Year 1941, Jan.

[PappyCain]

If a British flagged vessel is hugging the coast of neutral Spain and I sink her - she is categorized "neutral" ship. Is that because she is in neutral country's waters? I have caught 9 British flagged vessels coming out of the Straits of Gibraltor or heading into it - and tagged 2 war ships. I know those were necessary for defense. But the others? Fair game?

Hmmmm. Thoughts?

:salute:

[Sailor Steve]

A neutral ship belongs to a neutral country. Sinking it will cost you renown. Always check the flag first.

[PappyCain]

Note: I did say they were flying British flags! 1941 too. Coding glitch or other (armed guard on merchant vessels too, and several zig zagged when seeing me - truly neutral vessels from neutral nations do not.)

:salute:


http://romanchristendom.blogspot.com/2008/07/red-ensign-saluting-war-time-bravery-of.html (http://romanchristendom.blogspot.com/2008/07/red-ensign-saluting-war-time-bravery-of.html)

Any thoughts?

[Sailor Steve]

Sorry, my mistake. Got it now. How were they "categorized" neutral? Green on the map? They shouldn't have been. How do they show up in your log?

[PappyCain]

Red on map - but neutral on log! about 12 vessels in all on 2 patrols. I started another patrol with a different boat and went to the same area and again red on map, neutral on log. Using SH3 Commander of course.

:salute:

Historically I wondered if being on the sublittoral coast line of a neutral nation (Spain) she had some legal international "protection" I was unaware of?

[Sailor Steve]

How very odd. I'm at a loss. :-?

[PappyCain]

Historically I wondered if being on the sublittoral coast line of a neutral nation (Spain) she had some legal international "protection" I was unaware of?

[Sailor Steve]

I don't think the game is that sophisticated.

[Gargamel]

I know ships interred in neutral ports were supposed to be off limits, but underway along the coasts, I would assume, would be fair game.

[PappyCain]

I guess I will research this angle a bit historically and if anyone knows please jump in. :salute:

Coding a band around a neutral country would be easy enough, or you can try the same coordinates I frequent to see what your claims are recorded as a neutral ship after you sank her flying a Brit flag.

I often have gone into Cadiz for top up on food, toilet paper, fuel and torps and being neutral know it is a safe zone (coded) and would expect a Brit or other combative had the same courtesy.

I would also wonder - yes wonder, if the coast line had a similar safe limit under international law but only a coder could say for sure if applied to the sim! and historically there should be something written online or in a book.

There is a reason why the sim is calling my Brit merchant claims as 'neutral ships' - clearly I catch them near the neutral Spanish and Portuguese coastline ..

:salute:

BTW - there is a tremendous amount of politics in the Spanish regime and while they winked at the Germans for port access, they vehemtly denied any ground forces to penetrate... hence my historical questioning on international verses coastal waters ...

[Kapt Z]

I'm baffled as well. I have sunk many hostile ships in 'neutral' waters, ie; off Ireland, Spain, some of Africa, Norway(pre-invasion) and never had the result you describe.

I HAVE sunk more than my share of 'neutral' shipping when I mis-ID'd their flag as British or Commonwealth(usually at night).

Would have to agree that it seems hard to believe the game would be 'smart' enough to factor in 'neutral' waters.

[Gargamel]

:


I often have gone into Cadiz for top up on food, toilet paper, fuel and torps and being neutral know it is a safe zone (coded) and would expect a Brit or other combative had the same courtesy.



I don't believe this was the case. The interred German ships in Spanish ports were supposedly disarmed and rendered 'useless' for lack of a better word. But due to many factors, including Germanies aid in the recent revolution, and Spain's desire to not be invaded, they allowed, with a blind eye, those ships to perform certain intelligence and logistical operations. Some were used as radio relays and intel gathering stations, others were covert resupply depots, as we know. I don't believe, for the same reasons, the allies were afforded the same 'courtesies'.

All ships of any flag could dock in these ports as normal, as long as their missions were of a non-military intent. Military ships were not allowed to function in neutral ports, since that would make the neutral country no longer neutral.

[PappyCain]

Well historically Portugal favored the Allies a bit more, as the Spanish favored the Axis a tat more (being fascist also). Technically the neutral port was there to only provide the sales of supples and food, not repair.

Of course all neutral ports were awash with espionage (great stories there).

Perhaps then, it is a glitch in the sim scripting, nothing more then that. I have 12 British flagged ships sunk close to the coastline and all labled "neutral".

And yes, you can go into a neutral port where there is a German supply tender, and get fueled up, eels and other and go back out on patrol. I manuever next to her, save and exit and when I start again, I am ready to leave port with my fresh ham sandwich on rye. I am currently operating off the tip of Portugal and Spain near Gibraltar catching traffic going in and coming out of the Med. past British-controlled Straights of Gibraltar.


:salute:

[irish1958]

I believe that you are not allowed to attack a ship in territorial waters of another country but must wait until the are in international waters.
You were a naughty boy

[PappyCain]

Irish1958,

I agree with you. I did surmise that coastal water is off limits along a neutral country.


:salute:

I am ending Stryker's command and sending him to a desk.

[PappyCain]

some research notes:

"Territory still plays a big part in the law of the sea. States' territorial claims have expanded considerably since the 18th century. Two hundred miles offshore (when I say mile, I mean the nautical mile, which is 6076 feet, or 1.150779 statute miles) is the limit of a State's potential exclusive economic zone. I say potential because States must claim the territory they want within this limit, and not all of them do so. In this zone the State has some exclusive rights to exploration and resources. However, other States' ships have a right of innocent passage through the EEZ, just as Grotius argued.

The next territorial boundary marks the State's potential contiguous zone, which extends 24 miles offshore. Within this zone, a coastal state can stop and inspect vessels and act to punish (or prevent) violations of its laws within its territory or territorial waters. The contiguous zone solves a vexing problem. As Malcolm Evans describes it:
Traditionally, where the territorial sea ends, the high seas began and the laws of the coastal State no longer apply.

:salute:

[Gargamel]

Interesting, but...

I assume these are peace time laws. Also, the mention of search and seizure are referring to the state that owns those waters, not to third party states. And while ships may be given passage of the eez, there is no mention of whether this is protection from outside assault.

[PappyCain]

Ok - then tell me why the 9 plus British flagged ships I sunk near the neutral Spain and Portugal coastline at the mouth of Gibraltar funnel were game recorded neutral ships - that my friend is the basis of this thread and reason for the first post on this thread - they were scripted to hug the territorial shoreline for a reason and when sunk, they were recorded neutral ships.
:salute:

[TorpX]

I thought the limit of territorial waters was only 3 miles. Were these ships that close to the coast? If so, perhaps they were considered 'neutral' ships and off limits to attack (for the moment at least). It does seem rather odd, however.

[PappyCain]

Ok - for history buffs this article conveys at least to me, some historical imperatives the sharp 'sim designers' may have utilized in historical context. Note the extensive bibliography supporting assumptions. I loved this stuff when I was a political science undergrad.


http://artsci.drake.edu/dussj/stantonsean.pdf (http://artsci.drake.edu/dussj/stantonsean.pdf)


:salute:

My personal conclusion is this: YES they are enemy ships BUT should not be attacked in coastal waters of a neutral nation (i.e.Spain) based on international law of the date/period. Perhaps Bdu had 'orders' I am not aware of. I found a sweet spot very near the coast to pick them off on lanes they traveled not aware of the treaties ....

[TorpX]

That is a very interesting article. The part about Spain sending troops to help Germany, especially. I'm surprised Britain didn't just clampdown and prevent all trade between Spain and Germany.

[Gargamel]

I think it would have been very difficult for the allies to restrict trade between Spain and Germany, given the logistical problems presented by geography, ie, without landing troops in Spain, which would force them to join the axis.

Pap, I'm also very interested in this topic, so I'm not arguing with you per se, just playing devils advocate. But you mention astute sim programmers, and while sh3 is a very in depth sim, there are a lot of glaring holes that lead me to believe this depth of research may be beyond the scope of the game. Given the fact that Greek flagged ships within a British convoy still get flagged as neutral when you sink them, I don't think they included sea boundaries within the game. Everything I have seen leads me to believe that flag is the sole determination of neutrality.

That said, this is a very intriguing problem. Maybe somebody has posted kills similar to yours previously, and can help in this discussion. As I am unable to do so at the moment, I would encourage you to set up a single mission with ships both inside and outside the assumed boundaries and see what the game engine sets them as. Or even raiding a neutral port with allied flagged vessels in it, as I would assume the engine would treat this similarly.

Again I'm not arguing your facts, as those are truthful to the real world, but as to how the game engine actually works.

[PappyCain]

Ya. Aye. My immersion brain always assumes the holes in the sim are items for me to work around using immersion, my curious nature forces me to dig for information from credentialed sources, my skeptical nature makes me sift and sort, my dumb arsed pig headedness makes me want to shoot straight and make a clean kill. I enjoy seeing people engage, think, research and reach conclusions I might absorb so I will head to patrol off Ireland than on to Halifax, Maine, NYC in a different boat with a new commander and maybe revisit that area in '42.

:salute: