How the ATF and DOJ violated federal law.

[1480]

This little piece is from the very man who drafted some of this legislation that was passed into law:

I refer to the apparent violation of at least one (probably two) major U.S. laws by the Holder Justice Department. A few years ago, the International Emergency Economic Powers Act (50 U.S.C. 1701, the follow-on to the Trading with the Enemy Act) was expanded in order to criminalize any transactions between U.S. entities ***8212; to include departments and agencies of the U.S. government ***8212; and all foreign drug cartels.A violation of any of the IEEPA sanctioning programs or the Kingpin Act carries stiff penalties, both criminal and civil, and potentially totaling decades in prison and tens of millions of dollars in fines. It is not necessary that an individual or governmental entity be shown to have ***8220;knowingly***8221; violated any of these programs: it is illegal for any U.S. entity or individual to aid, abet, or materially assist ***8212; or in the case of Operation Fast and Furious, to facilitate others to aid, abet, or materially assist ***8212; designated drug traffickers. There are no exceptions within IEEPA programs for unlicensed U.S. law enforcement or intelligence agency operations.

http://pjmedia.com/blog/gunwalker-justice-dept-violated-us-laws/?singlepage=true

[Rockstar]

Aiding the enemy? Was that really their intent? I doubt it, somone just really screwed up and heads should roll.

These kinds of operations are done all the time, it's nothing new. Neither is watching one snowball into a big Charlie Foxtrot. But trading with the enemy? That is a bit far fetched

[Tribesman]

That is a bit far fetched
It is Pajamas so it is to be expected.

[1480]

Yes and no. The gentleman who drafted the bill is the person who is doing the op-ed. Just because it is on a conservative website does not mean it is any less credible.

[Osmium Steele]

Aiding the enemy? Was that really their intent? I doubt it, somone just really screwed up and heads should roll.


Nothing in Op suggested it violated the Trading with the Enemy act.

It clearly states the actions violated the International Emergency Economic Powers Act which, in 1995 was ammended to make dealing with persons involved in international narcotics traffic a criminal offence.

Nothing far fetched whatsoever.

[1480]

Aiding the enemy? Was that really their intent? I doubt it, somone just really screwed up and heads should roll.

These kinds of operations are done all the time, it's nothing new. Neither is watching one snowball into a big Charlie Foxtrot. But trading with the enemy? That is a bit far fetched

For IEEPA the case is not as strong, but Kingpin was made to combat the cartels. The POTUS is the person who designates said targets, which are threats to either national security, foreign policy or to the economy.

[Tribesman]

The gentleman who drafted the bill is the person who is doing the op-ed.
The gentleman who drafted some parts of the bill is stating what he thinks was intended and how he thinks some actions go against the bill as he thinks it was intended to work.

[Rockstar]

Based on the July 5, 2010, memo to Eric Holder, it would appear that Fast and Furious facilitated the delivery of weapons to; at a minimum; the Sinaloa cartel in Mexico.
Facilitate for what purpose do some really think it was to aid and abet a drug cartel under the cover of a legitimate operation? I wave the B.S. flag on that. It was investigation into this drug cartel's network . It was certainly botched up, I have no doubt about that but nobody in ATF or DEA or DOJ was trying to supply this cartel with weapons for the purpose of aiding them or personal gain.

Narcotics are offloaded at U.S. ports and sometimes allowed to be distributed throughout the U.S. The purpose is not to aid drug kingpins, cartels and street gangs. It is an attempt to see how many are involved in crimminal activing of distributing it and track them down.

Operation Kingpin dealt with weapons. Weapons which got out on the street and turned right around and bit them in the arse. Yes, heads should roll I just don't think this has anything to do with aiding an abetting the enemy/cartels.

[Bilge_Rat]

The entire partisan Republican outrage over "Fast and Furious" is already way over the top. Yes, ATF and DOJ screwed up, but to argue they are criminals who willingly broke the law is ridiculous.

Drug enforcement agents routinely engage in drug trades to nab Drug traffickers, either as "Buyers" offering to buy drugs or as "Sellers" offering to sell drugs, in the latter case, they actually bring drugs to the deal. Technically, both these actions could be considered Drug Trafficking under Federal Laws. Will Republicans now argue that all these types of stings should be stopped?

"Fast&Furious": good idea+bad implementation=heads will roll, but criminal prosecution? give me a break.

[Molon Labe]

The DOJ are accomplices to over 200 murders. Of course they should be prosecuted. Preferably extradited.

And don't compare this to a "sting." In a sting operation, there is a plan in place to catch someone breaking the law and to arrest them. There was absolutely no plan in place in Gunwalker to catch anyone but the straw purchasers themselves, and there was never any need to let the guns walk to make those arrests. The line that they wanted to get some kind of head honcho shouldn't be accepted until they can tell us how they planned to do that, especially since they deliberately kept the Mexican government in the dark.

Also, the US government has no authority to conduct a sting operation inside another sovereign country.



As for the specific laws being violated, I can't find the the actual text of TWTE or IEEPA that brings cartels under the umbrella, so I am sceptical that these laws actually apply in this case. But, even if they do apply, it makes zero sense to talk about intent/purpose with respect to those laws without knowing what the precise elements of the crime are. It could well turn out that the only intent required is intent to trade with the prohibited entity.

[Tribesman]

And don't compare this to a "sting." In a sting operation, there is a plan in place to catch someone breaking the law and to arrest them.
That definition of yours needs expansion as a sting operation can also be an information gathering operation where the plan may not be to arrest them.

[Bilge_Rat]

The DOJ are accomplices to over 200 murders. Of course they should be prosecuted. Preferably extradited.


so, by the same token, you would support the extradition of former President Bush to face accusations of torture?

[yubba]

Torture is a far cry from murder, and as far as holding any of these folks accountable will be a stretch, Little miss Nancy didn't drain the swamp, she deepened it, no good, inside trading, whack job, hussy.

[Tribesman]

so, by the same token, you would support the extradition of former President Bush to face accusations of torture?
Why bother with torture, you could pin plenty on Bush through narcotics and terrorists just like you could his dad or Clinton. But hey they can all have the option of playing the Reagan card and claiming to be an ignorant prick who simply don't know nothing that goes on.

[August]

Drug enforcement agents routinely engage in drug trades to nab Drug traffickers, either as "Buyers" offering to buy drugs or as "Sellers" offering to sell drugs, in the latter case, they actually bring drugs to the deal.

The key difference with that scenario and this one is they maintain custody of those drugs throughout the sting. They do not allow the traffickers to take and sell them on the street to the users. The Feds allowed these weapons to get into the hands of the cartels in a foreign country. That is not maintaining custody.

Now there might not have been any criminal intent in Fast and Furious but it sure seems like there was criminal negligence and at the top of the responsibility list is Eric Holder by definition as well as circumstance.

No way could an operation of this scope and seriousness be run by underlings without the boss overseeing it. If he didn't know about the operation like he claims then he is negligent. An American citizen was murdered because of that negligence. A couple hundred people at last estimate have died because of that negligence. How can that negligence not be criminal?

[Platapus]

Now there might not have been any criminal intent in Fast and Furious but it sure seems like there was criminal negligence and at the top of the responsibility list is Eric Holder by definition as well as circumstance.



I would agree with this. Perhaps the negligence is something that can be prosecuted.

[Rockstar]

That agent who told thee shop owner it was ok to let the guns go should be sent to prison as should his supervisor. What the pheck did these people think was going to happen to those firearms? Wait they didn't think did they :nope:

[Sailor Steve]

If you can't say it without an expletive, even a fake one, don't say it at all.

[1480]

http://oversight.house.gov/images/stories/Other_Documents/4-7.pdf

Keep in mind point 1 when you read point 8. This is actual government documents, though heavily redacted throughout.

http://oversight.house.gov/images/stories/Reports/ATF_Report.pdf

This is not from a conservative blog, this is actually the official report form the House oversight committee of what has occurred, not what was speculated of what might have occurred. If you think it's fine that the top law enforcement office in the United States has been proven to have lied on paper when answering inquiries from the committee that is investigating what had happened, than there will be nothing to sway you.

http://readthestimulus.org/hr1_final.pdf

Page 16, 3rd paragraph, 10 million of stimulus money strictly for Gun Runner.


[QUOTE] Last week, our administration launched a major new effort to break the backs of the cartels. My department is committing 100 new ATF personnel to the Southwest border in the next 100 days to supplement our ongoing Project Gunrunner, DEA is adding 16 new positions on the border, as well as mobile enforcement teams, and the FBI is creating a new intelligence group focusing on kidnapping and extortion. DHS is making similar commitments, as Secretary Napolitano will detail.[/QUOTE


Attorney General Eric Holder at the Mexico/United States Arms Trafficking Conference
CUERNAVACA, MEXICO ~ Thursday, April 2, 2009


http://www.justice.gov/ag/speeches/2009/ag-speech-090402.html


Eric Holder in 03 May 2011 under oath, stated to the committee during their
questioning about when he learned of "fast and furious":

“I’m not sure of the exact date, but I probably heard about Fast and Furious for the first time over the last few weeks”

When in fact CBS discovered documents that are contrary to what he claimed under oath.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0JaDEShZIvQ

Yes, he changed his story to "a couple of months", under oath again. 08 DEC 2011 will be very interesting indeed.

[yubba]

Very inter rest tingggg, I vonder if he gets promoted too Baron, so it would be Eric Von Holdder, thenn ??????:o papers pleazzzzz

[1480]

Sen. Charles Grassley, R-Iowa, is investigating Fast and Furious, as well as the alleged use of the case to advance gun regulations. "There's plenty of evidence showing that this administration planned to use the tragedies of Fast and Furious as rationale to further their goals of a long gun reporting requirement. But, we've learned from our investigation that reporting multiple long gun sales would do nothing to stop the flow of firearms to known straw purchasers because many Federal Firearms Dealers are already voluntarily reporting suspicious transactions. It's pretty clear that the problem isn't lack of burdensome reporting requirements."


http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-57338546-10391695/documents-atf-used-fast-and-furious-to-make-the-case-for-gun-regulations/

[1480]

"Nobody at the Justice Department has lied," Holder insisted.


When Sensenbrenner pressed Holder on the distinction between lying and misleading Congress, Holder said it was a matter of a person's "state of mind."


Holder said that when DOJ officials provided inaccurate information to Congress, they didn't know at the time that it was inaccurate.
http://campaign2012.washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/holder-nobody-doj-has-lied/244706

Rep. James Sensenbrenner asked Holder: "Tell me what's the difference between lying and misleading Congress, in this context?"


Holder's response, "Well, if you want to have this legal conversation, it all has to do with your state of mind and whether or not you had the requisite intent to come up with something that would be considered perjury or a lie," Holder said. "The information that was provided by the February 4th letter was gleaned by the people who drafted the letter after they interacted with people who they thought were in the best position to have the information."


Rep. Darrell Issa on Eric Holder:

"We have a paper trail of so many people knowing that the only way the attorney general didn't know is he made sure he didn't want to know." "But if you don't want to know something of this sort then you shouldn't have the job he has. And ultimately one of the questions is, if he didn't know, is he that inept that he is dangerous to have as the attorney general, and that is for the president to decide." New documents obtained by CBS News show Attorney General Eric Holder was sent briefings on the controversial Fast and Furious operation as far back as July 2010. That directly contradicts his statement to Congress.


The documents came from the head of the National Drug Intelligence Center and Assistant Attorney General Lanny Breuer.


Two Justice Department officials mulled it over in an email exchange Oct. 18, 2010."It's a tricky case given the number of guns that have walked but is a significant set of prosecutions" says Jason Weinstein, Deputy Assistant Attorney General of the Criminal Division. Deputy Chief of the National Gang Unit James Trusty replies"I'm not sure how much grief we get for "guns walking." It may be more like, "Finally they're going after people who sent guns down there."


The Justice Department told CBS News that the officials in those emails were talking about a different case started before Eric Holder became Attorney General. And tonight they tell CBS News, Holder misunderstood that question from the committee " he did know about Fast and Furious , just not the details."



http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20115038-10391695.html



Does anyone still believe that an operation of this magnitude which involved arming a criminal drug cartel, in another sovereign nation, did not have clearance from the top....

[Arlo]

Cool indian head profile sig thingie.

[1480]

Cool indian head profile sig thingie.

http://blackhawks.nhl.com/

Thanks.

[Takeda Shingen]

It is a cool sig, but you can't possibly be throwing the towel in on the 7-5 Bears.

[1480]

It is a cool sig, but you can't possibly be throwing the towel in on the 7-5 Bears.

Did you see the game against KC?

As to your Eagles, Urlacher has had Vick's number every time they played together.


What do you think the chances are of your Broad Street bullies this season?

[Takeda Shingen]

Did you see the game against KC?

As to your Eagles, Urlacher has had Vick's number every time they played together.


What do you think the chances are of your Broad Street bullies this season?

I wasn't trying to talk smack, Da Bears are legitimately good this year. My Eagles are a disgrace and Andy Reid must go.

Honestly, I am not sure about the BSBs. Not much of a hockey fan. But, knowing the reputation of Philly sports, I will bet that the Flyers won't go far at all.

[August]

FDoes anyone still believe that an operation of this magnitude which involved arming a criminal drug cartel, in another sovereign nation, did not have clearance from the top....

Exactly. It's like a military offensive planned and managed by sergeants with the commanding General claiming that he didn't know what they were up to. He's either lying or the worst general ever.

Criminal negligence, death and injury resulting, I believe is the term.

[magic452]

This guy should be held responsible because the company he lead has gone bankrupt and people lost 1.2 billion dollars.
He claims that he can't know everything that goes on in a large company.

http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt296/Magic452/Jon-Corzine-MF-Global-Holdings.jpg



But according to some this guy is completely innocent because he headed a "company" that cost the lives of 1 American and most likely 100 or so Mexicans.
He claims that he didn't know what was going on in such a large "company"

http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt296/Magic452/holder_eric_120811.jpg

One is a "businessman?" and the other a politician
One is a slim ball and the other is "our guy".

They were both testifying this week.
Somehow there seems to be a double standard here.

Magic

[Tribesman]

Exactly. It's like a military offensive planned and managed by sergeants with the commanding General claiming that he didn't know what they were up to. He's either lying or the worst general ever.

Surely if the sergeants had planned it the operation would have worked better

[1480]

Surely if the sergeants had planned it the operation would have worked better


You are correct.

[1480]

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
March 24, 2004

Governor Blagojevich names well-respected former U.S. Justice Department official as independent Special Investigator to the Illinois Gaming Board
Eric Holder to assist Gaming Board in expanded review of issues surrounding Rosemont as location of 10th casino license

CHICAGO – One week after calling for a full and open review of concerns surrounding the location of Illinois’ 10th casino license, Gov. Rod R. Blagojevich today announced his appointment of former Deputy U.S. Attorney General Eric H. Holder, Jr., as Special Investigator to the Illinois Gaming Board.


http://www.illinois.gov/pressreleases/ShowPressRelease.cfm?SubjectID=3&RecNum=2868


Holder, however, omitted that event from his 47-page response to a Senate Judiciary Committee questionnaire made public this week — an oversight he plans to correct after a Chicago Sun-Times inquiry, Obama’s transition team indicated late Tuesday.Holder signed the questionnaire on Sunday — five days after Blagojevich’s arrest for allegedly putting Obama’s U.S. Senate seat up for sale. The Judiciary Committee asked him to provide lists and “copies of transcripts or tape recordings of all speeches or talks delivered by you” and “all interviews you have given to newspapers, magazines or other publications.”

Yes an Op-ed but insightful nonetheless:

Assistant Attorney General Lanny Breuer—chief of DOJ’s Criminal Division—previously claimed he had not seen drafts of a letter sent to Congress containing false information about the program.

Now we know from new documents that he not only saw multiple drafts, he even forwarded one of them to his personal email account.

In other words, Breuer lied to Congress. He should be fired immediately. But Congress must not let Breuer be the fall guy.

Newly disclosed documents also reveal that the FBI, DEA, and other federal agencies were involved with illegal guns falling into the hands of Mexican drug cartels—and that at least one person in the White House knew.

It’s inconceivable that so much manpower was overseen by a lower-level DOJ political appointee.

http://washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/op-eds/2011/12/holders-choice-name-fast-and-furious-special-prosecutor-or-face-impeachment/1

[1480]

Issa told Holder that the Justice Department has turned over 5,000 emails to the committee about Operation Fast and Furious, but "not one of these emails is yours." The attorney general said that his department's response to the committee's document requests has been "fulsome" and that the Justice Department would not turn over additional emails sought by Issa. The California congressman said he wants emails from March of this year between a Holder aide and Justice Department criminal division head Lanny Breuer (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/Lanny+Breuer). Issa suggested Holder could be cited for contempt of Congress if the material is not provided.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/story/2011-12-08/fast-and-furious-holder-hearing/51746552/1

If Holder has nothing to hide, he should present the emails as proof to his claims. So, I will take a giant illogical leap and say for the record: both him and the POTUS not only knew of what was going on and if not giving explicit orders to carry out the operation, gave their tacit approval to it.

Look for Issa and Grassley to push hard on the subject of the DOJ outright refusal to turn over all of the subpenaed documents. There will be whispers of obstruction and I see when they do comply with the demand, Holder will plead the fifth amendment and lawyer up.