View Full Version : Halal and Kosher hit by Dutch ban
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15610142
Note: 6 November 2011 Last updated at 04:05 GMT
Tribesman
11-06-11, 05:35 AM
What is it with political parties that put the word "freedom" in their name?
There is certainly some political vegetarians, which exerts pressure.
It seems that in some European countries (Sweden, Norway, Switzerland, Iceland ...) ritual methods of slaughtering animals for food are banned.
Laws about animal welfare are made for everybody, whatever its religion.
If some people want eat particular food (or meat), they can import it : it's not prohibited.
About this next law in the Netherlands, what is the opinion of the WWF, which generally protect animals ?
Skybird
11-06-11, 06:15 AM
I once thouight that these ways of slaughtering are even less painful then conventional slaughtering, but I learned from several sources that my assessment and beliefs probbaly are wrong and that they mean even more suffering and pain for the animal.
That's why I am against both.
My respect for these two religions is small to non-existent already, and if they demand that the anmial you eat must be brought to death especially painfully, then this does not help to reverse my opinion on said religions.
A legal ban would be appropriate, not only because it is primitive and cruel, but due to animal protection laws, too.
http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/27/640x39285948155281.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/100/640x39285948155281.jpg/)
Jimbuna
11-06-11, 06:32 AM
What is it with political parties that put the word "freedom" in their name?
I've always felt that way about the 'Labour' party.
A legal ban would be appropriate, not only because it is primitive and cruel, but due to animal protection laws, too.
Problem is not the law, but its application.
In France, there are such laws about animal protection, for the same reasons. But there are too exemptions for Jews and Muslims ...
So law is not the same for everybody.
"Liberty, Equality, Fraternity" is the motto of the French Republic.
Equality ?
More Kebab,to the people.
Seems to me there should never be religious exceptions for anything.
Tribesman
11-06-11, 01:16 PM
Seems to me there should never be religious exceptions for anything.
Don't tell Santa, he will think you dug up Oliver again
Krauter
11-06-11, 02:47 PM
Why is it that anytime someone stops the Jewish community from doing something so that they can be equal to others is it always the road to the Holocaust?
/facepalm..
Why is it that anytime someone stops the Jewish community from doing something so that they can be equal to others is it always the road to the Holocaust?
/facepalm..
You have some serious issue with this issue....:ping:
Krauter
11-06-11, 03:16 PM
Care to explain?
All I'm saying is that anytime the "rights" of Jews are questioned, or that laws are made to make Jews equal to other citizens which go against Jewish laws it does not mean that the Government is trying to initiate a pogrom or start another Holocaust.
Did Hitler abuse the use of judiciary laws to put down the Jews? Yes.
Does that mean that a legal government (I say this because the Dutch do not have a totalitarian regime nor a dictatorship) presents laws that go against religion but are designed to improve equality among its citizens mean it is the beginning of a pogrom? I don't think so.
Care to explain?
.
Nothing to explain.
The Rabbi spoke what he had on his mind...
If some people had been honest with themselves why they support this law it might look a bit diffrent.
I'm sure there is more to this law making than animal welfare consensus.
Also it would be good idea for all Dutch to become vegetarian.
Anyway....if the law makes them feel better about their steaks then well...cool....
Krauter
11-06-11, 03:56 PM
Nothing to explain.
The Rabbi spoke what he had on his mind...
If some people had been honest with themselves why they support this law it might look a bit diffrent.
I'm sure there is more to this law making than animal welfare consensus.
Also it would be good idea for all Dutch to become vegetarian.
Anyway....if the law makes them feel better about their steaks then well...cool....
And I respect that he spoke what's on his mind. I'm just saying its not always a conspiracy theory to bring back the Holocaust.
What are you implying? That deep down we all secretly hate jews and every law the infringes on their religious laws is a subconscious attempt at creating a pogrom?
And I respect that he spoke what's on his mind. I'm just saying its not always a conspiracy theory to bring back the Holocaust.
What are you implying? That deep down we all secretly hate jews and every law the infringes on their religious laws is a subconscious attempt at creating a pogrom?
No i did not say that they hate Jews.
Jews are not the issue here...its more of a European "multiculturalism" issue....wrapped around animal welfare.
I respect those who's for or against this law, but have this in mind next time you eat in your local McDonald, Burger King or some other fastfood resturant
Some years ago, a documentary on danish tv, showed how those animal was treated or should I say mistreated.
Ohh by the way I'm for this law
And I use to eat at my local Burger king.(2-3 times/ year)
Markus
Catfish
11-06-11, 04:39 PM
And never wear leather boots :shucks:
Krauter
11-06-11, 04:43 PM
No i did not say that they hate Jews.
Jews are not the issue here...its more of a European "multiculturalism" issue....wrapped around animal welfare.
What are you saying?
If some people had been honest with themselves why they support this law it might look a bit diffrent.
Just come out and say your opinion otherwise I'm wasting my time trying to make sense of your points.
Jimbuna
11-06-11, 04:52 PM
Jews are not the issue here...its more of a European "multiculturalism" issue....wrapped around animal welfare.
That is my undersstanding also.
Skybird
11-06-11, 05:17 PM
I respect those who's for or against this law, but have this in mind next time you eat in your local McDonald, Burger King or some other fastfood resturant
Some years ago, a documentary on danish tv, showed how those animal was treated or should I say mistreated.
Indeed. I avoid meat from industrial mass production also, well, as best as I can when I buy some. I also do not eat pig, haven'T had beef since months, and have reduced my consumation of chicken even more, to maybe once a week.
Unfortunately chicken farms are a whole story in itself to tell - and a very miserable one. Possible that I will become more and more vegetarian all by itself over the coming years. Have already been that for almost ten years since my late teen-years, but that's long time ago.
Anyhow, the misery of industrial meat factories is no reason why halal and kosher slaughtering should be considered acceptable.
Indeed. I avoid meat from industrial mass production also, well, as best as I can when I buy some. I also do not eat pig, haven'T had beef since months, and have reduced my consumation of chicken even more, to maybe once a week.
Unfortunately chicken farms are a whole story in itself to tell - and a very miserable one. Possible that I will become more and more vegetarian all by itself over the coming years. Have already been that for almost ten years since my late teen-years, but that's long time ago.
Anyhow, the misery of industrial meat factories is no reason why halal and kosher slaughtering should be considered acceptable.
I do not eat pork-I don't like the taste and the smell.
I do like a welldone T-bone steak, but it's not without thinking on the cow and if it had have a good life and a painless and a nonstressed slaughter.
If they really is thinking animal wellfare, then they should ban Burger King, Mcdonalds and other fastfood resturant that use industrial mass production.
I love meat to much to denie it.
Markus
Well done?
If you'd going to do that to steak, save a cow's life and eat TVP or something. Heck, that goes for cooking it past medium rare or so.
antikristuseke
11-07-11, 09:46 AM
What is it with political parties that put the word "freedom" in their name?
It's sort of similar to countries which have democratic in their names, but none of them are.
HunterICX
11-07-11, 10:48 AM
It's sort of similar to countries which have democratic in their names, but none of them are.
Don't you mean all of them?
HunterICX
OK, I just checked out the "freedom party."
I was rather surprised, actually. I expected something entirely different that platform statements like: "Politics (Consent): Freedom Party takes the view that the initiation of coercive physical force has no place in relations between individuals, and that all relations between and among individuals - and between governments and those they govern - must be consensual."
And: "Metaphysics (Reality): Freedom Party International regards nothing as supernatural or magical. That which exists, exists physically and naturally. The universe exists independently of ones own mind and is not affected by what one merely thinks, prays, wishes, or hopes about the nature of reality."
Usually people in europe like to define "right wing" as having to do with persecution based on indelible traits (racism, etc), even when their other politics are in fact quite leftist (collectivism, strong, central government control, etc).
Assuming I didn't follow a link to the wrong "freedom party international," or their mission statement is in fact a lie, I'm not seeing a problem with them. Again, this is from reading their own web page, never heard of them before.
Regardless, there should be no religious exceptions to any laws, IMHO. If there is a humane way of slaughtering animals for food, leather, etc, then that is the way they should be killed, PERIOD. If that makes some people upset because it is contrary to the book(s) they think are magical, tough. My reaction would be that they should go start a theocracy someplace else.
Note that such laws are usually only in force for commercial entities. So farmers can still use whatever cruel method they wish for their own (not for sale) food. If this means such communities have to start farms, hunt, etc, to get meat, or even import meat from abroad, that's not really a hardship in the modern world (the latter in particular).
Ah, I see that the Dutch party is actually the "Party for Freedom" so there might be a difference. Though they are described as a liberal party by wiki.
(I'm immediately reminded of The Life of Brian, lol—"we HATE the judean people's front!")
Tribesman
11-07-11, 02:13 PM
Ah, I see that the Dutch party is actually the "Party for Freedom" so there might be a difference. Though they are described as a liberal party by wiki.
A word that changes as it crossses the atlantic. They broke from the Freedom and Deomcracy party which would be the conservative liberalism, the party for freedom has gone past the conservative background into simple right wing populism....or simpletons right wing populism.
Regardless, there should be no religious exceptions to any laws, IMHO. If there is a humane way of slaughtering animals for food, leather, etc, then that is the way they should be killed, PERIOD.
What about fish?
Note that such laws are usually only in force for commercial entities. So farmers can still use whatever cruel method they wish for their own (not for sale) food.
No, if you are farming as a commercial enterprise you still run in to all sorts of regulations when it comes to slaughtering for your own consumption.
In the US, there would be a difference if commerce is involved. No one is looking over a hunter's shoulder to make sure the animal didn't run off and die slowly in the bush.
It may be different in europe, I have no idea. It would seem reasonable that there would be different standards for animals farmed for sale vs personal use, though.
I dunno if there are rules for fish. In the US there are rules regarding sizes, sexes, etc for fishing, but it's not about cruelty, just trying to preserve fisheries.
Fish and birds are pretty stupid, though, so I'd imagine they are treated a little differently than mammals. Still, my point stands that if there is a method agreed with by society as "humane," all people should have to follow the humane rules, regardless of what a book they claim to be magical says.
Skybird
11-07-11, 08:34 PM
and birds are pretty stupid, though,
Wrong. In the recent years biology had to almost rewrite major parts of what was considered to be safe knowledge about birds' intelligence. Even our understanding of their brainstructure had to be corrected, and not slightly only.
Since we do not read fishes' minds, I do not rukle out that we woukld be surprised of some fishes intelligence as well, like we get surprised by psychological and social characteristics of for example sharks time and again, features that just 20 years ago we would not even have dared to imagine.
In the top group of the most intelligent animals, you will find not just one but several bird species, leading from self-recognition, over social cooperation in complex tasks, to use of tools.
And I have seen sufficient film material on TV now to believe that these birds also have humour, enjoy playing for the sake of it, can be treacherous and sly, betraying each other, forming altruistic concepts of social cooperation, and can form quite close social relation amongst each other and towards humans, both in good and worse. But parrot owners I probably don't tell something new.
But it is not just about parott and raven species.
---
Germany has laws regulating fishing/hunting seasons, but also aiming at certain standards in animal treatment and killing procedures, aiming to prevent certain cruelty and pain.
I hate trophy hunters, however I am willing to accept local traditions of hunting for own food supply, but then it still is not a party, imo. Killing, hurting or making to suffer living creatures never should be done for sports, joy, excitement, or trophy-gathering. The more aware the life is that you take, the easier you should consider not to take it. But if you like hunting to kill for the sake of it, duel yourself with other humans, please. Ethically, sometimes even an animal can be more worth than a human.
If they are not smart enough to prevent us raising them as food, I don't particularly care how smart they are. They picked a bad place to be on the food chain. Tough luck for them.
I'm fine with mandating a humane way to bump them off, but I won't stop eating any of them.
But you've a choice and choose.
Tribesman
11-08-11, 02:32 AM
Still, my point stands that if there is a method agreed with by society as "humane," all people should have to follow the humane rules, regardless of what a book they claim to be magical says.
Yet there is no real agreement so there was no real point.
Fish and birds are pretty stupid, though
Tell that to the animal rights people, after all this bill is being dressed up as being all about the animals isn't it.
To be honest it's not something I ever looked into.
It seems like the appropriate way to slaughter animals would have been regulated long ago. <shrug>
I'd not be against regulations here in the US that set standards for commercial slaughter, and I'd not care if it interfered with rules set forth in a supposedly magical book. Regardless, any such rules should have no religious exceptions—no laws should have religious exceptions IMHO.
vBulletin® v3.8.11, Copyright ©2000-2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.