View Full Version : Wikileaks' Julian Assange loses extradition appeal
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15549985
Note: 2 November 2011 Last updated at 12:18 GMT
Kazuaki Shimazaki II
11-02-11, 10:09 AM
The Empire strikes back. What chance does one man have?
Well,He will appeal the decision but I guess he will be extradited, and then the truth emerges.
soopaman2
11-02-11, 11:08 AM
Good he can be subjected to trial to either bring justice to the victim, or exonerate the man. He can afford a good defense I am sure.
The mood so far treats him like a hero. I see different. I see an informational terrorist who endangered troops.
And in older times, his buddy PFC Manning woulda been hung from the neck for treason, but the PC patrol has taken America over.
Ducimus
11-02-11, 11:10 AM
What was that phrase again..... One who lives in a glass house should not be throwing stones, or something to that effect? I think that applies to "Mr Transparency".
Good he can be subjected to trial to either bring justice to the victim, or exonerate the man. He can afford a good defense I am sure.
The mood so far treats him like a hero. I see different. I see an informational terrorist who endangered troops.
And in older times, his buddy PFC Manning woulda been hung from the neck for treason, but the PC patrol has taken America over. So it may be, many of his "former friends" are no longer at his side, and he will need quite a lot of help if he will survive this time.
mookiemookie
11-02-11, 11:25 AM
I guess it doesn't pay to be the one to say the emperor has no clothes...
Ducimus
11-02-11, 11:32 AM
The mood so far treats him like a hero. I see different. I see an informational terrorist who endangered troops.
And in older times, his buddy PFC Manning woulda been hung from the neck for treason, but the PC patrol has taken America over.
If I had my way, Julian would be biting a pillow in prison, and Manning would be wearing a hemp necktie.
Tribesman
11-02-11, 11:45 AM
I see an informational terrorist who endangered troops.
Could you elaborate on how you think he endangered troops?
It was a common line when the story broke but it was a line that everyone seemed to back away from when pushed as to how it was endangering troops.
Jimbuna
11-02-11, 12:03 PM
I can't say I'm suprised....must be feeling rather lonely right now...interesting times ahead though I suspect.
Ducimus
11-02-11, 12:11 PM
Could you elaborate on how you think he endangered troops?
It was a common line when the story broke but it was a line that everyone seemed to back away from when pushed as to how it was endangering troops.
It's called "OpSec", or Operational Security (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operations_security). Even seemingly innocuous information can give an enemy wanted intel. This can range from what units are stationed where, what they do, to standard operating procedures. A tid bit here, or there and you can piece together a bigger picture.
The bottom line is the more you know about an enemy, the better you can draw together plans to act against him, or to counter his movements and tactics.
OpSec is common knowledge to anyone in the military.
soopaman2
11-02-11, 12:16 PM
So it may be, many of his "former friends" are no longer at his side, and he will need quite a lot of help if he will survive this time.
Don't get me wrong. I am not one to call him guilty based on accusations alone. I also understand countries wanting to cornhole him unjustly.
I do not know how Swedish trials work, but I am sure it will be fair, as long as protocol is followed.
His document leaking thing? I am more angry at the people who gave them to him. I just wish he thought about other things than smearing certain countries, before publishing it.
If he has nothing to hide and is 100% innocent then why has he be in & out of British courts so many times now? :hmmm:
joegrundman
11-02-11, 12:21 PM
rape charge is rape charge, and wikileaks is wikileaks
ducimus, get over it. it will just stress you out.
soopaman2
11-02-11, 12:24 PM
It's called "OpSec", or Operational Security (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operations_security). Even seemingly innocuous information can give an enemy wanted intel. This can range from what units are stationed where, what they do, to standard operating procedures. A tid bit here, or there and you can piece together a bigger picture.
The bottom line is the more you know about an enemy, the better you can draw together plans to act against him, or to counter his movements and tactics.
OpSec is common knowledge to anyone in the military.
Thanks.:yeah:
Loose lips sink ships. Just saying you saw American soldiers at (whatever pub) in Britain before D-day could have jeapordized the operation.
His "activism" is a detriment to people just doing their jobs, more than the people he wishes to hurt. (being the elites, who start this stuff)
Ducimus
11-02-11, 12:28 PM
rape charge is rape charge, and wikileaks is wikileaks
ducimus, get over it. it will just stress you out.
Im far from stressed. Hell, im on "hang loose time", having just come back from a honeymoon on a cruise ship to hawaii. I merely stated what i think should happen to the indviduals involved, because i could give less then a scat, about either of them. Im just bored, making conversation. :O:
TFatseas
11-02-11, 12:30 PM
Thanks.:yeah:
Loose lips sink ships. Just saying you saw American soldiers at (whatever pub) in Britain before D-day could have jeapordized the operation.
His "activism" is a detriment to people just doing their jobs, more than the people he wishes to hurt. (being the elites, who start this stuff)
Yep, violation of OPSEC is a violation of the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) and one can and will be prosecuted under military law.
IIRC he is being charged under article 92 and 134 of the UCMJ.
Don't get me wrong. I am not one to call him guilty based on accusations alone. I also understand countries wanting to cornhole him unjustly.
I do not know how Swedish trials work, but I am sure it will be fair, as long as protocol is followed.
His document leaking thing? I am more angry at the people who gave them to him. I just wish he thought about other things than smearing certain countries, before publishing it.
I saw your lines in a proper manner, and it was a mistake made when he was arrested first time, and then released, but because new facts have come along the way, so the situation is different now it was in the past, and this has nothing to do with his activities with Cabels, etc.
soopaman2
11-02-11, 12:38 PM
Yep, violation of OPSEC is a violation of the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) and one can and will be prosecuted under military law.
IIRC he is being charged under article 92 and 134 of the UCMJ.
Julian is Australian, we would have to get him here first I think.
The slap on the wrists on the American leaker is really what chaps my backside.
As I said before, a rope or a firing squad would have awaited these traitors in older times.
What about international courts, like the Hague, can they try him on American laws?
TFatseas
11-02-11, 12:52 PM
Julian is Australian, we would have to get him here first I think.
The slap on the wrists on the American leaker is really what chaps my backside.
As I said before, a rope or a firing squad would have awaited these traitors in older times.
What about international courts, like the Hague, can they try him on American laws?
Oops, I thought you were talking about Bradley Manning, my bad.
soopaman2
11-02-11, 12:57 PM
Oops, I thought you were talking about Bradley Manning, my bad.
You are still right, sir.
There should be consequences. Julian is simply the outlet. You can almost consider him a journalist (with an agenda). Manning is the real scum.
But most of his "job" was done by his employees, while he was standing as front man and PR.
Ducimus
11-02-11, 01:22 PM
As I said before, a rope or a firing squad would have awaited these traitors in older times.
Probably a rope. It's my understanding that, in "older times", as military executions go, a firing squad was considered a more honorable death then being hung - a soldiers death as it were. So i would think, anyone guilty of treason would have been hung.
TFatseas
11-02-11, 01:28 PM
You are still right, sir.
There should be consequences. Julian is simply the outlet. You can almost consider him a journalist (with an agenda). Manning is the real scum.
I know Manning is at least facing life in prison. I would be surprised if he didn't get it, at least from my knowledge of the Military court system.
I don't feel a bit sorry for him, nobody forced him to sign those enlistment papers and recite his oath.
Tribesman
11-02-11, 02:11 PM
It's called "OpSec", or Operational Security (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operations_security).
And how does that relate to either the content of the diplomatic cables or the claim soopaman made?
After all how does a cable about Shell being corrupt or BAE selling overpriced crap in Africa endager American troops or American operations?
I would say that it is far from the main topic, ;)
Tribesman
11-02-11, 03:01 PM
I would say that it is far from the main topic,
Soopaman raised it, but as it was already widely dealt with at the time of the leaks I am curious how someone could still spill that line out and how another could try and back up that claim.
I mean there was military stuff too like the Panama canal and the straights of hormuz are vital waterways....but anyone with a brain knows that already without a diplomatic cable to confirm it.
As joegrundman put it rape charge is rape charge, and wikileaks is wikileaks, linking the two is dodgy and any attempt to link the two in the legal process will backfire.
Yes, I know the tours in the thread....
Jimbuna
11-02-11, 03:43 PM
Soopaman raised it, but as it was already widely dealt with at the time of the leaks I am curious how someone could still spill that line out and how another could try and back up that claim.
I mean there was military stuff too like the Panama canal and the straights of hormuz are vital waterways....but anyone with a brain knows that already without a diplomatic cable to confirm it.
As joegrundman put it rape charge is rape charge, and wikileaks is wikileaks, linking the two is dodgy and any attempt to link the two in the legal process will backfire.
'Done like a kipper' springs to mind :hmmm:
Ducimus
11-02-11, 03:51 PM
After all how does a cable about Shell being corrupt or BAE selling overpriced crap in Africa endager American troops or American operations?
Last I heard, wikileaks released a hell of a lot more then just what your citing.
Tribesman
11-02-11, 05:04 PM
Last I heard, wikileaks released a hell of a lot more then just what your citing.
Yes , of the quarter of a million documents less than 3 dozen related to what you are on about, those include such vital "secrets" as shipping lanes being important to shipping.:doh:
FYI, it was more than a quarter of a million document, which contained information from early 1960.
Platapus
11-02-11, 05:31 PM
Being a pedantic bombastic snooty know it all jerk, the correct word when referring to executing a human in this manner is always hanged. It is appropriate for all tenses.
He was hanged yesterday
He is being hanged today
He will be hanged tomorrow
Platapus
11-02-11, 05:33 PM
Why do some people insist that unless the information leaked has already harmed someone that the information leak is harmless?
We may never know who has been or may, in the future, be harmed by what Manning did.
It is immaterial. In convicting for unauthorized release of sensitive information, actual harm does not need to be demonstrated.
The crime is not the harm but the actual act.
Tribesman
11-02-11, 06:16 PM
Why do some people insist that unless the information leaked has already harmed someone that the information leak is harmless?
It has harmed quite a lot of people, but has it endangered troops?
The crime is not the harm but the actual act.
But which act by which person and which crime?
The information from Manning and the information from Assange are two very different issues even though the information is the same, the sex crime allegations are a different matter entirely.
Skybird
11-02-11, 06:19 PM
Whatever. The whole story still smells, still looks constructued and suspicious, but - fair or not, right or not, justified or not: Assange is finished.
Which most likely was the intention behind this plot.
His platform is almost done, shreddered by conflicts between too big egos. Or when was it you heared the last time of Wikileaks? Months, I would say.
Platapus
11-02-11, 06:28 PM
But which act by which person and which crime?
I am primarily concerned with the crimes committed by Manning. It was Manning that had the legal (and moral if that is important) responsibility to safeguard the information he had access to in accordance with established laws and regulations. It was Manning that signed the NDAs.
Assange, not having signed NDAs, did not have the legal responsibility to safeguard the information.
That's the difference. One had legal responsibility to follow laws and regulations and the other didn't.
That is why demonstrating actual harm is not relevant to proving the crimes that Manning committed. Nor are Manning's intentions relevant.
If the court can demonstrate that Manning willingly broke the applicable laws and regulations that's all that is needed for a conviction of the specific charges.
Ducimus
11-02-11, 06:47 PM
Why do some people insist that unless the information leaked has already harmed someone that the information leak is harmless?
I don't understand that either. It's like they want what they want, everything else be damned unless smoking gun consequences jump up and smack them across the face like a wet trout.
We may never know who has been or may, in the future, be harmed by what Manning did.
Nope, and apparently the metaphor of allowing someone pieces of a puzzle to give a clearer picture of what their dealing with flew over heads as well. Though i didn't use that metaphor exactly, i implied the same in context. Again, it comes back to smoking gun consequences smacking them across the face.
Now, politically i sit on the fence. There are times i sound like a left leaning weenie, and there are times i sound like a hardcore neocon. This is a subject where i'll be wearing my neoconservative cap.....
Contrary to what some hippies around here think, you DO NOT have a right to every bit of information on the planet. Particuarly where the US Department of Defense is concerned.
Some documents from Wikileaks are more recent and are very interesting : for example, how Hillary Clinton ordered U.S. diplomats to spy on UN leaders.
During the Cold War, sovietic diplomats spied with the same manner. It was "regular", USSR with its bad methods was considered as Hell (and USA as Paradise).
USA considered (and still consider) themself as the defenders of freedom. But reality was (and is) more complex. So Wikileaks gives many informations how TODAY the "democratic" USA act like a totalitarian country.
There are more interesting informations in Wikileaks about US behavior with its allies : USA acts inside allied governments and often against them. By example, the US Embassy in Paris directly intervenes in the French interior policy with its "Minority Engagement Strategy". The US Ambassador, Charles H. Rivkin, wants to develop communautarism and a multicultural society in France and helps Muslim people to become political leaders in France (Tactic #5 inside the cable).
Please, imagine another situation : the French Ambasador in Washington meet Indian tribes, in order to help them to detect and to teach their future political leaders. So these choosen people will better defend their communauty and increase its influence in the American society ...
It would be totally inadmissible, considered as a real interference by the White House. And the French Ambassador would be expelled for "anti-Americanism" ...
-------------
PS
1) I forgot an important difference : Indian tribes are living in their country and are not invaders coming from oversea ...
2) Charles H. Rivkin, who wants to develop "communautarism and a multicultural society," could help these Indian tribes. They don't seem to be concerned by the "Affirmative action" ...
3) Fore more informations about Rivkin's project, please see here :
http://www.wikileaks.org/cable/2010/01/10PARIS58.html
Really edifying !!! Here no problem about US security, only American embezzlements against French security ...
http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2011/03/12/the-rivkin-project-how-globalism-uses-multiculturalism-to-subvert-sovereign-nations/
4) Thanks to Wikileaks and to Julian Assange, who remove the mask to the "friends".
5) With such Allies, France don't need any enemy !!!
Tribesman
11-02-11, 06:52 PM
I am primarily concerned with the crimes committed by Manning.
Yes, but the comments which started that little sideline in this topic were directed at the other party....all of which as Vendor pointed out is seperate from the hearing in London
Contrary to what some hippies around here think, you DO NOT have a right to every bit of information on the planet. Particuarly where the US Department of Defense is concerned.
It was the Dept.of State
TLAM Strike
11-02-11, 09:41 PM
Some documents from Wikileaks are more recent and are very interesting : for example, how Hillary Clinton ordered U.S. diplomats to spy on UN leaders.
During the Cold War, sovietic diplomats spied with the same manner. It was "regular", USSR with its bad methods was considered as Hell (and USA as Paradise).
USA considered (and still consider) themself as the defenders of freedom. But reality was (and is) more complex. So Wikileaks gives many informations how TODAY the "democratic" USA act like a totalitarian country. The US can spy on another country's diplomats however we like. So could the Soviets. That is part of the game as long as they don't lay a hand on them. Difference is that in the US if the CIA tried to stick a tracking device up your rear end you can tell them where they can shove it while you wave the bill of rights in their face (possibly with a shotgun in your other hand). While in the Soviet Union the KGB could shove whatever they like up your butt and all you could say was "thank you and Lenin Lives".
Spying is the 2nd oldest profession in the world. I expect espionage, but when you betray your own :nope:.
@Platapus you mean I have to say 'I am well hanged'? :rotfl2::rotfl2::rotfl2:
Buddahaid
11-02-11, 11:15 PM
Some documents from Wikileaks are more recent and are very interesting : for example, how Hillary Clinton ordered U.S. diplomats to spy on UN leaders.
During the Cold War, sovietic diplomats spied with the same manner. It was "regular", USSR with its bad methods was considered as Hell (and USA as Paradise).
USA considered (and still consider) themself as the defenders of freedom. But reality was (and is) more complex. So Wikileaks gives many informations how TODAY the "democratic" USA act like a totalitarian country.
There are more interesting informations in Wikileaks about US behavior with its allies : USA acts inside allied governments and often against them. By example, the US Embassy in Paris directly intervenes in the French interior policy with its "Minority Engagement Strategy". The US Ambassador, Charles H. Rivkin, wants to develop communautarism and a multicultural society in France and helps Muslim people to become political leaders in France (Tactic #5 inside the cable).
Please, imagine another situation : the French Ambasador in Washington meet Indian tribes, in order to help them to detect and to teach their future political leaders. So these choosen people will better defend their communauty and increase its influence in the American society ...
It would be totally inadmissible, considered as a real interference by the White House. And the French Ambassador would be expelled for "anti-Americanism" ...
-------------
PS
1) I forgot an important difference : Indian tribes are living in their country and are not invaders coming from oversea ...
2) Charles H. Rivkin, who wants to develop "communautarism and a multicultural society," could help these Indian tribes. They don't seem to be concerned by the "Affirmative action" ...
3) Fore more informations about Rivkin's project, please see here :
http://www.wikileaks.org/cable/2010/01/10PARIS58.html
Really edifying !!! Here no problem about US security, only American embezzlements against French security ...
http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2011/03/12/the-rivkin-project-how-globalism-uses-multiculturalism-to-subvert-sovereign-nations/
4) Thanks to Wikileaks and to Julian Assange, who remove the mask to the "friends".
5) With such Allies, France don't need any enemy !!!
Well we all know France is above all forms of political intrigue and never even bothers with foreign policy. And never needs any foreign aid for she is uniquely capable of handling all situations independently. Bon chance!
Catfish
11-03-11, 03:39 AM
I wonder what pressure can be applied to Sweden, about that case that certainly has nothing to do with Wikileaks ahem.
Who has the most advantages from Mr Assange being convicted for "rape" ?
Really it's the oldest human strategy to denounce someone socially or anyhow, before he can then rightfully be killed. It is all about justification to the public, always.
OpSec and all that applies to the military and a real war.
Does anyone really feel insecure or threatened because of terrorism ? Sry, not me. In the US ? In Texas ? Really ?
Ok, there IS action needed against planned terroristic acts, right.
But then we cannot tell the truth in democracies in the future, also about atrocities of our own governments, because we are in a forever war against terrorists, and nothing may be openly spoken about because it might betray "something" to "them" ?
In how far are we then different from the terrorists, or the Nazis back then ?
If you keep thinking that just sounds like "1984" only with an imaginary war .. and this again certainly justifies the use of drones killing innocent civilians for the "greater good". I have heard that before .. :hmmm:
"Power does what it wants", and it sure does not like to be presented naked, showing what it does to fool people and make it's own "truth".
There is a very bad tendency in the US, to be "reluctant" to say at least about really investigating about shortcomings, fails or even criminal acitivity of the CIA or the government, this would be just considered as unpatriotic - case closed.
My opinion is that it is unpatriotic to let power do what it wants, with a country that speaks of itself as free.
There are several counts on, Mr. Assange exercises regarding rape and sexual exploitation.
TLAM Strike
11-03-11, 09:52 AM
Does anyone really feel insecure or threatened because of terrorism ? Sry, not me. In the US ? In Texas ? Really ?
Sure there is no threat of terrorism in Texas... oh right...
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Hood_shooting)
Sure there is no threat of terrorism in Texas... oh right...
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Hood_shooting)You were kind, you did not give many examples of terror....
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/nov/02/julian-assange-options-narrow-judges
rape charge is rape charge, and wikileaks is wikileaks
Rape is rape, bareback is bareback.
But sometimes bareback is considered as rape, specially when it's necessary ...
In this case, there is a proverb : Give a dog a bad name and hang it !
http://hypervocal.com/news/2010/wikileaks-founderbareback-sex-lover-julian-assange-granted-bail-courtroom-cheers/
TLAM Strike
11-03-11, 04:23 PM
You were kind, you did not give many examples of terror....
There are extensive lists of examples. (http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/AmericanAttacks.htm)
Jimbuna
11-03-11, 07:07 PM
:hmmm:
There are extensive lists of examples. (http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/AmericanAttacks.htm) This is only a "very" small part of what the word terrorist stands for .... ya know ;)
TLAM Strike
11-04-11, 12:00 AM
This is only a "very" small part of what the word terrorist stands for .... ya know ;)
Yes I do. I just gave a speach on the internal structure of terrorist groups in one of my classes at college. :DL
Yes I do. I just gave a speach on the internal structure of terrorist groups in one of my classes at college. :DL Good news, therefore, analytical lecturer, :DL
High Court in London decided to Wikileaks founder Julian Assange be extradited to Sweden. A decision that his Swedish lawyer Björn Hurtig believes is excessive.MR.Hurtigs opinions are not completely unknown....:shucks:
Jimbuna
11-05-11, 06:14 AM
The quicker he's out of the UK the better :nope:
Yes it costs more money, and that we have to pay instead...:shifty:
Jimbuna
11-05-11, 01:56 PM
Yes it costs more money, and that we have to pay instead...:shifty:
I should imagine he'll be more at home in your locale :yep:
Yes, it was no understatement ... he would have engaged in cutting sheep, instead of forced sexual rituals, :shifty:
Jimbuna
11-05-11, 02:04 PM
Cutting sheep? :hmmm:
Tchocky
11-05-11, 02:04 PM
Sure there is no threat of terrorism in Texas... oh right...
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Hood_shooting)
Fair point, but I think what CatFish was getting at was the fear. I felt it when visiting the US in Feb 2002, I didn't feel it when in 2006-8. There's always a threat, everywhere, but that's no way to live/
Jimbuna
11-05-11, 02:30 PM
I flew into Texas late 2008 and was honestly amazed at the low level of security on view compared with that of Heathrow.
Yes,Heathrow have more "balls"
Jimbuna
11-05-11, 02:43 PM
More weapons on view for sure...not so sure about 'balls'
"Balls" stands for strength :hmmm:
Jimbuna
11-05-11, 02:54 PM
I know that...I just don't believe either the UK or US forces lack anything in that department.
I know that...I just don't believe either the UK or US forces lack anything in that department. :yawn:
Jimbuna
11-05-11, 03:09 PM
http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/9291/1019rx7.gif
Jimbuna
11-05-11, 03:16 PM
Prison bed....for Mr. Assange.
Prison bed....for Mr. Assange. Ok,right
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