New Gaza "flotilla" underway

[Skybird]

German media report that two ships with activists have left a Turkish harbour in a new attempt to breach the blockade of Gaza. the plan was kept secret to prevent early reaction by Israel. The Israeli navy nevertheless has voved to not allow the blockade runner breaching the blockade.

Meanwhile Turkey's neo-ottoman emperor Erdoghan I. visits Germany once again within a short time (on the same day the ships leave harbour, what a coincidence, can you believe it) and has made himself many new friends with his ramblings. Just in September he again voiced threats that he will give any blockade runner military protection by Turkish warships, which he also wants to sent to Cyprus in case EU-member Cyprus dares to explore ressources in the maritime areas around Cyprus. Erdoghan has said that he will also freeze all diplomatic relations with the EU in the coming year when Cyprus according to the normal time table will take over the presidency in the EU.

I think the EU should just slam the door in his face once and forever.

And Erdoghan I. has the nerve to demand just today once again that Germany should support Turkey's bit for EU membership and drop of visa-duty, while threatening military force against Israel and a sovereign EU-memberstate as well as diplomatic sanctions against the whole EU, and being extremely supportive to Palestinian terror organisations.

Berside that he again demanded that Turks in Germany shall be given special status before the law by allowiun g the double citizenship, he called intrgration "assimilation" and said de,manding this integration is a crime against humanity, and he again deamnded thatm Turks in Germany should learn Turkish before they learn German. He also said that the way German authorities have stzarted to raise demands to Turks for adapting and integration and learning the German language comoares to anti-semitism, indicating he meant to link it to the same attitude that led to the holocaust.

By international law regulating naval blockades Israel not only is right to maintain the blockade, but also has the legal obligation to enforce it, with just one exception allowed it's legality would collapse completely - so is the legal situation.

I hope that more Europeans finally, finally start to realise whom they are dealing with when they are oh so sympathetic for Turkish EU-membership. Good will is all nice and well, but if exaggerated and leading to ignorrance of reality, it turns into naivety and even blatant idiocy.

In fact, Turkey should be kicked out of NATO.

He

[CaptainMattJ.]

well, as the old saying goes "it is better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool, than to open it and remove all doubt"

But as for his demands for turks in germany, it sounds alot like the illegal immigration problem in the states. the people here dont want to learn english half of the time, and are pushing for completely uncalled for and outrageous citizenship demands and for more and more spanish subtitles and translations so they dont have to learn english while living here. and if we have the "audacity" to tell them no, and to try and deport them as any other country would to an illegal immigrant, they cry racism and demand rights.

[1480]

well, as the old saying goes "it is better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool, than to open it and remove all doubt"

But as for his demands for turks in germany, it sounds alot like the illegal immigration problem in the states. the people here dont want to learn english half of the time, and are pushing for completely uncalled for and outrageous citizenship demands and for more and more spanish subtitles and translations so they dont have to learn english while living here. and if we have the "audacity" to tell them no, and to try and deport them as any other country would to an illegal immigrant, they cry racism and demand rights.

:yep:

As for the flotilla, I wish they would blow it right out of the water. Hope Ayers and Dohrn on the boats this time....

[Buddahaid]

well, as the old saying goes "it is better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool, than to open it and remove all doubt"

But as for his demands for turks in germany, it sounds alot like the illegal immigration problem in the states. the people here dont want to learn english half of the time, and are pushing for completely uncalled for and outrageous citizenship demands and for more and more spanish subtitles and translations so they dont have to learn english while living here. and if we have the "audacity" to tell them no, and to try and deport them as any other country would to an illegal immigrant, they cry racism and demand rights.

Well I live in California which just so happens to have been part of Mexico for a good while and many people speak Spanish because it was the national language then. Get over it as it's here to stay. You might as well demand that Europeans all start speaking Esperanto.

[JU_88]

I think the EU should just slam the door in his face once and forever.


You mean the same EU that is currenly crumbling like a stale cake?
I would not be surprised if Turkey have changed their minds on that one by now.

[Skybird]

You mean the same EU that is currenly crumbling like a stale cake?
I would not be surprised if Turkey have changed their minds on that one by now.
Yes, that same EU I mean. So far the EU has not even reacted to Turkey's threats against EU-member Cyprus. It also has not reacted to Turkey's threat to freeze all relations to the EU during the Cypriotic presidency.

This spineless, prideless display makes me think of the EU as dog's vomit. Or greasy slime making big big superbig bubbles.

[Tribesman]

Yes, that same EU I mean. So far the EU has not even reacted to Turkey's threats against EU-member Cyprus. It also has not reacted to Turkey's threat to freeze all relations to the EU during the Cypriotic presidency.

Wow stop the clocks the EU didn't release a strongly worded statement

Pretty much their same reaction when the Cypriot President said he was going to throw out the EU member occupying part of his island.

This spineless, prideless display makes me think of the EU as dog's vomit.
Yeah the EU should errrrrr...make a threat of some meaningless gesture :doh:

[Jimbuna]

I'll start getting concerned if the Turks send warships to accompany and protect said flotilla.

I certainly don't doubt the resolve of the Israelies to enforce the blockade.

[JU_88]

I'll start getting concerned if the Turks send warships to accompany and protect said flotilla.

I certainly don't doubt the resolve of the Israelies to enforce the blockade.

I somehow doubt Turkey wants to start a war with Isreal.

[Jimbuna]

I somehow doubt Turkey wants to start a war with Isreal.

Well that is what they may well provoke if they send warships to accompany the flotilla.

How else could they defend it?

[Dowly]

Israel should contact the ship(s) and tell them to piss off. If they ignore, board
the ship(s), but before doing so, contact the ship(s) again and let them know
that if there is any violent resistance, they will be shot.

Or alternatively, they could just ask if they REALLY want to run the blockade,
if the answer is yes = blow the ships up.

Balls to playing nice with these idiots. :nope:

[Jimbuna]

Israel should contact the ship(s) and tell them to piss off. If they ignore, board
the ship(s), but before doing so, contact the ship(s) again and let them know
that if there is any violent resistance, they will be shot.

Or alternatively, they could just ask if they REALLY want to run the blockade,
if the answer is yes = blow the ships up.

Balls to playing nice with these idiots. :nope:

Could you try to make your views more clear....expand on them a little so others may understand your viewpoint please? :DL

[Dowly]

Could you try to make your views more clear....expand on them a little so others may understand your viewpoint please? :DL

Oh shut up, silly. :O:

[Jimbuna]

Oh shut up, silly. :O:

Something along the lines of "SINK EM ALL" perhaps :DL

http://imgcash6.imageshack.us/img232/3115/fixedma2.gif

[Dowly]

Something along the lines of "SINK EM ALL" perhaps :DL

http://imgcash6.imageshack.us/img232/3115/fixedma2.gif

That could work. :hmmm:

But it is rather restrictive isn't it. Hence, I propose "Be more aggressive!".
Gives the IDF more freedom to choose which way they want to get rid of the pesky activists.
I mean, just sinking the ships would get boring after a while I imagine. :hmmm:

[_dgn_]

... learning the German language comoares to anti-semitism, indicating he meant to link it to the same attitude that led to the holocaust.


It's disconcerting when some words are replaced by other ones in this sentence.

Try by substituting "German" by "Arab", "anti-semitism" by "anti-christianism", "holocaust" by "Great Crime" (Armenian Genocide) ...

[Kongo Otto]

In Hundred years when Islam has overrun Europe, the few Christian surviors will call people like Anders Behring Breivik a visionary resistance fighter!!

The EU States and but principally Germany should stop their appeasement politics right now!
Appeasement hasnt worked 1938 and it doesnt work with Islam!

Here in Augsburg were i live we have 41.4% Muslim Immigrants mostly of the lowest educational levels if there is any education at all and if you see the City authorities crawling in front of them and praising them it makes you want to vomit!!
But if you say or do something against them, some leftist german "we lost the war therefore we have to love and hug the whole world" aka Green Party Activists calls you a racist and tells you you have to understand them!!
Oh really have i?

You dont like it as we handle it, well feel free to leave, there are beautiful countries were you can live your islamic traditions of sharia laws, stoning etc. like Saudia Arabia, Afghanistan, Lybia or Turkey.
Ah yes well they dont have such juicy social security benefits like germany.

[Tribesman]

In Hundred years when Islam has overrun Europe, the few Christian surviors will call people like Anders Behring Breivik a visionary resistance fighter!!

Best make the most of calling him a sick crazy murdering bastard with a warped mind and a nazi ideology while we still can then.
The very same can be said for those who think he was right if you omit the word "murdering".

What is it with this forumn recently? holocaust deniers and neo nazis seem to be becoming more frequent, has there been a closedown on Stormfront?

[Kongo Otto]

Best make the most of calling him a sick crazy murdering bastard with a warped mind and a nazi ideology while we still can then.
The very same can be said for those who think he was right if you omit the word "murdering".

What is it with this forumn recently? holocaust deniers and neo nazis seem to be becoming more frequent, has there been a closedown on Stormfront?

Maybe i should have marked that statement with *zynism on* and *zynism off* as you clerly didnt got it.
And btw were was the holocaust deniying in my previuos post? So stop putting words in my mouth will you?

[JU_88]

In Hundred years when Islam has overrun Europe.....


:rotfl2:

[Jimbuna]

That could work. :hmmm:

But it is rather restrictive isn't it. Hence, I propose "Be more aggressive!".
Gives the IDF more freedom to choose which way they want to get rid of the pesky activists.
I mean, just sinking the ships would get boring after a while I imagine. :hmmm:

I think the fear/reality of the situation will become a fact.

[Jimbuna]

That could work. :hmmm:

But it is rather restrictive isn't it. Hence, I propose "Be more aggressive!".
Gives the IDF more freedom to choose which way they want to get rid of the pesky activists.
I mean, just sinking the ships would get boring after a while I imagine. :hmmm:

That might depend on whether it was a sinle mission or a multiplayer :DL

[1480]

:rotfl2:

A quick but interesting read:

Why they hate. By GABRIEL

[Kongo Otto]

A quick but interesting read:

Why they hate. By GABRIEL

Do you maybe mean: Because they hate by Brigitte Gabriel?

I would higly recommend: A God who hates by Wafa Sultan and
Infidel by Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

[1480]

Do you maybe mean: Because they hate by Brigitte Gabriel?

I would higly recommend: A God who hates by Wafa Sultan and
Infidel by Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

Danke, It's upstairs and I was lazy...

[Gorduz]

Excuse me for being ignorant, but why do Israel has the right to blockade gaza? I thought that only was allowed during wars between states...

[Skybird]

Excuse me for being ignorant, but why do Israel has the right to blockade gaza? I thought that only was allowed during wars between states...
Legal conditions for establishing a blockade are regulated by some international law (in this case the law of blockade, formulated in the Declaration of London in I think 1919 or earlier), certain conditions need to be fulfilled. And the legality of the Israeli blockade has been confirmed even by the highly suspicious UN itself.

A blockade must be formally announced by a state and made known to all parties and neutrals possibly being effected by it (for example when trying to reach a harbour). It must be directed against an enemy that is in a state of war with the state establishing the blockade. Hamas confirms time and again that is sees itself at war with Israel, and it is the governing force in control of Hamaz. By that claim of theirs, Hamas helps to legalise the blockade by Israel! :D

Blockade runners can be legally stopped even before they enter the blockade zone. The blockade zone can reach out 12 miles from the coast, but a ship wanting to break up the blockade can be stopped even in the range of 12-24 miles, the 12 before the real blockade zone.

The use of that ammount of force needed to stop and board ships to bring them under control when running against a blockade, is legal. That means both self-defence as well as that aggressive force needed to secure control of the ship.

A blockade must be maintained against ALL attempts to breach it, making one single exception, or being unable to prevent just one single breaching, nullifies the formal legality of the whole blockade alltogether. That is what makes it an all-or-nothing-at-all game for Israel. They CAN NOT allow exceptions.

[Tribesman]

And the legality of the Israeli blockade has been confirmed even by the highly suspicious UN itself.
Terms and conditions apply. A small fact that skybird as usual ignores.

Excuse me for being ignorant, but why do Israel has the right to blockade gaza? I thought that only was allowed during wars between states...
Like the report said, Gaza has to be treated as a war between states but not be treated as a war between states as if it isn't a war between states then the legality of the blockade goes out the window and if it is a war between states then Israel is buggered on lots of other legal grounds.
It should also be noted that if in the singular example Gaza is recognised as a State to legalise the blockade it only legalises the blockade on arms which is why the naval blockade must be seperated from the land blockade as looking at the two together would make the naval blockade illegal as they ban stuff via the naval blockade that they are not allowed to do.

For an example of some Sky spin on it take....
A blockade must be maintained against ALL attempts to breach it, making one single exception, or being unable to prevent just one single breaching, nullifies the formal legality of the whole blockade alltogether.
That could be true at a stretch if the vessel was breaching the blockade carrying material that was legally banned under the naval blockade.
So if a ship was illegally carrying weapons to Gaza it might bring in questions about enforcement and effectiveness, but succesful blockade runners have existed since blockades began and getting one through doesn't magicly make a blockade illegal.

[MH]

Yes...international law is pile of crap specially at hands of people whose head is full of the same substance.

[Jimbuna]

A blockade must be maintained against ALL attempts to breach it, making one single exception, or being unable to prevent just one single breaching, nullifies the formal legality of the whole blockade alltogether. That is what makes it an all-or-nothing-at-all game for Israel. They CAN NOT allow exceptions.

I don't think that is actually the case Sky....there have been many instances in history where a blockade has been breached by single ships (usually) but the 'Blockade' continues to be in effect.

[Tribesman]

Yes...international law is pile of crap specially at hands of people whose head is full of the same substance.

That is why you always pipe up to support that rather terrible spokeman when he claims to be following international law, just before the legal details make his statement fall apart at which point you complain about laws you just said were OK:yeah:

[Kongo Otto]

I don't think that is actually the case Sky....there have been many instances in history where a blockade has been breached by single ships (usually) but the 'Blockade' continues to be in effect.


If Hamas, which is undoubtedly a Iranian financed terrorist organisation which rules the gaza Strip since 2007, wouldnt be there, there wouldnt be anykind of Blockade at all.
It's as simple as that.

[Skybird]

I don't think that is actually the case Sky....there have been many instances in history where a blockade has been breached by single ships (usually) but the 'Blockade' continues to be in effect.
Yes, you can continue a blockade, of course. But you loose the legal status of it being recognised as a "legal" blockade by treaties and/or laws.

It is a juristic formality.

I tried to find an article I read about this during the time of the first Gaza flotilla that escalated so entertainingly, but I haven't found it. There, a university professor for international law explained this and other details of how "blockades" are regulated by international treaties and laws, and very extensively he did. The "one-exception-nullifies-whole-blockade" rule either is an explicit formulation, or a implication, and I never have read or heared it being disupted by law experts.

I am certain that I repeated the key points and also the detail you mention correctly, and while checking that again, I only found this mistake: I said the declaration of London was 1919, but in fact it was 10 years earlier, in 1909.

However, Google is everybody's friend.

What it comes down to, is this: if Israel fails a single ship to stop from breaking the blockade, then it would continue the blokckade, no doubt. But there would be an international uproar since from then on it can no longer claim that its blockade is legal and covered by international law. Go figure what that would mean in the media echo, and for the criticism fired by pro Gaza-lobbies. Once again, Israel woulkd be the bad bad bully of the bloick. Said lobbies, and Turkey, already claim - wrongly - that it is an illegal blockade right now. But then - they would be right, and political Western actors would need to distance themselves even more from Israel.

This is the reason why Turkey is pressing so strongly for breaking the blockade, Turkish ships and warship escort and such. It would be a propaganda coup with long-reaching legal consequences if even just one boat reaches the beach, and it would mount a lot of diplomatic pressure on Israel. If Israel would give up and lift the blockade, Erdoghan I. then could come and present himself as victor and collect the sentiments and build on that for acchieveing Turkish dominance in the region. He does not like that during the Arab spring revolts the Turkish flag was not the banner under which the revolting crowds assembled.

[Jimbuna]

There may well be something in what you say....I found this: "In order to be binding a blockade must be effective".

http://definitions.uslegal.com/b/blockade/

And this: "Blockades were first defined in international law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_law) at the Paris Declaration Respecting Maritime Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Declaration_Respecting_Maritime_Law) in 1856. One of the agreed rules was that a blockade had to be effective in order to be lawful. This banned so-called "paper" blockades — blockades that were declared to the blockaded nation, but were not actively enforced"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade

The quote above actually goes some way into explaining why 'paper blockade'.

[Osmium Steele]

Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

One of my personal heroes. The lady is an embodiment of courage and grace.

[Skybird]

Israeli navy has stopped both ships and tows them to Ashdod.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-15591860

[MH]

That is why you always pipe up to support that rather terrible spokeman when he claims to be following international law, just before the legal details make his statement fall apart at which point you complain about laws you just said were OK:yeah:

You take yourself too seriously....any way thanks mother.

Push the button //get bacon:haha:

[Jimbuna]

The US had urged the activists not to try to break the blockade. US officials also said Turkey had given assurances it would not send warships to escort the flotilla.


VBery sensible IMO :yep:

[Kongo Otto]

One of my personal heroes. The lady is an embodiment of courage and grace.

Yes that she is! Have you did read her book? If not you should do so, its an real eyeopener. I highly recommend her book to anyone who has the slightetst interest on the topic.

[Tribesman]

One of my personal heroes. The lady is an embodiment of courage and grace.
Isn't that the woman who embarrased her supporters when it turned out she had simply been making up stories.

Yes, you can continue a blockade, of course. But you loose the legal status of it being recognised as a "legal" blockade by treaties and/or laws.
Bull.

I tried to find an article I read about this during the time of the first Gaza flotilla that escalated so entertainingly, but I haven't found it. There, a university professor for international law explained this and other details of how "blockades" are regulated by international treaties and laws, and very extensively he did. The "one-exception-nullifies-whole-blockade" rule either is an explicit formulation, or a implication, and I never have read or heared it being disupted by law experts.

The basis for the bull, an article by someone he read a while ago but doesn't know where or who and hasn't read anything else about an article you cannot identify:doh:.
The basis for the arguement is in the relevant treaties not an article you can't find, likewise on the other bull, the UN report must be taken with all terms and conditions it contains not just by taking the word "legal" and then going on a wide ranging assertion of "fact" because of one word in a large document.

There may well be something in what you say....I found this: "In order to be binding a blockade must be effective".

Having a blockade breached by a vessel does not make the blockade illegal.
That was the claim that Sky made.
Having a blockade breached by vessels not containing any of the declared contraband would certainly have no impact on the effectiveness of the blockade.
One question does arise though, if the vessels only contain materials which are illegal to blockade does that raise more questions about the legality of the blockade.
BTW Jim you have to go beyond Paris, include Hague and Geneva too and then use San Remo.

[MH]

So is it legal or not?

[Jimbuna]

BTW Jim you have to go beyond Paris, include Hague and Geneva too and then use San Remo.

Yes...I appreciate where your coming from and I also believe the interpretation (well mine anyway) of the rules around blockade boil down to basically....as long as you can show you are seriously enforcing said blockade with sufficient numbers/equipment/ships or whatever and one or two breach it, the blockade is still a blockade and therefore legal.

The spirit or intent of the law IMHO was meant to stop those who set up a blockade in name only from doing so without the means to enforce it.

If that were not the case Gaddafi for example could have declared a blockade on the UK even though NATO had destroyed his navy earlier.

Bad analogy perhaps but I know what I meant :03:

[MH]

International Law and the Fighting in Gaza
Justus Reid Weiner and Avi Bell

To read entire briefing paper, click here. (http://www.globallawforum.org/UserFiles/puzzle1.pdf)


Palestinian Violations of International Law in Gaza Compared with Israel’s Exemplary Conduct



The rule of distinction requires combatants to aim all their attacks at legitimate targets. Attacks deliberately aimed at civilians are war crimes. A corollary of the rule of distinction is a ban on the use of weapons that are incapable of being properly aimed. The rockets used by the Palestinian attackers cannot be aimed at specific targets and are launched at urban areas. This means that the very use of these weapons violates international law.


Each one of the 6,000 rocket and mortar attacks by Palestinian terrorists on civilian targets in Israeli towns is a war crime. Both the terror squads carrying out the attacks, as well as their commanders, bear criminal responsibility. Under the rules of command responsibility, senior Hamas leaders such as Khaled Mashal, who ordered a continuation of the rocket attacks, are among the parties guilty of war crimes.



A consortium of Palestinian terrorist groups have held Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit incommunicado and out of reach of the International Committee of the Red Cross since 2006. This is a clear violation of international law concerning prisoners of war.


The Palestinian attacks must be seen as terrorist attacks under the International Convention for the Suppression of Terrorist Bombings, which makes it a crime to bomb public places (such as city streets) with the intent to kill civilians. Under this Convention, the Palestinian attackers are considered international terrorists and Israel is required to assume criminal jurisdiction over them.



UN Security Council Resolution 1566 requires states to deny safe haven to “any person who supports, facilitates, participates or attempts to participate in the financing, planning, preparation or commission of terrorist acts or provides safe havens.” Thus, all Palestinian governing authorities in Gaza, whether directly involved in terror attacks or not, are terrorists under international law, by virtue of their willing provision of safe haven for terrorists.


In carrying out their attacks on Israeli Jews as part of a larger aim to kill Jews, as demonstrated by the Hamas Covenant, many of the Palestinian terrorists are also violating the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide.



Palestinian terrorists in Gaza continue to launch rocket and mortar attacks on Israeli civilians and, in response, Israel has re-imposed a number of controls at its border with Gaza. As with every flare-up of the Arab-Israeli conflict, the air is thick with accusations of violations of international law. Yet criticism of Israeli behavior lacks any basis in international law. By contrast, criticism ought to be voiced regarding illegal Palestinian behavior.

Illegality of Palestinian Attacks Under the Laws of War
Palestinian attacks from Gaza clearly violate many provisions of international law, yet the attacks have drawn little more than pro forma objections from international observers, though it is quite clear that the Palestinian attacks on Israeli civilians are contrary to the standards of international law.
Palestinian attacks violate one of the most basic rules of international humanitarian law: the rule of distinction, which requires combatants to aim all their attacks at legitimate targets – enemy combatants or objects that contribute to enemy military actions. Violations of the rule of distinction – attacks deliberately aimed at civilians or protected objects as such – are war crimes.

One of the corollaries of the rule of distinction is a ban on the use of weapons that are incapable, under the circumstances, of being exclusively aimed at legitimate targets. The projectile weapons being used by the Palestinian attackers are primitive weapons that cannot be aimed at specific targets and must be launched at the center of urban areas. This means that the very use of these weapons under current circumstances violates international law.
Consequently, each one of the 6,000 rocket and mortar attacks by Palestinian terrorists on civilian targets in Israeli cities, towns, and villages is a war crime. Both the terror squads carrying out the attacks, as well as their commanders, bear criminal responsibility for these war crimes. Indeed, criminal responsibility for these crimes extends up the chain of command to the most senior officials in the terror groups who have approved these rocket attacks. Under the rules of command responsibility, senior Hamas leaders such as Khaled Mashal and Ismail Haniyeh, who ordered a continuation of the rocket attacks in response to “Zionist crimes,” are among the parties guilty of war crimes.

In addition, a consortium of Palestinian terrorist groups have held Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit incommunicado and out of reach of the International Committee of the Red Cross since 2006. This is a clear violation of international law concerning prisoners of war.

Illegality of Palestinian Attacks Under the Laws Against Terrorism

The Palestinian attacks, because they are intended to kill or seriously injure civilians in order to intimidate a population, are also terrorist acts within the scope of the International Convention for the Suppression of the Financing of Terrorism. So long as the acts are committed by non-nationals of the target state, Articles 2(4)-(5) extend liability to all those who attempt to commit; participate as accomplices; direct or organize terrorist acts; or contribute to acts by terrorist groups with the knowledge of the groups’ intent to commit terror or with the aim of furthering their goals.
Thus, international law considers a large number of Palestinians related to the attacks to be terrorists: the squads of militants actually carrying out the rocket attacks, all those who assist the squads with organization or financing, and all those who finance the terrorists since they are aware of the intent of the terror squads to carry out terrorist acts.

The Palestinian attacks must also be seen as terrorist attacks under a related international convention: the International Convention for the Suppression of Terrorist Bombings. This convention makes it a crime to bomb public places (such as city streets) with the intent to kill civilians. This relates to bombings carried out by persons that are non-nationals of the state of which the victims are nationals. Also under this Convention, the Palestinian attackers are considered international terrorists and Israel is required to assume criminal jurisdiction over them. Additionally, other states party to the Convention – such as the U.S., Russia, Turkey and France – must cooperate in helping to combat such Palestinian terrorist acts.
Palestinian authorities in Gaza also violate anti-terrorism provisions of international law by providing a safe haven for Palestinian terrorists. UN Security Council Resolution 1566, which was adopted under the authority of Chapter VII of the UN Charter and is therefore binding international law for all states, requires states to deny safe haven to “any person who supports, facilitates, participates or attempts to participate in the financing, planning, preparation or commission of terrorist acts or provides safe havens.” Similarly, Security Council Resolution 1373, also a Chapter VII resolution, requires states to “deny safe haven to those who finance, plan, support, or commit terrorist acts, or provide safe havens.” Together, these documents establish that, under international law, providing safe haven for terrorists is itself a terrorist act. Thus, all Palestinian governing authorities in Gaza, whether directly involved in terror attacks or not, are terrorists under international law, by virtue of their willing provision of safe haven for terrorists.


Illegality of Palestinian Attacks Under the Genocide Convention
In carrying out their attacks on Israeli Jews as part of a larger aim to kill Jews, as demonstrated by the Hamas Covenant, many of the Palestinian terrorists are also violating the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide. Under Article 1 of the Genocide Convention, Israel and other signatories are required to “prevent and punish” not only persons who carry out such genocidal acts, but those who conspire with them, incite them to kill and are complicit with their actions. The Convention thus requires Israel to prevent and punish the terrorists themselves, as well as leading figures that have publicly supported the Palestinian attacks. Article 2 of the Convention defines any killing with intent “to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such” as an act of genocide.

The Hamas attacks fall within this definition of genocide. The Covenant of Hamas explicitly advocates a religious holy war aimed at creating a regional Islamic entity encompassing the territory of Israel and the disputed areas.
The murderous intent of Hamas has been translated into a political program openly aimed at obliterating the Jewish state, as well as a constant stream of terrorist murders. During the three and a half years of fighting from September 2000 until March 2004, Hamas perpetrated 425 terrorist attacks. From those attacks, 377 Israelis were murdered and 2,076 civilians and soldiers were wounded.


Israeli Counter-Measures Conform to International Law
In contrast to the illegal Palestinian attacks from Gaza, Israeli counter-measures have been legal. Indeed, Israel’s responses to Palestinian terrorist attacks and war crimes have been limited to far less than the full measure of actions Israel could legally have undertaken. In fact, Israel’s responses may be properly criticized on the grounds of international law, if at all, for being insufficient rather than excessive.

Many of the legal criticisms of Israel are implicitly based upon misinterpretations of the relevant international law. Moreover, many of the charges are disingenuously based upon misstatements of fact or misuse of legal terminology.
A careful examination of the relevant law demonstrates that Israeli counter-strikes to date, and potential future counter-strikes (both economic and military), conform to the requirements of international law.


The Legality of Israeli Military Actions under Jus ad Bellum
The law of jus ad bellum, as codified by the UN Charter, bars the use of military force against other states under most circumstances. Article 51 of the Charter recognizes the inherent right to self-defense, notwithstanding the general ban on the use of force.

Under international law, it is certain that Israel has the right to use force in defending itself against Palestinian attacks from Gaza. If Gaza is an independent sovereignty, and entitled to all the rights of states under jus ad bellum, Israel would be entitled to use force against Gaza by authority of the inherent right to self-defense referenced by Article 51 of the UN Charter. Gaza would have lost its general immunity from attack by repeatedly striking at its neighbor state and Israel’s use of force would therefore be permissible on the grounds of self-defense.
International humanitarian law regulates the use of force once military action is under way, irrespective of its legality. The two most basic principles of international humanitarian law are the rules of distinction and proportionality: Israel’s counter-strikes have abided by both.



Distinction and Proportionality
The rule of distinction requires aiming attacks only at legitimate (e.g., military and support) targets. The rule of distinction includes elements of intent and expected result: so long as one aims at legitimate targets, the rule of distinction permits the attack, even if the attack is expected to cause collateral damage to civilians and even if, in retrospect, the attack was a mistake based on faulty intelligence. Israel has aimed its strikes at locations from which rockets have been fired, at Palestinian combatants bearing weapons and transporting arms, Palestinian terrorist commanders, and support and command and control centers.

The rule of proportionality operates in conjunction with the rule of distinction to limit collateral damage. It forbids collateral damage that is expected to be excessive in relation to the military need. As with distinction, the rule of proportionality relies upon intent. If Israel plans a strike without expected excessive collateral damage, the rule of proportionality justifies it, even if, in retrospect, Israel erred in its damage estimates.
Legal advisors attached to Israeli military units review proposed military actions. They apply an extremely restrictive standard for both distinction and proportionality, in accordance with intrusive Israeli Supreme Court rulings that have imposed far stricter legal standards on the Israeli military than those found in international law.



Perfidy and Civilian Shields
At the same time, it is clear that Palestinian actions in conducting military operations from within built-up civilian areas, thereby increasing Palestinian casualties, constitute war crimes. It is important to note that Israel is not required to refrain from attacking Palestinian combatants simply because they have chosen to hide behind civilians. As Article 28 of the Fourth Geneva Convention makes clear, the presence of civilians “may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations.” The article also makes Palestinian attempts to use civilian shields unlawful.



Additionally, the fact that Palestinian terrorists dress as civilians in carrying out attacks does not render them immune from attack – it simply makes them lawful targets that are also violating international law. International humanitarian law forbids perfidy, which, for example, means that it is forbidden to feign civilian status while actually being a combatant. The fact that Palestinian terrorists often dress as and pretend to be civilians while carrying out attacks makes it highly likely that many innocent Palestinian civilians will be accidentally killed. However, the war crimes here are Palestinian, and not Israeli.

Retorsion and Collective Punishment

International humanitarian law also provides important rules regarding military acts such as blockades and the imposition of punishment. Israel’s actions abide by these rules as well.
Israel’s imposition of economic sanctions of the Gaza Strip, such as withholding fuel supplies and electricity, does not involve the use of military force and is therefore a perfectly legal means of responding to Palestinian attacks, despite the effects on innocent Palestinian civilians. The use of economic and other non-military sanctions as a means of disciplining other international actors for their misbehavior is a practice known as “retorsion.” Since Israel is under no legal obligation to engage in trade of fuel or anything else with the Gaza Strip, or to maintain open borders with the Gaza Strip, it may withhold commercial items and seal its borders at its discretion, even if intended as “punishment” for Palestinian terrorism.
While international law bars “collective punishment,” none of Israel’s combat actions and retorsions may be considered collective punishment. The bar on collective punishment forbids the imposition of criminal-type penalties on individuals or groups on the basis of another’s guilt, or the commission of acts that would otherwise violate the rules of distinction and/or proportionality. None of Israel’s actions involve the imposition of criminal-type penalties or the violation of the rules of distinction and proportionality.

Examples of retorsions are legion in international affairs. The U.S., for example, froze trade with Iran after the 1979 Revolution and with Uganda in 1978 following accusations of genocide. In 2000, fourteen European states suspended various diplomatic relations with Austria in protest of the participation of Jorg Haider in the government. Numerous states suspended trade and diplomatic relations with South Africa as punishment for apartheid practices. In none of these cases was the charge of “collective punishment” raised. “Punishing” a country with restrictions on international trade is not identical to carrying out “collective punishment” in the legal sense.
4. Control of Airspace and Territorial Waters

Israeli control of Gazan airspace and waters is also legal under international law. The Oslo Accords – the 1990s interim peace agreements between the PLO and Israel – specify continued Israeli security control over Gazan airspace and coastal waters. Even if Gaza became an independent sovereign state, it is arguably still bound to its prior agreements with Israel respecting Israeli security control.

Is Gaza Occupied?

There is no legal basis for maintaining that Gaza is occupied territory. The Fourth Geneva Convention refers to territory as occupied where the territory is of another “High Contracting Party” (i.e., a state party to the convention) and the occupier “exercises the functions of government” in the occupied territory. Yet, the Gaza Strip is not territory of another state party to the convention – Egypt, which previously controlled Gaza, is a party to the convention, but Gaza was never Egyptian territory. And Israel does not exercise the functions of government – or, indeed, any significant functions - in the territory. It is clear to all that the elected Hamas government is the de facto sovereign of the Gaza Strip and does not take direction from Israel, or any other state.
Military superiority over a neighbor does not itself constitute occupation. If it did, the U.S. would have to be considered the occupier of Mexico and Canada, Egypt the occupier of Libya, Iran the occupier of Afghanistan, and Russia the occupier of Latvia.
If Israel were indeed properly considered an occupier, under Article 43 of the regulations attached to the Fourth Hague Convention of 1907, Israel would be required to take “all the measures in power to restore, and ensure, as far as possible, public order and safety.” Thus, those who contend that Israel is in legal occupation of Gaza must also support and even demand Israeli military operations in order to disarm Palestinian terror groups and militias.


Israeli Duties Regarding the Supply of Gaza
Due to internal political considerations, as well as several rulings by the Israeli Supreme Court, Israel continues not only to maintain the flow of basic humanitarian supplies such as food, medicine, and water to the Palestinian population of Gaza, but in many cases to supply the items itself.

Article 23 of the Fourth Geneva Convention permits states such as Israel to cut off fuel supplies and electricity to territories such as Gaza. Article 23 only requires a party to permit passage of food, clothing and medicines intended for children under fifteen, expectant mothers and maternity cases. Moreover, under Article 23, Israel would be under no obligation to provide anything itself; Israel would only be required not to interfere with consignments of food and so forth sent by others for the benefit of children under age fifteen, mothers of newborns and pregnant women.
Finally, under Article 23, a party can block passage even of food, clothing and medicine even for these population groups if it has serious grounds for suspecting that the items will be intercepted before reaching their destination. Israel has excellent grounds for fearing this result, especially after Hamas seized fourteen Red Crescent trucks carrying humanitarian aid on February 7, 2008, on the pretext that only Hamas may decide how to distribute aid in Gaza.

The Israeli Justice Ministry has acknowledged a duty under customary international law not to interfere with the supply of basic humanitarian items such as food and medicine. Regrettably, some Israelis have summarized this acknowledged duty expansively and inaccurately as requiring that Israel ensure a minimum necessary supply of food, fuel and electricity to prevent starvation or a humanitarian crisis. Yet Israel is not required by its customary general humanitarian duties to provide required items itself, only not to interfere with their passage. Moreover, fuel and electricity are almost certainly not items that Israel or other warring parties are required to supply.
Dependence on foreign supply – whether it be Gazan dependence on Israeli electricity, European dependence on Arab oil, or Somali dependence on foreign food aid – does not create a legal duty to continue the supply. Absent specific treaty requirements, countries may cut off oil sales to other states at any time. Neither Israel nor any other country is required to supply goods in response to its foes’ resource mismanagement or lack of natural bounty.
There is no precedent or legal text that creates legal duties on the basis of a former military administration. For instance, no one has ever argued that Egypt has legal duties to supply goods to Gaza due to its former military occupation of the Gaza Strip. Control of airspace does not create a legal duty to supply goods. For instance, UN Security Council-ordered no-fly zones in Iraq, Libya and Bosnia were not seen as the source of any legal duty to supply those countries with electricity, water or other goods.


The Humanitarian Crisis in Gaza in Perspective
The Palestinians are the largest [I]per capita recipients of foreign aid worldwide. In addition, the Washington Institute for Near East Policy has pointed out that as of 2002, based upon contemporary prices, Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza had received “$161 per person per year compared to $68 per person annually under the four-year Marshall Plan, meaning the Palestinians have gotten more than twice as much aid for twice as long as Europe received under the Marshall Plan.”

In fact, classic indicators of the standard of living place Gaza in a reasonably strong position. Life expectancy in the Gaza Strip is 72 years, higher than Russia (66), India (69), Ukraine (68) and Glasgow East (in Scotland), where male life expectancy is 69 years. Similarly, Gaza has a much lower infant mortality rate (21 deaths/1,000 live births) than Angola (182), Iran (37), India (32), Egypt (28) and Brazil (27). Perhaps the most astonishing fact, in light of the sensationalist media coverage damning Gaza’s chances for a better future, is that literacy in Gaza stands at a staggering 92 percent, far higher than India (48), Egypt (59), and even wealthy Saudi Arabia (71).
Likewise, contrary to common mythology that the Gaza Strip is “the most densely populated territory in the world,” Gaza is less densely populated than an array of other locales around the world, including a number of economic success stories. According to the Statistical Abstract of the United States: 2004-2005, the population per square mile in the Gaza Strip was 8,666, while Monaco had a population density of 41,608, Singapore, 17,751, Gibraltar, 11,990, Hong Kong, 17,833, and Macau had a population density nearly ten times that of the Gaza Strip (71,466) in 2003.


Israeli Duties under International Law
Some provisions of international law impose upon Israel duties to act against Gaza and the Palestinian terrorists who are based there. First, as noted above, Israel has the duty to act to prevent and punish Palestinian acts of genocide covered by the Genocide Convention. Second, Israel has the duty, under Security Council Resolution 1373 (a Chapter VII resolution), to take various steps against Palestinian terrorists. Among the required steps “the Council decided that all states should prevent and suppress the financing of terrorism, as well as criminilize the wilful provision or collection of funds for such acts” and the freezing of funds and financial assets “of persons who commit, or attempt to commit, terrorist acts or participate in or facilitate the commission of terrorist acts.”
Israel’s duties to prevent funding of terrorists are far-reaching. Under Resolution 1373, states must “refrain from providing any form of support, active or passive, to entities or persons involved in terrorist acts.” Thus, arguably, Israel is forbidden to supply aid that will be diverted to Hamas and other terrorist groups and will, therefore, become passive support for persons involved in terrorist acts. Additionally, Israel is required by Resolution 1373 to “prevent the movement of terrorists or terrorist groups by effective border controls.” This means that Israel is arguably required to continue maintaining strict controls on the passage of persons from Gaza to Israel.

These duties do not fall solely upon Israel. Other states are also required to prevent and punish Palestinian acts of genocide, and, pursuant to Resolution 1373, to “cooperate, particularly through bilateral and multilateral arrangements and agreements, to prevent and suppress terrorist attacks and take action against perpetrators of such acts.”
The Palestinian-Israeli fighting in Gaza has been characterized by the extensive commission of war crimes, acts of terrorism and acts of genocide by Palestinian fighters. On the other hand, Israeli counter-measures have conformed with the requirements of international law, with the possible exception that Israel may be legally required to cut off aid to the Palestinians. Israel may continue to impose economic sanctions and engage in military strikes including a full-scale assault on the Gaza Strip, as long as it continues to abide by the basic humanitarian rules of distinction and proportionality.

Other states can, and must, do more to encourage compliance with international legal standards by fulfilling their own legal obligations. International law requires Israel and other states to take measures to bring Palestinian war criminals and terrorists to justice, to prevent and punish Palestinian genocidal efforts, and to block the funding of Palestinian terrorist groups and those complicit with them.
* * *

Justus Reid Weiner is an international human rights lawyer and a Scholar-in-Residence at the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs. He served as Director of American Law and External Relations at the Israel Ministry of Justice, specializing in human rights and other facets of public international law.
Avi Bell, Professor of Law at the Bar-Ilan University Faculty of Law, and Visiting Professor at the University of Connecticut School of Law, is Director of the Global Law Forum at the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs.



.....................

[Skybird]

MH, well found. :up:

[Kongo Otto]

Isn't that the woman who embarrased her supporters when it turned out she had simply been making up stories.


Yeah thats maybe truth for hardcore indoctrinated brainwashed Islamistic Supporters like you are, i bet you never did read the book.
But your Al-Taqiyya tactics wont work this time, fanboy!!!!


Twelve Tactics of "Al-Taqiyya" - lying and deception for the promotion of Islam

Most religions respect the truth and forbid lying. However Islam is different.
Allah is 'the best of deceivers' (Koran 3.54), and since the highest goal of Islamic ethics is to spread Islam by any means whatsoever, it is hardly surprising that lying and deceit should be quite acceptable if carried out for the benefit of Islam.
"War is Deceit", said Muhammad, and Islam is always at war with the infidel until Islam dominates.
This 'Holy Lying' is known as taqiyya (sometimes spelled taqiya or taquiya) - This may take many forms, including outright lies, feigned moderation, and condemnation of terrorist attacks to the Infidel while rejoicing with fellow Muslims.

Here are some of the ploys, arguments, logical fallacies and diversionary tactics used by taqiyya tacticians:

[1] Taqiyya about taqiyya.
Muslims deny that taqiyya exists, or that it is used to deceive infidels. 'There is no such thing as Taqiya' (or 'Taqiyya is something I never heard of and I had to go and look it up')

[2] Playing the race card and guilt by association.
An accusation of racism is such a trump card that Jihadists will play it whenever they can. Despite Islam not being a race, any criticism of Islam immediately gets the knee-jerk retaliation of 'racism'.
For example; 'You are expressing the same views about Islam as racists, therefore you are a racist.' This is similar logic to to 'Communists believe two and two make four. You believe two and two make four. Therefore you are a Communist'.

[3] Godwin's Law
- a special (and inevitable) version of guilt by association with racism used in online discussions, whereby the first person to invoke Hitler or the Nazis wins the argument. The 'logic' is something like:

CRITICISM OF ISLAM = RACISM = NAZISM

Therefore, if you criticise Islam you are a Nazi.

[4] Circular reasoning
'The Koran says it is the word of God. So whatever it says must be true. Therefore it is true that the Koran is the word of God because it says so'

[5] The infidels' quotes from the Koran are always taken out of context.
For example 'Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them' is taken out of context, and really means 'Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them setting fire to your house' - or something similar.

[6] Infidels can't understand the original Arabic of the Koran.
So 'Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them' is actually a Medieval Arabic expression meaning 'Help old ladies across busy streets and remember to feed the birds in winter'.

[7] Tu Quoque (you also).
'We blow people up/ behead them but you do the same,'
Normally used in attempts to refute arguments that Islam is intrinsically violent.
Often refers back to the Crusades, Inquisition etc.
Also 'There are equally nasty bits in the Bible'.
Yes, there are violent episodes in the Bible, but the Bible is descriptive of battles and massacres long ago, whereas the Koran is prescriptive of battles and massacres yet to come.

[8] 'Abrahamic/monotheistic faith' false kin argument.
This scam usually take the form of 'Islam is just a further development of Christianity, a brother Abrahamic/ monotheist faith.'
Of course it isn't!
Islam is a travesty and perversion of Christianity in many respects, and Jesus would probably have advised Mohammed to tie a millstone round his neck and jump into the sea. (Mark 9:42).
In Islam stoning of women is still a major spectator sport, whereas Jesus forbade it (John 8:7).
Human sacrifice is an abomination in Judaism and Christianity, but is encouraged in Islam.

[9] Quoting abrogated verses from the Koran in order to appear moderate.
A favorite one is 'Let there be no compulsion in religion'. This verse and many like it are actually null and void and disregarded by all Muslims (though not by gullible infidels). They are peaceful Meccan verses which are competely cancelled by later and much more violent Medinan verses.

[10] 'You owe us a debt of gratitude because Islam is the basis of Western civilisation'.
This sort of statement is usually backed up by revisionist arguments that Muslims invented everything and were responsible for the Renaissance etc.

In some ways this is a rather pathetic quest for significance. Muslim culture has been moribund for the past 600 years, whereas the West has forged ahead. Muslims now want a stake in the success story by claiming they were somehow responsible for the West's development.

[11] 'A third of the world's population believe in Islam, so it deserves respect.'
But not so long ago a third of the world's population believed the earth was flat. Numbers don't mean anything, especially when the Islamic population is the most backward and illiterate on earth. Muslims are very keen on 'respect', but someone should tell them that respect needs to be earned.

[12] 'We are victims of Islamophobia'.
Muslims are always playing the victim, if not of racism then of the even more heinous thought-crime of ISLAMOPHOBIA.
Of course there is no such thing as Islamophobia, since a phobia is an irrational fear, whereas fear of Islam as a clear and present danger is a totally rational reaction from any infidel.

[geetrue]

History proves that sooner or later talking shall come to an end and the battle begins.

This may or may not be the big one that tests Israel as a unified nation against her enemies.

Prophecy has it that, "Hamas will hurt Israel so bad that it will shock the world"

Sooner or later blood will be shed just like in the late 70's in the UK against Argentine

[Jimbuna]

Sooner or later blood will be shed just like in the late 70's in the UK against Argentine

Are you perhaps referring to the Falklands Conflict in 82?

[Gerald]

Stone edge :smug:

[Jimbuna]

Stone edge :smug:

EH?

[Gerald]

EH? 30y ago, hardly :hmmm:

[Jimbuna]

No comprendae :o

[geetrue]

Are you perhaps referring to the Falklands Conflict in 82?


Yes, 1982 I'm sorry :)

Falklands Few - Countdown To Conflict (http://www.falklandsfew.org.uk/html/countdown_to_conflict.cfm)




(http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/#)
(http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/#)
More on this page

To all those who never came home but gave their l..." click here to view poppy dedications

Countdown To Conflict
The tiny Falkland Islands have been in dispute for centuries. First sighted by English navigator John Davies in 1592, it ...
Cached page (http://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?q=Falklands+Conflict&d=5042223218100766&mkt=en-US&setlang=en-US&w=43114d12,3fc21901)





Countdown To Conflict. The tiny Falkland Islands have been in dispute for centuries.
www.falklands (http://www.<b>falklands</b>)few.org.uk/html/countdown_to_conflict.cfm

[Gerald]

About,Falklands Conflict in 82....any bells? :hmm2:

[Kongo Otto]

No comprendae :o

I think he ment "Stone age" in terms of "bombing them back to stone age"

[Jimbuna]

Yes, 1982 I'm sorry :)

Falklands Few - Countdown To Conflict (http://www.falklandsfew.org.uk/html/countdown_to_conflict.cfm)




(http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/#)
(http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/#)
More on this page

To all those who never came home but gave their l..." click here to view poppy dedications

Countdown To Conflict
The tiny Falkland Islands have been in dispute for centuries. First sighted by English navigator John Davies in 1592, it ...
Cached page (http://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?q=Falklands+Conflict&d=5042223218100766&mkt=en-US&setlang=en-US&w=43114d12,3fc21901)





Countdown To Conflict. The tiny Falkland Islands have been in dispute for centuries.
www.falklands (http://www.<b>falklands</b>)few.org.uk/html/countdown_to_conflict.cfm

Rgr that matey :up:

[Jimbuna]

I think he ment "Stone age" in terms of "bombing them back to stone age"

No, I don't think so :03:

[1480]

I think he ment "Stone age" in terms of "bombing them back to stone age"

I think he was speaking with Nigel's accent from Spinal Tap and saying Stone Henge :haha:

[Kongo Otto]

No, I don't think so :03:

Now i got it!! me stupid!! :oops::oops::oops:

[Jimbuna]

Now i got it!! me stupid!! :oops::oops::oops:

Danke :sunny:

[Tribesman]

Yeah thats maybe truth for hardcore indoctrinated brainwashed Islamistic Supporters like you are, i bet you never did read the book.

Indoctrinasted brainwashed islamic supporter?
Did that touch a nerve or are you on some really bad drugs or something:rotfl2:
Can you manage to write any more rubbish?
Only a fool would try and claim Ali hadn't been making stuff up.
After all her bull nearly got her citizenship revoked when it was made public

But your Al-Taqiyya tactics wont work this time, fanboy!!!!
You really need to lay of those drugs and lie down for a while.

By the way in case you didn't know that other "good" author was also widely exposed for simply making stuff up too, by Christian terrorists as it happens:yeah:...and was condemned by the Jewish groups she had been invited to speak to on Islam for being a crazy extremist.

It is you who is the fanboy who has simply swallowed far too much without chewing it over.

Come to think of it your little cut an paste diatribe flies straight back knocking those you are trying to support.
Was it by any chance a cut and paste from that crazy loon Geller who also has a rather nasty habit of lying:hmmm:
You really should aviod those exremists, they are just as crazy as the islamists