Gun and Grenade attack in Belgium

[Oberon]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16161746

:o

Belgium, of all places, I mean...Norway was unlikely, yes, but Belgium? Belgium?!

And just after they manage to get a government together too...

RIP to the one dead person and a hope that it stays at one.

[Krauter]

:o Death toll is 4 now..

Bloody hell what is the world coming to.

[Dread Knot]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16161746

:o

Belgium, of all places, I mean...Norway was unlikely, yes, but Belgium? Belgium?!

Lunatics exist in every nation. :cry:

[frau kaleun]

:nope:

So terrible. My heart goes out to the victims and their loved ones.

[Takeda Shingen]

My thoughts with the victims, their families and the Belgian people at this time.

[Skybird]

In Berlin somebody is haunting the Weihnachtsmärkte, too. He distributes small bottles of free Schnaps as gifts to unsuspecting visitors, telling people he wants to celebrate the birth of his daughter. But the Schnaps is poisened. Over a dozen people have collapsed over several days and needed to be brought to hospital, with stomach cramps, sometimes losing consciousness, vomitting, breaking down completely, being totally disoriented.

Some creepy, sick people out there.

[Schroeder]

^this.:nope:

[Betonov]

In Berlin somebody is haunting the Weihnachtsmärkte, too.

Thanks for the warning :-?

Terrible thing in Belgium :nope:

[Jimbuna]

A terrible situation/tragedy :nope:

[Karle94]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16161746

:o

Belgium, of all places, I mean...Norway was unlikely, yes, but Belgium? Belgium?!

And just after they manage to get a government together too...

RIP to the one dead person and a hope that it stays at one.

My condolences, to both the families, the victims and all off Belgium. I hate it when this has to happen to civilians, especially when there`s no war going on.

In Berlin somebody is haunting the Weihnachtsmärkte, too. He distributes small bottles of free Schnaps as gifts to unsuspecting visitors, telling people he wants to celebrate the birth of his daughter. But the Schnaps is poisened. Over a dozen people have collapsed over several days and needed to be brought to hospital, with stomach cramps, sometimes losing consciousness, vomitting, breaking down completely, being totally disoriented.

Some creepy, sick people out there.

Glad I did`t meet that guy when I was in Berlin.

[HunterICX]

It gets better :nope:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16172662

Police in Belgium have discovered a woman's body in a shed belonging to a gunman who went on the rampage in Liege, killing four people and himself.

HunterICX

[Penguin]

It looks so far that this scumbag was a single maniac, sadly there is no real protection against stuff like this. RIP to the victims, especially the 17 month old girl.

And wtf has some guy in Berlin, who puts roofies in drinks, to do with a gun and grenade attack? :nope:

[Skybird]

[Not meant as a reply to Penguin]

Isn't is strange that when Breivik was caught, the media immediately started to focus on his then still assumed racist background, his christian-fundamentalist background, his xenophobia and "Islamophobia", his supremacist white-race-belief - but in case of Amrani in Belgium, media are very very silent about the "North-African migration background" of this pervert mass killer, instead speak of a "man" who was known to the police, who dealt with drugs and weapons - but no word on his Muhammeddan identity and his Northafrican ethnicity?


Penguin,
I just mentioned it because to me the one guy to me is as sick and creepy than the other.

Public statements over how sorry somebody is over a crime happening, are not my thing. I make such a statement to somebody when I know he suffered personally a loss due to that event. To my knowledge, nobody in this forum has suffered anything from that attack in Belgium. So why should I express personal condolences to everybody here? Or do you think the victims and their families are reading this forum?

If so, then I will tell them about my condolences - in private.

And according to this report (http://derstandard.at/1323222913766/Amoklauf-in-Belgien-Taeter-sollte-verhoert-werden)in the Austrian Der Standard, his lawyer said that due to his years-long record of confliciting with the police (20 sentences counting against him), he felt himself being bothered (belästigt) by the police.

Well, maybe we should pay him compensation for the police having harassed hiom - because he collected 20 sentences for crimes regarding drugs, firearms, and sexual crimes.

The Belgian officials, indicates Der Standard, seem to be not worried about background and crime record of the murderer. They instead focus on claims that "there are too many weapons circulating", and that weapon laws should be tightened. And why not avoiding towards this claim? The crowds always love to applaud to this demand.

And a link to a German essay (http://www.achgut.com/dadgdx/index.php/dadgd/print/0024459).

Die deutschen Medien verbreiten vorerst den Eindruck, als wären sie heilfroh, wenn man den Vorgang als Einzeltat eines Waffennarren abtun könnte. Warum? Nun, der Täter heißt Nordine Amrani, im Mediendeutsch: Nordine A. Der Name dürfte wohl schon genügt haben, um gewisse Schutz- und Trutzreflexe bei manchen Journalisten auszulösen. Könnte es sein, dass es sich um einen "Südländer"handelt oder womöglich gar um einen ***8211; nein, sprechen wir es lieber nicht aus, noch nicht. Nur wenn der Täter kurze blonde Haare hat, darf man frühzeitig und ausgiebig darüber sinnieren, woher er stammt, was ihn zu der Tat getrieben hat, wie er heißt, ob er katholisch ist, wie viele seinesgleichen noch frei herumlaufen und wer wohl sein Spiritus Rector gewesen sein könnte.

Nordine Amrani wollte vielleicht ein Verbrechen von derselben Dimension wie Anders Breivik verüben. Er war bewaffnet bis an die Zähne und die Tat geschah nicht im Affekt, sondern sie war geplant. Die belgische Presse hat kein Problem damit, Breiviks und Amranis Taten zu vergleichen, aber auch sie hat sich beeilt, von einem Einzeltäter zu sprechen und keinerlei Spekulationen über das Motiv aufkommen zu lassen. Doch in den belgischen Foren und Blogs werden die Themen abgehandelt, die den Bürger bei einem solchen Ereignis bewegen: Warum so früh auf Bewährung frei, warum keine Festnahme nach dem versäumten Vernehmungstermin, warum schon wieder im Besitz von Waffen, wer lieferte diese, wie lange hat er das schon geplant, warum der Weihnachtsmarkt, woher so viel Hass, gibt es Hintermänner, was war das Motiv? Und ja, sie schreiben, dass der Täter wohl ein Araber oder Nordafrikaner und ein Moslem war. Eine Frage sticht besonders heraus: Hat er die Kriegswaffen, die man 2008 bei ihm fand, wirklich nur gesammelt, weil er ein Waffennarr war?

[Platapus]

Any idea why this guy did this? Guns and grenades seems to indicate that this was pretty important to him.

<ctl>-v my usual statement about the depths that humans can sink

What a terrible and what appears to be a totally senseless act of random violence. :nope:

[Skybird]

One thing seems to become more and more obvious: he planned it, it is no mental "circuit shortcut", he prepared it, he wanted to kill as many people as possible. And like it was no coindicidence that Breiivik targetted the government and then the socialist youth organsiation, it maybe also is no coincidence that Amrani targetted a symbolic and iconic hotspot of Christian festivities.

The comparison to Breivik recommends itself. Maybe it even was a direct retaliation.

[MH]

I would go as far as claiming that is a muslim background style of taking revenge on society.
Some blond misfit probably would do it differently...shooting lawyers or something.:haha:

According to the limited info the guy looks like typical crackhead that happens to have muslim background which may have influenced his style of taking revenge.

[Penguin]

@ Sky:

I get your point. To me your statement looked like a relativization of the crime, like adding "oh and in Africa every day soandsomuch children starve." (*)
This board is no condolence book, nor intended to be so, but a forum to express one's opinions and thoughts. If this includes empathy, so be it.
If members of this board were affected personally is secondary to the fact that a crime like this happens random, could happen to anybody out in the public, visiting a city and standing at a bus stop. So yes, this is my connection to express my lame RIP. I don't need a personal connection to do this. I noticed the same thing in the thread about the NSU (Nazi terror cell), but I wasn't on to reply to you there, and I didn't want to revive a dead thread later when I read it. Fyi: I was 300 meters away when the cell's nailbomb exploded in Cologne, next to a Döner shop and a restaurant which I used to frequent on a regular base, personal enough? It does not change my feelings towards these boneheads or my empathy with the victims if I were hit directly or were not affected at all. However, as said before: I get your point.

To make another Breivik-connection: this is one of the boards where one can talk about the attack in Liege. When the attack in Norway happened, the forums on all mayor German news sites were open for comments, yesterday: the comments on every forum were deactivated. :nope: Strange or "vorauseilender Gehorsam"? To me it seems like a laughable attempt to "fight racism" by not allowing questions about the criminal's background. That's why I prefer the open discussions this board allows us to have.

If the guy was a non-political/non-religious lunatic madman, or a jihadist is an interesting question certainly many people have. Not allowing to talk about it only fuels resentments and speculations.


(*) my feelings towards this phrase are expressed by this song, from one of the important bands of my youth: But Alive - Betroffen aufessen (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voRjmUVoveU), lyrics are here (http://www.but-alive.de/musik_texte_nichtzynischwerden.htm#15) - hope you get where I'm coming from and my pov about crocodile tears (to the damned foreigners;): song's in German only)

[tater]

As soon as I saw no real information about his motives, I assumed he was muslim. Skybird is entirely correct about double standards.

Perhaps because no one worries about hurting the feelings of neo-nazis, but they do worry about hurting the feelings of another group that voluntarily holds a set of ideas.

[Jimbuna]

What would have been the maximum sentence?

[Tribesman]

Isn't is strange that when Breivik was caught, the media immediately started to focus on his then still assumed racist background, his christian-fundamentalist background, his xenophobia and "Islamophobia", his supremacist white-race-belief

Someone clearly has their head so far from reality they can no longer see.
With Breivic the media went on to his racist loony rants only after they had jumped into an initial "its the muslims" angle and it had emerged that it wasn't.

[tater]

With terror attacks in the west---by lone nuts, or organized groups---and zero information, you are more likely than not correct to guess "muslim." Even counting the OK city bombing's large number of victims, the total mass-murder count in the last 10-20 years to lone nuts and non-muslim groups in the west is noise compared to islamic attacks.

You can crank up the non-muslim numbers by heading to the east, and the LTTE will raise the death count a lot, but then you need to include muslim attacks out of the west, too, which will dwarf even the large toll in Sri Lanka.

Regardless, it's better to "wait and see" before reporting, I'm just saying that if forced to guess, a bookmaker would pick muslim.

[Tribesman]

As soon as I saw no real information about his motives, I assumed he was muslim. Skybird is entirely correct about double standards.

First one I read once he had been identified had him down as a north african immigrant, that was later changed to son of immigrants and to Belgian born of Morroccan descent.
As for reported information on motives it started out as an attempted escape then was reported as wanted criminal then it was ex-con who was supposed to report over parole violations.
So your "no real information" is bollox as there wasplenty of information but most of it was not correct(as is to be expected on breaking news).
If you really see no information then perhaps you should use some half decent news sources.

[tater]

I heard a few-second long blurb on National Public Radio. When they said grenades, and didn't mention anything about him, I assumed he was a muslim.

[mapuc]

One thing seems to become more and more obvious: he planned it, it is no mental "circuit shortcut", he prepared it, he wanted to kill as many people as possible. And like it was no coindicidence that Breiivik targetted the government and then the socialist youth organsiation, it maybe also is no coincidence that Amrani targetted a symbolic and iconic hotspot of Christian festivities.

The comparison to Breivik recommends itself. Maybe it even was a direct retaliation.

I've been thinking exactly the same. I think that this dead woman that they found, had perhaps revealed his true agenda.

It's like "ohh it's so sorry for this poor guy, it's our foul, that he had to do such a terrible thing" If you red and listen to the danish and swedish news and newspaper

Markus

[tater]

I'm talking initial reporting. As it happens sort of stuff.

[Tribesman]

heard a few-second long blurb on National Public Radio. When they said grenades, and didn't mention anything about him, I assumed he was a muslim.
So if you hear about a shoting and grenade attack in Dublin or Limerick you assume its the muslims not the local criminals then?????
BTW your maths on attacks in the west seem to miss out the past couple of decades of mass slaughter and bombings by terrorists in that continent to your south.

[Skybird]

Fyi: I was 300 meters away when the cell's nailbomb exploded in Cologne, next to a Döner shop and a restaurant which I used to frequent on a regular base, personal enough?
I know how you feel with such memories.

1986, West Berlin, La Belle.

Those are mine. 3 months after my Abitur, I just had become 19 some weeks earlier. Was coming back from a night party, on bike, with a friend. We just had crossed the street and turned into a sidestreet (down which my family lived) and just had passed the club, when it went up, maybe 50, 60 m behind us. Either blast or shock took us from our bikes. I cannot say until today what it was, since I have terribly precise visual memories of what then unfolded on the scene, but no physical ones and no accustic ones. It all is a movie without sound or music playing. No sirens, no voices, no nothing. Tells me - as a former psychologist - something about how deep it is engraved in my psyche. Minor scratches only, some "blaue Flecke" - that was all, for myself. Some of the people crawling out of the ruin were not that lucky.

Never forgotten, never forgiven.

[tater]

So if you hear about a shoting and grenade attack in Dublin or Limerick you assume its the muslims not the local criminals then?????
BTW your maths on attacks in the west seem to miss out the past couple of decades of mass slaughter and bombings by terrorists in that continent to your south.

With grenades these days? My assumption would be muslims until proved otherwise. Again, I still take a wait and see attitude, but if it's NOT muslims, I'm surprised.

I don't think of even Mexico as being "the West," much less anyplace south of that. I suppose regionally, if I hear about such an attack I assume (rightfully) that it is Mexican nationals. I'm so used to their criminality I forget them.

I mean "first world" countries.

[Tribesman]

With grenades these days? My assumption would be muslims until proved otherwise. Again, I still take a wait and see attitude, but if it's NOT muslims, I'm surprised.


Well that just shows how wrong assumptions can be and how your guessing without information isn't a clever thing to do.
like wise with your Tigers thing, you miss out not only the continent right next to you but then skip straight across another one to find a single example as "balance" to try and make your views look like they fit.
You are skipping from pillar to post to try and get snippetsof information which could at a stretch roughly fit your view instead of looking at the information then fitting your views around that.

I mean "first world" countries
1st 2nd 3rd...makes no difference if the reality doesn't fit the view you want and it is clear that none actually do.
I mean seriously how can you be still coming out with this, it was widely rubbished very thoroughly when Coulter spouted it ages ago.

[Foxtrot]

According to Amrani's lawyer, he could not speak Arabic and was not Muslim.

Guess the question has been answered (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/belgium/8956132/Liege-attacks-Belgian-gunman-Nordine-Amrani-had-grudge-against-society.html)

[Jimbuna]

Guess the question has been answered (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/belgium/8956132/Liege-attacks-Belgian-gunman-Nordine-Amrani-had-grudge-against-society.html)

Thanks for posting that.

[Jimbuna]

UPDATE:

Death toll is now five

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16197303

[Herr-Berbunch]

With terror attacks in the west---by lone nuts, or organized groups---and zero information, you are more likely than not correct to guess "muslim." Even counting the OK city bombing's large number of victims, the total mass-murder count in the last 10-20 years to lone nuts and non-muslim groups in the west is noise compared to islamic attacks.


Expand that 10-20 years to 30-40 years and things are vastly different,

Some 14 groups in Eire/Republic of Ireland/Northern Ireland/Ulster/Whateveryouwanttocallit.

Germany's had it's BM-gang, later the Red Army Faction, and I'm sure some others.

France and Spain have their varying Basque Separatists, amongst others.

Just about every european country appears to have had it's violent 'separatists' in one form or another, some more than others.

I don't know all the facts and figures, but the IRA alone were responsible for some 1800 murders. So in the US you may guess 'Muslim', but for the rest of us they are only part of the story.




*standing by for flack/abuse*

[Skybird]

The number of thwarted Islamic terror strikes in Europe and the assumed death tolls they would have caused, the detah toll from those terror strikes that actually took place, as well as the number of actual Islamic crimes like honour killings, family gang rapes, physical violence, kidnapping and the like, outclasses that committed by right wing groups, the Red Army Faction, or Nazi groups.

[Oberon]

Total dead from the Troubles alone equals nearly two thousand, and that's just civilians. I think if you were to compare, in the UK alone, the deaths from Islamic causes and the deaths from Irish causes, Islamic deaths would be rather outnumbered.

I won't deny though, it's a different type of terrorist we face now, the old IRA would (7/10 times) ring through a warning, or be predictable in where they planted their bombs, I imagine the amount of bombs that were prevented by action by the Bomb Squad during the Troubles to be in the hundreds, if not thousands. Most were small nail bombs, but the odd car bomb wasn't unheard of. However, there was not one incidence (that I'm aware of) of an Irish suicide bomber. In fact, the PIRA had an even worse tactic than a suicide bomber, the 'Proxy bomber' where they'd chain a Catholic victim to a car full of explosives, hold his family at gunpoint and force the guy to drive up to a British checkpoint where they would detonate his car by remote control. Thankfully, the revulsion it caused amongst the PIRAs supporters meant that the 'Proxy bomber' was an infrequent event.
Certainly there are some in the UK who may think that all this 'be on the alert for terrorists' thing is new, but I am not one of them, I've been used to seeing signs warning of 'unattended luggage' since I first started traveling on public transport, I remember the Docklands bombing, and Omagh, and whilst a suicide bomber is much harder to stop than a conventional car bomb or bin bomb, we have the anti-terrorist skill set in place and have had it in place for decades, all we have done is change the enemy from the IRA to Al'Qaeda.

In terms of honour killings, well...yes, that is quite new...well, new in this century in the UK anyway, and it is ugly, and we are having to adapt to deal with it.

[Tribesman]

Thanks for posting that.
But will it have any impact?
Obviously not as Sky instantly goes off into the realms of insane fiction again because ...well because its gottabethemuslims:doh:.
Still you learn something new every day, apparently physical violence is islamic terrorism in europe and they do more of it than the locals.
I am sure in your job you must have been swamped by thousands of examples violent of islamic geordies every weekend having their good old rage vent after friday solomn prayers at the watering holes which would then turn into saturdays homage to the religious frenzy of Bacchus .