Question for Brits

[Rockstar]

In preparation for the War of 1812 festivities I plan to display two flags, one being the U.S. 15 star 15 bar flag. The other one British, however I'm not quite sure what British flag would be appropriate. In 1814 the British occupied and fortified the southern end of Tangier Island, VA. British troops there consisted of Navy and Marines. What flag woulld be the most appropriate to fly on this occasion?

The Union Jack, or

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/ae/Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg/300px-Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg.png

St. George's Ensign

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9c/Naval_Ensign_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg/300px-Naval_Ensign_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg.png

If you have any references I would appreciate it. We do get Brit tourists here from time to time so I want to be sure proper flag etiquette is observed.

[Gerald]

Although I am not English man, I'd say the first-mentioned.....based on my visit to the country.

[Dowly]

Go with the Union Flag. :yep:

[Herr-Berbunch]

Go with the Union Flag. :yep:


Union Flag :yep: (not Jack, and the second is the White Ensign).

[BossMark]

Yeah the union flag

[frau kaleun]

Wait a minute are we not supposed to call it the "Union Jack"? Or is that just a different flag entirely?

[Dowly]

Wait a minute are we not supposed to call it the "Union Jack"? Or is that just a different flag entirely?

AFAIK, you can call it either flag or jack. Flag just seems to be the more popular
one on this side of the pond. :hmmm:

Besides, "Union Jack" just sounds stupid. :88)

[joegrundman]

I believe at the time it was this one without the diagonal red cross of Northern Ireland

http://www.usflagdepot.com/store/media/britishunion.gif

as to flag or jack, the rum fellow wikipedia says

The Flag Institute, the vexillological organisation for the United Kingdom, stated that the term Union Flag is a "relatively recent idea". Jack was a word previously used to denote any flag.[4] It also noted that "From early in its life the Admiralty itself frequently referred to the flag as the Union Jack, whatever its use, and in 1902 an Admiralty Circular announced that Their Lordships had decided that either name could be used officially. In 1908 a government minister stated, in response to a Parliamentary question, that "the Union Jack should be regarded as the National flag" .[5] Nevertheless, the term "Union Flag" is used in King Charles's proclamation of 1634,[6] and in King George III's proclamation of 1 January 1801 concerning the arms and flag of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.[7] One theory is that the "Jack" part of the name may also have come from the name of King James I/James VI of Scotland.[8]

and i personally prefer to call it the union jack rather than union flag. it has more character

[Dowly]

I believe at the time it was this one without the diagonal red cross of Northern Ireland

According to wiki, the N.Ireland's cross was added in 1801, so think it should be
the one in the OP. :06:

[Garion]

It's the Union Jack when it is flying from the jack staff of an RN ship.

Cheers

Garion

[Oberon]

It's the Union Jack when it is flying from the jack staff of an RN ship.

Cheers

Garion

:yep: Is it sad that I learnt this fact from an episode of Doctor Who? :doh:

[August]

:yep: Is it sad that I learnt this fact from an episode of Doctor Who? :doh:


Yes it is! :O:

I learned it from a C.S. Forrester book.

[Tribesman]

I believe at the time it was this one without the diagonal red cross of Northern Ireland

Do you mean St Patricks saltire?
the red cross of ulster would be hidden under St Georges cross.

As for the topic...

It would have been the union flag in a marines fortification wouldn't it, unless it was the kings colour being flown.
Then again the coast campaign had ever switching of navy under army command and army under navy command so any flag could do.

[joegrundman]

According to wiki, the N.Ireland's cross was added in 1801, so think it should be
the one in the OP. :06:

ah so!

here is webpage named

United Kingdom: Flags from the war of 1812

http://flagspot.net/flags/gb%5Ew1812.html

some funny looking ones there

[joegrundman]

:yep: Is it sad that I learnt this fact from an episode of Doctor Who? :doh:

yes, but is it actually true?

[joegrundman]

Do you mean St Patricks saltire?
the red cross of ulster would be hidden under St Georges cross

uh, i don't know. the diagonal red cross is to do with Northern Ireland, isn't it?

as far as I'm concerned we can remove it again ;)

[Jimbuna]

I believe at the time it was this one without the diagonal red cross of Northern Ireland

http://www.usflagdepot.com/store/media/britishunion.gif

as to flag or jack, the rum fellow wikipedia says



and i personally prefer to call it the union jack rather than union flag. it has more character

Agreed :yep:

[Tribesman]

uh, i don't know. the diagonal red cross is to do with Northern Ireland, isn't it?

No.

as far as I'm concerned we can remove it again
Would that upset the unonists, make them happy or just make them get confused and start shouting NO:rotfl2:

[joegrundman]

No.


Would that upset the unonists, make them happy or just make them get confused and start shouting NO:rotfl2:
long since gave up caring

[Garion]

yes, but is it actually true?


Yup, well according to my two and a half ringer instructor at HMS Raleigh.

Mind yoo they do say that if yoo don't have a sense of humour yoo should'nae join :D

Cheers

Garion

[Oberon]

No.


Would that upset the unonists, make them happy or just make them get confused and start shouting NO:rotfl2:

http://static.guim.co.uk/Guardian/uk/gallery/2008/mar/05/politics.northernireland/GD1322135@ST-8037.jpg
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO

[frau kaleun]

and i personally prefer to call it the union jack rather than union flag. it has more character

That's what I think. :yep:

[Sailor Steve]

It's the Union Jack when it is flying from the jack staff of an RN ship.
Exactly so. It's the Union Flag unless it's being flown from a ship, and the Royal Navy today still uses the White Ensign for warships and the Red Ensign for merchants. The Blue Ensign isn't used anymore, as far as I know. Originally the three Ensigns represented three divisions of the sailing navy. Here's a nice rundown of the history of the Union Flag.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Flag

Here is the US Navy's Jack, now reinstated as the official jack. When in port US Navy ships also fly the national flag from the sternpost, with the jack flown at the bow.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Navy_Jack

[Jimbuna]

Exactly so. It's the Union Flag unless it's being flown from a ship, and the Royal Navy today still uses the White Ensign for warships and the Red Ensign for merchants. The Blue Ensign isn't used anymore, as far as I know. Originally the three Ensigns represented three divisions of the sailing navy. Here's a nice rundown of the history of the Union Flag.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Flag

Here is the US Navy's Jack, now reinstated as the official jack. When in port US Navy ships also fly the national flag from the sternpost, with the jack flown at the bow.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Navy_Jack

Precisely...on all counts :yep:

[Sailor Steve]

Man, I'm glad I got done re-editing that before you quoted it. I only went back and changed it three times! :D

[joegrundman]

Exactly so. It's the Union Flag unless it's being flown from a ship, and the Royal Navy today still uses the White Ensign for warships and the Red Ensign for merchants. The Blue Ensign isn't used anymore, as far as I know. Originally the three Ensigns represented three divisions of the sailing navy. Here's a nice rundown of the history of the Union Flag.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Flag


edit: maybe misunderstood.

what was the blue ensign for?

[Dowly]

It is often stated that the Union Flag should only be described as the Union
Jack when flown in the bows of a warship, but this is a relatively recent idea.
From early in its life the Admiralty itself frequently referred to the flag as the
Union Jack, whatever its use, and in 1902 an Admiralty Circular announced
that Their Lordships had decided that either name could be used officially.
Such use was given Parliamentary approval in 1908 when it was stated that
"the Union Jack should be regarded as the National flag".http://www.flaginstitute.org/index.php?location=7.2

There. :up:

[joegrundman]

good job, dowly:DL

[Tribesman]

what was the blue ensign for?
It is the R.F.A


http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/The-Fleet/Royal-Fleet-Auxiliary

[Jimbuna]

Man, I'm glad I got done re-editing that before you quoted it. I only went back and changed it three times! :D

LOL :03:

[TLAM Strike]

:yep: Is it sad that I learnt this fact from an episode of Doctor Who? :doh:
Well the show was meant to be an Educational Series at first. That is why the doctor's first companions were two School Teachers and his school age granddaughter.

:O:

[Rockstar]

So far from what I've read here the general consensus is the Union Flag would be the one to fly alongside the U.S. 15 stars and bars.

The reason I asked about the White Ensign is the occupying troops on Tangier consisted of Royal Navy and Marines. It is also my understanding (hat tip wikipedia) a shore based fortification built under their supervision would be considered a commissioned warship. So I thought the White Ensign may have been in contention for a spot too.

[Sailor Steve]

http://www.flaginstitute.org/index.php?location=7.2

There. :up:
Excellent explanation! I sit corrected. :sunny:

[Sailor Steve]

edit: maybe misunderstood.

what was the blue ensign for?

It is the R.F.A


http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/The-Fleet/Royal-Fleet-Auxiliary
I only meant to mention it in the original context.

Prior to 1864, red, white, and blue were the colours of the three squadrons of the Royal Navy, which were created as a result of the reorganisation of the navy in 1652 by Admiral Robert Blake. Each squadron flew one of the three ensigns. In addition to the Admiral of the Fleet (who was Admiral of the Red), each squadron had its own admirals, vice admirals and rear admirals, e.g. Lord Nelson was Vice Admiral of the White at time of death.
The red squadron tended to patrol the Caribbean and north Atlantic, the white the coasts of Britain, France and the Mediterranean, while the blue patrolled the south Atlantic, Pacific and Indian oceans.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_ensign

[Ducimus]

I'm gonna ask the one question nobody else has....

In preparation for the War of 1812 festivities ....


The Brit's celebrate the war of 1812? I had no idea. Hell, I suppose why not, they got to put the Presidential Mansion to the torch. The year 1812, i haven't seen mentioned by anyone in my day to day life unless they were talking about Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture.

[Oberon]

I'm gonna ask the one question nobody else has....




The Brit's celebrate the war of 1812? I had no idea. Hell, I suppose why not, they got to put the Presidential Mansion to the torch. The year 1812, i haven't seen mentioned by anyone in my day to day life unless they were talking about Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture.

Rockstar is over the other side of the pond mate, most Brits would be hard pushed to tell you about the 1812 overture :03: Well, unless it was on X Factor (and let us pray to all the pantheons that it never is).

[Jimbuna]

1812 Overture celebrating the Battle of Borodino....great stuff:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPYTF1WVqIY

[Kongo Otto]

1812 Overture celebrating the Battle of Borodino....great stuff:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPYTF1WVqIY

You should hear the version with the Choir, its.....epic!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYnCCWsfx3c

[Jimbuna]

Very good :sunny:

[Tribesman]

1812 Overture celebrating the Battle of Borodino....great stuff:

That episode has always left me stumped, what exactly were the reasons behind invading Russia?
It just seems there was no plan and no objectives.

[frau kaleun]

That episode has always left me stumped, what exactly were the reasons behind invading Russia?
It just seems there was no plan and no objectives.

http://catandgirl.com/archive/2007-05-25-cg0472napoleon.gif

[Kongo Otto]

That episode has always left me stumped, what exactly were the reasons behind invading Russia?
It just seems there was no plan and no objectives.

Just copied it from wikipedia:
The campaign began on 24 June 1812, when Napoleon's forces crossed the river Neman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neman_River). Napoleon aimed to compel Emperor of Russia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_of_Russia) Alexander I (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_I_of_Russia) to remain in the Continental Blockade (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_Blockade) of the United Kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom); an official aim was to remove the threat of a Russian invasion of Poland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Warsaw). Napoleon named the campaign a Second Polish War; the Russian government proclaimed a Patriotic War.

[Takeda Shingen]

Rockstar is over the other side of the pond mate, most Brits would be hard pushed to tell you about the 1812 overture :03: Well, unless it was on X Factor (and let us pray to all the pantheons that it never is).

Now, there is no way in hell that you could possibly claim that any nation of people are less cultured than those in the USA. As an American, I can tell you that my fellow countrymen are, statistically, the least cultured, worst read and most easily distracted people on Earth. Yes, you gave us Harry Potter, but we're the ones that actually sat down and read it. :haha:

[Torplexed]

That episode has always left me stumped, what exactly were the reasons behind invading Russia?
It just seems there was no plan and no objectives.

Napoleon had increasingly come to view Europe as his personal domain. There was insufficient room on the continent for two major empires. Napoleon may not have wanted war, but his arbitrary habit of subjecting every nation and person to his will, led to an inevitable conflict with Russia. The plan, as always was to march in, rout their armies, conquer the capital, subjugate the local aristocracy. Finding a Moscow mostly abandoned and then burned with no peace offering in the works was inconceivable to Napoleon. He couldn't figure it out. His dilemma was discouraging. As a field commander he needed to break free from the ruined city and reorganize his increasingly mutinous army. As Emperor, he dared not leave Moscow in any semblance of retreat.

[Tribesman]

Just copied it from wikipedia:

But it doesn't explain any plan or objective.

@Torplexed...wouldn't that require Petersburg?

[Torplexed]

But it doesn't explain any plan or objective.

@Torplexed...wouldn't that require Petersburg?

There was a corps of Polish, Bavarian, Westphalian and Prussian troops that advanced along the Baltic Coast towards St. Petersburg but was stopped by the poor terrain and larger formations to it's front. Being mostly made up of vassal nations it didn't fight as well as the French.

Napoleon's initial plan was based on the fact that the Russian army was split into two main elements - 128,000 men under Barclay in the north along the River Nieman (blocking the direct route to St Petersburg), and 48,000 men under Bagration further south along the River Bug in Poland. Faced with this, Napoleon led his Grande Armee of 250,000 men directly eastwards between the two forces along the line Vilna-Vitebsk, hoping to separate the two Russian armies and defeat them individually. Other French forces guarded his flanks - 150,000 plus 34,000 Austrians in the south, plus the aforementioned troops in the Baltic area - plus a reserve of 225,000 back in Poland.

However, instead of fighting Barclay retreated, forcing Napoleon to continue marching east in an attempt to prevent Barclay and Bagration linking up. The pace of the French advance slowed. In August Napoleon attempted to encircle the Russians at Smolensk, but they retreated once more. It was at that point he made the decision to advance to Moscow - because he believed the Russians would not allow the city to fall without a fight, and so he would get the decisive battle he wanted. Although Moscow wasn't the Russian capital anymore in 1812, it was still considered Russian' sacred heart. It would also make a better center of operations, being not as remote from the rest of Russia as St. Petersburg.

He did, but unfortunately for him, attrition had reduced his numbers so much by then that he was actually outnumbered at Borodino, and the battle was a bloody stalemate instead of an Austerlitz-like victory. In none of the voluminous letters Napoleon wrote on the eve of his invasion of Russia does he consider the possibility of the Russians refusing battle and always retiring to the east.