Your turn America

[Oberon]

We've had our mass-culling, now it's your turn.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-16430405

Still, on the up side, at least you have plenty of reserve stuff that you can cull, we ran out of that during the 1990s. :damn:

[GoldenRivet]

no surprises there

[Herr-Berbunch]

Just sell off everything at Davis-Monthan either for scrap or servicable, don't just leave it all there. :nope:

That should cut a hole in the red!

[Schroeder]

What good is a huge army if you can't pay for it? Just look at the red army after the wall came down. Tons of equipment and everything in awful shape. That can't be the answer either, can it?

[GoldenRivet]

he's treating the a symptom... not curing the ailment just like they have all done and will do until there is nothing left

[Ducimus]

So yes, our military will be leaner," Mr Obama told reporters, "but the world must know - the United States is going to maintain our military superiority with armed forces that are agile, flexible and ready for the full range of contingencies and threats."

He sounds like F'ing Rumsfeld.

Edit:
As long as were downsizing (again), i still say, lets yank all those cold war era bases we have dotted all over the damn place that are doing nothing but supporting local economies. Bring some of them back stateside to support our own local economies for a change.

[soopaman2]

He sounds like F'ing Rumsfeld.

Edit:
As long as were downsizing (again), i still say, lets yank all those cold war era bases we have dotted all over the damn place that are doing nothing but supporting local economies. Bring some of them back stateside to support our own local economies for a change.

It always amazes me how we need bases in Germany, but can't afford a space program or social programs for seniors that "need to be cut".

It is common sense for the citizen, but unspeakable for our politicians who are fed by the defense lobbies.

You know what they call "lobbying" in Europe?

Bribery.

[Tribesman]

Does this mean the Chagos Islanders can have their land back?

[magicstix]

The easiest way to fix the defense budget would be to cut out all the waste and fraud, but instead we have a President that has decided to hamstring our ability to fight two wars at a time when both China and Iran are acting more belligerent on the world stage. :-?

[Schroeder]

It always amazes me how we need bases in Germany, but can't afford a space program or social programs for seniors that "need to be cut".

It is common sense for the citizen, but unspeakable for our politicians who are fed by the defense lobbies.

You know what they call "lobbying" in Europe?

Bribery.
You are aware that the airbase in Frankfurt is your main hub for transportation for Iraq and Afghanistan (at least IIRC)?
So some of those bases are of strategic value when you go into other foreign lands again.;)

[magicstix]

You are aware that the airbase in Frankfurt is your main hub for transportation for Iraq and Afghanistan (at least IIRC)?
So some of those bases are of strategic value when you go into other foreign lands again.;)

Most people who whine about US forward deployment bases have little understanding of our military strategy. ;P

[soopaman2]

You are aware that the airbase in Frankfurt is your main hub for transportation for Iraq and Afghanistan (at least IIRC)?
So some of those bases are of strategic value when you go into other foreign lands again.;)

Yes you are right, Rammstein AFB I think it is. (IIRC)


Maybe we have no bussiness in foreign lands with so many of our own hurting. The basic American thinks fiddling about in the ME is bullstuff (schiesse)
Germany is strong, they do not need us anymore. My people need us, not yours, not the French, not English, not Afghani.

Xenophobic no. Isolationist? Perhaps. Or maybe just feel we should be as self absorbed as anyone else.

Europe is strong. Let them bear some of the weight.

[Catfish]

I think 450 billion dollars for the military in one year is not exactly "lean" ?
How much was it before, or are those only the "defence" costs not including offensive .. err .. hardware ?
600 billion for anti terror, additionally. National Defense [sic!] Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2012:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Defense_Authorization_Act_for_Fiscal_Year _2012
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=48574
http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2012/01/02/president-obama-signed-the-national-defense-authorization-act-now-what/

This building of US interrogation campps all over the world basically undermines international law, it seems no one has even noticed that yet. And even without that i feel it is a serious blow against freedom in the US itself.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

I noticed this nice comparison of military forces from BBC page: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-16428133 (I know its a bit simplified).

Some highlights:
UK $63.7bn, 174,000 personnel
Russia $52.7bn, 956,000 personnel
I know that Russia has conscription, lower material costs (fuel, food etc.) and so on but still that comparison doesn't make sense.

USA $739.3bn, 1,569,000 personnel
China $89.9bn, 2,285,000 personnel
I agree with small print (below comparison table) that China's official military budget figure is nonsense. It can't be that low.

[soopaman2]

I noticed this nice comparison of military forces from BBC page: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-16428133 (I know its a bit simplified).

Some highlights:
UK $63.7bn, 174,000 personnel
Russia $52.7bn, 956,000 personnel
I know that Russia has conscription, lower material costs (fuel, food etc.) and so on but still that comparison doesn't make sense.

USA $739.3bn, 1,569,000 personnel
China $89.9bn, 2,285,000 personnel
I agree with small print (below comparison table) that China's official military budget figure is nonsense. It can't be that low.

But for the USA to cut back, would force Europe to step up. As of now Europe cannot afford to step up.

Costs not included in that figure is the USAs UN funding, which we provide a lions share of the funding and ground troops for.

In all fairness Europe has not paid its fair share since 1945. Your cities are not bombed out anymore. and alot of your countries are doing better than us.

Some help?

Not being mean, or "arrogant American man", just saying from a rational standpoint.

(pardon my bluntness)

.
Yes China will always lie. Sun Tzu always did preach deception, it was a running topic in his Art of War.

[Ducimus]

Well, we kinda sorta anointed ourselves as the Worlds Policeman. The reasons of which im not sure, but probably have their roots in the Cold War. At any rate, we've been kind of lingering here as the Worlds Policeman. Times change, people change, maybe that will change too.

edit: Personally id welcome it if we were to long longer be "The Worlds Policeman". I didn't always enjoy being in some 2nd or 3rd world hell hole, presumably for the benefit of some people that i could give less then a (bleep) about.

edit: and I don't mean the American people. In the end, nothing i did mattered where the US people are concerned.

[Rockstar]

But for the USA to cut back, would force Europe to step up. As of now Europe cannot afford to step up.


Step up to what? Nobody, not even the Red Menace has the cash to start or support a major conflict.

[Herr-Berbunch]

Does this mean the Chagos Islanders can have their land back?

Don't you mean back to the British, and then we can hand it back. And if we can say it was all our idea and come away with some dignity, all the better. :-?

[Kongo Otto]

But for the USA to cut back, would force Europe to step up. As of now Europe cannot afford to step up.
The question is what do you mean exactly with "step up"? The times of big Tank and Infantry Armies are over, todays asymetrical warfare needs highly mobile special forces. Then the question arise for what purpose should those European Nations step up their military?

In all fairness Europe has not paid its fair share since 1945. Your cities are not bombed out anymore. and alot of your countries are doing better than us.
Oh realy? may i remind you about the British Army and the Greeks who fought with the US together in Korea? And how about Desert Strom and Afgahnistan? Ah i forgot you fight your wars always alone.
I found it rather funny, that the Americans who told us Germans that we Germans are such bad militarists for the last 75 years, are now demanding a step up. Why should we? we dont have a Problem with the Iranians, not to mention what the reasons for you Iranian Problem are. Does it realy make you wonder that these people hate you, after you financed one of the most sinister villains (aka Mohammad Reza Pahlavi) down there for decades. It had a reasons why Khomeini came back to Iran back in 1979.

Yes China will always lie. Sun Tzu always did preach deception, it was a running topic in his Art of War.
Show me a politician whos not lying and i show you an idiot. :03:

[nikimcbee]

Okay, if we're cutting the military, let's start with all the bases in the blue states.:haha:

[magicstix]

Okay, if we're cutting the military, let's start with all the bases in the blue states.:haha:

Meh don't worry. It's not the first time our military has been cut. We did it before WW2 and back in the mid 90s up until 2001. Everything turned out great then right? :roll:

...I just hope I survive these cuts; at least the money will go to welfare that I can be on instead, right? :03:

[Morts]

Meh don't worry. It's not the first time our military has been cut. We did it before WW2 and back in the mid 90s up until 2001. Everything turned out great then right? :roll:

...I just hope I survive these cuts; at least the money will go to welfare that I can be on instead, right? :03:
Yeah, WW2 happened because the US didnt have a big enough army, and so did 9/11.....right :damn:

[nikimcbee]

Sadly they are not going to cut overall spending. They are just going to spend it someplace else:dead:. Sure, the military is bloated, but nobody wants their sacred cow cut.:dead:

[magicstix]

Yeah, WW2 happened because the US didnt have a big enough army, and so did 9/11.....right :damn:

Feel free to cite anywhere in my post where I said anything to that effect.

[magicstix]

Sadly they are not going to cut overall spending. They are just going to spend it someplace else:dead:. Sure, the military is bloated, but nobody wants their sacred cow cut.:dead:

I'd tend to debate that, given that the railgun and free electron laser have both been cancelled, as has the airborne laser (which granted was a test bed). The LCS is nothing more than a floating hull since they've cancelled all of the mission modules.

The problem is that contractors need to be held accountable for failures, which isn't happening. There is a lot of "you've sunk 5 million into this project that doesn't work already, so what's another 1 million?" Those extra millions tend to kill projects that are actually working and accomplishing things.

[nikimcbee]

Just look at the bright side. Think of all of the jobs obama can create after we get attacked by China, when we have to turn on our war economy again.:haha::dead:


I created a million manufacturing jobs! Vote for me in 2016.

[nikimcbee]

I'd tend to debate that, given that the railgun and free electron laser have both been cancelled, as has the airborne laser (which granted was a test bed). The LCS is nothing more than a floating hull since they've cancelled all of the mission modules.

The problem is that contractors need to be held accountable for failures, which isn't happening. There is a lot of "you've sunk 5 million into this project that doesn't work already, so what's another 1 million?" Those extra millions tend to kill projects that are actually working and accomplishing things.

We can just outsource the work to China, they can make our weapons cheaper:har::dead:.

[magicstix]

Just look at the bright side. Think of all of the jobs obama can create after we get attacked by China, when we have to turn on our war economy again.:haha::dead:


I created a million manufacturing jobs! Vote for me in 2016.

The problem is those factories don't exist anymore...

China is specifically building their military to counter us. They've said this publicly. They're engaged in more espionage against us than any other nation, they're bullying their neighbors, and we're not taking them seriously enough, even with Obama's (thankfully) shifted focus to the Asian region.

[nikimcbee]

The problem is those factories don't exist anymore...

China is specifically building their military to counter us. They've said this publicly. They're engaged in more espionage against us than any other nation, they're bullying their neighbors, and we're not taking them seriously enough, even with Obama's (thankfully) shifted focus to the Asian region.

That's what struck me as funny. We are trimming down the military, so we can challenge China.

wait for it...

:har::har::har:
They are ramping up.

We are so far in debt to them, one of these days, their gunna want their money. I say we sell them Kali-fornia. Make the boarder their problem.:haha:

[magicstix]

We can just outsource the work to China, they can make our weapons cheaper:har::dead:.

The problem with Chinese outsourcing is you get the quality you pay for, which is why some factories are starting to come home to the US and others are starting to move to other third world countries like Vietnam and India.

If we can hold out a bit China might collapse on itself, it wouldn't be the first time. The problem is that on the way down there's a very strong possibility China will resort to war. They've whipped up a patriotic fervor and imperial ambition that is pushing the Politburo to write checks their military can't cash.

[nikimcbee]

So we'll all have smurfy weapons.:haha:

[Platapus]

As long as were downsizing (again), i still say, lets yank all those cold war era bases we have dotted all over the damn place that are doing nothing but supporting local economies. Bring some of them back stateside to support our own local economies for a change.

I could agree with that. :up:

If a country really wants our base there, we can talk terms. :yep:

[Skybird]

You know what they call "lobbying" in Europe?

Bribery.
No, the official language calls it either "justice", "responsibility" or "solidarity".

In Brussel, insiders and observers say per member of the EU parliament there are 35-50 lobbyists.

So corruption it all is today, yes.


And a crime against the young generation expected to pay for and repair all this mess - or getting buried under it. It'S all snowballing, it's all a Ponzi scheme. Question is not whether it will collapse, but when.

[Skybird]

I copy this over from another thread I started in ignorrance of this one:

American debt roughly equals the yearly GDP of the American economy, "white" debts (excluding hidden implicated costs from future debts that are already designed to arise from future pensions etc) mostly get fixed at a value beyond 15 trillion now. In other words: the US government and society runs on tic and not by its own savings and economic-financial self-maintenance. If the debts of the future that already are unavoidable from pensions becoming payed out for current employees get calculated into the formula, and I take the German example for such a calculation, these 15 trillions can be multiplied by a factor of roughly 3.5 .

It is in this light the announced plans for cutting the defence budget by just half a trillion over the next ten years must be seen. Army forces have grown from 482 thousand to 570 thousand in the past decade, and now shall be cut to 520 thousand and in the longer run probbaly to below 490 thousand. Asia gains more attention, probably at the cost of European employements. German media said the air force needs to expect the loss of several hundred manned aircraft, but I wonder if this vague hint is real or just got something lost in translation. The nuclear arsenal, still four times above what the latest treaties aim for, shall be more tailored and redcued, too, and the ability for cyberwarfare and drone warfare and operating by special forces should be increased, at the cost of conventionel forces.

I have read nothing about navy budget plans.

Health insurrance and pensions for vets are likely to be reduced sooner or later, too. Which is a shame when they risked their lives and lost their health.

This sounds all nice and well, but let'S face it: the size of the US military still is much much bigger than what the US could afford by its own wealth and economic power. This is countered by the question whether it is desirable to really reduce the US military to a state of conventionel global impotence, eventually.

It is a dilemma, and I have no answer to it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...y.html?hpid=z4 (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/obama-announces-new-military-approach/2012/01/05/gIQAFWcmcP_story.html?hpid=z4)

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/06/op...n.html?_r=1&hp (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/06/opinion/a-leaner-pentagon.html?_r=1&hp)
__________________
The rest of the world lies as well. Do not believe it either.

[Ducimus]

The problem is those factories don't exist anymore...

.

It occurs to me if we had enough national pride and patriot ferver to instigate a campaign of "Buy American" amongst our own society, and follow through on it, we would put the hurt lock on china and never have to fire a shot. Our constant consumption of Chinese goods is what's propelling them to be the next world power, and us to be the declining one.

However getting our society united behind such an effort would require cooperation from all classes in all walks of life, including the fat cats. That level of cooperation will NEVER happen. Human greed and desire for profit is a far greater in this day and age of international corporations and globalism, then patriotism and loyalty to ones country.

[Platapus]

It occurs to me if we had enough national pride and patriot ferver to instigate a campaign of "Buy American" amongst our own society, and follow through on it, we would put the hurt lock on china and never have to fire a shot. Our constant consumption of Chinese goods is what's propelling them to be the next world power, and us to be the declining one.

However getting our society united behind such an effort would require cooperation from all classes in all walks of life, including the fat cats. That level of cooperation will NEVER happen. Human greed and desire for profit is a far greater in this day and age of international corporations and globalism, then patriotism and loyalty to ones country.

But Buffy and Sean simply must have that latest trendy toy/outfit and mumsie does not want to pay American prices.

As a capitalist, I can understand that. The whole idea of capitalism is for the buyer to get the mostest for the leastest and for the seller to deliver the leastest for the mostest. Where they can reach an agreement is called successful free market.

What we need in the US is a truly cheap lower labour class. But socially that ain't happening any more.

[Takeda Shingen]

Sadly they are not going to cut overall spending. They are just going to spend it someplace else:dead:. Sure, the military is bloated, but nobody wants their sacred cow cut.:dead:

Remember when they were taking the axe to the Department of Education? You were all about that. Now you're kicking and screaming over cuts to the Department of Defense. Sacred cows indeed.

[TarJak]

Remember when they were taking the axe to the Department of Education? You were all about that. Now you're kicking and screaming over cuts to the Department of Defense. Sacred cows indeed.

http://www.funnyfur.com/ProductImages/pets/2010/july/za548_img.jpg
Moo?

[nikimcbee]

http://www.funnyfur.com/ProductImages/pets/2010/july/za548_img.jpg
Moo?

Vishnu?

[nikimcbee]

Remember when they were taking the axe to the Department of Education? You were all about that. Now you're kicking and screaming over cuts to the Department of Defense. Sacred cows indeed.

:har:

No, just cutting the fluffy stuff.:yeah:

[Takeda Shingen]

:har:

No, just cutting the fluffy stuff.:yeah:

Sure. Reading and writing is fluff now too, along with the arts and civil rights. You've got an interesting world view there, niki.

[Blood_splat]

This country stopped dreaming. It is now quarterly reports and bottom lines.

[Takeda Shingen]

This country stopped dreaming. It is now quarterly reports and bottom lines.

I would argue the opposite. This country is still dreaming. It is dreaming that it can afford these bloated defense budgets. It is dreaming that it can still afford to act in it's self-appointed role as the world's police force. It is dreaming that pet projects and sacred cows can be retained while the nation goes down the toilet. America is still dreaming, and it needs to wake up. Close the bases, bring the troops home, cut the budget.

[nikimcbee]

Sure. Reading and writing is fluff now too, along with the arts and civil rights. You've got an interesting world view there, niki.

How about you hold a bake sale then?

[Takeda Shingen]

How about you hold a bake sale then?

You gonna bake for it, big guy? Some special Big Niki surprise?

[nikimcbee]

You gonna bake for it, big guy? Some special Big Niki surprise?

Don't need a bake sale here, thanks for the offer.:yeah:

[Takeda Shingen]

Don't need a bake sale here, thanks for the offer.:yeah:

Sure ya do. Bread for bombs. You could make a ton of cash and then have all the crazy oversea contingency operations you want. But the taxpayer gravy train has to stop.

Big Niki's bakesale. I like it. :yeah:

[nikimcbee]

Sure ya do. Bread for bombs. You could make a ton of cash and then have all the crazy oversea contingency operations you want. But the taxpayer gravy train has to stop.

Big Niki's bakesale. I like it. :yeah:

Tax payer gravytrain.:haha:

[Takeda Shingen]

Tax payer gravytrain.:haha:

Does the defense budget come from taxpayer dollars? Then it's a gravy train.