70 years ago...

[TarJak]

this week, Pearl Harbour was attacked by 350 Japanese planes, bringing the US into the war. Salute all who served. :salute:

[Platapus]

I thought that happened on 7 Dec 1941

[Jimbuna]

I thought it was the morning of Dec 7th mate....tis also my fathers memory :hmmm:

[soopaman2]

Yeah, the 7th.

But we can give a salute to the Japanese leadership for thinking it was a great idea.:D

Then on the 7th we can laugh at them for trying.

[CCIP]

Indeed, you are a few days early. I've been planning to mark the day myself by starting my first War in the Pacific campaign!

However it's also worth pointing out that 70 years ago today the Japanese fleet was already almost on station north of Hawaii and there wasn't much that would've stopped it. The wheels of history were about to turn...

Also important to remember - 70 years ago tomorrow (Dec. 5th), the first Soviet strategic counter-offensive was successfully launched, repelling the Germans from the gates of Moscow. A no less key moment in the course of the war.

[nikimcbee]

(I think he hit the foster's sauce again):doh::88)

[Gerald]

(I think he hit the foster's sauce again):doh::88) Me too, :smug:

[soopaman2]

I am happy a fella from Oz thought enough of another one of Britains children to hold a tribute.

Thanks!

We all lost alot in that war, no matter the side.

[Jimbuna]

(I think he hit the foster's sauce again):doh::88)

LOL :DL

[Rockstar]

I thought it was the morning of Dec 7th mate....tis also my fathers memory :hmmm:


December 8th if you live in Japan

[Jimbuna]

I'm looking at a time zone map and can't find Hawaii :doh:

[PapaKilo]

Don't blame Tarjak, he just wanted to be an early bird on this topic :)

[Gerald]

I'm looking at a time zone map and can't find Hawaii :doh:
Look here,

http://worldtimezone.net/time-usa12.php

http://worldtimezone.net/

[Jimbuna]

That's better :sunny:

[Gargamel]

I'm looking at a time zone map and can't find Hawaii :doh:

Well that 'splains why I cant find it in GWX either.

That would be neat to see, that scripted into the game. Sneak into the harbor (or just sail in, its neutral) and watch the fireworks.

[1480]

Well that 'splains why I cant find it in GWX either.


:har:

Yes, it's the 07DEC1941. I'll never forget since its my date of appointment on the job.

[TarJak]

:88) I hate typing on my phone. Two key words in the OP got missed.

Oh well April Fool. :O::D

[Schroeder]

:har:

Yes, it's the 07DEC1941. I'll never forget since its my date of appointment on the job.
You got an appointment in 1941?
STEVE SOMEONE HERE IS OLDER THAN YOU!!!:O:

[Jimbuna]

:88) I hate typing on my phone. Two key words in the OP got missed.

Oh well April Fool. :O::D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFTNsxlhwfc

:DL

[Oberon]

It's just a flight of B-17s from the mainland...nothing to worry about...

[Sailor Steve]

You got an appointment in 1941?
STEVE SOMEONE HERE IS OLDER THAN YOU!!!:O:
Yeah. Geetrue.

[Takeda Shingen]

Didn't we used to have a guy around here that was older than Geetrue as well?

[nikimcbee]

Didn't we used to have a guy around here that was older than Geetrue as well?

You mean Steve?







(sry couldn't resist:D)

[nikimcbee]

:88) I hate typing on my phone. Two key words in the OP got missed.

Oh well April Fool. :O::D

So what I learned from this thread, aside from the PH stuff, if you text, don't drink.:D

[Sailor Steve]

You mean Steve?







(sry couldn't resist:D)
:doh: If he's older than I'm older than he's older than...:doh:

[Sailor Steve]

Didn't we used to have a guy around here that was older than Geetrue as well?
I don't know exact ages, but Elder_Pirate is up there, along with Gunfighter and Viking Grandad. On the other hand it's been awhile since any of them has reported in, so... :06:

[Jimbuna]

If your referring to the Viking Grandad that helped the GWX team he was quite a ways younger than me :o

[Sailor Steve]

Really? I thought I remember him saying he was in his 70s. Oh, well, the memory is the first thing to go.

[Jimbuna]

Really? I thought I remember him saying he was in his 70s. Oh, well, the memory is the first thing to go.

I've sent you his picture via a PM :sunny:

[Gerald]

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=190138

[Sailor Steve]

I've sent you his picture via a PM :sunny:
I got it. :oops: :rotfl2:

On the other hand if he's that young why the "Grandad"? :stare:

[Jimbuna]

I got it. :oops: :rotfl2:

On the other hand if he's that young why the "Grandad"? :stare:

Tis a long story...started in the days he was a moderator on the Ubi forums.

His mate and another ex Ubisoft moderator who came over to the dark side to help us was.....I've forgotten his name but I've got his real name and a picture :oops:

Can you remember who the Ubisoft SH3 moderators were?

EDIT

Just remembered...Realjambo

[Sailor Steve]

Not a clue. My memory is great for things that interest me and for embarassing mistakes I've made, but a lot of the time I don't remember all the moderators here. :oops:

[Jimbuna]

Sent you another PM :03:

[Sailor Steve]

Got it. Didn't get it. :sunny:

[Jimbuna]

Got it. Didn't get it. :sunny:

Further PM sent....hope you get it when you've got it :DL

[Sailor Steve]

Get it?

Got it.

Good!

[Jimbuna]

Good man :sunny:

[kiwi_2005]

couple of days early Tarjak, I notice you said 'this week' maybe you getting yur thread in before the others. :hmmm: :DL

[Takeda Shingen]

I'll be starting my Happy New Year thread tomorrow. :O:

[Reece]

I'll be starting my Happy New Year thread tomorrow. :O:
I thought that was Easter!:hmmm:

[1480]

You got an appointment in 1941?
STEVE SOMEONE HERE IS OLDER THAN YOU!!!:O:


You got me....meant 1992.:oops:

[August]

70 years ago today. December 4th 1941:

Admiral Nagumo and the Japanese task force having made the turn sound continues to steam at high speed toward the Hawaiian islands. Their air crews are studying ship silhouettes and harbor mockups. Maintenance crews are making final tweaks to the aircraft.

U.S. PBY Catalina report 30 Japanese troop transports, assembled in preceding days, are no longer in Cam Ranh Bay.

River gunboats USS Luzon (PR-7) and USS Oahu (PR-6) followed later by submarine rescue vessel USS Pigeon (ASR-6) and minesweeper Finch (AM-9), reach Manila.

River gunboat USS Mindanao (PR-8) sails from Hong Kong for Manila. She is the last U.S. Navy ship to depart Chinese waters prior to war.

SS President Harrison sails for Beijing to evacuate Marines from embassy. She will never make it.

Japanese plane reconnoiters Wake Island undetected.

Schedule of Pearl Harbor attack transmitted to the submarine fleet.

The USS Enterprise and her task force has arrived today at Wake island to deliver fighter planes to the Marines stationed there.

The USS Lexington and her task force are preparing to depart Pearl Harbor in the morning on a trip to deliver bombers to Midway Island.

The USS Saratoga is currently enroute back to the West Coast for repairs.

The USS Nimitz is has just put to sea for routine exercises. The Final Countdown has begun...

[mapuc]

The USS Nimitz is has just put to sea for routine exercises. The Final Countdown has begun...

Have the been an earlie version of USS Nimitz in USN with that name? I have always learn that ship were named after some famouse person in US, after they had died

What I have known until now is that USS Nimitz was named after a famouse fleet admiral. The carries first journey was in the beginning of the 70'ies.


Markus

[TLAM Strike]

Have the been an earlie version of USS Nimitz in USN with that name?
No the carrier was the first Nimitz.

Although there is a Camp Nimitz at the Naval Training Center in San Diego.

August was making a reference to a movie (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080736/).

[Oberon]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_9ppk5WpjmTc/TPtzlIxKNuI/AAAAAAAAEpo/gzvbyd0gtyE/s1600/Picture+3.png

[1480]

No the carrier was the first Nimitz.

Although there is a Camp Nimitz at the Naval Training Center in San Diego.

August was making a reference to a movie (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080736/).

It was cool back then, though I know it did not make my top 10.

[Sailor Steve]

It was cool back then, though I know it did not make my top 10.
Yes it was. I seem to forget it on a regular basis, but now I have a sudden urge to watch it again. Maybe because it's been 31 years.

[TLAM Strike]

If you liked The Final Countdown check out this book series:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_of_Time

I only read the first one but it was awesome. Think of it as The Final Countdown but the ships from the future decide to stay and fight. :rock:

[Sailor Steve]

Long before either one of them I read this marvelous little book.
http://nebulogs.blogspot.com/2010/09/ship-that-sailed-time-stream-1965.html

I think I might still have my original copy somewhere in my storage.

[1480]

[after recieving the order to abort the attack on the Japanese Task Force]
Strike Leader: Read you loud and clear. Strike force this is strike leader, return to base, mission aborted.
F-14 pilot #1: Mission aborted? But we can see 'em!
F-14 pilot #2: They're gonna let the Japs do it again.

Classic.

[Jimbuna]

If you liked The Final Countdown check out this book series:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_of_Time

I only read the first one but it was awesome. Think of it as The Final Countdown but the ships from the future decide to stay and fight. :rock:

Sounds like a great trilogy...on it now :sunny:

[August]

Just FYI the rest of that stuff on the list is accurate.

BTW 70 years ago today while the Japanese task force approaches the Hawaiian islands the Soviets launch a massive counterattack against the German army outside Moscow and Great Britain declares war against Finland, Hungary and Romania.

[STEED]

Just FYI the rest of that stuff on the list is accurate.

BTW 70 years ago today while the Japanese task force approaches the Hawaiian islands the Soviets launch a massive counterattack against the German army outside Moscow and Great Britain declares war against Finland, Hungary and Romania.

Not forgetting the European War would become World War Two. This Wednesday marks the Empire of Japan starting out in there five month Blitzkrieg in the pacific.

[Oberon]

Not forgetting the European War would become World War Two. This Wednesday marks the Empire of Japan starting out in there five month Blitzkrieg in the pacific.

"In the first six to twelve months of a war with the United States and Great Britain I will run wild and win victory upon victory. But then if the war continues after that, I have no expectation of success."

[August]

"In the first six to twelve months of a war with the United States and Great Britain I will run wild and win victory upon victory. But then if the war continues after that, I have no expectation of success."

Sounds like someone only heard the first sentence. :DL

[Bilge_Rat]

As August noted, 70 years ago today, december 5, 1941, the Red Army launched its counter-offensive pushing the German Heer back from Moscow.

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/7277/poster175.jpg

[Jimbuna]

Point taken :yep:

[August]

December 5th 1941

Japanese ambassador assures the U.S. government that her troop movements in French Indochina are only precautionary.

Destroyer escorts of the Japanese Singapore invasion fleet board and smash the radio of a Neutral Norwegian freighter.

USS Lexington (CV-2), TF 12 leaves Pearl Harbor to ferry USMC dive bombers to Midway island.27ea Japanese troop transports are preparing to depart from Taiwan in the morning, bound for the Philippine Islands.

Japanese submarines arrive at their patrol positions around Hawaii.

[Jimbuna]

Japan loses.....eventually :sunny:

[1480]

December 5th 1941

Japanese ambassador assures the U.S. government that her troop movements in French Indochina are only precautionary.

Destroyer escorts of the Japanese Singapore invasion fleet board and smash the radio of a Neutral Norwegian freighter.

USS Lexington (CV-2), TF 12 leaves Pearl Harbor to ferry USMC dive bombers to Midway island.27ea Japanese troop transports are preparing to depart from Taiwan in the morning, bound for the Philippine Islands.

Japanese submarines arrive at their patrol positions around Hawaii.

What no mention of the great conspiracy that FDR knew of the attack on PH but did nothing to stop it, so congress would declare war......:DL

[Oberon]

What no mention of the great conspiracy that FDR knew of the attack on PH but did nothing to stop it, so congress would declare war......:DL

Don't even go there...please... :har:

[1480]

Don't even go there...please... :har:

Someone had to :yeah:

[Oberon]

Sounds like someone only heard the first sentence. :DL

Aye, if they had listened a bit more to Yamamoto then things could have been so much more different. He was a wise man...not perfect, nobody is that...but he knew more than most of the Imperial Japanese elite that war with America was a suicidal decision, no matter how many losses you inflict on the US Navy, they will rebuild, faster and stronger than Japan could match.
But no, they went ahead anyway and as a servant to the Emperor all Yamamoto could do was make the best of it, and no matter how you view the attack on Pearl Harbour it was a textbook example of a surprise attack.

[August]

Japan loses.....eventually :sunny:

Thank God for that. Can you imagine a world where the Axis was victorious? :o

[1480]

Thank God for that. Can you imagine a world where the Axis was victorious? :o

Lexus and Benz.

Sushi and kraut.

Beer and vino.

Lederhosen and kimonos.

I'd be awful gassy. But my ride would be pimped out.

[Oberon]

Thank God for that. Can you imagine a world where the Axis was victorious? :o

Many have:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_victory_in_World_War_II

[Jimbuna]

Thank God for that. Can you imagine a world where the Axis was victorious? :o

That is why the western world in particular owe the US a great amount of gratitude :salute:

[August]

That is why the western world in particular owe the US a great amount of gratitude :salute:


And to Great Britain for bearing the burden of defending freedom alone until we got our act together to come over and help.

[Jimbuna]

And to Great Britain for bearing the burden of defending freedom alone until we got our act together to come over and help.

Well, you know what we say over here...better late than never :03:

[Arlo]

I'm looking forward to this thread re-starting tomorrow.

[August]

December 6th 1941

The Japanese begin sending the 14 part ultimatum to their embassy in Washington to be delivered 30 minutes before the bombs start dropping on Pearl Harbor.

President Roosevelt makes a personal appeal to Emperor Hirohito for peace.

The FBI monitors an early morning telephone call in Japanese from a Dr. Mori in Honolulu to a Tokyo newspaper reporter. The message details such things as flying conditions around the islands, the number of searchlights and soldiers in town, and what ships are moored in Pearl Harbor. The Doctor then notes that the "Poinsettias and hibiscus" (obvious code words) are blooming in Honolulu. Translated by the FBI, the information ends up on the desk of General Short's intelligence officer by 4:00. Short, the Army half of the Army-Navy co-command at Pearl, is presented with the information at 5:30. His reaction is recorded: "The message was quite in order, that it described the situation in Hawaii as it was, and that possibly there was nothing very much to be excited about the content of the message."

From the Diary of Lieutenant Commander Chigusa (X0 of the destroyer Akigumo):
0700. The time has come. As soon as we received orders, Course 180 degrees and Speed 20 kts from the flagship, the Akagi, we immediately increased our speed to begin our dash true south to Pearl Harbor. Our large white waves together with those of the other consort ships of the Fleet marked our path and put us in high spirits... 0710. The signals flags "D-G" were gallantly hoisted high on the mast of the flagship, the Akagi, meaning: "The fate of the Japanese Empire will depend upon the issue of this battle, so please everyone exert yourself to the utmost." This was no doubt the direct order and instruction of Vice Admiral Nagumo, Commander-in-Chief of the Fleet Task Force. Were there any sailors not excited over the honor, as a member of the Task Force, of receiving this order? I have heard many times of that order given by the "Z" flag from Admiral Togo in the Japan Sea Battle against Russia in 1905. Now I have actually received the same order myself.
Following this we received an encouraging address from Admiral Yamamoto, Commander-in-Chief of the Great Fleet: "The fate of the Empire rests on this campaign. Please do all in your power so as to carry out your duties." We also had the gracious Imperial Rescript which was transmitted by the Commander-in-Chief of the Great Fleet through wireless. These messages were transmitted to all the crew of my ship by our Commanding Officer. Our morale grew higher every moment as our fleet was on the enemy's line to the south. We completed all remaining preparations for war and battle which had not been completed in the morning.
On receiving the order "Be well dressed," we changed to clean uniforms for battle. After that, both my ship and myself had completed our preparations for attack against the enemy at any time. .... I had felt very uneasy throughout the day, fearing that our enemy might observe our fleet dashing toward the south to Pearl Harbor, because today is really the last day before our combat. Our fleet continues on its bold dash throughout the night to close in upon Pearl Harbor bravely in rapid formation.


From the war diary of the German naval attache in Tokyo:
Conversation with Fregattenkapitaen Shiba.1. Last week America offered a non-aggression pact between the United States, England, Russia and Japan. In view of the Tripartite Pact and the high counter-demands, Japan rejected this offer. Negotiations have therefore completely broken down.2. The Armed Forces foresaw this development and consented to Kurusu's being sent only to impress the people with the fact that all means had been exhausted.3. The Armed Forces have already decided 3 weeks ago that war is inevitable, even if the United States at the last minute should make substantial concessions. Appropriate measures are under way. .... No exact details are available as to the zero hour for the commencement of the southern offensive. All the evidence, however, indicates that it may be expected to start within 3 weeks, with simultaneous attacks on Siam, the Philippines and Borneo.6. The Ambassador has no knowledge of the transmission of the telegram, but is acquainted with its contents. ....A state of war with Britain and America would certainly exist by Christmas.

From the Duty Book of Captain Shigeshi Uchida:
At 1020 our army plane shot down a British plane tracking our Malay invasion force. All members of the section stayed in the NGS the night of the 7th (except Prince Takamatsu and Marquis Katcho). (News also came in that at Wake Island 12 aircraft were on the land airdrome and 6 flying boats were also at Wake. (Dillon)

Note: The shot down aircraft was Australian and it's pilot became the first Allied casualty of the Pacific theater of WW2.

At 21:00 hours the Japanese fleet reaches the 158th meridian, 490 sea miles north of Hawaii Islands. They have met no ships during the twelve day journey. Heavy winds had torn the flags into pieces and pushed more than ten sailors into the rough sea. Everything else goes according to plans.

[soopaman2]

That is why the western world in particular owe the US a great amount of gratitude :salute:

And to Great Britain for bearing the burden of defending freedom alone until we got our act together to come over and help.


It was a perfectly coordinated effort. The battle of Britain must have been brutal, and your strength and courage endured, from general to civilian, a proud people!
And honestly, America gets alot of credit as we bore the brunt of the European campaign once we got in it. But without Britain holding the line, it would have been hopeless. And without Canadians and Brits doing their part on D day, it would have failed.

Pre war (for the USA) Roosevelt did everything he could to help. Continuing trade. The lend lease act.

America in the 30s was mired in depression and preffered to look inwards. Also WW1 soured the public on war in general.

FDR saw the big picture. And he did everything in his power to involve the US without involving them.

December 7th was a gift from heaven for America, and for Europe.

[Jimbuna]

It was a perfectly coordinated effort. The battle of Britain must have been brutal, and your strength and courage endured, from general to civilian, a proud people!
And honestly, America gets alot of credit as we bore the brunt of the European campaign once we got in it. But without Britain holding the line, it would have been hopeless. And without Canadians and Brits doing their part on D day, it would have failed.

Pre war (for the USA) Roosevelt did everything he could to help. Continuing trade. The lend lease act.

America in the 30s was mired in depression and preffered to look inwards. Also WW1 soured the public on war in general.

FDR saw the big picture. And he did everything in his power to involve the US without involving them.

December 7th was a gift from heaven for America, and for Europe.

Good post...Roosevelt was a great friend to the UK :sunny:

[TarJak]

And to Great Britain for bearing the burden of defending freedom alone until we got our act together to come over and help.

Great Britain and the other Empire & Commonwealth nations.

[August]

Great Britain and the other Empire & Commonwealth nations.

Sorry all you limeys look alike to me! :D

No seriously from my previous post:

From the Duty Book of Captain Shigeshi Uchida:
At 1020 our army plane shot down a British plane tracking our Malay invasion force. All members of the section stayed in the NGS the night of the 7th (except Prince Takamatsu and Marquis Katcho). (News also came in that at Wake Island 12 aircraft were on the land airdrome and 6 flying boats were also at Wake. (Dillon)

Note: The shot down aircraft was Australian and it's pilot became the first Allied casualty of the Pacific theater of WW2.

Australia beat everyone to the fight. :salute:

[Jimbuna]

Rgr that :salute:

[TarJak]

Sorry all you limeys look alike to me! :D

LOL

Australia beat everyone to the fight. :salute:

We sure did, but I reckon there were a lot of Chinese that got whacked before then.;)

[Oberon]

"Air Raid Pearl Harbor. This is not a drill!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIKdsMPMwAI

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-24018856-after-70-years-pearl-harbour-sailor-rests-with-comrades.do

"We won a great tactical victory at Pearl Harbor and thereby lost the war."
- Admiral Hara Tadaichi

[Sailor Steve]

That second link is wonderful. He wanted to be buried with his fallen friends. Awesome. :sunny:

[August]

70 years ago at this very moment the attack has been going on for about 10 minutes.

[Oberon]

The Arizona has taken a fatal hit, killing some 1177 (nearly half of the total US casualties of the day). Her magazine explodes and there is nothing that can be done to save her.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1e/Pearlharborcolork13513.jpg

The USS Oklahoma is capsizing after taking a brace of torpedoes to the side.

http://libweb.hawaii.edu/libdept/archives/mss/wwii/walden/images/wva10.jpg

[soopaman2]

"We have awoken a sleeping giant."

Isoroku Yamamoto

[Oberon]

"We have awoken a sleeping giant."

Isoroku Yamamoto



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isoroku_Yamamoto%27s_sleeping_giant_quote

[Hottentot]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isoroku_Yamamoto%27s_sleeping_giant_quote

Why am I not surprised? Oh, right, that's because this happens all the time.

[Catfish]

Good post...Roosevelt was a great friend to the UK :sunny:

Yes, but he was on a lonely post - congress, political parties and a lot of big industry was against a war. He only brought the lend-lease through with a trick, and it seems only FDR and some military circles really saw that a war would be inevitable, if England was to be rescued.
Herman Wouk's "The winds of war" is a fictional but excellent book, at least from a US naval point of view, about the time.

Greetings,
Catfish

[nikimcbee]

Here's to the PT-boaters that were there and and kicked some tail

Report 1-2 - "They Look Like. . . . . . ."On the morning of December 7, 1941, six PTs, the 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, and 25, were moored at the Pearl Harbor Submarine Base in three nests of two boats each, alongside and ahead of the YR-20, a covered barge which served, for lack of anything better, as tender for Squadron 1. Aboard the barge the boat crews were eating breakfast. The Squadron Duty Officer, Ens. N. E. Ball, USNR, was standing on the edge of the barge. Looking out across Kuhua Island, he saw planes in the sky, and watched them idly for a moment as they started to dive toward Battleship Row and Ford Island just beyond. Then four things happened, almost simultaneously. Ensign Ball recognized Japanese insignia on the wingtips; a chief petty officer at his elbow remarked, "They look like . . . . . . . . ."; the first bomb dropped, and Ensign Ball plunged into the mess hall, shouting, "Man The Guns!"

PTs in those days were lightly gunned ***8211; two pairs of .50-caliber machine guns mounted in power-driven turrets, but in a matter of seconds all were firing. Joy Van Zyll de Jong, GM1c, and George B. Huffman, TM1c, who had been sitting on deck of PT 23, got a slight head start on the men from the mess hall. They vaulted into the 23 boat's turrets and claimed first blood with hits on a low-flying plane carrying one torpedo, which crashed in flames near Kuahua Island. They also hit a torpedo plane flying over Magazine Point. It burst into flames and fell near Halawa, behind the Submarine Base.

Across Southeast Loch from the Submarine Base, about halfway to Ford Island, the other six boats of the squadron were being loaded aboard the USS Ramapo, an oiler, for shipment to the Philippines. PTs 27, 29, 30, and 42 were in cradles resting on the Ramapo's deck. PTs 26 and 28 were in cradles on the dock beneath the huge hammerhead crane which had been about to hoist them aboard the oiler. To reduce fire hazard during shipment, the gasoline tanks of all six PTs had been blanketed with carbon dioxide. Consequently the crews could not start the gasoline engines to compress the air which in turn forced oil through cylinders to move the power turrets. The boat crews quickly cut the hydraulic lines, freeing the turrets from the brake of residual hydraulic pressure. Then each pair of .50-caliber machine guns went into action with a four man crew: one man to fire the guns, two men to slew the turrets around by hand, and an officer to direct and coordinate the slewing and firing. The Ramapo's guns were firing too. Though her starboard 3-inch guns were blanked off by the hammerhead crane on the dock, they managed to fire from time to time, to the acute discomfort of the crews of the PTs in cradles on the dock, whose decks were just high enough to catch the muzzle blast. One bomb struck near the port bow of the Ramapo, midway between the repair ship Rigel in the berth ahead and the heavy cruiser New Orleans just opposite. The PTs, undamaged, poured out more than 4,000 rounds of .50-caliber. They appeared to be hitting Japanese planes, but so many ships were firing simultaneously that it would be futile to attempt to make specific claims.



http://www.ptboats.org/20-07-05-reports-002.html

[nikimcbee]

Huzzah to the USS Ward.
History confirmed:
http://www.soest.hawaii.edu/HURL/midget.html

[nikimcbee]

off to watch Tora!Tora!Tora!

[nikimcbee]

What, no love for Tarjak's thread?:cry::hmmm:


bump.

[Madox58]

Saddest part is that America Gave Japan the idea on the attack, but We totally ignored the lesson.
:nope:

If you look at things in the same light today? We are setting ourselves up for another such attack.
And December 2012 draws closer.
:-?

[TLAM Strike]

Saddest part is that America Gave Japan the idea on the attack, but We totally ignored the lesson.
:nope: How did we do that? :hmmm:

The Pearl Harbor operation was based partially on the RN's Toranto Raid and the Japan's (unsuccessful) surprise attack on Port Aurthur in the Russo-Japanese war. :yep:

[Madox58]

Japan considered an attack on Pearl Harbor long before Toranto because We had everything there for the takeing.
(Never place all your Eggs in one basket)

It was not until Toranto that they saw the answer.
We saw it also but ignored it.
Along with the failings of key people that just screams of what is going on today.

And I should have posted 'lessons' not 'lesson'.

[Sailor Steve]

How did we do that?
In 1932 Admiral Harry E. Yarnell showed how easily Pearl Harbor could be attacked. These war games were publicized around the world, and the Japanese used the studies at their war college.

In 1938 Admiral Ernest King repeated the experiment, with the same success. In 1940 Admiral James Richardson was relieved of command for opposing the moving of the Pacific Fleet from San Francisco to Pearl harbor. All of this was public knowledge.
http://www.ussflierproject.com/tags/1932-attack-on-pearl-harbor/

[Madox58]

Bravo Steve!
:rock:

I could not find that info even though I knew of it.

[August]

Japan considered an attack on Pearl Harbor long before Toranto because We had everything there for the takeing.
(Never place all your Eggs in one basket)

But our eggs weren't in one basket. :hmmm:

Pearl was a big base sure but it wasn't the only military installation we had in the Pacific or even the largest.

[Sailor Steve]

Thank you. Thank you. *looks for a 'taking a bow' gif but doesn't see one*

One thing I found interesting was that a British writer predicted the Pacific War as early as 1925. He got some of the details wrong, predicting an attack on Manila rather than Hawaii, but his foretelling of the actual campaign was quite accurate, probably because both Japanese and American strategists used the book as a guide.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hector_Charles_Bywater
http://www.lindseywilliams.org/LAL_Archives/Reporter_Predicted_Japanese_Attack.htm

And copies of the book are available.
http://www.amazon.com/Great-Pacific-War-American-Japanese-1931-1933/dp/1557095574/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1323311765&sr=1-1

[Madox58]

It was where all the power was.
Kill the Pacific Fleet? The island bases and such fall.
That was proven to an almost fatal extent only avoided by the failure to destroy the AirCraft Carriers that were the targets of most importance.

Had Japan got those? Midway would have been a different story along with many other battles.

[Sailor Steve]

But our eggs weren't in one basket. :hmmm:

Pearl was a big base sure but it wasn't the only military installation we had in the Pacific or even the largest.
The size of the base hardly matters. All of our Pacific battleships and carriers were stationed there, and the only BB not there at the time was Colorado, being overhauled at Bremerton, Washington. Pearl Harbor may not have been the biggest basket, but all our Pacific eggs were indeed there.

[nikimcbee]

It would have been interesting if Yamamoto didn't win out and the Japanese "old guard" won out and attacked with battleships instead of aircraft. Along Mahanian theory.

Along those lines, do you think Japan could have held the Hawaiian Islands, if they had an invasion fleet following the attack? Do you think they could have taken the Islands if they wanted? Maybe skip the Philipines and put all of that effort into Hawaii?

Just a thought.

[Madox58]

Your right Steve.
Why do people think there are 'War Collages'?
To study past engagements and tactics so they may be adapted and applied, useing the latest technology, to todays Battlefields.

[Sailor Steve]

@ McBee: Taken it? With enough force any island can be taken, especially if the naval and air forces are destroyed first.

Held it? For how long? What can be taken can be retaken, just as the Philippines were.

[Madox58]

I have no doubt they could have taken Hawaii if they wanted at that time.
I doubt they would have held it long and there probably would have been more then 2 Nukes gifted to them at the end.

[TLAM Strike]

It would have been interesting if Yamamoto didn't win out and the Japanese "old guard" won out and attacked with battleships instead of aircraft. Along Mahanian theory.

Along those lines, do you think Japan could have held the Hawaiian Islands, if they had an invasion fleet following the attack? Do you think they could have taken the Islands if they wanted? Maybe skip the Philipines and put all of that effort into Hawaii?

Just a thought.

Mahanian theory disregards what types of ships they are. Is the concentration of force and the destruction of the enemy's main attack force that is critical in Mahan's doctrine.

I really doubt the Japanese could have held the islands. Their supply lines would have been stretched thin by it. Basing their ships there would have left them exposed to attrition by US forces based on the west coast.

[Madox58]

I'm really wondering why they messed about in the Aleutian islands.
Same problem with no major victory or advantages gained.

[August]

The size of the base hardly matters. All of our Pacific battleships and carriers were stationed there, and the only BB not there at the time was Colorado, being overhauled at Bremerton, Washington. Pearl Harbor may not have been the biggest basket, but all our Pacific eggs were indeed there.

Well not all. There is more to military power than just Naval and we weren't the only allied navy in the region. I'm not arguing that Pearl was not the target of 1st choice but it was not everything we had to fight with either (obviously).

[August]

I'm really wondering why they messed about in the Aleutian islands.
Same problem with no major victory or advantages gained.

Diversion for the Midway attack I thought.

[Madox58]

Diversion for the Midway attack I thought.
I've read that and other thoughts and I still do not see the logic in any of them when you look at supply line problems.

I kind of think of it as Japans version of Hitler attacking the Soviet Union.
A waste of good troops to gain nothing.

[nikimcbee]

Mahanian theory disregards what types of ships they are. Is the concentration of force and the destruction of the enemy's main attack force that is critical in Mahan's doctrine.

I really doubt the Japanese could have held the islands. Their supply lines would have been stretched thin by it. Basing their ships there would have left them exposed to attrition by US forces based on the west coast.

I believe their original stategy was to draw out the US fleet and whoop it in a surface battle (enter Yamato). I don't remember at what point they switched to Yamamoto's idea.

[nikimcbee]

Diversion for the Midway attack I thought.

It was also to draw out our main fleet into the open.

[Madox58]

It was also to draw out our main fleet into the open.
And that didn't work because We looked at the attack and said.....
'Cut the supply line and let the Bastards starve and freeze to death.'

[August]

I've read that and other thoughts and I still do not see the logic in any of them when you look at supply line problems.

Banzai charges and ritual mass suicides aren't logical either but the Japanese were known for them throughout the war.

Besides a Midway diversion there was also a propaganda value. It was after all American soil. In their mind we would break ourselves trying to remove them just like they would if we seized one of their home islands.

[Madox58]

True point.
It's probable what got them Nuked at the end.

[August]

True point.
It's probable what got them Nuked at the end.

Nah, what got them nuked was the spectre of a couple of million Allied casualties trying to take the Japanese home islands by land assault. Okinawa and Iwo Jima were just tastes of the reception our boys would have gotten. I'd have nuked them too, and kept on nuking them until they threw in the towel.

[Oberon]

Ironic that the conversation of invading Hawaii (or Oahu to be precise) comes about as I'm rereading "Days of Infamy" by Harry Turtledove. Now, you can pick apart Turtledoves knowledge of military equipment, but even he has to admit that supplying Pearl Harbour after invading it would have been a logistical nightmare and would have done little but pad the Pacific war out by a year maximum. As Yamamoto foresaw, once the US 'arsenal of democracy' got into full gear, there was simply no way to stop it, defeat was a certainty, I think the Japanese plan from '43 onwards was to make each American victory as costly as possible and thank God that Operation Olympic never went ahead.
Another scenario I've pondered about though is Japan leaving China alone from the beginning (it was a mess to get into) and then hitting the Soviet Union in '41, not long after the Germans had made their in-roads.
I doubt the US would have intervened, or indeed cut off the oil supplies (not at first...but Stalin probably could have persuaded FDR to threaten Japan with oil cuts if they didn't seek a peaceful end to the war, but if Japan got the Siberian reaches, their mineral problems are solved and their oil problems would soon be solved too (although that is applying hindsight in terms of undiscovered oil deposits).
It's something I might try out sometime in Hearts of Iron, but honestly I wouldn't know that if it failed it was because it was never really possible in the first place, or whether it was just because I suck at Hearts of Iron. :03::haha:

[Sailor Steve]

Now, you can pick apart Turtledoves knowledge of military equipment, but even he has to admit that supplying Pearl Harbour after invading it would have been a logistical nightmare and would have done little but pad the Pacific war out by a year maximum.
All excellent points. If the Japanese had taken Hawaii there may or may not have been sufficient supplies to feed them. Whether or not they had to ferry supplies for thousands of miles, the US submarine force would have made their lives miserable. Imagine even half of the 21 subs based at Pearl Harbor now operating out of San Francisco, with new boats coming into service every month. With a much shorter distance and travel time they could have operated in Hawaiian waters for great lengths of time, and the Japanese garrisons there would have had a very tough time of it.

[breadcatcher101]

I always thought it somewhat amusing that when Hitler heard of the attack at Pearl Harbor none of his staff could tell him where it was.

[nikimcbee]

the US submarine force would have made their lives miserable.


...if we had fuctioning torps:dead:.

[Jimbuna]

Thank you. Thank you. *looks for a 'taking a bow' gif but doesn't see one*

One thing I found interesting was that a British writer predicted the Pacific War as early as 1925. He got some of the details wrong, predicting an attack on Manila rather than Hawaii, but his foretelling of the actual campaign was quite accurate, probably because both Japanese and American strategists used the book as a guide.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hector_Charles_Bywater
http://www.lindseywilliams.org/LAL_Archives/Reporter_Predicted_Japanese_Attack.htm

And copies of the book are available.
http://www.amazon.com/Great-Pacific-War-American-Japanese-1931-1933/dp/1557095574/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1323311765&sr=1-1

Try this one Steve:

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=taking+a+bow+gif&hl=en&biw=1093&bih=538&gbv=2&tbm=isch&tbnid=7tqIF16tmoOj4M:&imgrefurl=http://wap.rajvideo.com/files/MixAnimations/Animation_Creatures/animation_free-faces/&docid=XLbedvhfEWVq-M&imgurl=http://wap.rajvideo.com/files/MixAnimations/Animation_Creatures/animation_free-faces/star_taking_a_bow_wap.lusloving.com.gif&w=350&h=350&ei=X3fgTt65K7PU4QSen6HEBg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=635&vpy=197&dur=770&hovh=225&hovw=225&tx=123&ty=151&sig=113028035889936294525&page=1&tbnh=159&tbnw=153&start=0&ndsp=10&ved=1t:429,r:8,s:0

A fascinating debate gents and one I'm really enjoying catching up on with my slice of toast and canned pop/soda :sunny:

[Sailor Steve]

Umm, your link took me to a site for dozens of smilies.

[frau kaleun]

Umm, your link took me to a site for dozens of smilies.

I suspect he was sending you to the big smilie in the middle, which is taking a bow... cuz you wanted to take one but couldn't find one to take. :D

[Sailor Steve]

I suspect he was sending you to the big smilie in the middle, which is taking a bow... cuz you wanted to take one but couldn't find one to take. :D
Oh crap! :damn:

I thought he was commenting on the book I linked to. I completely forgot about the "taking a bow" part! :oops:




[edit] Thanks, Jim!

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a325/SailorSteve/star_taking_a_bow_wap_lusloving_com.gif

[August]

All excellent points. If the Japanese had taken Hawaii there may or may not have been sufficient supplies to feed them.

Hawaii has a pretty extensive agricultural capability. Feeding them, especially in priority over POW's and civilians might not have been too difficult.

[Oberon]

Hawaii has a pretty extensive agricultural capability. Feeding them, especially in priority over POW's and civilians might not have been too difficult.

To begin with, yes, and the Japanese would have converted every field they could find into agriculture, and got everyone who was able into the fields. However ammunition would have become a problem over time, as would fuel...particularly if they'd hit the fuel dumps in a third wave which Nagumo probably would have launched because he would have had an invasion fleet to protect so he would have been loathe to turn back so soon after the second wave.

[Jimbuna]

Umm, your link took me to a site for dozens of smilies.

It takes me to this in the forefront :hmmm:

http://wap.rajvideo.com/files/MixAnimations/Animation_Creatures/animation_free-faces/star_taking_a_bow_wap.lusloving.com.gif

EDIT: Didn't turn to the next page :oops:

My personal favourite

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/3464/thgenie9hyoj8.gif

[nikimcbee]

I wonder how much effort it would have taken to turn that island into a fortress, since pretty much everything they need is already there. They could have just cut off Midway and Wake, just starve them off those islands.

The the time, were there any other military bases in the Hawaiian Islands, other than Oahu?

I was thinking about this yesterday. If the Japanese captured the island and the first thing they dis was offer the island's independence from the US for their cooperation. That would make occupying a wee bit easier, but that would happen because of bushido.

[Oberon]

I wonder how much effort it would have taken to turn that island into a fortress, since pretty much everything they need is already there. They could have just cut off Midway and Wake, just starve them off those islands.

The the time, were there any other military bases in the Hawaiian Islands, other than Oahu?

I was thinking about this yesterday. If the Japanese captured the island and the first thing they dis was offer the island's independence from the US for their cooperation. That would make occupying a wee bit easier, but that would happen because of bushido.

Do yourself a favour Nik, grab these two books:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_z5f9kOqiH04/SL35-xReH4I/AAAAAAAAABs/3vFkWfmfK7I/s320/days+of+infamy.jpg http://i43.tower.com/images/mm115251553/end-beginning-harry-turtledove-cd-cover-art.jpg

They're both fiction, but I think that they have a good idea of what would happen to an extent.

[nikimcbee]

Do yourself a favour Nik, grab these two books:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_z5f9kOqiH04/SL35-xReH4I/AAAAAAAAABs/3vFkWfmfK7I/s320/days+of+infamy.jpg http://i43.tower.com/images/mm115251553/end-beginning-harry-turtledove-cd-cover-art.jpg

They're both fiction, but I think that they have a good idea of what would happen to an extent.

I've heard of the author but I've never read any of his books.

[nikimcbee]

@ Oberon
Have you read them? Are they any good? I'm pretty picky when it comes to fiction.

[Jimbuna]

They are well worth reading :yep: