View Full Version : Russians vote in nationwide parliamentary poll
Russians are voting in parliamentary elections that are expected to see Prime Minister Vladimir's United Russia maintain its majority.There have been allegations of violations of election law, with Russia's only independent monitoring group, Golos, logging 5,300 complaints.Its head, Lilya Shibanova, was held at a Moscow airport after refusing to hand over her laptop.Mr Putin has accused foreign countries of meddling in election preparations.The Golos monitors, who are non-party political, are funded largely by the US and EU.Russian MPs have questioned why the foreign-funded organisation - whose name means "voice" or "vote" - is allowed to monitor Russian elections.
Long voting day-Voting for representation in the country's 450-seat chamber takes place across Russia's nine time zones with polls closing at 1700GMT on Sunday in Kaliningrad.As people in European Russia were going to bed, polls were opening in the far east.In Vladivostok, sailors from Russia's Pacific fleet were among those queuing to vote.Warrant Officer Nikolai Ponomaryov said he was voting for United Russia, because the party was supporting the armed forces.In the far north, above the Arctic circle, voters braved temperatures of -26C to cast their ballots. Polling stations have now opened in the capital, Moscow.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16020632
Note: 4 December 2011 Last updated at 05:19 GMT
Betonov
12-04-11, 03:07 AM
It's parlamentary election also for Slovenia and Croatia today
Schroeder
12-04-11, 03:11 AM
It's parlamentary election also for Slovenia and Croatia today
Sorry, you don't sell resources to us so it's unimportant.:O:
Betonov
12-04-11, 03:21 AM
Sorry, you don't sell resources to us so it's unimportant.:O:
We only turn those resourdes in to parts and components for your fancy cars and boats and Croatia welcomes hordes of German tourists to her shores :O:
Jimbuna
12-04-11, 03:39 AM
We only turn those resourdes in to parts and components for your fancy cars and boats and Croatia welcomes hordes of German tourists to her shores :O:
The UK doesn't have all that many fancy cars but we welcome tourists with money...at least until the Euro becomes absolutely worthless :DL
Betonov
12-04-11, 03:54 AM
OK, OK, back to Russia :O:
I'll post about our election in the comment thread, yeeeesh :shifty:
Jimbuna
12-04-11, 05:05 AM
We'll also consider accepting Roubles.
Are they worth anything? :hmmm:
We'll also consider accepting Roubles.
Are they worth anything? :hmmm: Yes,a small bottle of cherry-schnapps :DL
Betonov
12-04-11, 06:00 AM
Yes,a small bottle of cherry-schnapps :DL
No, Roubles get you vodka, Tolars will get you cherry schnaps
No, Roubles get you vodka, Tolars will get you cherry schnaps Who said I'm in Finland or Moscow, where people drink it like water ..... so cough up a few bottles now before Christmas, and the currency is always changing, :DL
Jimbuna
12-04-11, 06:06 AM
Yes,a small bottle of cherry-schnapps :DL
No, Roubles get you vodka, Tolars will get you cherry schnaps
I'll stick with the £ whilst it still has a 'little' value :doh:
I'll stick with the £ whilst it still has a 'little' value :doh: The pound will be able to do well, just as the Swedish krona, the currencies they will cope with the crisis .... but other countries with € is not that amazing "according to" some future projections .... one day the peanuts will be more expensive, :hmmm:
Jimbuna
12-04-11, 06:17 AM
I suspect those that didn't embrace the Euro will not be hit as hard as those who did but you can get any projection you desire.....dependant on the source you interrogate.
Betonov
12-04-11, 06:19 AM
I just might buy some Kronas, Pounds and Swiss Franks.
A ton of money could be made from the collapse (if you have a ton of money to invest) :doh:
Yes, the Russians.
Putin might be a bad bad person, but Russia needs a tough leader more than a friendly leader.
I suspect those that didn't embrace the Euro will not be hit as hard as those who did but you can get any projection you desire.....dependant on the source you interrogate. Time will tell.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16020632
Note: Update,record 4 December 2011 Last updated at 13:03 GMT
Jimbuna
12-04-11, 09:58 AM
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/57112000/jpg/_57112925_013451105-1.jpg
There can be only one!!
Actually, exit polls are showing that United Russia has, for the first time ever, got less than 50% of the vote - 'only' 48.5% this time, which is actually quite a drastic change for them.
However that's nothing to get excited about. The other 3 parties to get enough votes to pass appear to be the Communist KPRF (19.8), the softer socialist SR (12.8), and the ridiculous nationalist clown party LDPR (11.4). No western-style liberal democratic party pushed the 5% required to pass. There's no unity on the left, and the LDPR is guaranteed to yell loudly and yet be Putin's lap poodle when it comes to actual decisions.
Still interesting to see the fact that the confidence in United Russia has, for the moment, at least somewhat shaken.
The party of Swindlers and Thieves has again won, democracy forever :x
Tribesman
12-04-11, 02:51 PM
the ridiculous nationalist clown party LDPR (11.4).
Surely that is Putins mantle.
Surely that is Putins mantle.
Led by this guy... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Zhirinovsky
Who, as speaker of parliament, has done many things - on camera - like: throwing juice and other objects at his opponents; being vocally anti-semitic despite being half-Jewish himself; founding his foreign policy on reclaiming the old Russian empire which would include Poland, Finland and Alaska (the latter to be populated with traitorous Ukrainians as punishment); assembling a group of top Russian language experts and lecturing them on why [expletive] academics are ruining our language by telling us not to swear, followed by an expletive-filled tirade; appearing in a music video rapping about AIDS; calling for use of nuclear weapons against Japan; suggesting that Condoleeza Rice needs to be raped by a platoon of Russian troops; threatening the use of Russia's secret gravity-control machine to flood the entire United States...
...and the list goes on :doh: When I said "ridiculous nationalist clown party", I actually meant every word of that :O:
http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/5223/05russia3articlelarge.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/268/05russia3articlelarge.jpg/)
Members of Nashi, a pro-Kremlin youth movement, held a victory rally in Moscow on Sunday night.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/05/world/europe/russians-vote-governing-party-claims-early-victory.html?_r=1&hp
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16024938
Note: 5 December 2011 Last updated at 11:40 GMT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzpMhy5citg
:yeah:
At first, I wanted to quote the famous saying coined by Stalin, the one concerning voting and counting votes.
But after watching this film I realized, that in Russia, votes have already been counted before you put one.
Hottentot
12-05-11, 10:43 AM
Led by this guy... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Zhirinovsky
[snip]
...and the list goes on :doh: When I said "ridiculous nationalist clown party", I actually meant every word of that :O:
Ah, the man that makes the Finnish Defence Forces tremble in fear and naughty conscripts sleep with a loaded gun just in case the boogieman comes during the night to take them with him. He can't be all bad if he manages that.
Edit: Oh, and of course as you said, he has secret weapons (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHfZBQyr2Fs) too :D.
Karle94
12-05-11, 11:46 AM
Led by this guy... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Zhirinovsky
Who, as speaker of parliament, has done many things - on camera - like: throwing juice and other objects at his opponents; being vocally anti-semitic despite being half-Jewish himself; founding his foreign policy on reclaiming the old Russian empire which would include Poland, Finland and Alaska (the latter to be populated with traitorous Ukrainians as punishment); assembling a group of top Russian language experts and lecturing them on why [expletive] academics are ruining our language by telling us not to swear, followed by an expletive-filled tirade; appearing in a music video rapping about AIDS; calling for use of nuclear weapons against Japan; suggesting that Condoleeza Rice needs to be raped by a platoon of Russian troops; threatening the use of Russia's secret gravity-control machine to flood the entire United States...
...and the list goes on :doh: When I said "ridiculous nationalist clown party", I actually meant every word of that :O:
Is Russia even capable of taking back Alaska? Sure the US economy is not at its best day. I still believe that the US would win. To get to Alaska they have to go through both the navy and the airforce. Something they can`t do, for the moment. I think its ironic that the US navy has more planes than most airforces combined. I strongly believe that the Russians won`t risk loosing everything they`ve built up the last ten years. Never before has Russia been in such good times. The same goes for China.
Is Russia even capable of taking back Alaska? Sure the US economy is not at its best day. I still believe that the US would win. To get to Alaska they have to go through both the navy and the airforce. Something they can`t do, for the moment. I think its ironic that the US navy has more planes than most airforces combined. I strongly believe that the Russians won`t risk loosing everything they`ve built up the last ten years. Never before has Russia been in such good times. The same goes for China.
I did mention the guy is a clown :dead: I certainly hope noone takes him seriously.
Russia really doesn't have any reason to take over anything. It'd be ludicrous for them to even try. They never needed and could never really sustain Alaska - its "sale" (actually originally signed as a long-term rent) may not have been the most advantageous thing for Russia, but it wasn't really a loss like some nationalists like to paint it either. Bottom line, it's the distant past.
As for Russia having good times - that's very questionable to say the least. A very small proportion of the population and a still-insignificant middle class are definitely not living too badly. But the majority of Russia's population still lives in crushing poverty and massive social, economic and even basic health problems are practically tearing the country apart while the state pretends that everything is okay. The only reason the current regime enjoys popularity is that it's better than previous alternatives in that at least it keeps things more stable. Rather than going through a series of constant economic and social catastrophes (as in the 1990s), the country is slowly bleeding the unwanted parts of its society to death. And Russia is far from immune to global economic problems.
Karle94
12-05-11, 12:23 PM
I did mention the guy is a clown :dead: I certainly hope noone takes him seriously.
Russia really doesn't have any reason to take over anything. It'd be ludicrous for them to even try. They never needed and could never really sustain Alaska - its "sale" (actually originally signed as a long-term rent) may not have been the most advantageous thing for Russia, but it wasn't really a loss like some nationalists like to paint it either. Bottom line, it's the distant past.
As for Russia having good times - that's very questionable to say the least. A very small proportion of the population and a still-insignificant middle class are definitely not living too badly. But the majority of Russia's population still lives in crushing poverty and massive social, economic and even basic health problems are practically tearing the country apart while the state pretends that everything is okay. The only reason the current regime enjoys popularity is that it's better than previous alternatives in that at least it keeps things more stable. Rather than going through a series of constant economic and social catastrophes (as in the 1990s), the country is slowly bleeding the unwanted parts of its society to death. And Russia is far from immune to global economic problems.
I never really said they were in good times. just the best time they`ve ever had.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16042797
Note: Update record,5 December 2011 Last updated at 20:42 GMT
And the protest was, of course, squashed with police and interior troops :shifty:
Skybird
12-06-11, 10:54 AM
I just might buy some Kronas, Pounds and Swiss Franks.
Have you recently checked the events around the Swiss Franken...? :03:
The Swiss try desperately not to see their economic stability drown due the the devaluing of the once strong Franken. It was a desperate mesures that they now linked the exchange rate to the Euro. Pure despair. The Franken lost almost one quarter in - how short time was it? Two years? Or even just one and a half? From one point sixty something to last I think one point low twenties, if I recall correctly.
Once people try to save what cna be saved and move their attention to the Swedish Krona, the Swedes will feel exactly the same kind of burden: their economy strarting to ache andf bow under the devaluing of their currency's exchnage rate.
There are nbo save harbours anymore, let'S face it, you need to have almost isniders knowledge, a total mistrust tpowardsa your bank, and monitoring the investement and economic and political events EVERY damn day.
Try some substantial real investement - in Brasil. They become less and lesser socialsiut, they do stable so far, they hasve plenty of resources, their economy is doing fine - on my list they are one of the best doing economies in this crisis.
However, what is happening currently is imo either a radical system change and if that gets rejected and not done, a total fall, a breaking apart of international market mechanisms as we knew them. We used to have no real value, but debts/credit as the currency traded around. And this cheat does not work anymore.
Skybird
12-06-11, 11:16 AM
Yes, the Russians.
Putin might be a bad bad person, but Russia needs a tough leader more than a friendly leader.
Putin has changed dramatically over the past ten years. After the cold war, and folliowiung Yeltzin, he tried to move Russia closer to Europe, and got the door in his face by NATO, being lied to and betrayed over NASTO's Eastern expansion. He then gave up that policy that not few observers intially compared to the ambitions by Peter the Great to modernise and "Europeanize" Russia.
That his iron hand by which he started to control organised crime and corruption and convinced the oligarchs to just enjoy their wealth but not take over poltiics, else the state would play not nicley with them, and the submission of said organsied crime to the goivernment-loyal adminstration,found only criticism and hostility in the West, did not help to slow down the Russian alientation process. The alternative to Putin's Russia would hjave been a Russia in which the selling-out of Russdia, allowed and tolerated unde ryeltzin, would have continued, seeing Western predators and Russian oligarchs exploiting the Russian weakness as much as possible, leaving the interest of the nation behind.
However, Putin has manouvered himself into a dead end. With the way he has set up the economy and political control, it has almost no space for developement and modernization anymore. The income sources are not really diversified, making Russia extremely dependant on high prices for gas and oil. And POutin himself, imo he has chnaged, psycvhologically, and very much so. It started with the machismo poses by him in the print media that it got my attention. Before, I saw him indeed believbing to act for the best inzterest of the state, but it seems he has switched to an attitude of l'etat c'est moi, turning him more and more into a reactionary tyrant of the kind Russia has seen so many.
However, what is the alternative? We have seen that the mobster wopuld take over the state and turning it into a criminal snake pit and sell Russia to Wetsern entrepreneurs, if the giovenrment becomes liberal and "democratical". The Yeltzin era was a disaster, the man himself a bad joke. Is there a democratic ztradiiton in Russia experienced enough to take over if it gets the card blnache? No. An authority that could keep the organised crime and the oligarchs in check if the state folds over its role as the biggest bad bully of the block? No.
Putin reminds me of a knight who has worn his armour so long and has been forced to play that role so long that now he has changed indeed and no longer is a knight wearing armour, but has become the armour itself, hollow, empty, and with no option to behave any different. And yes, it could become much worse with him, and Russia could fall back into even more oppressive tyranny. But what is the alternative to the system in place right now? If there ever would be such an alternative, it needs to be grown and prepared cautiously and over longer time. Just deleting the Putin-system of state control, a revival of the old Soviet regime that is, and leaving the vacuum after that uinfilled, may produce right the opposite of what wellmeaning pohilantropists in the West hope to see happening. And if we have learned in the present time one thing about democracy, than that is is not perfect, and is an open invitation to corruption, lobbyism, and egoism.
For the West, I would recommend pure pragmatism, and a realistic assessement of one'S own ver ylimited options for influencing Russia. Our major interest is stability, so that the military does not go wild and the nuclearf wepaons stay under well-organsied control. Prevention of civil war and rebellion in the military. This must be our absolute and total priority. We already have North Korea and Pakistan as nuclear risks, we are set to get Iran, followed by Egypt, Saudi arabia, Syria and Turkey as well. The last thing we need is another irrational and irresponsible nuclear bad boy trying to hold the world by its nose.
Respenus
12-06-11, 12:54 PM
The Swiss try desperately not to see their economic stability drown due the the devaluing of the once strong Franken.
Once people try to save what cna be saved and move their attention to the Swedish Krona, the Swedes will feel exactly the same kind of burden...
You mean appreciation, right? If one Euro can buy less Swiss francs, it means that the value of the currency has shot up. Let's take an example of a 1:1 exchange rate. If I can buy 1 franc for 1 Euro today, but 1.2 franc tomorrow, it means that the Swiss currency is worth less. If I can only buy 0.8 franc with the same Euro, it means that the currency in comparison to my own is worth more. But you got your point across and I am not berating you, just wanted to make it more clear to those who might not be aware of the terminology.
As for the buying the Swedish, Norwegian and Swiss currency, together with a general "flight" from Euro savings, please read this article here (http://euobserver.com/19/114517).
Skybird
12-06-11, 01:01 PM
You mean appreciation, right? If one Euro can buy less Swiss francs, it means that the value of the currency has shot up. Let's take an example of a 1:1 exchange rate. If I can buy 1 franc for 1 Euro today, but 1.2 franc tomorrow, it means that the Swiss currency is worth less. If I can only buy 0.8 franc with the same Euro, it means that the currency in comparison to my own is worth more. But you got your point across and I am not berating you, just wanted to make it more clear to those who might not be aware of the terminology.
You are right, I mixed up terms, due to the looks of the numbers, and the fact that a couple my parents are befreinded with, are Swiss. He is/was businessman and financial advisor for some Swiss machinery company, and so we get plenty of unasked :) information about what the events mean for the Franken - and how it threatens both Swiss savings and Swiss economy as well. They did not link the Franken to the Euro for no reason, and that step really means something if you know how "stubborn" :) and independence-craving Swiss mentality is. It is a national mentality, not just that of a few people. You can see that often reflected by the outcome of some referendums they have.
Realistic, cool-calculating people, but also: extremely materialistic and money-fixiated.
PapaKilo
12-06-11, 01:08 PM
Unsuccessfull attempt of vote falsification at School Nr. 13
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-ivBrK0aTo&feature=player_embedded
soopaman2
12-06-11, 01:22 PM
I have a paranoia towards elections.
See my sig quote.
Putin has no chance of losing, Russia has changed little since the cold war, only gotten more adept at disguising the same authoritarian structure.
I like it here in America, where presidents/ leaders "go away" after 8 years (max), pardon my suspicion of Russias system. It just seems Putin doesn't go away.
Reminds me of this.
http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/6177/vladimirputindmitrimedv.jpg
Am I missing something culturally?
Jimbuna
12-06-11, 02:29 PM
And the protest was, of course, squashed with police and interior troops :shifty:
No real suprises there then :-?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16052329
note: Update record,December 2011 Last updated at 17:53 GMT
Putin has no chance of losing, Russia has changed little since the cold war, only gotten more adept at disguising the same authoritarian structure.
It's a bit more complicated than that. Russia has changed, and a lot, but not always for the better. It is definitely a very different place both ideologically and culturally, but some things die slowly.
The real issue that you may be missing culturally is the massive historical and social trauma that hangs over Russian culture as a ghost. It creates a culture of distrust of change - of course it would, because if that change means that you can't feed your kids, or that change could one day result in a knock on your door when "they" would take everything away, you would sooner choose a difficult, rotten system that you could at least predict, and where you at least had food on the table. Most people in the Western world have never had to make the kinds of choices that ordinary Russians did not too long ago. So of course it's puzzling why so many consciously choose a corrupt government that continues their suffering, but from that perspective - it's at least a suffering that they consider predictable and survivable.
Ain't gonna change very easily, I'm afraid.
PapaKilo
12-07-11, 02:41 AM
I still can't understand, why a nation that has litteraly whole table of Mendeleev in it's teritorry, people live there so poorly and living level is low ?
Why Russia is taking care about only two of the cities: Moscow and St. Petersburg. Probably just to show a washed up face of Russia for tourists ?
Takeda Shingen
12-07-11, 09:46 AM
I still can't understand, why a nation that has litteraly whole table of Mendeleev in it's teritorry, people live there so poorly and living level is low ?
Why Russia is taking care about only two of the cities: Moscow and St. Petersburg. Probably just to show a washed up face of Russia for tourists ?
Ever been to Cancun?
Or, indeed, most of the third world! It's not really a unique situation.
Even in St. Petersburg and Moscow, life ain't too sweet in the backstreets (and I say that as someone who grew up there), but it's out in the countryside and minor cities that the real tragedy is happening. Those are the places drinking themselves to death - that's why the Russian male life expectancy is so stupidly low.
Of course, as always the case historically (nothing new about it), the leaders don't care about that as long as their own business is good and as long as the state is stable. But it's been like that for centuries.
soopaman2
12-07-11, 01:53 PM
It's a bit more complicated than that. Russia has changed, and a lot, but not always for the better. It is definitely a very different place both ideologically and culturally, but some things die slowly.
The real issue that you may be missing culturally is the massive historical and social trauma that hangs over Russian culture as a ghost. It creates a culture of distrust of change - of course it would, because if that change means that you can't feed your kids, or that change could one day result in a knock on your door when "they" would take everything away, you would sooner choose a difficult, rotten system that you could at least predict, and where you at least had food on the table. Most people in the Western world have never had to make the kinds of choices that ordinary Russians did not too long ago. So of course it's puzzling why so many consciously choose a corrupt government that continues their suffering, but from that perspective - it's at least a suffering that they consider predictable and survivable.
Ain't gonna change very easily, I'm afraid.
Very good post sir.:salute::rock::yeah:
Thank you
Deep down inside all we seek is stability. I guess as an American I am spoiled, as I never felt true unstability. Unrest sure, but not utter catastrophe.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16072838
Note: Update record,7 December 2011 Last updated at 14:04 GMT
PapaKilo
12-07-11, 05:00 PM
Ever been to Cancun?
No, how is it related or at least familiar with situation in Russia ?
Jimbuna
12-07-11, 05:06 PM
Ever been to Cancun?
Good example...my lad was there the other day and was given a rare shore leave so he went around the local area for an hour or so with the local shipping agent in his car.
There's quite a sharp contrast once you leave the resort area apparently.
soopaman2
12-07-11, 05:09 PM
No, how is it related or at least familiar with situation in Russia ?
He meant how the tourist areas are all built up nicely, and walled in. But you face a high probability of being robbed outside the resort areas. (especially with white skin)
A false facade to make the cash.
PapaKilo
12-07-11, 05:26 PM
I can see this: H. Clinton's playfull attempt few years earlier to "Reset" (failed translation that sounded in russian "peregruzka") relationships between USA and Russia now seems to be falling apart.. Visions about Russia as NATO's partner is rapidly shrinking. Events that are happening nowadays in Russia violates basic foundation of democracy that western countries cherish. How does all these things and much more can be compatible ? This is a question that sooner or later will have to be answered. To my POW Russia doesn't give a damn in honestly wanting to change it's savage character towards peace and order in it's own continent. As if Russia always seeks for pretext to interfere with western standarts and basic understandings in democracy together with how the right of citizen should be treated. Thus repulsing any logical attempts from west in cooperation.
Moreover I can see that Russia owned very fragile part or should I say fed western countries with dissembled democracy as an eye candy in world arena, but now just went tired of it.
So I think this way. And if it is truth I would like to know what was all this show about ? :shifty:
PapaKilo
12-07-11, 05:31 PM
He meant how the tourist areas are all built up nicely, and walled in. But you face a high probability of being robbed outside the resort areas. (especially with white skin)
A false facade to make the cash.
Ahh, thanks for clearing this out :)
However this fact is more common in third countries I believe ?
Fair enough that this might be close to Russia case as well.
No, how is it related or at least familiar with situation in Russia ? Cancun is the easternmost major city in Mexico and is the largest city in the state of Quintana Roo. It is located on the northeastern tip of the Yucatán Peninsula.
Jimbuna
12-07-11, 06:04 PM
http://www.cancunreservations.com/images/fot_destinos/cancun-map.jpg
PapaKilo
12-07-11, 06:51 PM
Poll falsification 2011
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=GTsdIdvJkww
To my POW Russia doesn't give a damn in honestly wanting to change it's savage character towards peace and order in it's own continent. As if Russia always seeks for pretext to interfere with western standarts and basic understandings in democracy together with how the right of citizen should be treated. Thus repulsing any logical attempts from west in cooperation.
You keep talking about "Russia this" and "Russia that", but who do you actually mean when you say "Russia"? Who is this insidious entity that has a savage character and interferes with everything? Are people who got arrested in demonstrations in recent days not Russians also? Are dissident intellectuals and classics of Russian culture are "savage" too? And the average Russian living in poverty? Geopolitical entities don't think and act, specific people driving them do.
Not that I don't think Russians don't deserve the government they have - it's something that everyone does have a collective share of responsibility in. But to distribute that collective responsibility indiscriminately is not the way to go - power has never been distributed equally in Russia. And of course those who do have power are going to repulse Western ideals - accepting and promoting them would be a quick way to dig their own grave.
PapaKilo
12-08-11, 03:31 AM
You keep talking about "Russia this" and "Russia that", but who do you actually mean when you say "Russia"? Who is this insidious entity that has a savage character and interferes with everything? Are people who got arrested in demonstrations in recent days not Russians also? Are dissident intellectuals and classics of Russian culture are "savage" too? And the average Russian living in poverty? Geopolitical entities don't think and act, specific people driving them do.
Not that I don't think Russians don't deserve the government they have - it's something that everyone does have a collective share of responsibility in. But to distribute that collective responsibility indiscriminately is not the way to go - power has never been distributed equally in Russia. And of course those who do have power are going to repulse Western ideals - accepting and promoting them would be a quick way to dig their own grave.
When I say Russia, it is their government I always have in mind. I think this specific savage character came to Russia with bolshevizm back at the time. Russian intellectuals or culture is just a sparkle in the dark. Reminds me about the bright side of Russia decent times that past long time ago.
Why is that you say that if Russia accepted Western ideals this was equated to digging out the grave ? Is the Russia still feels like an empire of evil ?
R. Reagan was right, and still he is..
PapaKilo
12-08-11, 06:30 AM
Putin blames US for post-election protests
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4158891,00.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16084743
Note: Update record,8 December 2011 Last updated at 11:20 GMT
Jimbuna
12-08-11, 07:23 AM
Putin blames US for post-election protests
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4158891,00.html
Suprised....the guy has more neck than a giraffe :DL
Skybird
12-10-11, 03:07 PM
Biggest demosntrations in Russia since 20 years, since collapse of Soviet Union.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16122524 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16122524)
Putin under pressure, no doubt. The government seems to be plan-less. The demonstrators too. Maybe they did not expect to be successful today.
As I said earlier, my biggest interst in Russia is a stable society there, one that redcuces the risk of unrest and the military revolting. I wish the yprotesters good luck. But how do they want to move on if they have no people that could take overfrom and replace the current government while enjoying the trust and support by the military?
At least this time a successful regime chnage would not automatically mean Islamic cavemen taking over and establishing a Sharia-based regime. That's what makes this possible beginning of another political Spring event much more enjoyable than the others we had this year, in North Africa.
soopaman2
12-10-11, 03:31 PM
What would Putin have to gain blaming the US. Maybe his business dealings in Iran and N Korea needed a little legitmizing in the international community?
Always fashionable to blame America, but as always, proof is wanting.
Jimbuna
12-10-11, 04:09 PM
I doubt the protests will go much further but even if they escalated to an extreme above that of Libya et al, who would intervene?
Skybird
12-10-11, 04:58 PM
I doubt the protests will go much further but even if they escalated to an extreme above that of Libya et al, who would intervene?
Nobody. Who would want to mess with the Russians, and on their own soil? The Russian military is not the Libyans.
Jimbuna
12-10-11, 06:02 PM
Nobody. Who would want to mess with the Russians, and on their own soil? The Russian military is not the Libyans.
But why?
They have oil and gas in plentiful supplies :03:
Skybird
12-10-11, 06:12 PM
But why?
They have oil and gas in plentiful supplies :03:
They also have teeth and claws and a grim temper.
Jimbuna
12-10-11, 06:17 PM
They also have teeth and claws and a grim temper.
Precisely :yep:
You also speak from experience me thinks :03:
The West should've "intervened" and helped establish actual democracy back in the early 90s instead of celebrating their Cold War victory and the misery of their former enemy. Not intervene in the sense of bombing, of course, but in terms of welcoming Russia to the international community and helping get the economy and political processes back on track. Instead they rooted for a corrupt Yeltsin regime while providing little actual cooperation. Too late for that now. IMO while accusing "America" of causing trouble is ludicrous, Western Russophobia and reluctance to engage productively with a 'new Russia' in the 90s does have its share of blame in the state of affairs now.
Otherwise, there's also the historical experience. There was a Western intervention during the Civil War... didn't go very far either.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_intervention_in_the_Russian_Civil_War
Skybird
12-10-11, 07:51 PM
The West should've "intervened" and helped establish actual democracy back in the early 90s instead of celebrating their Cold War victory and the misery of their former enemy. Not intervene in the sense of bombing, of course, but in terms of welcoming Russia to the international community and helping get the economy and political processes back on track. Instead they rooted for a corrupt Yeltsin regime while providing little actual cooperation. Too late for that now. IMO while accusing "America" of causing trouble is ludicrous, Western Russophobia and reluctance to engage productively with a 'new Russia' in the 90s does have its share of blame in the state of affairs now.
The West did "intervene in Russia. It'S entrepreneurs and predator capitalists went to Russia, helped the oligarchs and the organised crime to power, tried to get as much gold as possible filled in its pockets, and left in ruins what Yeltzin was not willing to defend.
It was a disaster for Russia. ;)
The later course by Putin was to tackle these oligarchs and ban them from corrupting the state even more. To some degree, the West has to face a causal responsibility for Putin's course in the early years of his reign.
The NATO made several priomises to Russia and gave them verbal guarantees in which teh Russians trusyted, namely on Eastrern expansion, just to betray them later and to break practically all these promises, did not really prove to be helpful in restoring Russian trust.
Yeltzin was a disaster for Russia. Okay, he played his role at the White House coup. But that was all, as I see it.
Well, and therein lies the problem - he played his role in the White House coup, and that was perhaps the thing that messed up Russia most for years to come. His handling of it did more damage to Russian politics than anything since. By putting it down violently and forcing a constitution that has made every branch of government except the executive irrelevant, he paved the way for Putin & co. The current elections are just another reminder of the fact that parliamentary politics only matter as far as "sending a signal" to the president, or foretelling future support. But the only office in the land that actually matters is the president's, and we have Yeltsin to thank for that.
Seth8530
12-10-11, 11:50 PM
Reports now have it that protest could be well over 40,000... Now that would be a sight to see.. I hope this does not hamper my plans to visit st pete this summer....
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