Bunch of small questions

[SilentPan]

Hi!

I've been reading a lot through the forums, and have found a ton of useful stuff. There are still some issues I haven't found an answer for yet, so I'd like to write 'em all up and see what I get. I plan to update this first post in order to collect all the answers I'm hoping to get.

Also, since it may make a difference, a list of the mods I'm using:
- SH4 with U-Boat Missions
- Trigger Maru
- Trigger Maru Update
- Targeting Optics Correction (for the updated TMO)

Here goes:

(a) When is it safe to ping another ship? I don't dare to use it at all, since a warship will probably always hear it and start to actively search for me, and merchants.. will hear it to, won't they? After all, I can hear it throughout the whole submarine..?

Apparently contacts DO hear the ping. However, it doesn't really tell them a lot. On the other hand, it doesn't need to, I guess? If a merchant just slightly changes his course or speed every 15 minutes as a panic reaction, it would already make him considerably harder to hit? But then again, ingame merchants don't seem to do that.

(b) Can other ships hear and locate me when I ping the ground in order to find out how much space I have left below my boat? Or is it practically always safe to do this, even while being chased by an escort and sneaking away in silent running?

They absolutely may hear it. New rule: Always check the terrain before the engagement!

(c) By default, all guns are mounted pointing at the stern of the boat. However, some mods (like TMO) enable the skipper to mount one pointing to the bow - was this in fact possible and being done back in the day? (Also, why not simply mount two on the deck while you're at it..?)

Apparently skippers had a choice here - and most real skippers didn't even want a single one of the things. Even so, it's completely plausible to even have two cannons on the boat.

(d) I have no experience with the radar, and want to start using it. However, I'd like to know first how its usage affects me being stealthy: Can I just keep the thing running all day and night, or do other ships pick up my radar broadcast and start looking for me? If so, do merchants also pick up the signal and do the exact opposite, i.e., run away from me?

It seems it can be used almost without any regrets. I'm still somewhat skeptical, however, especially when it comes to tracking whole convoys: Their escorts should absolutely be able to tell from what direction I emit my radar signal and thus be able to home in on me..?

(e) What is a smart and realistic way to deal with incoming aircraft? My current response is to change my course and go deep, so that even if I'm spotted, they won't be able to use the current course I'm on to track me. After reaching 160 feet, I drive on for an hour or so, surface and go back to my original course. Does this make sense? Is it too paranoid, or should I evade even more?

When going down the realism road, it's not paranoid at all. However, within the game, it seems to be enough to simply dodge out of harms way, with as little as 5 minutes being submerged, if at all. In my experience, however, I only get a short blip on my map, and can't track an aircraft all the way until it's gone. Also, I plan to play without any map contacts in the future, so I guess I stick to my routine for the time being - but maybe relax it somewhat.

(f) How exactly does the air radar help me? As far as I can see, it simply gives me an early warning, but doesn't track any aircraft, or keeps me up to date. It just warns *once* that an aircraft was spotted, and that's it. Am I missing something here, or is this essentially all the thing does?

Apparently that's really all it is: an early warning system. React according to your own protocol, but don't expect more than an initial hint from the air radar.

(g) How much time is normal to spend submerged? I'm talking about normal patrol behavior, with no contacts around - is there any reason not to be surfaced at all times? There's always ample warning time should detection become an issue (i.e., air radar, hydrophones, ..)? How did real submarines handle this?

A ton of useful and interesting stuff below. Ingame, it comes down to this: Stay on the surface as much as possible, since it's here where the sub can use all of it's sensors (especially the radar) and avoid any harmful contacts from the get go.
During the actual war, however, the protocol was: stay submerged as much as possible during the day, and on the surface during the night. Think I'll actually tray this at least once..

(h) That's probably a big question, but I'm only looking for a small answer: I'm mostly afraid of doing a surface attack, so I mostly sneak around contacts while being submerged. How near can I get, however, when trying to go for a surface attack? How does weather and time of day affect this? I'm sure this has already been answered, so a link to the appropriate topic is all I need.

There's just too much too it for a short version. Guess I just have to try out a few approaches and learn from experience.

(i) I faintly remember reading that I shouldn't touch some of the torpedo settings - mainly the speed setting. Has this been fixed by now, and it's okay to use the 'fast' setting for torpedoes (I always play with no duds)? Also, if there is a fast setting, is there any reason at all NOT to use it all the time..? (The only scenario I can think of, would be shooting everything I got into a convoy, and using the longer delay to hit to get a headstart for running away?)

-- No answer yet --

(j) Is there a comprehensible collection about the differences between the available U-Boats? The manual doesn't really say a lot. I'd mainly be interested in how much quieter newer boats are, and how much longer they are able to stay submerged - these kinds of things. Since this has already been answered as well, I guess, a useful link is all I ask. (Also, I refer to the boats ingame, not the real thing, i.e., if a Salmon is much quieter than a Porpoise, but it's not modeled in the game, than this doesn't help me much, even if it's *would* still be interesting.)

-- No answer yet --

(k) At what CO2 level do I have to start worrying? I guess I shouldn't wait for the bar to completely fill up, but when does it really become dangerous? Also, is there a graded response? I.e., does the crew perform worse and worse as the CO2 level rises, or do they all just immediately die at some point..?

-- No answer yet --

(l) What's the criteria to make destroyer's think I'm dead? With no engines running, and silent running triggered, there should be no noise at all? Sure, they can simply ping me, but at what point do they stop? In other words: is it possible to fake my sinking? (I guess not, but then: why not?)

Short version: probably not possible (at least with my steering skills) in the game.

(m) How does the boat change it's depth without using the appropriate rudder? I guess it's the compressed air - which, therefore, is a limited resource, only to be refilled at a harbor?

First: compressed air can be refilled at the surface, thanks to compressors the boat has on board. Second: The actual machinery being used also entails ballast tanks and pumps - which makes a lot of sense. Third: It's called "diving planes" and not "diving rudder" (false friend for germans, I guess, since we call it "Tiefenruder" which translated 1:1 means "depth-rudder".)

(n) Thermal layers: When diving deep enough, the diving officer (I guess) tells me we just passed the thermal layer. However, I'm usually still able to follow surface contacts with my hydrophones - does this make sense, I thought the idea was that sound doesn't penetrate the layer? Also, how safe does the layer make me really? When being chased by a destroyer and getting under the layer, am I basically home free and can simply make a sharp turn and race away..?

Short version: It doesn't make the boat become invisible, but - and that's the important thing - seriously messes with the precision with which the boat can be targeted from the surface.



Phew, that's it for now. I've been wondering about most of these things for quite a while now, but after all these years I finally want to finish a whole campaign, and I want to do it right this time around :ping:

[LordCucumber]

Pinging is never completely safe. Destroyers and such will hear you if you are nearby and even then sound carries a long ways in this simulation.

Mounting of the gun up front was optional with some boats. This changed as demands for the subs changed, I suppose. I also think there were a few French boats with double mounted deckguns (both front and stern) IIRC.

Radar broadcast will leave a traceable signal (as it is basically the same as a radio signal, with intervals). Rule of thumb is: if its coming out of your boat with a frequency, the enemy can hear it/pick up on it.

Aircraft depends on if you are running a mod or vanilla game. With TMO, get your boat submerged. Only if you really have to, I'd try the AA gun. Planes are deadly in that mod. In vanilla, they are more an average threat (not too concerning).

Airradar is indeed an early warning system. Submerge the boat the moment you get the message, when in TMO at least. In vanilla, at least you know you have incoming aircraft before you blast them out of the skies :-D

Real subs were submerged during the day, and on the surface at night mostly. Of course, you'd have to come up for air every few hours or so, to filter out that nasty CO2. The sim does an ok job simulating this. It's generally a good idea to use this tactic when close to enemy land (as aircraft may spot you) or in real busy warship areas.

Surface attacks are an art in their own right. Can't give you any advice, except not to do it when escorts (like destroyers) are closing on you. I have a few prime examples of this going right and going wrong in my Let's Play. I would not recommend them unless targetting a lone merchant for instance.

Apart from the rudder, the boat uses ballast tanks to submerge. Using the rudders whilst moving speeds things up slightly, but technically the 'simple' pumps can do all the work.

The thermal layer warps sound but doesn't eliminate it completely. You are never 100% safe when under the layer, but Destroyers will have a harder time finding you, especially with sonar pings. If you use silent running, it is hard to find you on sound alone. A good thing to know is a destroyer can only EITHER ping OR listen at any given time, so if it is listening, you can sneak away under the layer with some luck involved. Multiple Destroyers will, of course, exchange information whilst one pings and the other listens on the hydrophone, when looking for you.

Hope this helps, somewhat :-)

[vincentz]

c) The Narwhal class submarine had 2 6''/53 deckguns.
Usually a sub was constructed without deckgun, which was then fitted later.
a quick image search on google shows several bow mounted guns. The gun and ammo weighted quite a lot and 2 guns was therefore only for the submarine cruisers, where speed and stealth where not primary goals.
http://pwencycl.kgbudge.com/images/N/Narwhal_class.jpg

Submarines are usually not surface battleships as such, more of a stealthy hit and runner. So a deckgun could be used for sinking a "dead" ship, that was still floating, but not used for surface battles against the more armoured DDs. Therefore, and especially after the merchants got better armor and guns, 2 guns were a waste.

m) A submarine doesnt use rudders for diving :woot: It uses planes (hydroplanes or dive planes) and balast tanks. The air used to fill the balast tanks for creating positive boyancy were replenished by a compressor at the surface. Its notable that while air itself creates positive boyancy, then compressed air is actually heavy, therefore creating negative boyancy. A simple example is when scubadiving, where when at the end of the dive the lack of air in the tank makes the diver positive boyant and sometimes makes inexperienced divers pop to the surface. (this get even worse when their BCD has some air in it, and while struggling to get down will have the air stuck (the vent for BCD's are only efficient while the diver is in vertical position.)

n) On thermal layers (thermocline) from wiki :
Sonar operation is affected by variations in sound speed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_speed), particularly in the vertical plane. Sound travels more slowly in fresh water (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fresh_water) than in sea water (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_water), though the difference is small. The speed is determined by the water's bulk modulus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulk_modulus) and mass (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass) density (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Density). The bulk modulus is affected by temperature, dissolved impurities (usually salinity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salinity)), and pressure (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pressure). The density effect is small. The speed of sound (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_sound) (in feet per second) is approximately:
4388 + (11.25 × temperature (in °F)) + (0.0182 × depth (in feet)) + salinity (in parts-per-thousand ). This empirically (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empirical) derived approximation equation is reasonably accurate for normal temperatures, concentrations of salinity and the range of most ocean depths. Ocean temperature varies with depth, but at between 30 and 100 meters there is often a marked change, called the thermocline (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermocline), dividing the warmer surface water from the cold, still waters that make up the rest of the ocean. This can frustrate sonar, because a sound originating on one side of the thermocline tends to be bent, or refracted (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refraction), through the thermocline. The thermocline may be present in shallower coastal waters. However, wave action will often mix the water column and eliminate the thermocline. Water pressure (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pressure) also affects sound propagation: higher pressure increases the sound speed, which causes the sound waves to refract away from the area of higher sound speed.

[Dread Knot]

(g) How much time is normal to spend submerged? I'm talking about normal patrol behavior, with no contacts around - is there any reason not to be surfaced at all times? There's always ample warning time should detection become an issue (i.e., air radar, hydrophones, ..)? How did real submarines handle this?

-- No answer yet --



There really is no reason not to keep surfaced as much as possible. Historically, for the most part, US submarines operated on the surface for the majority of the time. Radar was a priceless advantage as it gave ample warning of any incoming aircraft and also gave US subs a big edge over their Japanese surface adversaries as they often didn't have it, giving the sub the choice of when, where and how to attack. A submarine operating submerged most of the time is slow and blind, so it's to your advantage to try and keep to the surface as much as possible, especially in an ocean as vast as the Pacific. Some of the mods make Japanese aircraft pretty deadly, but in the real struggle in the Pacific they were credited with sinking maybe two USN subs unassisted. Doctrine-wise and technologically, the Japanese were incapable of mustering the sort of aerial onslaught the Allies created for the U-Boats in the Atlantic.

[Sailor Steve]

WELCOME ABOARD! :sunny:

(c) By default, all guns are mounted pointing at the stern of the boat. However, some mods (like TMO) enable the skipper to mount one pointing to the bow - was this in fact possible and being done back in the day? (Also, why not simply mount two on the deck while you're at it..?)
Yes, later in the war captains could choose whether they wanted the gun mounted forward or aft. In 1945 seven boats were fitted with two guns and a fully functional fire control system.


(e) What is a smart and realistic way to deal with incoming aircraft? My current response is to change my course and go deep, so that even if I'm spotted, they won't be able to use the current course I'm on to track me. After reaching 160 feet, I drive on for an hour or so, surface and go back to my original course. Does this make sense? Is it too paranoid, or should I evade even more?
That is not paranoid at all. In a game you can't die, so slugging it out with flying machines is fun, but in real life they only had to put one 20mm hole or a few bomb fragments through your pressure hull to turn you into a rather poor excuse for a surface gunboat.

(f) How exactly does the air radar help me? As far as I can see, it simply gives me an early warning, but doesn't track any aircraft, or keeps me up to date. It just warns *once* that an aircraft was spotted, and that's it. Am I missing something here, or is this essentially all the thing does?
Air Warning and Surface Warning radar were for just that - warning you. Later surface radars were highly useful for tracking ships and convoys from a distance, especially in bad weather.

(g) How much time is normal to spend submerged? I'm talking about normal patrol behavior, with no contacts around - is there any reason not to be surfaced at all times? There's always ample warning time should detection become an issue (i.e., air radar, hydrophones, ..)? How did real submarines handle this?
Pre-radar it's a good idea to remain submerged during the day, listening for contacts, and surface at night to recharge the batteries and air. With radar it's much more effecient to remain surfaced at all times, diving only when the radar warns you of approaching aircraft.

(l) What's the criteria to make destroyer's think I'm dead? With no engines running, and silent running triggered, there should be no noise at all? Sure, they can simply ping me, but at what point do they stop? In other words: is it possible to fake my sinking? (I guess not, but then: why not?)
This is where reality rears its ugly head. In real life they couldn't stop the engines while submerged, as maintaining a perfect trim was impossible. The boat would either start to sink or rise. This is why we have the term "Silent Running". A speed of two knots or less was used, and all work in the boat stopped, including reloading torpedoes. Normally this made the boat very difficult, though not impossible, to hear. As for "faking" your sinking, various methods were tried, with various amounts of success. SH1 allowed you to launch debris from the torpedo tubes, which sometimes worked and sometimes didn't. SH4 doesn't allow anything like that. As to why not, you'd have to ask the development team, and they aren't around any more, so...

(m) How does the boat change it's depth without using the appropriate rudder? I guess it's the compressed air - which, therefore, is a limited resource, only to be refilled at a harbor?
Actually they had pumps on board which could force out some of the water without using compressed air, but they were usually noisier than running the engines at slow speed, so weren't worth much where stealth was concerned. On the other hand you didn't have to return to a harbor. Every sub had compressors, and it was easy to manufacture compressed air on board.

(n) Thermal layers: When diving deep enough, the diving officer (I guess) tells me we just passed the thermal layer. However, I'm usually still able to follow surface contacts with my hydrophones - does this make sense, I thought the idea was that sound doesn't penetrate the layer? Also, how safe does the layer make me really? When being chased by a destroyer and getting under the layer, am I basically home free and can simply make a sharp turn and race away..?
Thermal layer doesn't block sound, it redirects it. A visual example is the straw in a glass of water. You can see the straw, but it looks bent and in the wrong place. That's how thermal sound layers work. You can usually still hear the ship, but it is displaced. This doesn't bother much when tracking a surface ship, because passive sonar isn't that precise anyway. On the other hand it does play havock when precision is required, such as when a destroyer is trying to drop depth charges directly on your sub.

[LordCucumber]

m) A submarine doesnt use rudders for diving :woot: It uses planes (hydroplanes or dive planes) and balast tanks.

Technically, a dive plane is a horizontal version of a rudder IMHO. But yes, dive planes is what I meant there :wah: :damn:

[SilentPan]

Wow, thanks for all the infos! Just skimmed it, but will give it a good read (and update the main post) as soon as I get home :yep:

subsim's radio room just never fails to amaze me :up:

[Arlo]

An alphabet of questions and answers. This is the right place for it, regarding sub sims and the history, science and technology, related. :)

[Rockin Robbins]

Hi!

I've been reading a lot through the forums, and have found a ton of useful stuff. There are still some issues I haven't found an answer for yet...

Sure, I'll take a swing at some of the questions where I think I might have a twisted viewpoint.....

(a) When is it safe to ping another ship? I don't dare to use it at all, since a warship will probably always hear it and start to actively search for me, and merchants.. will hear it to, won't they? After all, I can hear it throughout the whole submarine..?

Okay, here's my answer. When YOU ping you know exactly when the ping was emitted. The return echo, with that information gives you the bearing and range of the target. But, assuming the target hears the ping, what does he know? Well, not much. He knows you're out there. If he already knows that he hasn't learned anything, has he? But you have. Think about it!(b) Can other ships hear and locate me when I ping the ground in order to find out how much space I have left below my boat? Or is it practically always safe to do this, even while being chased by an escort and sneaking away in silent running?Well, your pinging for depth should already be done before you are slinking away on silent running. Never attack without knowing the lay of the land. I wouldn't ping when silent running. But if you have to, it really doesn't matter if they hear you. You'd die if you didn't ping. You might die if you do. Life sucks sometimes.

(c) By default, all guns are mounted pointing at the stern of the boat. However, some mods (like TMO) enable the skipper to mount one pointing to the bow - was this in fact possible and being done back in the day? (Also, why not simply mount two on the deck while you're at it..?)In the war, questions to captains revealed that the vast majority of them would rather have had no gun at all. They considered it worse than useless because not only was it ineffective on the unsteady deck of a submarine and with no proper aiming or stabilization, its very presence was a temptation to engage in stupid, one-sided conflicts where the sub was the almost ensured loser.

Captains who had a preference overwhelmingly liked the stern position for the gun, as a submarine was not an offensive gunship. The only use they would have would be to keep an escort busy while the sub was being chased and they were trying to dive the boat, or perhaps if they couldn't dive the boat. In other words they viewed the gun as possibly giving them a slim chance to stay alive in an emergency situation. It was not an attack weapon.


(d) I have no experience with the radar, and want to start using it. However, I'd like to know first how its usage affects me being stealthy: Can I just keep the thing running all day and night, or do other ships pick up my radar broadcast and start looking for me? If so, do merchants also pick up the signal and do the exact opposite, i.e., run away from me?
Oh, look. It's another question.... I've never seen any merchant react to the use of radar. Warships are another matter. Real story. Recycled Captain Joe Enright was stalking this huge thing, the new Japanese carrier Shinano, which was being moved to safer waters late in the war. It and its escorts were good for 30 knots, so Joe didn't have much of a chance for getting a shot off, so he flipped on the darned radar and left it on. Figured it was his only choice to even get any kind of shot.

The Japanese intercepted the radar signal. That told them only one thing: there's a sub out there..........somewhere. The Japanese admiral aboard the Shinano used his superior intellect to think about this. "Okay, the Americans have submarine out there running radar. It would be stupid for them to do that, so what are they up to? There MUST be a whole wolfpack around me." So he instituted the zig pattern from hell, designed to make it very difficult to get a shooting solution on his boats. He also slowed down and sent his DDs patrolling all over the place to bag the many subs that surrounded him. One of the Shinano's engines also helped out and failed, leaving Shinano with a max of about 25 knots.

Then as Enright was watching the flotilla blow by him at fifteen knots and too great an AoB for him to even get a setup, the carrier zigged.....straight.....toward him. That gave Enright the perfect setup on a silver platter and he sunk the single largest target of the war, even after they grossly underestimated the tonnage of the huge carrier. Because of the mental pressure exerted on the enemy by leaving the radar on, they made decisions fatal to their carrier.

When your radar is on, the enemy knows just one piece of information: you are out there. However you know the exact disposition, position, course, speed, of every enemy vessel that can do you harm or that you can do harm to. You hold a straight flush and he has a pair of dueces. And you are considering folding? Leave the darned thing on and raise the bet!

(e) What is a smart and realistic way to deal with incoming aircraft? My current response is to change my course and go deep, so that even if I'm spotted, they won't be able to use the current course I'm on to track me. After reaching 160 feet, I drive on for an hour or so, surface and go back to my original course. Does this make sense? Is it too paranoid, or should I evade even more?
Well, here's my updated airplane avoidance procedure. First, stay out of the darned Slot, where I am right now. It's the only place I've ever been in TMO/RSRD where the planes literally swarm all over you and you're avoiding all day whether you've ever been spotted or not.:haha:

But here's the drill. First, your job is to stay on the surface for every second you possibly are able to and live. Patrolling is a numbers game, everything else being equal, where the number of square miles of ocean surface searched per day is exactly proportional to the number of contacts, engagements, enemy ships sunk and tonnage score. We submerge ONLY when our life depends on it. That will help you understand:

Patrol on the surface at 9 knots for highest range. When your radar detects a plane it appears on your nav map. You'll notice that it appears about 10 miles away. You've dropped out of TC and so you take your compass tool and plot a circle of 5 miles diameter around your sub. This is the zone in which you are in danger of being spotted. In TMO 2.2 there is a slim chance that you can be occasionally spotted slightly outside that circle, but if you are you see him change course and you have plenty of time to dive. After I draw the circle I generally go to 8x or 16x compression because it's easier to see what he's up to and still slow enough to hit the D button.

If he's seen you dive to 100'. Do not hit the throttle. Do not crash dive. You have plenty of time. Just hit the D key and click on 100' on the depth gauge. As you pass 40' hit the stopwatch. Five minutes later, go to periscope depth and run up your radar antenna. It will be all clear. Surface and resume 9 knots on the surface. You do not change speeds during this because it is too easy to do the crash dive and then forget you are drinking fuel like WC Fields on an epic binge. A real sub couldn't do that but it can put a major crimp in your patrol. That is what the Japanese are supposed to try to do.

If he doesn't change course watch to see if he will enter that 5 mile radius circle around you. If he won't don't submerge. Watch him to make sure he stays on course, but you're basically home free.

If he is going to enter the 5 mile circle, you want to dive to periscope depth before he crosses that line. If you are at 40' as he crosses the line you're fine. Raise the radar antenna and watch the guy. If he's not coming closer than half a mile from you just sit there and watch the show as he goes by. If he's coming right over me I go to 100', start the stop watch and stay five minutes as above. If not I just wait for him to exit the danger circle, surface, ramp up the TC to whatever I was using and continue my day.

If you haven't been spotted there is no reason to change course. There's no reason to stay down any longer than it takes him to get to a range where he can't see you. You have stuff to do. None of it is under water.:D

There's a laundry list of advantages to staying on the surface every second you can and I'm not going into all of them here. The conclusion of the list is that staying on the surface is not only going to bag you a lot more targets, it's safer to boot! Being submerged often just FEELS safe, while you're busily endangering your own life. Don't be that guy!

[SilentPan]

Now I had some time to dig into your answers, interesting stuff! :up: I updated my first post with all the stuff I learned, and hope to get the rest cleared as well. :ping:

WELCOME ABOARD!
Thanks Sailor Steve, glad to be on board! :salute:

Captains who had a preference overwhelmingly liked the stern position for the gun (..) It was not an attack weapon.

I can see what you're saying. However, when finding myself in calm seas with one of the smaller merchants right in front of me, who has no real means to defend himself .. it would be stupid not to just blast him with the deck gun? I always go for the deck gun IF the above parameters are given, since - in my opinion - a full blown torpedo attack would just be a waste of both time and one or more torpedoes?

I've never seen any merchant react to the use of radar. Warships are another matter.

So .. what I read is: track single ships, but not convois - as their escorts are not only able to tell that I'm here, but are also able to home in on the signal that my radar is emitting..?

(..) This is why we have the term "Silent Running"

Ah, very nice bit of information there, thanks! :yep:

[Daniel Prates]

Okay, here's my answer. When YOU ping you know exactly when the ping was emitted. The return echo, with that information gives you the bearing and range of the target. But, assuming the target hears the ping, what does he know? Well, not much. He knows you're out there. If he already knows that he hasn't learned anything, has he? But you have. Think about it!

It's a good point, and it goes for show that one of those rare situations where a pinging may be useful, is when you are attacking an escorted target, escorts already are fussing around to find you, and you want to limit your peeks via the scope to as less as possible. Using the scope for just a few seconds can give you a lot of information useful, but using the stadimeter takes a while. If you have just a few seconds to get a good bearing and eyeballed AOB, distance could be supplied by a ping.

[Sailor Steve]

I can see what you're saying. However, when finding myself in calm seas with one of the smaller merchants right in front of me, who has no real means to defend himself .. it would be stupid not to just blast him with the deck gun? I always go for the deck gun IF the above parameters are given, since - in my opinion - a full blown torpedo attack would just be a waste of both time and one or more torpedoes?
I use the deck gun sometimes, but I always turn and match the speed and direction of the target no matter where my gun is mounted. If you are travelling directly toward him you have the problem of constantly changing range. Matching his speed and course makes him much easier to hit.

[Armistead]

Having skimmed through it, I'll have to say I mostly agree with RR and his tactics.

Questions still in doubt, can the enemy pick up your radar..Very few warships, mostly larger had radar detection equipment and as RR said it only told them your around, they couldn't home in on your position. Mods like TMO may vary, but as I recall the maker of TMO stated no enemy can pick up on your radar as there is no radar detection for enemy ships. With TMO you will yourself get APR1 radar detection late war. I've questioned this myself, because often it appears the enemy has picked up on your radar as escorts come, but it seems more likely they simply have you on radar.

Few escorts have radar, if any in the game, but many larger warships do, moreso later war. When you see with your radar that escorts are coming fast your way with no visual, they're probably being routed due to other large capital ships with radar.

Ducimas said that the enemy can't pick up your depth seeking ping...not so sure, for sure I've seen them react to a line sonar ping.

[TorpX]

Ducimas said that the enemy can't pick up your depth seeking ping...not so sure, for sure I've seen them react to a line sonar ping.

I was wondering, if you are in a situation where there are several escorts pinging (wether they have detected you or not), if you ping once or twice how could they tell the difference. One escort alone could certainly detect you, maybe two, but if you had more, how would they notice an extra ping in the cacaphony? I don't know the answer here.

[CptChacal]

Hi, I'll try to add a few things to what has already been said:


(c) By default, all guns are mounted pointing at the stern of the boat. However, some mods (like TMO) enable the skipper to mount one pointing to the bow - was this in fact possible and being done back in the day? (Also, why not simply mount two on the deck while you're at it..?)

It doesn't really matter if the gun is front or aft, as you want to be shooting broadside anyway, making you more difficult to hit than if you were pointing towards it. It is much easier to manually train a gun in bearing than in elevation. If the enemy has a targeting director you are toast anyway.



(d) I have no experience with the radar, and want to start using it. However, I'd like to know first how its usage affects me being stealthy: Can I just keep the thing running all day and night, or do other ships pick up my radar broadcast and start looking for me? If so, do merchants also pick up the signal and do the exact opposite, i.e., run away from me?

If the enemy has directional surface radar like the one you have on your boat, and it is tuned to the same frquency as yours, it is probably easy to rotate the antenna until your interference is maximum, thus betraying your bearing. I don't know if this is modeled in the game.


(g) How much time is normal to spend submerged? I'm talking about normal patrol behavior, with no contacts around - is there any reason not to be surfaced at all times? There's always ample warning time should detection become an issue (i.e., air radar, hydrophones, ..)? How did real submarines handle this?

It entirely depends on where you are and on your need for stealth. The closer you are to enemy bases and cities, the greater your chances of being spotted by radar, planes, fishing junks equipped with radio or even ground observers. Even if you are spotted only once, the secret is lost and the enemy will reroute traffic away from the area. Late in the war, this was infuriating to subs hungry for a kill. I don't know if this is modeled in the game.


(i) I faintly remember reading that I shouldn't touch some of the torpedo settings - mainly the speed setting. Has this been fixed by now, and it's okay to use the 'fast' setting for torpedoes (I always play with no duds)? Also, if there is a fast setting, is there any reason at all NOT to use it all the time..? (The only scenario I can think of, would be shooting everything I got into a convoy, and using the longer delay to hit to get a headstart for running away?)

The general consensus is to leave them at high speed. Slow speed was for increasing range but nobody wants to take the chance. The more time it takes to reach the target, the more chance you have of something screwing up the solution, such as target zigging, torpedo broaching or prematurely exploding or someone spotting the torpedo wake. Also when the first torp blows up, all ships go into panic mode and start veering away from their original course.



(l) What's the criteria to make destroyer's think I'm dead? With no engines running, and silent running triggered, there should be no noise at all? Sure, they can simply ping me, but at what point do they stop? In other words: is it possible to fake my sinking? (I guess not, but then: why not?)

After the war, Japanese patrol reports showed that destroyers quite often abandoned pursuit on the sight of oil and debris on the surface, so it would have been easy to fool them ny faking that. But I don't think SH4 lets you do that. Barring that, DDs both in the Atlantic and the Pacific were incredibly patient. If a convoy had spare DDs, which happened more and more as the number of merchant ships dwindled, it could afford to leave them behind for days. It took a long time for them to admit that they had lost the sub.


(m) How does the boat change it's depth without using the appropriate rudder? I guess it's the compressed air - which, therefore, is a limited resource, only to be refilled at a harbor?

Compressed air can be used to control depth but usually it is used to keep neutral buoyancy, and then the diving planes are used for depth. It is pretty much the same for scuba divers, for the same reason: it is easy to overcompensate with compressed air and shoot to the surface or drop like a stone.

Compressed air is a very limited commodity when diving. It is easily replenished on the surface using the compressors. There is a 'limited air' difficulty setting in the game.

[SilentPan]

The general consensus is to leave them at high speed.

You mean "set to high speed", as the default is low speed..? (Just double checking, as I just want to make sure that the speed switch is not to switch to fail for every torpedo that uses the setting, as I think it was a long time for SH3.)