TMO 2.5 Difficulty [Archive] - SUBSIM Radio Room Forums

TorpexXIII

01-01-12, 07:04 PM

HHmmm...

I havent been on in a while and noted with intererst that there was a TMO 2.5, which I downloaded.

I like the new version. Great detail, graphics etc. I do have problem that I want to sort out. I know I risk getting all the "your just not very good comments" but...

In my very humble opinion the enemy escorts, patrol craft etc are FAR too good! An example is as follows. ( I have maximum difficulty settings as I like the realism)

Perfect end round approach on small convoy. Settle into a great firing position (a tad far but Im woried about these super escorts!!!). Around 2500 yards away. I fire whilst the convoy is still infront of me and about 20 degrees to my port. I fire a spread of four torpedoes and immedietly dive and turn away. All of this is done on ahead slow and silent running. I score two hits and hear noises of a breaking up freighter. By the time the single auxilliry sub chaser escort is approching to about 1000 yards Im well below my test depth at 350ft and under a thermal layer at about 200ft. I slow to 1 knot have got away from the attack site. The subchaser (yes using active sonar) pings all the way in drops a perfect couple of charges. Prior to the commencing chaos you could have heard a pin drop in my sub. Yes I know active sonar will pick my sub up however silent I am but Im deep and under a layer. HOW did my enemy know exactly where to look. Anyway there now commmences a four hour depth charging from my new best friend. I evade and only pick up minor damage. I use a mix of hard turns with full speed and then back down to 1 knot with plenty of direction changing. My escort NEVER fails to lose me even after I dive to 400ft using the same tactics. After five hours he scores a direct hit and turns my nice shiny sub into a squished can.
Baring in mind that this was 1942 and according to my history intel the Japs should have had poor equipment and bad tactics at this point regarding ASW. Tell that to this guy!!!

Anyway anyone else with any similar? I think the escorts are just a tad too good.... Also can anyone tell me how to dumb them down a bit? Another mini mod?

Your thoughts fellow skippers...

PS I am a MASSIVE TMO fan.

PPS. I have started x3 carreers now and all ended pretty much the same way. If Im detected by an enemy escort Im dead meat....

Soviet Creeper

01-01-12, 08:53 PM

Well, if your attacking in calm seas, that makes it quite easy for them to get you. That may be your problem

donna52522

01-01-12, 10:05 PM

Were you firing Mk 14's, there wakes points both ways. I had just passed an escort at 650 yards at a depth of 24ft (semi decks awash) doing 2/3 speed, at night of course. I think the escorts detection is the same as the previous TMO's with the exception that their visual detection has been lessened, especially at night it seems.

You may have run across and escort with an Expert AI crew setting.

Hylander_1314

01-02-12, 01:09 AM

In my very humble opinion the enemy escorts, patrol craft etc are FAR too good! An example is as follows. ( I have maximum difficulty settings as I like the realism)

Page 10 of the PDF manual,

Artificial Intelligence
The games AI has more sensitive sensor settings then in the stock game, and has one philosophy in mind. That being, attacking a convoy, and not getting depth charged to some degree, is anti climatic, and boring. The adjustments to the AI, are aimed to address that shortcoming in the stock game.

Be warned, newer players may find evasion in TMO a daunting task, while the seasoned submarine simulation fan may find things too easy. Opinions on the AI in TMO will vary greatly, depending on the users experience level.

Side note: night surface attacks which weren't very feasible in the stock game, are now a very good option to consider.

How far an AI unit can visually see depends on the unit type. Merchants are on the lower end of thescale, followed by warships such as destroyers, followed by capitol warships, which are followed by aircraft, which see the farthest.

I think there was an AI mod that made it very easy to escape the Japanese DDs and escort vessels, but I can't seem to locate it. :hmmm:

TorpexXIII

01-02-12, 10:23 AM

Cheers guys, thanks for help/advice. Perhaps Im unluckily getting good escorts each time. Yes they were Mk14's so thats why as soon as I fired I ran. It just seems odd that they never seem to go for the firing position just straight for me every time!!! LOL

Ill keep testing but Ive also dropped to 1kt speed, been below a layer and at 400ft and they just have me in contact constantly. Im all for tough escorts but it seems these guys have 2012 sonar equipment! :ping:

PPPPS...

I think that perhaps they should have stock detection levels for the early years as its a historical fact that the IJN ASW effort had poor tactics and equipment to begin with. The IJN put very little resource into ASW tactics and equipment at the start of the war as they almost completely discounted the Allied submarine threat. So it follows that the escorts performance should be a little poorer if not crap in the early years of the campaign.

Armistead

01-02-12, 11:22 AM

It's a balance of tactics. Many of us complain it's still not hard enough.
I can still go out and sink unrealistic tonnage. Once you learn how the AI reacts, it's fairly easy to deal with it.

Trust me, play it for a few months, you'll start wanting more difficultly as you learn the AI.

Fish40

01-02-12, 11:55 AM

You may want to give RFB a try. This Mod is geared more towards "realism" than exciting gameplay. Enemy Destroyers will not have super abilities and hunt you relentlessly. Truth be told, Japanese ASW especially in the early part of the war, was lacking. They didn'y have radar until late in the war. If you listen to the live recording of the Sealion's attack on the Kongo, you could clearly get a picture of what I mean. You could hear crewmen commenting on the misguided depthcharge attack which followed. The Japanese were depthcharging in the completely opposite area of where the sub was. They had no clue where the sub was. Later on, with better equipment and tactics, the Japanese were able to mount a more aggressive counter attack.

My intention was not to badmouth any Mod or anyone's hard work here. Everyone is entitled to their own method of gameplay. This is just my own opinion, so please put away the flamethrowers:timeout:

Hylander_1314

01-02-12, 12:00 PM

Yep! What Armistead said!

What really makes it interesting, is when you get the balao boat, and keeping her trim below 600ft. You can run silent, but you will start to sink deeper and will need to figure out what speed at depths passed 600 will keep you levelled off. It is easier to lose the dds at greater depths, but it's a tradeoff, because you have to run at slightly higher speeds, which makes more noise. The upside, is that it takes longer for ashcans to get down to your depth, so you can usually outrun them at more moderate speeds, preserving battery power.

Just give yourself some more time to get used to it again. And if need-be, until you find out what works, use the external view, F12 to see what's going on. Without 3D sound, it's hard to figure out exactly where the dds are coming at you from, where if you had sounds reflecting the position of the charging escort, you could make the appropiate turning manuevers.

strafemike

01-02-12, 01:42 PM

Thnx for the advice ppl, had the same problem here!Never able to stay alive!
Have a happy new year lads!

TorpexXIII

01-02-12, 04:13 PM

Cheers again guys. Im going to keep going and I may try RFB. Ive just read SILENT RUNNING by J F Calvert and I agree with the comments below. The IJN ASW was crap at the start so it would be awesome if the toughness of the escorts went up as the campaign progressed. Again as already said I do take my hat off to all the hard work thats gone into modding this game. It really is amazing.

WernherVonTrapp

01-02-12, 04:42 PM

Before you make the jump to RFB, just know that you can set the difficulty level in TMO just like you do in the regular game. I always choose "Normal" and have my realism level set to 75%. This way, you can still play TMO and not have to worry about elite crews always manning the ASW ships.
http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/b456/archangel501/Smileys/1ba0b534.gif

jldjs

01-02-12, 05:03 PM

Try the Easier AI mod for TMO. I've used it with TMO versions 2.1, 2.2, and 2.5.

Mescator

01-02-12, 05:36 PM

TorpexXIII

01-02-12, 06:41 PM

Id like to try out the easier escort MOD for 2.5. Where can I find it? I did have a look!?

Hylander_1314

01-02-12, 09:08 PM

I was looking for it the other night myself, to post here, but couldn't find it either.

TorpX

01-02-12, 09:28 PM

Hylander_1314

01-02-12, 09:35 PM

Does RFB let you take the boat deeper than the test depth redline? Just curious is all.

TorpX

01-02-12, 09:43 PM

The Renegade

01-02-12, 09:48 PM

Id like to try out the easier escort MOD for 2.5. Where can I find it? I did have a look!?

I'd recommend asking in the TMO thread, perhaps someone there might have some luck! You might even get a response from the all knowing Ducimus! Who KNOWS what could happen?? :O:

I can tell exactly what you're going through though. Playing TMO is a huge wakeup call, and I've already had to start another career. I attacked a convoy of three Huge passenger liners. Smacked one with 3 torps, another with one, and while I was stunned, gazing at the first one explode and sink the destroyer came over to me and plopped a load onto my head. I was still at periscope depth.... :wah:

That Easier Escort mod would be PERFECT for all the people trying to ease into the harsh reality of TMO. Cause I mean, you don't wanna miss on everything else TMO has to offer. Although I gotta try RFB too, goodness me. Anywho, good luck!

** I DID see it mentioned in a random post but the file is missing from Gamefront. Anyone know about this?? http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=182866&highlight=easier+TMO+escorts

Armistead

01-03-12, 02:21 AM

I could be wrong Wernher, but i believe that only relates to realism settings, not escort difficulty.

That would be correct.....

TorpexXIII

01-03-12, 06:10 AM

OK. Ill try and keep this brief.

Sighted a small convoy of three ships. One merchant and two smaller vessels zigging, one behind and one in front of the merchant. All are heading on a mean course of about 200-210 ( approx SSW)

Position approx 17.07N 119.16E (about 180 miles NW of Manilla) Time 2030hrs. Date Nov 4th 1942 (What were IJN ASW abilities at this time..!?Anyway....) Weather is clear sea state is choppy.

I get into position about 2500 yds SE of the target. No escorts showing any signs of detecting me and all are still zigging. I am already dived, at battle stations and on silent running. Im in SS185 USS Snapper Test depth of a meagre 250ft !!

At this range I fire a spread of four torpedoes and immedietly dive at one knot to 248ft. Whilst on the way down I hear two explosions followed by noises of failing bulkheads (always sad) Ive sunk the merchant Tyohei Maru. Time now 2305hrs. Before I fired my torps I ID'd the escorts as destroyer types.

I continued toward the dying Maru and away from the firing position at 2/3 ahead. No pinging but escorts are closing fast. How they know the firing position that accurately is beyond me. Baring in mind its dark and Im sure the Maru had only a vague idea if any about the direction the torps came from let alone the exact firing position. Then managed to radio this to the escorts whilst abandoning ship!!!

Anyway...

The inevitable perfect homing skills of the escorts bring them right above me. ( I had slowed to 1kt before they got close) There then follows three hours of depth charging. ( I know some went on for far far longer ) But whilst this is going on I use fast and slow tactics. A maximum depth of 250 feet. I keep a low bow or stern on profile (as much as is possible) I kept my revs (when not dodging charges) at about 90 (1kt) There was also a thermal at about 170ft

The escorts never once broke contact and looked like they had perfect accuracy AND depth on EVERY depth charge!!!!

I dived to 350 ft and still the same I even got a close call and got my stern tubes damaged. This went on for another hour.

I then (with sweat pouring) dived to 405 ft and ducked and weaved for another hour. FINALLY I broke contact and got away to the NW.

I love a good fight as much as the next man but I question the accuracy of the enemy to judge the firing position and also the accuracy of the follwoing attacks.

Did mk14's really leave a trail of bubbles from the firing position to the target that stayed bubbling away on the surface for minutes showing the exact firing position (AND IN THE DARK!!!!). Then could that Maru get the info to the escorts (they were surely too far away to see my glowing Mk14 trail in the dark?) whilst being a sinking fireball!!??

Ahhh...enough of my rant... I got the kill and got away but I read in US histories that some subs actually went Destroyer hunting!!! Not an option for me at present!!!

PS I say all the above with the greatest respect to the TMO teams as I do LOVE their work but Id love to see a reassesment of the IJN ASW capabilities. Esp early war years...

PPS I have put an entry on the modders forum to look at these entries. ANYONE FOUND THAT MOD THAT DUMBS DOWN THE ESCORTS????!!!

Yours, Commanding Officer USS Snapper (SS185)

:nope:

Fish40

01-03-12, 08:45 AM

Here's another little tidbit of info. from Wikipedia:

Pacific theater
In the Pacific, Japanese depth charge attacks initially proved fairly unsuccessful against U.S. and British submarines. Unless caught in shallow water, a U.S. submarine commander could normally dive to a deeper depth in order to escape destruction.
The deficiencies of Japanese depth-charge tactics were revealed in a press conference held by U.S. Congressman (http://www.subsim.com/wiki/United_States_House_of_Representatives) Andrew J. May (http://www.subsim.com/wiki/Andrew_J._May), a member of the House Military Affairs Committee (http://www.subsim.com/wiki/United_States_House_Committee_on_Armed_Services) who had visited the Pacific theater and received many intelligence and operational briefings. Incredibly, May mentioned the highly sensitive fact that American submarines had a high survivability rate because Japanese depth charges were fuzed (http://www.subsim.com/wiki/Fuze) to explode at too shallow a depth.
Various press associations sent this leaked news story over their wires, compounding the danger, and many newspapers (including one in Honolulu, Hawaii (http://www.subsim.com/wiki/Honolulu,_Hawaii)) published it. Soon, Japanese forces were resetting their depth charges to explode at a more effective average depth of 75 m (250 feet), to the detriment of American submariners. Vice Admiral Charles A. Lockwood (http://www.subsim.com/wiki/Charles_A._Lockwood), commander of the U.S. submarine fleet in the Pacific, later estimated that May's revelation cost the United States Navy as many as ten submarines and 800 seamen killed in action (http://www.subsim.com/wiki/Killed_in_action).[31] (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/#cite_note-30)

Jan Kyster

01-03-12, 08:50 AM

Id like to try out the easier escort MOD for 2.5...:hmmm: 2.5 N/A, but I have this one for 2.2

Test at own risk... not yet knowing what Duci did to the visuals :D

http://www.mediafire.com/?17xvyqvy7alba3k

WernherVonTrapp

01-03-12, 08:52 AM

That would be correct.....http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/b456/archangel501/Smileys/f764e7df.gifAhh, OK. I guess I made an inaccurate presumption there. I rarely ever get pinged, let alone DCed, so I just equated that with my in-game difficulty settings.
http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/b456/archangel501/Smileys/6515eb18.gif

TorpexXIII

01-03-12, 10:26 AM

Thanks for dumb and dumber mod. Ill try it out....

Cheers gents.

( Cant seem to download from link. Just get this competition link......urgh...)

Lannes

01-03-12, 07:50 PM

I don't know how much they have in common, but the best training I had for TMO was countless hours of GWX for SH3. :salute:

jldjs

01-03-12, 08:14 PM

Thanks for dumb and dumber mod. Ill try it out....

Cheers gents.

( Cant seem to download from link. Just get this competition link......urgh...)

HMCS provided the Easier AI Mod. PM him and maybe he can provide it again.
Here is the doc'n he provided;
"Easier AI for TMO
--------------
AI Passive detection not as accute.
Easier to evade active sonar via depth
Single engine planes no longer detect shallow submerged objects.

//changes from TMO 2.0

sim.cfg
------------
Visual ->surfaceFactor -> from 30 to 40
Hydrophone -> noisefactor -> from 0.35 to 0.5

AI_sensors.dat
---------------
Type93-1A -> Max Elevation -> from 115 to 110
Type93-3A -> Max Elevation -> from 115 to 110
Type93-5A -> Max Elevation -> from 115 to 110

AI_VisualSensors.dat
AirS_Visual -> MinSUrface -> from -2.2 to 0.1"

Hylander_1314

01-03-12, 08:35 PM

Ahhh...enough of my rant... I got the kill and got away but I read in US histories that some subs actually went Destroyer hunting!!! Not an option for me at present!!!

I go DD hunting all the time! Because of that, I have yet to join the 100k sunk in one mission club, but I have a score of 35 DDs and other assorted escorts so far. I think I have one or 2 of those goofy little gunboats from escaping a couple harbor photo-recon missions.

Nice thing about DDs, and other escorts, except for the Akizuki type, the others go down with one fish. The Akizuki can sometimes take a second to coax them beneath the waves.

So either I'm very brave, or very foolish!. But I do get my share of depth chargings! Best way to keep them coming at you, is go to flank speed, and don't be on silent running. Once a merchant or larger warship takes a hit, they know there's a sub around somewhere. Have yor stern tubes ready, and use the "Q" key to open the tubes. Have your stern facing them, prefferably heading away from the recent action. Depending on the time of the war, set your torpedo depth accordingly. Be patient, Draw them in! If you set your scope so it's just above the surface so no water splashes or runs off it, they usualy won't fire any guns at you.

The best distance to fire at them is between 500 and 600 yards. Anywhere in there does the trick. But you also need to use fast speed settings on the torpedoes too.

By the time they react, it's usually way too late.

If you do it right, you can sometimes get 2 of them before having to scramble for the deeper regions. Once you get your preferred depth, then go silent, and make whatever moves you have to do to shake them off.

I like DD hunting personally! Kinda reminds me of bear hunting with a flintlock. Used to love doin' that too!

CCIP

01-03-12, 09:02 PM

One more thought, and maybe someone else can corroborate this:

I find TMO+RSRD easier than TMO for escorts, and I suspect a large part of it is because the skill rating of escorts is set lower in RSRD, which definitely affects their behaviour.

You might want to give RSRD a try in that case. But if you already use that and it's too difficult, disregard. I actually haven't tried TMO 2.5 yet, but I was under the impression that Ducimius hadn't really changed the AI side of it that much between 2.2 and 2.5

CCIP

01-04-12, 12:13 AM

Oh, and another thing: I think TheDarkWraith's DC water disturbance mod can also ease things up. You should give that one a try, as far as I understand it does not interfere with TMO (other than make them temporarily deaf after depth charge explosions).

Hylander_1314

01-04-12, 08:45 AM

Yes, TDW's Water Disturbance, and progressing damage from firw mod for ships and planes are good ones too.

The Water Disturbance mod gives you a 10 to 20 second breater because of what the DCs would do to the water in RL.

The fire damage mod helps with ships and planes that would otherwise go along their merry way as if no damage or little was done. Especially planes.

mido

01-04-12, 11:42 AM

WernherVonTrapp

01-04-12, 11:54 AM

I find TMO+RSRD easier than TMO for escorts, and I suspect a large part of it is because the skill rating of escorts is set lower in RSRD, which definitely affects their behaviour.

Ahhhh, that's probably the reason I have survived TMO thus far. I am running it with RSRDC.http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/b456/archangel501/Smileys/f764e7df.gif

Hylander_1314

01-04-12, 12:40 PM

Try this link Mido,

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=181540&highlight=water+disturbance+mod

Check out his Gamefront page, as the ship plane fire damage mod should be there too.

Armistead

01-04-12, 12:48 PM

Ahhhh, that's probably the reason I have survived TMO thus far. I am running it with RSRDC.http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/b456/archangel501/Smileys/f764e7df.gif

It's still fairly easy to edit the RSRD crew ratings with notepad, just a lil time consuming.

BernieP2

01-04-12, 02:50 PM

Hi,

Back after a while not playing SH IV -TMO 2 + RSRD.

Understand Ducimus has continued to tweak!... TMO 2.5 is available - wonderful.

Great news. Can anyone point me to an upgrade list ... e.g. what's new different, etc. In addition to RSRD I also have other mods - 1440 screensize for maps, and Max Optics mods. Don't want to get messed up by double installing anything.

I'm planning on upgrading and also using MultipleSH IV mod to have different versions working at once.

Bernie

Hylander_1314

01-04-12, 03:11 PM

Bernie, if you go to the SH4 Mods Workshop, the TMO thread on the first page, has a link to the Manual for 2.5.

Also has all the links you will need to download the mod.

Make sure to read it through though. There are optional mods Ducimus includes.

Metric Speedchart Nomograpg

Aft Deckguns - Choose if you want fore or aft deckguns, and live with your choice, as the game has a bug from the original stock that doesn't like it if you try to switch between them

Alternate SJ Radar Performance

Alternate Engine Sounds

Sample Emblem

Stock Gramaphone

Optional SubTextures by Fooshin

There is also an option to play with a pseudo Narwal boat, and I think there is something else that I am not remembering at the moment.

Stoli151

01-05-12, 12:04 AM

TorpexXIII,

I would consider trying RFB. The escorts are not super-capable. At least not early in the war. If you play at high realism, without map contacts, or external cams, it can still be challanging.

I really did like RFB also as well as TMO but last time I played RFB you were invisible to the enemy on the surface at night. Did this ever get fixed? I mean you could bump into an escort and it would not notice you unless you opened fire on it. Once I found this out the mod became no fun, it was too easy to just do a night surface attack on anything, unless it was late enough for the escorts or capital ships to have radar. In the daytime things seemed to work as they should. The only workaround was to take the environment folders out of the mod. The odd thing is nobody but me and a few others seemed to notice this. I wonder if it was just some kind of game settings issue? I hoped back then somebody that designed the mod could give me an answer but I think they were burned out on working on it. Too bad really I thought it was an excellent concept for a mod. If you just could fix that issue(if I'm not crazy and am not the only one having it) and take the sinking physics thing out of the mod it would be pretty excellent. I loved the sub damage model in RFB no more trading blows with DD's on the surface one hit from a large caliber round and you weren't making it back to port . Even a lucky shot from a merchant with a large deck gun could finish you if the pressure hull was breached, pretty realistic in my opinion. But when I'm up for a challenge I love TMO I hardly ever make it back to port and it's more of a finished product in my opinion.

TorpX

01-05-12, 12:30 AM

I really did like RFB also as well as TMO but last time I played RFB you were invisible to the enemy on the surface at night. Did this ever get fixed? I mean you could bump into an escort and it would not notice you unless you opened fire on it. Once I found this out the mod became no fun, it was too easy to just do a night surface attack on anything.
I have not made that many night surface attacks, but on at least two occasions when I did, I was spotted. Perhaps, what you describe is possible, under certain circumstances, but I don't think it is typical. It may be partly due to design limitations of the game. I have read of similer complaints to yours about SH 3, so maybe it is a problem of the game engine being oversimplified in this regard. Usually, people complain that it is too difficult to get close at night.

Stoli151

01-05-12, 12:00 PM

I have not made that many night surface attacks, but on at least two occasions when I did, I was spotted. Perhaps, what you describe is possible, under certain circumstances, but I don't think it is typical. It may be partly due to design limitations of the game. I have read of similer complaints to yours about SH 3, so maybe it is a problem of the game engine being oversimplified in this regard. Usually, people complain that it is too difficult to get close at night.

After posting last night I decided to give RFB another go it seems from the few missions I played that the April patch seems to be the culprit. Sometimes I would be within a couple thousand yards of a destroyer during the day on the surface and it would not notice me. I think it may have something to do with fog not being rendered properly. I would see a clear day where the AI was being restricted by "the fog". If I reran the same mission without the patch I could see the fog and not the DD until we got close then he opened fire as he should. One other issue seemed to be the escorts had problems dealing with me if I was at periscope depth. I would agree with you that perhaps it is a stock game limitation but I haven't noticed such issues while playing TMO, plus the fact that I resolved one of the issues by simply not applying the April patch. But like I said I did like a lot of other things about it. I wish somebody would take up the reigns and finish it. If I had the skills I would definitely offer my help. Maybe when more people get updated hardware to properly play SH4 we will see more modders coming over to it. I think SH4 has a lot of things going for it for those that want some upgraded graphics and SH3 style gameplay but it seems all the modders are split between SH3 and 5 right now with a few lone exceptions spending time with 4(I wish whatever happened to put the kabosh on gwx4 never happened I'm sure that would have been excellent if it came to fruition). And Ducimus from what I've gathered from 2.5 is done with spending time with TMO(and I thank him for his excellent work that without I wouldn't even play sh4 anymore) so its starting to look like sh4 is at the end of the road as far as megamods go.

TorpX

01-06-12, 12:25 AM

Stoli151

01-06-12, 02:26 AM

Stoli151,

If you liked RFB otherwise, I would try a fresh copy of it (or the Apr. patch). It sounds like you may have a bad download. I don't know enough about computers to comment about possible hardware issues. I don't recall this night surface attacks being too easy issue comming up on the RFB thread. You might post it there and see if anyone else has had the same problem.

I'm not sure what you mean by RFB being "not finished". As far as I know it was finished; it is just not being actively updated.

Take a look at post #766 and #787 specifically in the RFB2.0 thread amongst a few others and you will see what I mean. If you play later in the war this problem won't occur because the escorts are able to zero in on you with radar but if you play very early in the war(1942) when all the enemy has is its visual senses when you are on the surface, that's when it happens. I thought about it maybe being a bad download also and tried getting it elsewhere same issues still occurred though. By me saying "someone should take up the reigns and finish it" I may have insulted someone but that was not my intention maybe I should have said still needs some "smoothing" in my opinion. I see things in it like DD's bobbing around like corks when they chase you also. I meant no disrespect I know guys do this work for free and I appreciate it. I just thought it was a shame these few minor things couldn't get looked at to make it a better mod.

bandit484

01-21-12, 06:58 PM

Yes, you can always go at least a little deeper than the test depth. Don't all the mods allow this? How much deeper is the question. I personally am quite reluctant to take an S-boat below 220 to 240 ft. Maybe it is ok to do so, but I don't want to end a career, just to see 'what would happen'. :dead:

I tested how far down you could go in my s-boat and the deadly area seems to be around 320ft. I hope this information helps with regards to developing some tactics for the s boats.:yeah::up::up::up:

gAiNiAc

01-21-12, 11:30 PM

Well............

Maybe you need to change your mindset and your tactics will follow.

I really like TMO. It's a gas. With that being said.............

I assume that I will be detected. I expect to be detected once I attack. I usually can get by a screen. If I'm detected before I reach firing position; I just drive right on in and wreak havoc. Anywhere from a standard to flank bell. Many depth and course changes. You need to know your enemies detection capabilities............Don't sit around waiting for the cans and hope they don't knock you on the head. They will.

I try to be outside anyones detection arc by about 1000 yards..... minimal facing aspect. Deep.

From range you need to analyze the formation and the escort patterns.

From there I usually draw a line indicating the formations overall course.... (I'm thinking LARGE formations right now...just scale down as neeeded..)

Then I look at the disposition of escorts and their sweep pattern.

They all usually cover a certain amount of frontage. I look for the "thin" points where they overlap and that's where I penetrate the screen.

The buggers might get right on you....but they don't necessarily got you. You need to be able to recognize when they're just dropping versus making a dead on run over your head and unloading. Don't let them spoof you into evasive maneuvers unecessarily.

Anyhow.........the mindset change you need to make is thus; you state (paraphrased) "I was deep, silent and slow....but they heard me!!!!"

As if you shouldn't have been.

The point is...assume that you will be detected and fight as such. Be the aggressor. Screw conserving your fish. I shot 4 at a minesweeper last patrol. 3 missed, when the 4th got him.....it was a hoot, blew him out of the water......broke him in half, blew the forward section into the air and it spun upside down and then crashed into the water.

Less then a 1000 tons but the visual was certainly worth it.

Regarding evasion............

You need to pick your axis of escape and maneuver around that. It's usually the opposite direction of the formation. Change depth a lot. you don't need to necessarily maneuver drastically. All it takes is a chess like mindset. Think in terms of boat lengths.

I wish I could be more concise about my play style; a great part of it is using the hydrophones and imagining what they're doing on the surface and maneuvering ahead of the game.

A big part of it is knowing when the heat is really on and driving to periscope and fighting the boat. Down the throat shots. A whole nest of fish. Don't even think about torpedo conservation. Think boat conservation.

Oh yeah....go find Bungo Pete. He'll teach you a lot about evasion.

;)

Have fun....

Bubblehead1980

01-22-12, 04:18 PM

Bilge_Rat

02-13-12, 03:36 PM

sorry for ressurecting an old thread. I'm a long time RFB+RSRDC player who recently switched to TMO2.5+RSRDC and wanted to offer my 2 cents..

regarding the AI, TMO 2.5 is not substantially different or more or less realistic than RFB, it is just a different interpretation of the same reality. I have done a number of RSRDC single missions to test the AI, sometimes it finds you easier in TMO than RFB, sometimes it does'nt.

It does appear easier to be found in TMO when at periscope depth, but appears easier to avoid detection if below the thermal layer + silent running, so the trick of diving below an escort screen does work.

Looking through the TMO and RFB "sim" files, you see that TMO is not harder than RFB; it is in certain areas, but easier in others. For example, it is easier to be found in TMO than RFB in clear calm waters or during the day, but it is easier to be found in RFB than TMO in choppy waters or at night.

It is also relatively easy to escape if you are found. Going deep below the thermal layer and "silent running" usually does the trick. I have had some close calls, but have always managed to escape so far. Again, looking at the "sim" file shows that the TMO AI will give up quicker if it does not reestablish contact than the RFB AI.

As a final tip, when trying to escape from an escort, it is probably not a good idea to use bursts of "flank speed". Unlike RL, DC blasts will not mask your noise in SH. Using "flank" just makes it easier for the escort to reestablish contact. Staying at "silent running" and just using the rudder to get out of the way is usually a better long term strategy.

Armistead

02-13-12, 04:16 PM

EricW

02-14-12, 09:30 AM

If TMO escorts drop charges on me, I'm going flank so I can outrun them, I find going slow even at depth is a good way for a group of cans to land right on you. If you're being pinged they can't listen anyway so they don't hear you.

This.....when they drop right on top of you, I go to flank with 15 degrees rudder to get out of the DC pattern. THEN go back to silent running hoping that they lose me when they come around again. It usually works and after a few runs they turn the wrong way and I'm gone. The operative word here is "usually" :D

Bilge_Rat

02-14-12, 01:37 PM

If TMO escorts drop charges on me, I'm going flank so I can outrun them, I find going slow even at depth is a good way for a group of cans to land right on you. If you're being pinged they can't listen anyway so they don't hear you.

Every one has a favorite technique, but there is always a trade off.

Yes, an escort pinging is not listening, but when you are facing 2-3 escorts, there is a good chance at least one is listening.

Running at "Flank" even for 30 seconds will not move the sub very far. At 2 knots "silent running", a sub will move about 100 feet in 30 seconds. At 9 knots "flank", the sub will move about 450 feet in the same time, probably more like 350-400 feet if the boat is accelerating and decelerating from 2 to 9 to 2 knots in 30 seconds. The 300 feet difference is about one boat length. It may get you out of the damage zone of the DCs, it may not.

On the other hand, running at "flank" makes your boat very noisy and easier to pick up by any escort nearby. As soon as one regains contact, their clock gets reset and they will all continue searching for you for a set period of time.