I wouldn't be bringing the corpse home. I haven't been in his shoes, so I don't know how I would react, but this is just my guy reaction.

Do you really mean he is still mourning?
After all the posted News link is almost seven years old.

IMHO its far more interesting what the reason was to post a News article from April 2005 in this forum? :hmmm:

[Takeda Shingen]

Do you really mean he is still mourning?
After all the posted News link is almost seven years old.

IMHO its far more interesting what the reason was to post a News article from April 2005 in this forum? :hmmm:

I meant that he was in mourning at the time. I am also aware that the news was from 2005. If you look to the left of this post, you will see that I live in Pennsylvania, USA. Rick Santorum was my US Senator for two terms. I am familiar with this story, familiar with Santorum and was familiar with it when he talked about it during his 2008 sentatorial campaign. I thought, with your permission of course, that I would sound off with my view.

[Kongo Otto]

I meant that he was in mourning at the time. I am also aware that the news was from 2005. If you look to the left of this post, you will see that I live in Pennsylvania, USA. Rick Santorum was my US Senator for two terms. I am familiar with this story, familiar with Santorum and was familiar with it when he talked about it during his 2008 sentatorial campaign. I thought, with your permission of course, that I would sound off with my view.

Dont missunderstand me, i dont have a problem with the whole story.
Maybe its a bit odd but sometimes people do odd things, whats odd and whats not thats always in the eye of the beholder.

No need to ask me about anykind of permission, i dont have a problem with your view.

[Takeda Shingen]

Dont missunderstand me, i dont have a problem with the whole story.
Maybe its a bit odd but sometimes people do odd things, whats odd and whats not thats always in the eye of the beholder.

No need to ask me about anykind of permission, i dont have a problem with your view.

The story is coming out because he is running for President of the United States. His detractors are trying to use scare tactics. The same thing happens to every candidate when he or she runs. That's American politics for you.

[1480]

Having gone it through it twice, it's not a fun experience. How people express grief and how they get over it is a private matter.

Its the fact that the media is choosing the loss of a child to highlight the fact that this man is pro-life is disgusting. Once again, the fair and balanced MSM is playing king maker.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

The story is coming out because he is running for President of the United States. His detractors are trying to use scare tactics. The same thing happens to every candidate when he or she runs. That's American politics for you.This is side in american politics I really hate. Its presidential election year here in Finland and so far I have not heard about any scare campaigns (or they have not been news worthy). I would be very pleased if it stays that way.

Finnish Presidential election 2012

First round 22 January with advance voting 11-17 January.
Second round 5 February.
Second round occurs only if no one gets majority of votes (50% or more) which in this years election is virtually guaranteed.
Wikipedia article on this year's circus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_presidential_election,_2012)

[Dowly]

This is side in american politics I really hate.

Aye, same here. Never understood it, it's like a bloodless civil war from what I've seen. :nope:

"Balls to what is good for America, as long as our candidate wins!!!111"

Stupid. :shifty:

[Hottentot]

so far I have not heard about any scare campaigns (or they have not been news worthy).

Nah, the big dogs are far too afraid of saying anything in fear of losing voters. With only a few million voters and a handful of candidates (of which half of them are there just for publicity) the best bet is to talk a lot without saying anything.

Aye, same here.

The above being said, I third this.

[Takeda Shingen]

Having gone it through it twice, it's not a fun experience. How people express grief and how they get over it is a private matter.

Its the fact that the media is choosing the loss of a child to highlight the fact that this man is pro-life is disgusting. Once again, the fair and balanced MSM is playing king maker.

The media should be aware of it anyway because Santorum used it to illustrate his position several times during his 2008 senatorial campaign. He's proud of it. Frankly, if you use it then it is fair game. If you feel it's use is disgusting then I would suggest your disgust be directed at Santorum himself for making it public in the first place.

I thought that FOX News had the fair and balanced tag line.

[CCIP]

The media should be aware of it anyway because Santorum used it to illustrate his position several times during his 2008 senatorial campaign. He's proud of it. Frankly, if you use it then it is fair game. If you feel it's use is disgusting then I would suggest your disgust be directed at Santorum himself for making it public in the first place.

I thought that FOX News had the fair and balanced tag line.

Agreed, while I think media sensationalization is definitely at work here, Santorum is the one that has made this public discourse in the first place - and in fact has made it impossible for this to not be public discourse, because he has used it to illustrate his position on public policy as an elected official. So, sorry, while this is distasteful, I have no sympathy for Santorum's privacy and feelings here - he chose to take this beyond private business and doesn't deserve to be treated sensitively over it. Granted, this isn't what we should be focusing on when discussing politics, of course.

[1480]

Lo siento T and C.

I did not involve myself in that race, so I did not have knowledge of the fact. If it is as you state, than no.

Well, lets see if and how it is rehashed in the media. The MSM gave Obama a pass with his relationships to Rezko, Wright, and Ayers.

They had a road map and chose to throw it in the garbage.

[Bubblehead1980]

Strikes me as extremely arrogant and pathetic to criticize how any family grieves for the loss of a child. This is a tough time for any family who's been through the loss of a baby.


There is nothing arrogant and pathetic about pointing out that someone is sounbalanced to bring a dead body home to "meet" the family. Grief is a powerful emotion but rational, sane people do not even react this way when grieving where as people who are irrational and not exactly sane normally(Santorum's much espoused religious views show he is not exactly rational to begin with) This fool brought a dead body home! Sure it was a baby, but remove the emotion attached to it being a child "it's a baby" is a not an excuse for crazy behavior from anyone, let a lone a Presidential candidate.

[Tribesman]

Bubbles, you are really showing yourself up.
while a few people have touched on why it may be a story you are just demonstrating that you are totally clueless.

[Bubblehead1980]

Do you really mean he is still mourning?
After all the posted News link is almost seven years old.

IMHO its far more interesting what the reason was to post a News article from April 2005 in this forum? :hmmm:

Does not matter how old it is, it happened and needs to be out there.Most sane people who maybe even considered him(I was one, sad to say, even though I despise his absurd religious views, I may have swallowed the lump in my throat and voted for him over Romney, we just can't run Romney against Barry) but this story, pointed out by a friend while were discussing things over a nice bottle of single malt:yeah:, is just beyond disturbing.Normal civilized , rational people would not bring the dead body of a stillborn home, sorry.This man belongs in a padded white room, not the white house and does not even need to be close to the nomination or VP slot, which is what I think he has been angling for all along honestly, VP.

[Bubblehead1980]

Bubbles, you are really showing yourself up.
while a few people have touched on why it may be a story you are just demonstrating that you are totally clueless.


Tribes, you will fight anything I say on here even when the fair and rational minded such as Takeda(who even when I disagree, I respect because he has reason behind it unlike you), it's personal for you, get a life.

Showing myself up? No, I am pointing out what an irrational rube and fool Santorum is.Nuts like him make us conservatives who have beliefs that are rational and in line with reality look like fools.Santorum would cost us four more years of Obama is he was the nominee, because even if things are still terrible economic wise(they will be, prob worst, watch and see) people will be turned off by Santorums idiocy.

[Bubblehead1980]

Lo siento T and C.

I did not involve myself in that race, so I did not have knowledge of the fact. If it is as you state, than no.

Well, lets see if and how it is rehashed in the media. The MSM gave Obama a pass with his relationships to Rezko, Wright, and Ayers.

They had a road map and chose to throw it in the garbage.


I despise the MSM for giving Obama a pass on his shady past(you just mentioned the well known stuff), it alone should have kept him out of the white house.There is a difference between being a shady chicago political left wing hack and being an irrational nutjob like Santorum.

[Bubblehead1980]

Aye, same here. Never understood it, it's like a bloodless civil war from what I've seen. :nope:

"Balls to what is good for America, as long as our candidate wins!!!111"

Stupid. :shifty:


Pointing out one's dangerous flaws is a healthy part of politics.Only really negative when it's not true or the truth is stretched and things are not portrayed accurately.This is not a negative attack on Santorum, it is 100% true and it is pointing out a huge flaw, he is a irrational nut who brought a dead baby home to "meet" the family.:damn:

[Dowly]

Pointing out one's dangerous flaws is a healthy part of politics.Only really negative when it's not true or the truth is stretched and things are not portrayed accurately.This is not a negative attack on Santorum, it is 100% true and it is pointing out a huge flaw, he is a irrational nut who brought a dead baby home to "meet" the family.:damn:

I'm not talking about Santorum, but politics in general over there. :salute:

[Tribesman]

Showing myself up? No, I am pointing out what an irrational rube and fool Santorum is.
Like I implied, you are simply talking out of your arse.
In case you didn't notice Takeda who you think agrees with you put in some qualifications which you seem totally oblivious to.
I never thought I would defend a prick like Santorum.(only of course defending his actions not his politicising of those actions), but in this case you are so far over the line of ignorance that it simply needs saying.
Maybe when you grow up and see a bit more of life(and death) you may perhaps understand why you are most definately being a pillock on this paricular issue.

[darius359au]

There is nothing arrogant and pathetic about pointing out that someone is sounbalanced to bring a dead body home to "meet" the family. Grief is a powerful emotion but rational, sane people do not even react this way when grieving where as people who are irrational and not exactly sane normally(Santorum's much espoused religious views show he is not exactly rational to begin with) This fool brought a dead body home! Sure it was a baby, but remove the emotion attached to it being a child "it's a baby" is a not an excuse for crazy behavior from anyone, let a lone a Presidential candidate.

You haven't been there so you dont know what was in his head at the time ,If you had you wouldn't even be posting this so called "story" - have you got any idea what people go through when this happens? ,any idea of the hell a couple go through with this? ,any idea of the fear you go through EVERY day of the next pregnancy hoping it doesn't happen again? ,and the fear when your wife starts having pre-eclampsia and the baby has to be delivered 4 and a half weeks early with an emergency c-section!

This story doesn't say sod all about the man but it says volumes about you and the things your prepared to post and beat up because you dont like the guy!


I'm sorry if anyone else finds this post offensive but I had to vent about bubbleheads post and attitude with this - my eldest would have been 14 this year ,despite what some people think it never leaves you ,it just gradually hurts less over the years ,and for someone to cheapen that is disgusting!

[Bubblehead1980]

You haven't been there so you dont know what was in his head at the time ,If you had you wouldn't even be posting this so called "story" - have you got any idea what people go through when this happens? ,any idea of the hell a couple go through with this? ,any idea of the fear you go through EVERY day of the next pregnancy hoping it doesn't happen again? ,and the fear when your wife starts having pre-eclampsia and the baby has to be delivered 4 and a half weeks early with an emergency c-section!

This story doesn't say sod all about the man but it says volumes about you and the things your prepared to post and beat up because you dont like the guy!


I'm sorry if anyone else finds this post offensive but I had to vent about bubbleheads post and attitude with this - my eldest would have been 14 this year ,despite what some people think it never leaves you ,it just gradually hurts less over the years ,and for someone to cheapen that is disgusting!

First, I am sorry about what happened and imagine the pain is great nor does it ever never really go away.However, it is not excuse to act like an irrational fool such as the way Santorum did.Bringing a dead stillborn child home is just out of the bounds of rational, sane behavior that is needed in life esp from someone who is aspiring to be the President.Obviously he can not handle his grief properly, I know people who have lost children, babies and those older, they were miserable and took them a long time to even seem normal again BUT they did not lose their marbles and act like a fool.Santorums behavior is an offshot of his religious zeal, which is another sign that he lacks a clear and rational thought process.

Damn it, I could see if his wife wanted to do it, she is a the woman, her body chemistry changes, hormones etc and she just delievered a child who is dead.This is where he is supposed to be the MAN and stop crazy ideas like 'lets bring the dead child home to play with the kids" but he obviously can not handle strees, grief etc very well either so there was no one there to be a buffer.

I am sure this sounds cold hearted and I get it, this is not a personal thing against Santorum.I was willing to ignore some of his crazy religious stuff because he would be a clear alternative to Romney and Obama.However, once I read into his depth of irrational thought...such as making US law based on "gods law" and his crazy anti abortion stances in addition to the "bring a dead baby home" program, well it's over for him.The word must be spread about him before we wind up with him as the nominee because he would get slaughtered in the general, even with a terrible economy.Obama would be seen as the lesser of two evils and honestly, as much as it pains me to say it, he prob would be.

[Bubblehead1980]

Like I implied, you are simply talking out of your arse.
In case you didn't notice Takeda who you think agrees with you put in some qualifications which you seem totally oblivious to.
I never thought I would defend a prick like Santorum.(only of course defending his actions not his politicising of those actions), but in this case you are so far over the line of ignorance that it simply needs saying.
Maybe when you grow up and see a bit more of life(and death) you may perhaps understand why you are most definately being a pillock on this paricular issue.

I have seen death, I don't let my emotions overrule rational though.Ignorance? No ignorance here, I am aware a stillborn baby is a sad thing and people do grieve differently.However, there is a line and bringing a dead baby home is crossing it.Not normal or rational, I guess if some joe blow nobody does it, well ok I guess(still crazy and not right) but this guy is running for President and it s a nut, story needs to spread to stop any further rise of him before he costs us the election.

[Sailor Steve]

esp
He has Extra-Sensory Perception?

Damn it, I could see if his wife wanted to do it, she is a the woman, her body chemistry changes, hormones etc and she just delievered a child who is dead.This is where he is supposed to be the MAN and stop crazy ideas like 'lets bring the dead child home to play with the kids" but he obviously can not handle strees, grief etc very well either so there was no one there to be a buffer.
So speaks the bigot.

I am sure this sounds cold hearted and I get it, this is not a personal thing against Santorum.
Actually it just sounds childish and ignorant.

prob
Do all college graduate law students have this much trouble with the English language? To me this is more symptomatic of what's wrong with the world than anything Santorum does. Childish rants and tirades get you no credit in any debate. You sound like Archie Bunker.

[darius359au]

"Damn it, I could see if his wife wanted to do it, she is a the woman, her body chemistry changes, hormones etc and she just delievered a child who is dead.This is where he is supposed to be the MAN and stop crazy ideas like 'lets bring the dead child home to play with the kids" but he obviously can not handle strees, grief etc very well either so there was no one there to be a buffer."

So the wife can be all emotional but the husband has to be a "Man" and just suck it up and ignore it? ,you seriously don't have a clue! ,there are two people in a couple and they Both need support when things like this happen!, most couple were husband does the "Manly" thing end up separating because of the stress on the relationship!

It doesn't matter what anyone posts in this thread, you just wont get it so I think it's time to stick you on ignore and walk away before I post something that'll get me banned.

[Tribesman]

I have seen death, I don't let my emotions overrule rational though
You are not demonstrating any rational thought at all, in fact your emotions over silly politics sent you way off into loony land long ago.

No ignorance here
You really havn't got a clue have you:down:

[Bubblehead1980]

"Damn it, I could see if his wife wanted to do it, she is a the woman, her body chemistry changes, hormones etc and she just delievered a child who is dead.This is where he is supposed to be the MAN and stop crazy ideas like 'lets bring the dead child home to play with the kids" but he obviously can not handle strees, grief etc very well either so there was no one there to be a buffer."

So the wife can be all emotional but the husband has to be a "Man" and just suck it up and ignore it? ,you seriously don't have a clue! ,there are two people in a couple and they Both need support when things like this happen!, most couple were husband does the "Manly" thing end up separating because of the stress on the relationship!

It doesn't matter what anyone posts in this thread, you just wont get it so I think it's time to stick you on ignore and walk away before I post something that'll get me banned.

Just saying the man should to be the rock in that situation, may not be easy but should to prevent looney, emotional decisions from being made.Sorry if you don't like the truth.

[mookiemookie]

rather than throw him in medical waste disposal like a good godless liberal.

What a stupid comment. As if someone's political leanings have anything to do with it.

[Bubblehead1980]

What a stupid comment. As if someone's political leanings have anything to do with it.

I am pro choice and an atheist so suppose I get lumped in with the libs from time to time(whihc is ironic because I pretty much despise liberals otherwise) by those who do not know any better.I would rather be a godless liberal than a religious fool who ignores reality and believes in the big magic man in the sky.

No, not throw the baby in the dumpster but have the body sent to a funeral home and have a proper service, you know? Like normal, rational thinking people do when they grieve, not take it home like an irrational fool.

[Bubblehead1980]

You are not demonstrating any rational thought at all, in fact your emotions over silly politics sent you way off into loony land long ago.


You really havn't got a clue have you:down:


Hmm tribes, so not rational to suggest something crazy like sending the baby to a funeral home and not taking it home for a play date?

[Platapus]

So just to condense this thread. Santorum made a legally allowable decision concerning how his family chooses to grieve that some other people disagree with.

Do I have that straight?:06:

[Dowly]

Do I have that straight?:06:

:yep:

[GoldenRivet]

Havnt kept up with Santorum or really many recent events to be honest.

Yes... people do sometimes bring home their stillborn babies or babies who die within hours of birth before making further arrangements

this happens. I would likely do the same thing

unfortunately when someone who is in the media spotlight does it its suddenly a weird freakish thing that is frowned on.

his family

his child

his business

its not like they took the body home and went Donner party on it

[mookiemookie]

its not like they took the body home and went Donner party on it

:rotfl2: Nice image there.

[GoldenRivet]

:rotfl2: Nice image there.

a newsworthy one at that


this thing however... meh not newsworthy

[mookiemookie]

a newsworthy one at that


this thing however... meh not newsworthy

I personally think it's a bit macabre, but it's not really my place to say how someone should or shouldn't grieve.

Death photography to be very common in the Victorian era. (http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/archives/14682)

These photographs were a common aspect of American culture, a part of the mourning and memorialization process. Surviving families were proud of these images and hung them in their homes, sent copies to friends and relatives, wore them as lockets or carried them as pocket mirrors. Nineteenth-century Americans knew how to respond to these images. Today there is no culturally normative response to postmortem photographs.

[Takeda Shingen]

his family

his child

his business

Except when he chose to make it public business by using it during a political campaign. It's not like some paparazzi snapped a photo. He drew attention to it himself and used it as proof of his pro-life credentials in 2005 and again during the 2008 election cycle.

Again, I find it odd. Not in his shoes so I can't say how I'd react.

EDIT--Thanks mookie. That first photograph is going to give me nightmares.

[Sailor Steve]

Just saying the man should to be the rock in that situation, may not be easy but should to prevent looney, emotional decisions from being made.Sorry if you don't like the truth.
The truth is fine. Your opinion is fine. Your confusing one for the other is not.

[magicstix]

The truth is fine. Your opinion is fine. Your confusing one for the other is not.

Steve's right on IMO.

There's nothing wrong with bringing a dead loved one home for visitation. When my uncle died my Grandmother held visitation in her living room and refused to leave him at a funeral home. Before funeral homes became popular, people did exactly that, and would often hold wakes/funerals in their own houses.

It seems the only people who think this is crazy are those who already have a beef with Santorum because of political reasons.

[Sailor Steve]

Steve's right on IMO.
To be honest, I don't like this anymore than he does. I'm just aware that my opinion is only my opinion, and what I find distasteful someone else might actually find comforting.

There's nothing wrong with bringing a dead loved one home for visitation. When my uncle died my Grandmother held visitation in her living room and refused to leave him at a funeral home. Before funeral homes became popular, people did exactly that, and would often hold wakes/funerals in their own houses.
That's a good point, and coupled with mookie's link says a lot about how our perceptions of what's acceptable changes with time, even within the same culture.

It seems the only people who think this is crazy are those who already have a beef with Santorum because of political reasons.
Which is usually the case with political diatribe. The people who claim offence the loudest usually already have their agenda firmly in hand.

[Sailor Steve]

I'm putting this separately because I need to. Mookie's link made me think of something related. I have my own thread about the death of my friend Rocky, but posting this here seems apropos. All of our gaming buddies who still live nearby showed up. The wife of one of our members was taking pictures of various of us together when one said "Why don't we get one last picture of all of us together?"

So we posed around the casket for one last shot with Rocky in it. I'm still torn between "morbid" and "cool", and I suspect I always will be.

[Bubblehead1980]

I'm putting this separately because I need to. Mookie's link made me think of something related. I have my own thread about the death of my friend Rocky, but posting this here seems apropos. All of our gaming buddies who still live nearby showed up. The wife of one of our members was taking pictures of various of us together when one said "Why don't we get one last picture of all of us together?"

So we posed around the casket for one last shot with Rocky in it. I'm still torn between "morbid" and "cool", and I suspect I always will be.


There is nothing actually wrong with that.Far cry from bringing a stillborn child home.

[Bubblehead1980]

To be honest, I don't like this anymore than he does. I'm just aware that my opinion is only my opinion, and what I find distasteful someone else might actually find comforting.


That's a good point, and coupled with mookie's link says a lot about how our perceptions of what's acceptable changes with time, even within the same culture.


Which is usually the case with political diatribe. The people who claim offence the loudest usually already have their agenda firmly in hand.

I have a problem with Santorum's mental state.I mentioned in another post I was liking him as an alternative to Romeny until I did some more research into his views and then came this story about the stillborn.

[Bubblehead1980]

Havnt kept up with Santorum or really many recent events to be honest.

Yes... people do sometimes bring home their stillborn babies or babies who die within hours of birth before making further arrangements

this happens. I would likely do the same thing

unfortunately when someone who is in the media spotlight does it its suddenly a weird freakish thing that is frowned on.

his family

his child

his business

its not like they took the body home and went Donner party on it


Goes to his mentality and how he handles tough situations...grief, stress etc. If Santorum was not seeking power, okay he can be a weirdo all he wants but he is seeking the Presidency, it becomes our business if he can't make rational decisions when things are tough.Bringing a dead baby home to "meet" the family is not a rational nor sane decision.Think you would find vast majority of people would agree it was not something one should do.

Santorum like most religious people believes babies are miracles of god or some crap, they are not.Having a child is a wonderful thing but it's not a miracle, its biology, pure and simple.You have sex, your lady gets pregnant, kid comes out 9 months later.Sure it's great thing but it's not some magical thing.Again, mental state of a guy running for President is our business, his behavior and beliefs show someone who is :doh:

[Tribesman]

Hmm tribes, so not rational to suggest something crazy like sending the baby to a funeral home and not taking it home for a play date?
There is nothing irrational and nothing crazy about it. If there was something irrational and crazy then it would be equally irrational and crazy when people to go visit to a corpse at a funeral home.

I know you won't get it, for a measure .....all the other students are wrong, all your teachers are wrong, all the textbooks are wrong, that grieving family is wrong...it never enters what passes for your mind that it is you that is wrong which means it is you who is irrational, or more accurately as the title of your topic says bat**** crazy.

Far cry from bringing a stillborn child home.
There is no difference whatsoever

Think you would find vast majority of people would agree it was not something one should do.

What utter crap:doh:

@Steve
I'm just aware that my opinion is only my opinion, and what I find distasteful someone else might actually find comforting.


That is the point, I have seen many dozens of families go through the same situation and seen the many dozens of very different ways they approached it, each one of them was right and only a pillock would try and claim they were actually wrong.

[1480]

We used to wake people in their own homes, not so long ago.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j33/kbrown081/ghettofuneral.jpg

[Herr-Berbunch]

I think this should've been a poll, then Bubbles would see just how much in the minority he actually is.

It's not news, it's not our business, it doesn't mean Sanotorum is a nutjob (he may be but this has absolutely nothing to do with it!), it's not out of the ordinary.

I know a few people that have suffered this and they still add the childs names when listing the family (cards/presents).

Some parents decide to take their baby out of the hospital for a short while. They may take their baby home or to a place that has special meaning to them. There is no legal reason why you should not do this (except in rare cases when a coroner has ordered a post mortem). Source: The Stillbirth and Neonatal Death charity (SANDS)

[Skybird]

The truth is fine. Your opinion is fine. Your confusing one for the other is not.
Nice one-liner. Stored in memory for eternity. :yeah:

[Sailor Steve]

Nice one-liner. Stored in memory for eternity. :yeah:
Thanks. Aren't the best ones always by accident? I didn't see it coming. :sunny:

[Sailor Steve]

Re-reading this I noticed a couple of things that struck me, in a positive way.

There is nothing irrational and nothing crazy about it. If there was something irrational and crazy then it would be equally irrational and crazy when people to go visit to a corpse at a funeral home.
Excellent point.

There is no difference whatsoever
Again, something I wondered about but wasn't sure of my own feelings on the subject. Reading it out loud, I have to agree.

@Steve

That is the point, I have seen many dozens of families go through the same situation and seen the many dozens of very different ways they approached it, each one of them was right and only a pillock would try and claim they were actually wrong.
Well said.

I think this should've been a poll, then Bubbles would see just how much in the minority he actually is.
But he's not interested in anyone else's opinions. He's right, he has the truth, and you need to learn this.

(he may be but this has absolutely nothing to do with it!)
:rotfl2: Excellent! :rock:

[soopaman2]

No matter the spin this is pretty sick IMHO.

Nice pics from the Victorian age, but we had Negro slavery back then too.

He is trying to hard, catering to the wrong types of folks to win an election.

Cater to me. Wide open in ideology, no real favored leaning.

What will you do Rick? About our debt? About our uncontrolled borders and lax immigration laws? About our standing among nations? About unemployment? About bringing outsourced jobs home? About Cayman Island tax Havens?

Issues that effect the greater good, why is it Republicans in general (and especially this tard) feel a need to attack personal liberties (like abortion, and gay marriage) rather than dealing with the huge issues that effect us all as a nation?

Or am I nieve to expect such behavior from our bought and paid for government?

This irritates me because Mr. Santorum is not an evil man IMHO. He is just not a good fit for the USA

[Buddahaid]

I think what we have here is the reaction from our modern society that has come to feel death is almost unnatural and avoidable. We have become unused to it by the fact that children rarely die and people live much longer, coupled with the typical family unit spanning fewer generations, death has become far less personal and harder to deal with for many of us. We can conveniently hide from almost all death but our own now.

[Penguin]

Except when he chose to make it public business by using it during a political campaign. It's not like some paparazzi snapped a photo. He drew attention to it himself and used it as proof of his pro-life credentials in 2005 and again during the 2008 election cycle.


And this is what I find so disgusting about the whole thing: using a stillborn for his own political agenda.
If he had kept it to himself and some reporter would have found out later, he could have said "So what, it's my private matter how I mourn about a loss!"
However the exploitation of this as a propaganda story makes him look nutty and is a disgrace to the dead baby and shows how far he is willing to go for his own political career.
Well, what else can one expect from a guy who is against contraception:"Yeah, let's ban calenders! Away with thermometers!" :88)

[Tribesman]

And this is what I find so disgusting about the whole thing: using a stillborn for his own political agenda.

But that isn't what the topic was complaining about is it.
If that had been the complaint then just about everyone would be lining up in agreement because quite frankly Santorum is an offensive prick.
Also it wasn't stillborn was it, it died after being born alive so that was misleading right from the start.

[Bilge_Rat]

I agree with Bubblehead1980 on this one. Everyone grieves in their own fashion, but bringing home the body of your dead baby and introducing it to a 4-year old and 6-year child as their "dead brother"? That shows a singular lack of common sense.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

I agree with Bubblehead1980 on this one. Everyone grieves in their own fashion, but bringing home the body of your dead baby and introducing it to a 4-year old and 6-year child as their "dead brother"? That shows a singular lack of common sense.I underlined part which troubles me too in this. I can accept that parents want to keep body nearby them - thats their business and if it helps them to recover then even better. What comes to that "introduction" part of Mr. Santorum's grieving process is what I think to be a bit crazy...

[Tribesman]

Everyone grieves in their own fashion,
So how can you complain then?

That shows a singular lack of common sense.
How is it any different than bringing them to a funeral home or even a cemetary?

[Bilge_Rat]

How is it any different than bringing them to a funeral home or even a cemetary?

A funeral home or a cemetery is a place which a child will only visit on these kinds of occasion. You have time to prepare a child and to explain what death means. If the child does not feel comfortable getting close to the deceased, he can stay away.

The home is usually the place where a child feels the safest. Bringing a body into the home may have an unsettling effect on the child (obviously it depends on the child) and he may associate that memory with his home.

When I was 7, my cousin who was also 7 died. I can still vividly see the image of him in his coffin. Even though I played with him for years before, that is the only memory I have left of him. Death can have a powerful impact when you are young.

of course, that is only my opinion. This is probably the first time I have agreed with Bubblehead1980 on anything. :ping:

[Bubblehead1980]

I think this should've been a poll, then Bubbles would see just how much in the minority he actually is.

It's not news, it's not our business, it doesn't mean Sanotorum is a nutjob (he may be but this has absolutely nothing to do with it!), it's not out of the ordinary.

I know a few people that have suffered this and they still add the childs names when listing the family (cards/presents).

Source: The Stillbirth and Neonatal Death charity (SANDS)


Most people would not want to bring a dead baby home, it's just weird and odd.Santorum's crazy religious beliefs are responsible for this like.Like many religious types, he probably believes babies are a miracle from god or some bs, they are not.A man and a woman have sex, a kid comes out 9 months later.Sure, it's a great thing but it's not a damn miracle, it's biology! That is why the nutty pro lifers are so militant and crazy, they think babies are blessings from god:har:

Nice to read some others agree with me and most people.Also, the argument from some other posters that it's the same as visiting a funeral home, well that argument is garbage.Funeral homes are equipped to deal with dead bodies and prepare them for the services.

Still listing the child's name is just sad, some people just need to let go, well as much as possible.I've had people do this and the first thought in my head is "Are they out of their freaking minds?"

Finslly, it is out business because he is running for President and after Iowa actually became a contender.Whether that lasts or not, we shall see.

[Bubblehead1980]

A funeral home or a cemetery is a place which a child will only visit on these kinds of occasion. You have time to prepare a child and to explain what death means. If the child does not feel comfortable getting close to the deceased, he can stay away.

The home is usually the place where a child feels the safest. Bringing a body into the home may have an unsettling effect on the child (obviously it depends on the child) and he may associate that memory with his home.

When I was 7, my cousin who was also 7 died. I can still vividly see the image of him in his coffin. Even though I played with him for years before, that is the only memory I have left of him. Death can have a powerful impact when you are young.

of course, that is only my opinion. This is probably the first time I have agreed with Bubblehead1980 on anything. :ping:

haha well this is just such a no brainer, can't believe how many people on here disagree with me on this one.Ah well.

[geetrue]

Oh noes. He brought his stillborn child home to mourn rather than throw him in medical waste disposal like a good godless liberal. What a horrible person he is.

Really? This makes him crazy? Have you ever lost a child?

So true it's funny ...

The poor guy has so many against him you wonder who is for him.

Yet he is a man not afraid to say what he thinks.

Ask the gays :woot:

[Tribesman]

haha well this is just such a no brainer
If you have no brain that may be the case.
can't believe how many people on here disagree with me on this one.
Yet you still make silly claims about what "most people" think:doh:

Most people would not want to bring a dead baby home
Prove it, and on top of that prove that it has any relevance whatsoever:doh:

@Bilge rat
A funeral home or a cemetery is a place which a child will only visit on these kinds of occasion.
?????????
You have time to prepare a child and to explain what death means.

Do you really, is that a little chat on the way there or a little chat when you get back from the hospital?
How would any of that be different from a little chat before them seeing the dead body?

Bringing a body into the home may have an unsettling effect on the child (obviously it depends on the child)
And it may not, showing a child a coffin may have an unsettling effect, showing them a graveyard may have an unsettling effect ...so what?

I can still vividly see the image of him in his coffin
Some people don't like open coffins, does that mean people who choose open coffins are bat*** crazy or are the ones with closed coffins the crazies?
Some people don't like bodies being enbalmed, does that make them crazy?
Some people hate having a funeral director do anything apart from supply the box and drive the car, does that make them crazy?

[Bilge_Rat]

Ah Tribesman....

thank god you are there to show us the errors of our ways. relax man, its an internet discussion.

[Herr-Berbunch]

Tomorrow, my three year old daughter is off to see her Great-Grandfather, he died on New Year's Day, she saw him a couple of hours before he died in hospital.

On Friday, she will be at the crematorium, if she doesn't shout out something along the lines of, "Is he burned yet? Have they set him on fire? When do we throw him under that tree?", I'll be most amazed. I also don't care. We've had full and frank (and extremely funny) discussions about death, dying, burial, cremation, embalming, and she will be one of the most informed three year olds I know - we haven't tried to hide any aspect of it from her and have been totally honest, including our ignorance of what happens with his wee. :hmmm:

I hope this, along with her minder taking her to see the grave of a family friend, sets her in good stead for all future deaths she may come across, and not this bury-your-head-in-the-sand-in-the-hope-it'll-never-happen attitude most people (including me, up to a couple of weeks ago) seem to have nowadays.

[Sailor Steve]

This is probably the first time I have agreed with Bubblehead1980 on anything. :ping:
I agree with him on many things. The problem I have is the single-minded self-righteous manner in which he insists on expressing himself. He needs to learn that his opinion is not fact.

[Tribesman]

relax man, its an internet discussion.
If its a discussion then deal with the points raised as your addition to the discussion(while interesting) didn't stand up very well did it.

[Platapus]

I remember in EMT school, we were taught how to baptize dead babies. How stupid and worthless is that?

.....except it is helps the surviving family with their grief and once the kid is dead, it is the family that needs taking care of.

Personally, I would never take a dead kid home. But I must have missed the E-mail where Santorum asked for my opinion on this. :D

[Sailor Steve]

Ah Tribesman....

thank god you are there to show us the errors of our ways. relax man, its an internet discussion.
Unfortunately the OP has yet to have a discussion about anything. Mostly he pontificates.

[Betonov]

Tomorrow, my three year old daughter is off to see her Great-Grandfather, he died on New Year's Day, she saw him a couple of hours before he died in hospital.



That would make him your grandfather or grandfather-in-law. My condolances

[Bilge_Rat]

If its a discussion then deal with the points raised as your addition to the discussion(while interesting) didn't stand up very well did it.

On the contrary, I think they stand up very well.

As a parent, you always hope your children will turn out to be responsible, well adjusted adults. You try to make the right choices and keep your fingers crossed.

In the case of Santorum, you have to wonder if he made that decision because he thought it was the best thing for his children or if he was just following his political/religious ideology:


He and Karen brought Gabriel's body home so their children could "absorb and understand that they had a brother," Santorum says. "We wanted them to see that he was real," not an abstraction, he says. Not a "fetus," either, as Rick and Karen were appalled to see him described -- "a 20-week-old fetus" -- on a hospital form. They changed the form to read "20-week-old baby."

Karen Santorum, a former nurse, wrote letters to her son during and after her pregnancy. She compiled them into a book, "Letters to Gabriel," a collection of prayers, Bible passages and a chronicle of the prenatal complications that led to Gabriel's premature delivery. At one point, her doctor raised the prospect of an abortion, an "option" Karen ridicules. "Letters to Gabriel" also derides "pro-abortion activists" and decries the "infanticide" of "partial-birth abortion," the legality of which Rick Santorum was then debating in the Senate. The book reads, in places, like a call to action.

[CaptainHaplo]

In the case of Santorum, you have to wonder if he made that decision because he thought it was the best thing for his children or if he was just following his political/religious ideology:


I guess it never occured to you that living his religious views - following the theology he says he believes is - could be something that he views as best for himself and his family? I mean - whats the use of believing something if you ignore it in your daily life?

Did it occur to you that he wanted to impress upon his children the values he has - that a premature child is a life - and in this case - a life lost, instead of a blob of cells called a fetus that its ok to chuck out in a trash can?

As a parent - its our responsibility to use life to teach our children. We teach them as best we can. Sometimes its uncomfortable. Sometimes it downright hurts. But that is what love does - it compels us to give them what we believe are the best tools and moral/ethical foundations to succeed. The reality is that you disagree with his morals and ethics, so you have a problem with him passing those on to his children - especially since you can complain about his way of doing it.

[Tribesman]

On the contrary, I think they stand up very well.

Not in the slightest.
They may stand up for you, but that is the whole point you are completely unable to see.
Grief and dealing with death are not really the same for any two people, everyone deals with it in their own way and they are all right, just because their way is different from yours or you don't like it doesn't mean they are wrong in any way whatsoever.

As for your bolded bits that is definately wrong on your part, just as stillborn was the incorrect word to use so is fetus.

[Bilge_Rat]

I guess it never occured to you that living his religious views - following the theology he says he believes is - could be something that he views as best for himself and his family? I mean - whats the use of believing something if you ignore it in your daily life?

so if he believed in polygamy and marrying 13 year old wives, then that would be ok by you?

Did it occur to you that he wanted to impress upon his children the values he has - that a premature child is a life - and in this case - a life lost, instead of a blob of cells called a fetus that its ok to chuck out in a trash can?

now who ever said anything about that.

As a parent - its our responsibility to use life to teach our children. We teach them as best we can. Sometimes its uncomfortable. Sometimes it downright hurts. But that is what love does - it compels us to give them what we believe are the best tools and moral/ethical foundations to succeed. The reality is that you disagree with his morals and ethics, so you have a problem with him passing those on to his children - especially since you can complain about his way of doing it.

yes, I have a problem with zealots trying to brainwash their children with their narrow view of the world. What will mr. Santorum do if his daughter becomes pregnant at 17 because mommy and daddy don't believe in birth control and she decides she really does not want to be a teenage mother?

[mookiemookie]

Did it occur to you that he wanted to impress upon his children the values he has - that a premature child is a life - and in this case - a life lost, instead of a blob of cells called a fetus that its ok to chuck out in a trash can?

But that's a false choice. You're saying the only alternative to bringing a corpse home and introducing it to his children as their brother is to dispose of it like medical waste. That's not true at all.

[Bilge_Rat]

Not in the slightest.
They may stand up for you, but that is the whole point you are completely unable to see.
Grief and dealing with death are not really the same for any two people, everyone deals with it in their own way and they are all right, just because their way is different from yours or you don't like it doesn't mean they are wrong in any way whatsoever.

As for your bolded bits that is definately wrong on your part, just as stillborn was the incorrect word to use so is fetus.

again you make the mistake of confusing your opinion for fact or worse, of even thinking I care what your opinion is.

[Tribesman]

again you make the mistake of confusing your opinion for fact or worse, of even thinking I care what your opinion is
Do you have language problems or just a thought blockage? Perhaps it is both
It seems you are unable to defend your view, reason or contribute and instead slide further into the realm of delusional ignorance where Bubbles resides.

Its not surprising really as the whole point is that there are only opinions in this matter and you and bubbles are both portraying yours as fact.
Your one redeeming feature was that you once used the word "may" but then blew it be going on as if that "may" was "will".
Such a closed mind, you are just the same as the religious zealots you wish to condemn.

Though of course on the latter part of the post you quoted it is very safe to say you are completely 100% wrong as both are very easily and clearly established as facts.

[Hottentot]

again you make the mistake of confusing your opinion for fact or worse, of even thinking I care what your opinion is.

Now there's a healthy foundation for discussion. Surprisingly common too.

[Tribesman]

Give him a chance Hottentot, it would be interesting to know which of the "crazies" he blames for his problem on this issue.
Is it his parents or his aunt and uncle who are at fault?
Maybe it was even the funeral director who was the crazy one .

[CaptainHaplo]

But that's a false choice. You're saying the only alternative to bringing a corpse home and introducing it to his children as their brother is to dispose of it like medical waste. That's not true at all.

No, I am saying that because he did something that is not in the realm of standard behavior today (but that was historically traditional in this as well as many other cultures previously) - people are saying he is bat**** crazy.

Columbus was bat******** crazy. Copernicus was too. The man made a choice to honor his grief and the life that was lost in a way that he felt was most appropriate for he and his family. He felt a life was lost - and he grieved and said a goodbye in his own way. How is that somehow wrong, crazy and worthy of ridicule?

[Takeda Shingen]

No, I am saying that because he did something that is not in the realm of standard behavior today (but that was historically traditional in this as well as many other cultures previously) - people are saying he is bat**** crazy.

Columbus was bat******** crazy. Copernicus was too. The man made a choice to honor his grief and the life that was lost in a way that he felt was most appropriate for he and his family. He felt a life was lost - and he grieved and said a goodbye in his own way. How is that somehow wrong, crazy and worthy of ridicule?

I understand what you are saying, but you're not seriously lumping Ricky Santorum with Columbus and Copernicus, are you?

[CaptainHaplo]

so if he believed in polygamy and marrying 13 year old wives, then that would be ok by you?

There is a rather large difference in choosing a non-standard way of grieving the loss of your child and your example of federal and state illegal actions.

Strawman much? The two are nowhere near comparable since one is a perfectly legal act, while the other has been deemed by society to not only be strange and weird, but also harmful to the victims and illegal.

Do try to use a bit of commone sense once in a while.

Takeda, I am not lumping them together in any way regarding their contributions to society or the like. I am however lumping them together as a comparison of the fact that some people choose to do non-standard things or believe non-standard ways. If we need to make it more "modern" and less impactful, I can do that with the following:

Rick Santorum choose to grieve his own way, and for that he is ridiculed and called crazy. For many decades, society has ridiculed people who made choices to act in ways against the mainstream. One such group is homosexuals. It was not right to make fun of their choices to live their life the way they saw fit - especially if it was in the privacy of their own home. So why is it ok to do so to this man regading his personal choice to grieve in his own home?

Like that example better?