Italian militar navy

[Akilleùs]

What do you think about Italian militar navy in the WW2?

[Gerald]

I say,some bad, and not the best conditions...here a link,

http://www.everythingworldwar2.com/world_war_2_military_units/world_war_2_military_units.html#italymilitary

[soopaman2]

Overachieving in comparison with the technology available compared to both enemies and allies.

Italy ran into its troubles due to poor leadership, and not so much as the men or machinery.

(My ancestors hail from Firenze, greetings)

[Jimbuna]

What do you think about Italian militar navy in the WW2?

Being a Brit I doubt you'd appreciate my response....but your frogmen had a few glorious moments :03:

[Akilleùs]

Uhm, yes, i think italy was in a mess in those years... and in these too (thank you Berlusconi :x)

[Jimbuna]

Uhm, yes, i think italy was in a mess in those years... and in these too (thank you Berlusconi :x)

QFT :DL

[soopaman2]

QFT :DL

Darn you honest Brits.

I was trying to give a positive.:D

All jokes aside Silvio is a problem. At least in America the politicians "try" to hide the corruption.:cry:

[Akilleùs]

Berlusconi is an idiot (sorry for word) who entered in policy because he wonts to end up in prison. And i hope you in Britain don't think we are all for Berlusconi! we hate he, but he wins all the time! (obviously for false votes)
Again an other excuse for ugly english. If you have understood what i said, you are linguists.

[soopaman2]

Berlusconi is an idiot (sorry for word) who entered in policy because he wonts to end up in prison. And i hope you in Britain don't think we are all for Berlusconi! we hate he, but he wins all the time! (obviously for false votes)
Again an other excuse for ugly english. If you have understood what i said, you are linguists.

You are doing fine, sir.

There are Americans who only speak one language, who lack English skills.:)

[Akilleùs]

Uhu, my teacher says '' you don't speak english well and i think you don't know what is English''. >_>''

[frau kaleun]

Uhu, my teacher says '' you don't speak english well and i think you don't know what is English''. >_>''

You are doing fine.

Plus in my head you sound just like Fabio from Top Chef, and it's adorable. :D :O:

[Akilleùs]

ahahahahah thank you! Instead i like English accent in Italian!!!

[kranz]

'' you don't speak english well and i think you don't know what is English''. >_>''
well, if that's an exact quotation he shouldn't teach English.:DL

[Akilleùs]

sorry if i tell you about this: how the hell do i change my picture?

[Betonov]

Just don't use google translate

1) you'll learn by communicating on this forum :up:

2) the translations goven to you are ranging from funny to hilariusly absurd :DL

[kranz]

and it's adorable. :D :O:
lol, Frau...I'm Italian as well...:03:

[Akilleùs]

for Freu Kaleun : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVUlhi8pe0c eheheh :DL

[Gerald]

sorry if i tell you about this: how the hell do i change my picture? Talk to Mr. Neal Stevens,(owner to SubSim) send a pm, and tell him.

[frau kaleun]

sorry if i tell you about this: how the hell do i change my picture?

Your avatar picture (and rank) changes depending on how many times you post. Keep posting, and it will change. Mostly for the better, but occasionally (and hilariously) for the worse, although those usually don't last very long - sometimes only for one post.

Or you can get a custom picture and rank by donating to support the site.

[Gerald]

Right on, as said above ... and the better the photo is, you higher ya donate :D

[frau kaleun]

for Freu Kaleun : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVUlhi8pe0c eheheh :DL

:haha:

Reminds me of how much I loved that movie. I really should get a copy and watch it again. :yep:

[Dread Knot]

What do you think about Italian militar navy in the WW2?

Well-designed and fast ships, but hampered by geography, a lack of radar and a fleet air arm. Lack of fuel also became a problem as your German allies began to hog the shrinking supply.

[Akilleùs]

oh, thank you very much Freu for your help, now i'm installing Grey Wolves. :yeah:

[frau kaleun]

oh, thank you very much Freu for your help, now i'm installing Grey Wolves. :yeah:

:salute:

[Akilleùs]

Uhm, how it's the situation in United Kingdom now? there are again fights?

[Gerald]

Uhm, how it's the situation in United Kingdom now? there are again fights? Fights, in which way? :hmmm:

[Betonov]

I think he means riots.

Jimbuna managed to pacify the population, the problem is now the streets are empty since no-one wants to met Jim and his night stick :DL

[Akilleùs]

in London, the sony palace... no?

[papa_smurf]

Apologies for the Taranto incident, but it was necessary:yep:.

[Oberon]

The Italian navy was very underrated, it could have been a lot more of a trouble for the Royal Navy than it was had it been used better.

http://www.maritimequest.com/warship_directory/italy/battleships/photos/vittorio_veneto/vittorio_veneto_1943.jpg

I think if they had had radar installed on their fleet then Matapan may have gone a different way...

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Just don't use google translate <snip>

2) the translations goven to you are ranging from funny to hilariusly absurd :DLQFT! I tried to translate one article with that "translator". I ended up spending 1h 30min fixing that "translation" while it would have taken about 15min to translate it without assistance.

P.S. Add expletives to above as you see necessary...

[Jimbuna]

Darn you honest Brits.

I was trying to give a positive.:D

All jokes aside Silvio is a problem. At least in America the politicians "try" to hide the corruption.:cry:

Anyone at his age that can still 'perform' with a much younger female is to be admired :O:

[Jimbuna]

The Italian navy was very underrated, it could have been a lot more of a trouble for the Royal Navy than it was had it been used better.

I think if they had had radar installed on their fleet then Matapan may have gone a different way...

ROLLOCKS!!......the British maxim of 'ENGAGE THE ENEMY AT EVERY OPPORTUNITY' was a tad too daunting and so events proved :salute:

I think he means riots.

Jimbuna managed to pacify the population, the problem is now the streets are empty since no-one wants to met Jim and his night stick :DL

Never been caught on camera though :03:

[Oberon]

It helped that we had air superiority from our carriers though, well, until the Luftwaffe moved into town of course.

[Jimbuna]

It helped that we had air superiority from our carriers though, well, until the Luftwaffe moved into town of course.

Never stifled the surface engagements :03:

[TLAM Strike]

What do you think about Italian militar navy in the WW2?


They had a Navy? :06:

Wait... they had a Military? :doh:


:O:

[Randomizer]

Just considered opinions but...

The Italian Navy (RM for Regina Marina) was handicapped in virtually every field and so deserve credit for performing as well as the ultimately did. The Fleet certainly does not deserve to be the figure of fun that it is in so many English language commentaries. However, most of the fatal problems were self-inflicted, either by a dysfunctional Naval High Command or the fascist regime itself.

Good Material However...:

Italian ships were well regarded internationally and Italian designs out sold British designs on the international market during the inter war period. This indicates a fundemental soundness in the design philosophy, workmanship and utility of Italian naval constructors. So, while the ships themselves were generally sound, they lacked far more than radar when hostilities broke out. There was no ship to ship voice communications, cyphers were still manually coded and decoded, night fighting ability and aids were, for all intents and purposes non-existant and fuel stocks were low as were staples like ammunition and spare parts.

Fatally Flawed Strategy:

The RM had planned to fight a war against France alone but this was illusory as a Franco-Italian war without Britian was realistically inconcevable. So, without any realistic war plans it stood to reason that the Navy would be totally unprepared when Mussolini declared war on 10 June 1940. Given that in the event of a war with France, most of the action would be in North Africa, the naval situation was curious. The French Fleet could not intervene against the sea lines of communications (SLOC's) without sailing into the Italian's back yard, something they were unlikely to do. The same was true for the RM however, so the Mahanian idea of the "Fleet in Being" took hold and dominated pre-war naval planning.

War against Britain however created new strategic realities that the RM never grasped. British control of both ends of the Med (Gibraltar to the west and Alexandria to the east) was essentially irrelevant to Italian control of the Central Med. Aggressive use of naval aircraft and submarines barriers and the seizure of Malta would have allowed the RM's domination of the SLOC's to Libya but this strategy meant that the fleet had to be used. Mahan was wrong and the Fleet in Being idea was fatally flawed as it was applied to the Italian situation in the Med.

Wrong Doctrines:

The Italians were world leaders in aviation between the wars and developed a number of torpedo carrying bombers that might have made the Central Med untenable for the Brits. However, there was nothing resembling an offensive naval air arm, under naval command and trained for sea denial and control tasks. Likewise there was little done in the way of aerial ASW, no airborne radar or effective aircraft depth charges existed. Italy was building an aircraft carrier but it really did not require one as the airfields in Sciliy and Libya were capable of dominating the waters of strategc importance to the Italian prosecution of a campaign in North Africa. This was never even attempted systematically and the Air Force contribution to the naval war was spotty and largely ineffective. Without integrated air support the RM's sea control tasks became impossible. Once again, the failure to take Malta hurt the RM's operations.

Italian submarine doctrine was flawed in that the best boats were skimmed off to BETASOM fight Hitler's tonnage war in the Atlantic while the British navy in the Med got what was essentially a free pass. Italian submarine captains had not been inculcated to be aggressive during the formative pre-war era and so, like other submarine services, they started overly cautious and then focussed on war against trade. The RM submarine force was strategically placed and operationally required to bring the war to the Royal Navy's warships but it would never do so effectively. So, the brilliant frogman attack on Alex was wasted because the Fleet never followed it up and little effort was made to attrit the RN at sea. The RM never even attempted to place a significant submarine force in Italian East Africa to block access to the Suez Canal through the Red Sea.

The obsession with preserving the battleships is typical but the Italian battle force served no constructive purpose riding at anchor. Ironically, the Italian naval experience in the Great War pointed to the utility of light forces and aircraft and all of the RM's successes from 1915-18 were by these means. This was forgotten in 1940.

Doomed Anyway?

Realistic preparations for war against Britain should have resulted in a battle fleet trained and equipped for all-weather fighting (even without radar), effective land-based naval aviation, effective submarine forward operating bases in Eritrea and Mogadishu to close the Red Sea, and a detailed invasion plan for Malta. None of these things existed but all were necessary to be in place before declaring war on the UK. This isn't 20/20 hindsight, all of the above was fully in accordance with the art of naval warfare as it existed in 1940.

Without enough oil fuel to train and realistic planning and preparation for the war that ensued (that could have been and was anticipated) it's likely that a more aggressive stance by the RM that was required by Italy's strategic situation would have just padded the Royal Navy's pantheon of victories. Without modern war-fighting aids, lacking an effective naval air arm, adhereing to a fatally flawed doctrine and without the fuel to have trained and prepared for real combat, it's a credit to the Italian sailors that they did as well as they did. How many navies given similar handicaps would have done better?

Offered up as $0.02 worth; not bad for a wall of text...

[CaptainMattJ.]

the Italian Navy, and Italians in general were highly underrated.

The Italian Navy, even though hampered by some technological advances, such as radar, were quite powerful. Had the Italians had a better command structure, a bigger will to fight, a more efficient air force, and radar it couldve most certainly changed the war in the Mediterranean and North Africa.

Most of that wasnt hard to find either. With the exception of radar, the italians couldve taken the mediterranean, securing north africa and the suez canal.

[TLAM Strike]

With the exception of radar, the italians couldve taken the mediterranean, securing north africa and the suez canal.

Refresh my memory but where did the Americans land to relive Montgomery in North Africa? Oh that's right Morocco, a country not in the Mediterranean.

Even if the Italians had a secure route across the Med they would just have been pouring troops and supplies in to a two front war.

[Tribesman]

Refresh my memory but where did the Americans land to relive Montgomery in North Africa? Oh that's right Morocco, a country not in the Mediterranean.
Indeed refresh your memory.
Two of the three task forces landed in the Med and though the Moroccan landings were on its western coast its northern cost is on the Med which makes it a Mediterranean country too.:yep:

[TLAM Strike]

Indeed refresh your memory.
Two of the three task forces landed in the Med and though the Moroccan landings were on its western coast its northern cost is on the Med which makes it a Mediterranean country too.:yep:

And its nearly in gun range of the rock. Even the Italians know not to send surface ships within range of shore batteries. Heck they would be in range of bombers based in Brittan! (FWI the airborne element of the invasion launched from England. Maybe August would know but I reckon that was the longest ranged airdrop of troops in the war.)

[Tribesman]

And its nearly in gun range of the rock. Even the Italians know not to send surface ships within range of shore batteries.
Gibraltars shore batteries????????
Oran is nearly 300 miles away, Algiers is nearly as far away again.
Those 9.2s in Gib must have had some magic powder to be making those ranges.

[Akilleùs]

uhm....fortunately, now we have build a new class of submarine with germany: u212 class.
this class is very powerful and silent! take a look: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_212_submarine :cool:

[Gerald]

uhm....fortunately, now we have build a new class of submarine with germany: u212 class.
this class is very powerful and silent! take a look: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_212_submarine :cool: This is not WWII, :hmmm:

[Oberon]

uhm....fortunately, now we have build a new class of submarine with germany: u212 class.
this class is very powerful and silent! take a look: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_212_submarine :cool:

It's a good choice, the 212s are a solid class of boats. I just hope that Greece doesn't drag you down with it when it goes.

[Jimbuna]

It's a good choice, the 212s are a solid class of boats. I just hope that Greece doesn't drag you down with it when it goes.

Didn't the Greeks cancel one or send one back or something of that nature? :hmmm:

[Gerald]

They should do so....if not

[Jimbuna]

I may have been thinking of this...dates back to May:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/22/thyssenkrupp-greece-idUSLDE74L0B320110522

[Gerald]

Right,:up:

[Oberon]

I may have been thinking of this...dates back to May:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/22/thyssenkrupp-greece-idUSLDE74L0B320110522

Yeah, but they were the 214s, the Greek trouble boats. The 212s are a little better, because the 214s are geared more towards exporting.

[sidslotm]

I don't know much about the Italian war effort other than the sank many of our ships, heh. But Italy design some of the most spectacular machines know to man.

"A thing of beauty is a joy forever"


http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/7839/beveltechducatidesmo1.jpg

[TLAM Strike]

But Italy design some of the most spectacular machines know to man.

:o

:06::06::06:

I don't think we are talking about the same Italy. We are talking about the one that built stuff like this:
http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/5893/itam1139side.jpg

[Kongo Otto]

Plus in my head you sound just like Fabio from Top Chef, and it's adorable. :D :O:

Fabio from Top chef ist this guy, aint it?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6EaoPMANQM&feature=relmfu

:har:

[Jimbuna]

Yeah, but they were the 214s, the Greek trouble boats. The 212s are a little better, because the 214s are geared more towards exporting.

Rgr that matey http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/pirate.gif

[Tribesman]

We are talking about the one that built stuff like this:

Good point, that would be comparable in armament and performance to masterpieces of the same years, so the Italians were matching such advanced foriegn designs as errrr...the later M2;)

[Jimbuna]

Yeah, but they were the 214s, the Greek trouble boats. The 212s are a little better, because the 214s are geared more towards exporting.

But the question remains...can they afford them?

[frau kaleun]

Fabio from Top chef ist this guy, aint it?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6EaoPMANQM&feature=relmfu

:har:

Nope, that's Manuel. He's from Barcelona. :O:

[JU_88]

Italy had a pretty sizable sub fleet didnt it?, I wish there was a bit more info on italian subs.

[Torplexed]

Italy had a pretty sizable sub fleet didnt it?, I wish there was a bit more info on italian subs.

When they entered the war in June 1940, the Italian navy had 115 submarines, of which 84 were operational. However, a shocking 10 were lost in the first twenty days of action, due partly to flaws in quality, or poor training, and partly due to reckless bravado. After that experience the Italians never had more than 25 to 30 boats operational at any one time. With a few bright exceptions they were poorly directed and accomplished little.

[Kongo Otto]

Nope, that's Manuel. He's from Barcelona. :O:

:D:D

[TLAM Strike]

Good point, that would be comparable in armament and performance to masterpieces of the same years, so the Italians were matching such advanced foriegn designs as errrr...the later M2;)

:stare: The M2 did alright on the 'canal.

http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/3793/gbm2a4.jpg

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think the Fiat M11/39 participated in the Italian equivalent of one of the greatest battles in the history of the Marine Corps and the turning point of the entire war in the South Pacific. :03:

[Kongo Otto]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think the Fiat M11/39 participated in the Italian equivalent of one of the greatest battles in the history of the Marine Corps and the turning point of the entire war in the South Pacific. :03:

Hmm well if the M2 had to participate in Tank battles like the were fought in North Africa, i doubt he would have performed that well.

May i ask why Guadalcanal was the turning point in the entire war in the south pacific?
I always thaught Midway was the turning point.

[Torplexed]

Hmm well if the M2 had to participate in Tank battles like the were fought in North Africa, i doubt he would have performed that well.

May i ask why Guadalcanal was the turning point in the entire war in the south pacific?
I always thaught Midway was the turning point.

Guadalcanal (and Milne Bay) were the first places where the Imperial Japanese Army was stopped cold. Midway (and the Coral Sea) were the first checks for the Imperial Japanese Navy.

[TLAM Strike]

May i ask why Guadalcanal was the turning point in the entire war in the south pacific?
I always thaught Midway was the turning point.
Midway was in the Central Pacific. Guadalcanal was in the South Pacific.

Guadalcanal forced the Japanese navy in to a war of attrition in a peripheral area where the US could concentrate its lessor forces. In essence it allowed the USN to bite off what it could chew of the IJN while costing the Japanese much more than what the islands were worth.

[Tribesman]

The M2 did alright on the 'canal.

The opposing armour consisted of 8 Japanese light tanks from 1935 didn't it?

[Jimbuna]

Italy had a pretty sizable sub fleet didnt it?, I wish there was a bit more info on italian subs.

http://www.scmncamogli.org/oldsite/tasman/nsom_nar.htm

http://comandosupremo.com/fareast.html

http://merchantships2.tripod.com/charlie/veerhavendavinci.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAKJU3R66I4

http://www.2worldwar2.com/submarines.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_submarines_of_World_War_II

http://www.naval-history.net/WW2CampaignsItalianNavy2.htm

http://silentseawolvesmsw.devhub.com/blog/516209-axis-submarine-operations-in-world-war-ii/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78QvEKmqupE

http://www.enotes.com/topic/Italian_submarines_of_World_War_II

[Dread Knot]

The opposing armour consisted of 8 Japanese light tanks from 1935 didn't it?

The few Japanese tanks brought to Guadalcanal never met any American ones. They were all knocked out by 37mm anti-tank guns or breakdowns at the Matanikau River battle. The M2s used at the Battle of the Tenaru River faced no proper Japanese anti-tank weapons of any sort.

[Oberon]

To be fair, Japanese tanks...well... :damn:

The only decent Jap tanks were either never built or only about six made and that was the Chi-Ri, Chi-Nu, and Chi-To, and even they would probably have struggled against a Sherman.

The Japanese couldn't make decent tanks until the Germans showed them how and by then it was too late.

[Dread Knot]

To be fair, Japanese tanks...well... :damn:

The only decent Jap tanks were either never built or only about six made and that was the Chi-Ri, Chi-Nu, and Chi-To, and even they would probably have struggled against a Sherman.

The Japanese couldn't make decent tanks until the Germans showed them how and by then it was too late.

Given the many demands made on the slim reed that was Japanese industry, tanks had to take a low priority in production as well.

[Oberon]

Hmm well if the M2 had to participate in Tank battles like the were fought in North Africa, i doubt he would have performed that well.


36 of them did. We brought 36 and then switched the order to improved M3 Stuarts, I can't seem to find any info on how they performed though.

[Jimbuna]

36 of them did. We brought 36 and then switched the order to improved M3 Stuarts, I can't seem to find any info on how they performed though.

*Off the top of my head*

They were utilised as recon units because of their size, speed and agility.


(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom)Britain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom) ordered 100 M2A4s in early 1941. After 36 of them were delivered, the order was canceled in favor of an improved (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom)M3 Stuart (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuart_tank). There is evidence that indicates those 36 M2A4s were shipped off from North Africa as part of the (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom)British Army (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Army)'s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom)7th Hussars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7th_Hussars) and (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom)2nd Royal Tank Regiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2nd_Royal_Tank_Regiment), fighting in the (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom)India (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India) and (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom)Burma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burma) campaigns against the (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom)Japanese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan) 14th Tank Regiment
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom)

[Raptor1]

By what I can find, in late 1941 the M2s made up the 7th Armoured Division's 4th Armoured Brigade as part of the 3rd and 5th Royal Tank Regiments and the 8th Hussars. However, I also see those units being referenced as fielding M3s, which means they might have fielded a mixed force or that the M2s were used to replenish combat losses during Operation Crusader.

[Jimbuna]

By what I can find, in late 1941 the M2s made up the 7th Armoured Division's 4th Armoured Brigade as part of the 3rd and 5th Royal Tank Regiments and the 8th Hussars. However, I also see those units being referenced as fielding M3s, which means they might have fielded a mixed force or that the M2s were used to replenish combat losses during Operation Crusader.

Post above yours confirms but also explains where they were shipped to.