Palestinians get Unesco seat as 107 vote in favour [Archive]

_dgn_

10-31-11, 11:44 AM

Unesco general conference president Katalin Bogyay announced the result

The UN cultural organisation has voted strongly in favour of membership for the Palestinians - a move opposed by Israel and the United States.

Of 173 countries voting, 107 were in favour, 14 opposed and 52 abstained.

The UN Security Council will vote next month on whether to grant the Palestinians full UN membership.

Yes, 14 countries were against, including :

- Germany
- Sweden
- Czech Republic
- Australia
- Canada
- United States
- Israël

Remember their name !!!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-15518173

Jimbuna

10-31-11, 11:56 AM

_dgn_

10-31-11, 12:09 PM

May I ask why?

In order to boycott their products, I think !!!

soopaman2

10-31-11, 12:10 PM

Yes, 14 countries were against, including :

- Germany
- Sweden
- Czech Republic
- Australia
- Canada
- United States
- Israël

Remember their name !!!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-15518173

You expected different?

USA is Isreals daddy, Canada does the minimum to keep America happy. (kinda like putting up with your neighbors loud music, because he is a nice guy and always loans you his lawnmower)
Kinda a bond between GBs proud and noble offspring, I guess:yeah:
I'm surprised Britain isn't on there. Israel was there idea, we are just stuck with the bill.

Euros are just closer to it, and don't try to be politically correct, like we do.

Seriously what good can come from it. All I see are American corpses 20 years down the line.

_dgn_

10-31-11, 12:26 PM

You expected different?

No !

USA is Isreals daddy

Not exactly. Israel is the brain, USA the powerful body. Or another image : Israel on the US shoulders ...

http://images.imagehotel.net/cn5jlrm7o0.jpg (http://www.imagehotel.net/?from=cn5jlrm7o0.jpg)

soopaman2

10-31-11, 12:29 PM

No !

Not exactly. Israel is the brain, USA the powerful body. Or another image : Israel on the US shoulders ...

http://images.imagehotel.net/cn5jlrm7o0.jpg (http://www.imagehotel.net/?from=cn5jlrm7o0.jpg)

I can't disagree as world events don't allow any proof to the contrary.:)

Sailor Steve

10-31-11, 12:29 PM

Personally I think I'll boycott the countries that voted for it.

Jimbuna

10-31-11, 12:39 PM

So are the Palestinians going to replace the 20% loss of funding if the US withdraws their financial support?

10-31-11, 12:43 PM

In order to boycott their products, I think !!!

YEAH!!!

soopaman2

10-31-11, 12:46 PM

Personally I think I'll boycott the countries that voted for it.

I am kinda conflicted. Is that possible?

Deep down, as much as i hate the whole modern crusade stuff.

I feel it would only give some kind of legitimacy to them disrupting the Isaelis. Even rallying "jihadists" from other countries to help. (I think I agree)

They (Israel) are there, they are happy, they are prospering the arabs feel it is some kinda "crusade" thing IMHO.

At the same time, who are we to question their legitimacy? They got the worlds attention.

But being a skeptic
Was this decision made to protect Israel?
I think that was the major function of it, and as much as I dislike the culture, I will say I feel a certain compassion towards them, and how their humanity is minimized due to the zealots that lead them. (the Palistinians)

The whole thing is frustrating to me, I just wish I can figure out which party is the "agressors". Both sides hands are filthy with blood.

Maybe I am just jaded, thinking people can be tolerant of other beliefs. We can't even do that here in America.;)

_dgn_

10-31-11, 01:05 PM

So are the Palestinians going to replace the 20% loss of funding if the US withdraws their financial support?

The usual blackmail : if you are not with me, I will punish you ... No more money !!!

Sailor Steve

10-31-11, 01:22 PM

I am kinda conflicted. Is that possible?
Don't know, don't care. I was tweaking the other guys. The Palestinians never wanted autonomy under the Jordanians. This thing started with Arafat, and I believe it really is just one more way to "get Israel".

That said, I have less problems with Israel or the Palestinians as I do with all the outsiders, us included, who feel the need to interfere. The UN is a joke, and this is one of their funniest.

Penguin

10-31-11, 01:24 PM

In order to boycott their products, I think !!!

So do you also boycott countries in which Palestinians have no citizen's rights, like Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, etc, basically all Arab countries?

Or is it because of minority rights? - where is the Basque state?
because of state terrorism? - who did sink the Rainbow warrior again?
Because of the suppression and unjustified killing of civilians? Algeria War?

Yes, let's boycott France!

No !
Not exactly. Israel is the brain, USA the powerful body. Or another image : Israel on the US shoulders ...

As I stated here in my reply to soopaman: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1770375&postcount=92
Israel does a lousy job in controlling the US, at least in UN resolutions about Palestine:
To relief you of the trouble to click the links, here are they again:
List of resolutions against Israel: http://www.regelsberger.at/privatarchiv/Israel_UN.html
List of Security Council Resolutions on Palestine:
http://www.un.int/wcm/content/site/palestine/cache/offonce/pid/11886

funny, all these would not have passed if the USA didn't vote for it or at least stayed neutral

So can you elaborate how Israel controls the USA?

Hottentot

10-31-11, 02:01 PM

That was a costly vote for Unesco, says the Daily Mail (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2055710/US-withhold-80m-UNESCO-fund-approves-Palestines-membership-request.html) (and various other news sources as well, but this was the first English source I found).

Funny. I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand I understand the decision is based on the law and it's their money, so they can do whatever they please with it. On the other hand it sounds like a "you voted wrong" situation. When you alone hold 22% of some organisation's funding, you also automatically hold some power over it, like it or not. I hope it doesn't come down to seeing exactly how much power that is.

So can you elaborate how Israel controls the USA?

Trough the drinking water. Duh.

August

10-31-11, 03:00 PM

Personally I think I'll boycott the countries that voted for it.

That'd be France. Now you remember that name... :up:

But now that I think of it does France actually export anything?

Sailor Steve

10-31-11, 03:03 PM

Simple. I won't eat French Fries. I won't French Kiss. I won't look at pictures of French women. I won't...

Waitaminute. This isn't turning out like I thought.

10-31-11, 03:13 PM

That'd be France. Now you remember that name... :up:

But now that I think of it does France actually export anything?

Its french conspiracy to push sales of green cheese.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2082/2271582110_a975a86e3b.jpg

Platapus

10-31-11, 04:38 PM

I still don't understand why membership in the UN is not up to the UN General Assembly.

Well I do understand but I don't agree with it.

Jimbuna

10-31-11, 05:05 PM

That'd be France. Now you remember that name... :up:

But now that I think of it does France actually export anything?

White cotton handkerchief's I believe :DL

Skybird

10-31-11, 05:34 PM

Once again the UN shows to be as hilarious and untrustworthy as possible. By its own statutes and rules the UNESCO is not legitimised to accept anyone/anything as a full member that has no unsidposuted status as a soverign nation. What a spoverign nation is, usually has four criterions that most political theoretists agree on: there must be

1- a closed social communal cultural entity (=population, people) claiming to be a nation
2- a clearly defined terrain that said grouip claims to be its national soil
3- sovereign ruling over and control of that soil
4- and international acceptance and recognition

The Palestinians have 1), they have a roadmap to be negotiated for 2) but refuse to do so, they definitely do not fulfill 3), and 4) is only partially fulfilled as well since some nations accept them as a nation, others don't, but formally the UN has not recongised them as a nation for the time being.

So the Palestinians by the statutes of the UNESCO are not qualified to demand full membership in the UNESCO, and the UNESCO does not have the legal right to recognise them as full members.

But hey, it is the UN. Every bad hallucination is possible to turn into reality here - especially on behalf of pro-Islamic distortions.

I like that Obama Big Mouth, who in the not so long ago past said he would solve the Middle East issues within one year, is brought into a Catch-22 by this.

I'm surpised by the Germans. I would have sworn that German foreign caspar Guido Westerwave would have followed the French example at the very last second - and jump onto the Palestinian rodeo cow.

I wish we would also stop sinking our money into the UNESCO. But that would hurt our tourist UNESCO titles, which are so very dear to us, and it also is not kind behaviour.

CaptainHaplo

10-31-11, 08:48 PM

But now that I think of it does France actually export anything?

Unfortunately - yes. Women who neither bathe nor shave. It seems they all moved to the region where I live and have taught the local women the same "earthy" traditions...

BOOOOOO!

August

10-31-11, 11:19 PM

Unfortunately - yes. Women who neither bathe nor shave. It seems they all moved to the region where I live and have taught the local women the same "earthy" traditions...

BOOOOOO!

Eh, they clean up well enough. If you want real female funkyness nothing beats a good old American hippy chick.

Tribesman

11-01-11, 04:05 AM

The Palestinians never wanted autonomy under the Jordanians. This thing started with Arafat, and I believe it really is just one more way to "get Israel".

You should know well enough that that simply isn't true Steve. Palestinians issues with the Hashemites taking over started the day Abdullah didn't go to Damascus.

papa_smurf

11-01-11, 04:55 AM

I love how the US boycotted this, and still want a peaceful solution in the region ending (as they see) in a two state situation. This shows, yet again, the US do not want peace in the region.

11-01-11, 06:17 AM

I love how the US boycotted this, and still want a peaceful solution in the region ending (as they see) in a two state situation. This shows, yet again, the US do not want peace in the region.

Yes it is as ,they, see it.
Why should it not be as the other ,they, see it.

Skybird

11-01-11, 06:43 AM

Superb German comment from Der Tagesspiegel: Palästina rast mit Volldampf in die Sackgasse. (http://www.tagesspiegel.de/meinung/palaestina-rast-mit-volldampf-in-die-sackgasse/5783052.html)

Jimbuna

11-01-11, 07:02 AM

Superb German comment from Der Tagesspiegel: Palästina rast mit Volldampf in die Sackgasse. (http://www.tagesspiegel.de/meinung/palaestina-rast-mit-volldampf-in-die-sackgasse/5783052.html)

Tis in German...nein sprechen Deutsches :hmmm:

August

11-01-11, 07:07 AM

Skybird

11-01-11, 07:39 AM

Tis in German...nein sprechen Deutsches :hmmm:
Yes, and I meant to indicate that it is in German when saying "German comment". Maybe I picked a wrong phrasing to indicate that. Sorry.

Takeda Shingen

11-01-11, 07:43 AM

Jimbuna

11-01-11, 07:59 AM

Yes, and I meant to indicate that it is in German when saying "German comment". Maybe I picked a wrong phrasing to indicate that. Sorry.

No problem Sky and certainly no need for an apology.

Could you possibly post a little detail on the articles contents because I'd certainly be interested?

Tribesman

11-01-11, 08:13 AM

Interesting, given that even the European Union classifies Hamas as a terrorist organization. Perhaps the French believe that the enemies of peace should be placated at all costs. Wouldn't be the first time they've thrown in the towel.
How are your governments negociations with the Taliban going? Have your politicians succesflly lobbied for the MEK to reopen their offices in America and get access to their terrorist bank accounts again?
What is interesting is the position the PLO got shoved into and how their deal has left the western nations in a diplomatic fix which is largely of their own making.

papa_smurf

11-01-11, 08:27 AM

If this is the response for Palestine joining UNESCO, what will happen if they get a seat in the UN proper?

Tribesman

11-01-11, 08:31 AM

If this is the response for Palestine joining UNESCO, what will happen if they get a seat in the UN proper?
Thats the funny part, murder and maim and the money still flows, ask for a vote and its a silly hissy fit you get.

Skybird

11-01-11, 09:27 AM

No problem Sky and certainly no need for an apology.

Could you possibly post a little detail on the articles contents because I'd certainly be interested?
Headline loosely translates into "Palestinians storm into dead end with pedal pressed to the metal". Article says that what separates poltical pros from wannabes just having good intentions is that they are aware of the longterm consequences, and these are that many projects also supported by the UNESCO and that maybe are more important, cannot be payed for anymore - which will sooner or later backfire against the Palestinians. It says also that it was stupid to bring Obama into a situation where he needed to show strength due to legal obligations he cannot escape, althiugh he probbaly does not want it, and that Europe showed a display of a union ripped apart and being totally impotent to achieve anything in the Middle East. Finally it relativizes the gains made by the Palestinians, since effectively they haven't gained anything, and also have given up the option to imply diplomatic pressure on Israel by threatening what they did right now. Now that they have done it, they cannot threaten with it anymore. Problem is: doing it did not gain them anything. The threat maybe was not too potent anyway, but it was more than what they got now. If they would have accepted a status of observer, like the EU accepts at the UNESCO, they also would have gotten what they had gotten now - but without the likely future scenario that those who will suffer due to the US not paying anymore sooner or later will remember whom they have to thank for for their loss.

I hope the US does not stop poayments just for some months, but insist on stopping them for as long as the UNESCO reverses its (illegal anyhow) decision. The US should not change its legislation to allow itself to pay anymore. I wqish my country would do something similiar. But that chance is almost zero.

Skybird

11-01-11, 09:31 AM

they get a seat in the UN proper?
US veto in SC. No chance.

No US politician wanting to become - and stay as - president can afford to piss American Jewish voters that much - by allowing Palestinian UN membership and state recognition without Israel's agreement. Also, it is a strong Jewish lobby in America.

Takeda Shingen

11-01-11, 10:20 AM

How are your governments negociations with the Taliban going? Have your politicians succesflly lobbied for the MEK to reopen their offices in America and get access to their terrorist bank accounts again?
What is interesting is the position the PLO got shoved into and how their deal has left the western nations in a diplomatic fix which is largely of their own making.

Part of me wants to indulge in some visceral justice by pointing out your numerous spelling errors in an effort to subject you to a degree of the cheap shots that you take at others. However, as a moderator, I have to be above that. Responsibilities of the position and all.

That being said, I will agree with the central tenant of your argument, regardless of how crudely stated it may be. That is, all governments have dealings with those that probably shouldn't be dealt with at all. This only weakens the stance of the original poster in expressing moral outrage over those who have not supported his nation's 'bad guys' of choice.

11-01-11, 11:00 AM

US veto in SC. No chance.

No US politician wanting to become - and stay as - president can afford to piss American Jewish voters that much - by allowing Palestinian UN membership and state recognition without Israel's agreement. Also, it is a strong Jewish lobby in America.

I'm not sure about it because Jewish community is divided very much about this whole issue too-just like Israelis.
It might be different if American Jews had an impression that USA is abandoning Israel as an ally all together due to total shift in policy... i think.

August

11-01-11, 11:20 AM

US veto in SC. No chance.

No US politician wanting to become - and stay as - president can afford to piss American Jewish voters that much - by allowing Palestinian UN membership and state recognition without Israel's agreement. Also, it is a strong Jewish lobby in America.

While all this may be true I should point out that American support for Israel does not come from Jewish-Americans alone as that statement implies.

Skybird

11-01-11, 12:05 PM

While all this may be true I should point out that American support for Israel does not come from Jewish-Americans alone as that statement implies.
It doesn't "imply" that at all. ;) I just say there is a strong Jewish lobby, and a huge Jewish voter-base. I am aware that many non-Jewish Americans also support the current way of going.

---

On the UNESCO decision, something else: there are the treaties of Oslo which explicitly have ruled that neither side should create facts changing the status of a Palestinian state unilaterally as long as this state does not result from mutal agreement in negotiations. This Oslo treaty, whatever it is worth, is being violated by the Palestinians as well, obviously.

11-01-11, 01:02 PM

On the UNESCO decision, something else: there are the treaties of Oslo which explicitly have ruled that neither side should create facts changing the status of a Palestinian state unilaterally as long as this state does not result from mutal agreement in negotiations. This Oslo treaty, whatever it is worth, is being violated by the Palestinians as well, obviously.

It is totally pointless argument.
According to Abu Mazen hamas is just slightly right wing party in Palestinian politics.
Judging by the amount of hamas flags waved after Shalit deal(waving hamas flags had been illegal in PA until recently due to PR)i have my doubts (and always had)what will come next when Abu Mazen is gone.
Some peacemakers say that Abu Mazen is last pragmatic leader left in PA- i wonder how this is supposed to make me feel better.
The popularity of extremists is always there but is kept under the hood to create false impression of peaceful society fighting for its rights by legit means.
It apparently works very well.

I'm absolutely certain West bank can easily become second Gaza but with small difference of nice view from the hills above of whole central Israel -just few short miles away.
Its quite enough that whole southern Israel is under daily bombardment every time some "unlawful freedom fighter" wakes up with bad mood in the morning.

That's main reason why all this political mumbo jumbo or who is right or historically wrong is totally meaningless to me besides pure historical learning value.
When Palestinians become civilised society(i know i'm generalising) ill be more than happy to have them as neighbours.

Carry on this theological discussion......

August

11-01-11, 02:16 PM

It doesn't "imply" that at all. ;) I just say there is a strong Jewish lobby, and a huge Jewish voter-base. I am aware that many non-Jewish Americans also support the current way of going.

I'm not disagreeing with you Skybird, just pointing out that our support of Israel does not exist because of Jewish lobbying, it is multi-ethnic.

Jimbuna

11-01-11, 03:58 PM

Headline loosely translates into "Palestinians storm into dead end with pedal pressed to the metal". Article says that what separates poltical pros from wannabes just having good intentions is that they are aware of the longterm consequences, and these are that many projects also supported by the UNESCO and that maybe are more important, cannot be payed for anymore - which will sooner or later backfire against the Palestinians. It says also that it was stupid to bring Obama into a situation where he needed to show strength due to legal obligations he cannot escape, althiugh he probbaly does not want it, and that Europe showed a display of a union ripped apart and being totally impotent to achieve anything in the Middle East. Finally it relativizes the gains made by the Palestinians, since effectively they haven't gained anything, and also have given up the option to imply diplomatic pressure on Israel by threatening what they did right now. Now that they have done it, they cannot threaten with it anymore. Problem is: doing it did not gain them anything. The threat maybe was not too potent anyway, but it was more than what they got now. If they would have accepted a status of observer, like the EU accepts at the UNESCO, they also would have gotten what they had gotten now - but without the likely future scenario that those who will suffer due to the US not paying anymore sooner or later will remember whom they have to thank for for their loss.

I hope the US does not stop poayments just for some months, but insist on stopping them for as long as the UNESCO reverses its (illegal anyhow) decision. The US should not change its legislation to allow itself to pay anymore. I wqish my country would do something similiar. But that chance is almost zero.

Cheers Sky :up:

I'm not disagreeing with you Skybird, just pointing out that our support of Israel does not exist because of Jewish lobbying, it is multi-ethnic.

Much the same as here in the UK but I'm unaware of why we abstained :hmmm:

Skybird

11-01-11, 04:14 PM

I'm not disagreeing with you Skybird, just pointing out that our support of Israel does not exist because of Jewish lobbying, it is multi-ethnic.
I completely understand what you mean, I just do not accept when you said I "implied" that it is only due to Jewish lobbying that american opinion is like this or that. I think Jewish lobbying and the non-lobbied opinion of that voting group as well is a primary factor and a very important motive for american political acting, and I think it is such a strong one that no politicians can afford to ignore it, but I did not say (=imply) I think it is the decisive and only drive behind things.

;)

Tribesman

11-01-11, 04:37 PM

I hope the US does not stop poayments just for some months, but insist on stopping them for as long as the UNESCO reverses its (illegal anyhow) decision.
"Illegal anyhow" under some rubbish skybird invented and applied.
Another case of the special skybird invisible ink lines where he is trying to blur 2 into 3

Nice to see the Israeli response though, another announcement of further expansion of illegal settlements.

Much the same as here in the UK but I'm unaware of why we abstained
It was the easiest option, there was little or no chance of stopping the needed two thirds in the vote needed for a place which doesn't have full UN member status but does have international relations.
The Palestinian plan appears the same as the other recent ones, affect nothing really on the ground but humiliate those countries which vote against it. It is building up to a point where some of the quartet will be seriously damaged in their chosen role as intermediaries

August

11-01-11, 04:44 PM

I completely understand what you mean, I just do not accept when you said I "implied" that it is only due to Jewish lobbying that american opinion is like this or that. I think Jewish lobbying and the non-lobbied opinion of that voting group as well is a primary factor and a very important motive for american political acting, and I think it is such a strong one that no politicians can afford to ignore it, but I did not say (=imply) I think it is the decisive and only drive behind things.

;)

My fault. I didn't mean to imply that your implication was deliberate. :DL

Kazuaki Shimazaki II

11-02-11, 10:12 AM

Skybird

11-02-11, 10:30 AM

Might be true legally, but morally this is a ridiculously unfair treaty in such a case. By your description, it simply says that Israel can deny Palestinians independence as long as it wants.

No wonder the Palestinians are resorting to bombing attacks...
The Palestinians agreed to and signed the treaty of Oslo.

And do you want to say that arbitrary, indistinctive murder of random civilians in attacks designed to randomly kill as many non-combattants as possible in attacks aimed at non-combattants in the first, can be excused? "You give us our will, else...!" ??

I tell you what, the Palestinians simply are no clever people and no clever faction. They pick the wrong choices time and again, throughout the past decades. And everybody in the Arab world knows that they are politically impotent, untrustworthy, and notorious trouble-makers, and that is the reason why not even anyone in the Arab worlds really wants to deal with them. They get instrumentalised for other purposes, but do not be mistaken: in Arab nations, and in Persia as well, in reality the Palestinians simply are pariahs. And that is a reputation they are responsible for all by themselves. I saw this basic attitude towards them in Algeria. In Libya. in Turkey. In Egypt. In persian Iran anyway. And for the short days I was moving through there: in Jordan as well (what a surprise, after the stunt they tried there). Hell, even in distant Pakistan they were on their guard against the Palestinians!

Those Arab Muslim brothers and sisters all just one big happy family - ha! Big words, hot air, nothing more. In those places they become drunk and stoned of pathetic words, the more pathos the better. And we are lucky that it is that way. Not to imagine what our position would be if they really would be that united as they claim they are. A united Islamic world acting in coordination: that is a nightmare vision I have.

On a side-note, some Saudi terror-prince has set up rewards of 1 million dollars for kidnapping Israeli soldiers, I read today. That is also one of these helpful things. The next king that is rumoured to be nominated for office, also is said to be an extremely medieval, women-hostile fundamentalism-hardliner. And Germany and America arming them up like crazy, and Europe still affording to depend on Saudi oil. Fan-tas-tic.