Are you part of the 53%?

[MothBalls]

There's a new movement in America called "We are the 53%" http://the53.tumblr.com/

Few other news links about them:
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20118541-503544.html
http://money.cnn.com/2011/10/26/news/economy/occupy_wall_street_backlash/index.htm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/oct/19/american-right-we-are-the-53
As always with American media, the stories have two sides, depends if you're left/right.

A lot of the stories on the groups website, which will only publish it if you write it and take a picture (not sure why) sound like many of the people I know. My story is the same as many of them.

Grew up poor, worked my ass off, educated myself, worked hard all of my life, paid my bills, paid my taxes, raised a family, put 2 through college, had ups and downs, good times and bad times. Welcome to America, it's the same story that happens for 53% of us.

I happen to be in the 53% and fundamentally agree with the movement. The reason I agree is simple, most of my friends and people I know aren't really affected by what's been happening with the economy. They work hard, pay their bills, pay their taxes, and if out of work spend 50 hours a week looking for work until they find it. The people who are affected, like my neighbor who told me he wasn't looking for a job yet because "my unemployment hasn't run out yet", are the ones crying the loudest right now. Maybe in his spare time, while I subsidize his unemployment, he can go join the OWS group and protest.

My favorite posting on the 53% website;

"Blaming Wall Street for your financial shortcomings is like blaming Beyonce for your inability to sing."

So are you part of the 53%? What says you?

[mookiemookie]

So someone that works 60 hours a week should be just scraping by? Borrowing money from your parents to pay for school so that you don't go bankrupt (in a system where bankruptcy doesn't disgorge student loan debt) should be the standard that people need to live up to? These "53%" have never heard of the payroll, sales or excise taxes that the rest of those that supposedly "don't pay taxes" you know, um, actually pay?

Guess what, you ignorant dips? http://actuallyyourethe47percent.tumblr.com/

[CCIP]

I actually think both the 53% and the 99% (and the 1% and every other %) are an utterly moronic sloganization campaign that instantly takes away all credibility from these movements. The moment you start speaking for a % number, you're actually delegating your right to speak for yourself. And that's a terrible waste.

So, I delegate my further input on this matter to Sailor Steve's forum signature! :D (no, really, it's getting at exactly my problem with this whole % thing)

[geetrue]

I am 99.9% sure that someone is wrong on this percent stuff

It's like so easy to arrest the organizers and hold them personaly responcible for no viloence in a peaceful assembly.

Put up a bond and be willing to pay for any expenses your rally causes

[Krauter]

Did you know that 87% of facts, statistics and percentages on the Internet are made up?

[MothBalls]

These "53%" have never heard of the payroll, sales or excise taxes that the rest of those that supposedly "don't pay taxes" you know, um, actually pay?

Guess what, you ignorant dips? http://actuallyyourethe47percent.tumblr.com/

You're missing the point, for one. Two, you picked the wrong person to tell they don't know about paying taxes, I own a small business. Might not be a fortune 500 company, but I've had over 20 people on my payroll at one time. So don't even begin to tell me about what you think I know or don't know, especially when it comes to paying taxes. Please don't get me started.

There's a lot of things I'm unhappy with. My unemployment insurance premium went up 8% to cover an extension for the unemployed. My answer to that is "if you pay people to not work, they won't". Want to help them get jobs? Quit cutting the checks, trust me, they'll look harder.

Health insurance, bailouts, economics, sure a lot of things suck right now. But don't blame 1% of the population for all of it. There are many other factors.

I actually think both the 53% and the 99% (and the 1% and every other %) are an utterly moronic sloganization campaign that instantly takes away all credibility from these movements. The moment you start speaking for a % number, you're actually delegating your right to speak for yourself. And that's a terrible waste.

So, I delegate my further input on this matter to Sailor Steve's forum signature! :D (no, really, it's getting at exactly my problem with this whole % thing)

See that's the point. The 99% who claim to be representing 99% of the population, aren't. The 53% group are there to tell them don't speak for me (us) because I've worked my ass off to get to where I am and I don't blame anyone for it. Don't blame your lot in life on the 1%. Times are tough, life sucks, drive on.

Did you know that 87% of facts, statistics and percentages on the Internet are made up?

I think you just made that up, cause I read it was more like 78%.

[Tribesman]

This is another Joe not the plumber happening where this "mr. I work 3 jobs" turned out to be a Republican journalist working one actual job but calling it three.

[AVGWarhawk]

Who is this Joe the Plumber?

[JU_88]

The top 1 % are not neccesarily evil greedy monsters. look at the charity work of Bill gates for example.
If you offered a person who despise the 1% a chance to join the 1% I doubt many would refuse based on principle.

The wall street protesters are not united in their beliefs, some are just anti captialst jumping on the band wagon, others are lazy freeloaders.
But the 56% are sorley mistaken if thats what they think the protest is about.

Alot of the portesters are genuinely concerned and about the amount of power and influence that has now been aquired by banks and co-operations, and that it had gone too far- which it has.
There is nothing wrong with having a successful enterprise or business. the problem is that many of them are now above the law and are infulencing goverment legistlation with cash - not ballots.

The top banks now have more power, wealth and influence than the US government itself.
Some thing is horribly wrong with that. in any country the Goverment should be at the very top of the heirachy, in America they are not.

They sold you out, the bail outs are proof of this - and now some people are angry.

[Tribesman]

Who is this Joe the Plumber?

A journalist called Erickson

[Platapus]

the problem is that many of them are now above the law and are infulencing goverment legistlation with cash - not ballots.

The top banks now have more power, wealth and influence than the US government itself.

Has there ever been a time when this was not true in the US? Being a student of 19th century history, I would say this has been pretty common for about 200 years. Compared with the 19th century, things are actually a little better now than back then.

Not that I am happy with this situation. But I wanted to point out that this is hardly a new situation.

I think I am part of the 99.9% who wish for the best, prepare for the worst and just keep on working hard every day getting through life.

[Skybird]

A society ignoring its internal deficits and injustice for mythologic and ideologic motives maybe does not even deserve healing and improvement.

Report from the Congressional Budget Office (http://www.cbo.gov/doc.cfm?index=12485), found it yesterday, coincidentally.

And news from Britain's IDS (Incomes Data Service) (http://www.incomesdata.co.uk/) says that last year the CEOs and board members of the big economy players and major companies increased their income by around 50%, while the workers and the backbone of the working force saw increases of 2.5% only - with an inflation rate of 5%, which in fact means a decline in spending and consuming power of the average loan. Read this yesterday, and again today. They looked at the 100 biggest British companies of their stock index.

Not much different in Germany. More and more wealth gets accumulated in a smaller and smaller group at the top, the scissor's gap is widening. It'S the same everywhere in the West, it seems,. and probably beyond the West. Even in Greece the ultrarich Greeks still are not merged into the emergency plan to save Greece, and still are allowed to avoid taxes on massive scale, betraying the people.

[AVGWarhawk]

A journalist called Erickson

I was pulling your leg.

[JU_88]

Has there ever been a time when this was not true in the US? Being a student of 19th century history, I would say this has been pretty common for about 200 years. Compared with the 19th century, things are actually a little better now than back then.

Not that I am happy with this situation. But I wanted to point out that this is hardly a new situation.

I think I am part of the 99.9% who wish for the best, prepare for the worst and just keep on working hard every day getting through life.

It's not a new situation, lobbying has been around forever, but it's gotten worse and its gone too far.
These guys have more control over legislation than the American people do, that's not how American/western democracy is supposed to work.
The people vote in the reps or the dems, but the co-orperations can buy the policies they want off both parties, makes little difference to them which one is at the helm. Needless to say that their needs come before yours. It's the same here in the UK..
Our democracies that our fathers and grandfathers have fought to protect have become a bit if a joke now. its pretty depressing.

[mookiemookie]

Two, you picked the wrong person to tell they don't know about paying taxes, I was addressing the folks on that website, and not you. I apologize for being unclear on that. I try not to personally attack any member here. Again, that is my mistake.

The fact remains though, that this "47% of people don't pay taxes" meme is a blatant misrepresentation of the situation. Everyone who legally earns money or purchases anything in this country pays taxes.

There's a lot of things I'm unhappy with. My unemployment insurance premium went up 8% to cover an extension for the unemployed. My answer to that is "if you pay people to not work, they won't". Want to help them get jobs? Quit cutting the checks, trust me, they'll look harder. By and large, most people on unemployment would rather be employed. And cutting off unemployment benefits to everyone would be an unmitigated disaster. You think the economy is bad now? Think about how bad it would be with people starving and dying in the streets. Think of the crime rates that would skyrocket as people turned to robbery as a means of survival. Think about the loss in GDP that would occur if all a sudden every person receiving unemployment benefits suddenly had no money to spend. Unemployment is a form of social insurance that we have deemed as preferable to the situation I've just described.

Health insurance, bailouts, economics, sure a lot of things suck right now. But don't blame 1% of the population for all of it. There are many other factors. This is true. But the current economic climate was caused in large part by the excesses of Wall Street.

See that's the point. The 99% who claim to be representing 99% of the population, aren't. Nobody is claiming that at all. You've completely misunderstood. You are the 99% unless your income puts you in the top 1% of wage earners in this country. Like it or not, you're the 99%.

The 53% group are there to tell them don't speak for me (us) because I've worked my ass off to get to where I am and I don't blame anyone for it. Don't blame your lot in life on the 1%. Times are tough, life sucks, drive on. All the 99% movement is doing is drawing attention to the fact that the game is rigged and the deck is stacked against those that are trying to "drive on."


My favorite posting on the 53% website;

"Blaming Wall Street for your financial shortcomings is like blaming Beyonce for your inability to sing."



And my favorite response:

"No dude, it's more like if Beyonce's vocal chords only still worked cause the federal government gave her trillions of dollars for throat surgery and then a few months after that she went on TV and was like "Wow, why are so many people angry about this? You must all be jealous. You guys should have spent more time practicing singing.""

[Krauter]

I think you just made that up, cause I read it was more like 78%.

How do I know you're telling the truth? How do I know if I'm telling the truth!? It's a conspiracy I tells ya!

[JU_88]

A society ignoring its internal deficits and injustice for mythologic and ideologic motives maybe does not even deserve healing and improvement.

Report from the Congressional Budget Office (http://www.cbo.gov/doc.cfm?index=12485), found it yesterday, coincidentally.

And news from Britain's IDS (Incomes Data Service) (http://www.incomesdata.co.uk/) says that last year the CEOs and board members of the big economy players and major companies increased their income by around 50%, while the workers and the backbone of the working force saw increases of 2.5% only - with an inflation rate of 5%, which in fact means a decline in spending and consuming power of the average loan. Read this yesterday, and again today. They looked at the 100 biggest British companies of their stock index.

Not much different in Germany. More and more wealth gets accumulated in a smaller and smaller group at the top, the scissor's gap is widening. It'S the same everywhere in the West, it seems,. and probably beyond the West. Even in Greece the ultrarich Greeks still are not merged into the emergency plan to save Greece, and still are allowed to avoid taxes on massive scale, betraying the people.

Yup Wasn't is Kissenger who said:
"He who controls the Money, controls the world"

[joea]

Did you know that 87% of facts, statistics and percentages on the Internet are made up?

http://www.icanhasinternets.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Internet-Quotes.jpg

[soopaman2]

I work my butt off, pay taxes and do not mind.

Taxes are a part of living in a civilized society..

How about you all stop mocking the Wall Street protestors (most of which are college educated and will contibute to our society eventually) and share some of that venom for fat welfare queens driving a mercedes benz.

Have more kids, get more bucks...I'm sure somehow it is Obamas fault still right? Yeah, screw him..

How about the illegal aliens that draw from the SSI, welfare, WIC and food stamp rolls that work under the table in most cases? (zero taxes/wealth movement)

This thread reeks of partisanship...You are part of the problem.:down:

[Krauter]

http://www.icanhasinternets.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Internet-Quotes.jpg

There's something not quite right with that...

But I guess if it's from Abraham Lincoln it must be true :D

[Sailor Steve]

There's something not quite right with that...

But I guess if it's from Abraham Lincoln it must be true :D
On the other hand someone posted this one several weeks ago:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a325/SailorSteve/TroubleWithQuotes.jpg

[Onkel Neal]

The top 1 % are not neccesarily evil greedy monsters. look at the charity work of Bill gates for example.
If you offered a person who despise the 1% a chance to join the 1% I doubt many would refuse based on principle.

The wall street protesters are not united in their beliefs, some are just anti captialst jumping on the band wagon, others are lazy freeloaders.
But the 56% are sorley mistaken if thats what they think the protest is about.

Alot of the portesters are genuinely concerned and about the amount of power and influence that has now been aquired by banks and co-operations, and that it had gone too far- which it has.
There is nothing wrong with having a successful enterprise or business. the problem is that many of them are now above the law and are infulencing goverment legistlation with cash - not ballots.

The top banks now have more power, wealth and influence than the US government itself.
Some thing is horribly wrong with that. in any country the Goverment should be at the very top of the heirachy, in America they are not.

They sold you out, the bail outs are proof of this - and now some people are angry.

I like the way you put this. :salute:

I just wish we could settle this whole tax debate with everyone pays a flat percentage on their income, period. No deductions, no write offs, no wiggle room. Just 12% comes out and goes to Washington. Then we would all be part of the 99% and no one could say "He isn't doing as much as me" or "I'm doing more than him".

Each man gets one vote, each man should pay the same percentage in taxes.

[AVGWarhawk]

I like the way you put this. :salute:

I just wish we could settle this whole tax debate with everyone pays a flat percentage on their income, period. No deductions, no write offs, no wiggle room. Just 12% comes out and goes to Washington. Then we would all be part of the 99% and no one could say "He isn't doing as much as me" or "I'm doing more than him".

Each man gets one vote, each man should pay the same percentage in taxes.


Such notions have been presented and are currently presented only to be shot down in a ball of flames. No matter what is attempted there will always be one group that will cry foul. It simply sucks when 47 some odd % do not pay a lick of taxes but enjoy the benefits.

[soopaman2]

I like the way you put this. :salute:

I just wish we could settle this whole tax debate with everyone pays a flat percentage on their income, period. No deductions, no write offs, no wiggle room. Just 12% comes out and goes to Washington. Then we would all be part of the 99% and no one could say "He isn't doing as much as me" or "I'm doing more than him".

Each man gets one vote, each man should pay the same percentage in taxes.

Mr. Stevens, that is common sense. (shame on you sir)
As Mr. Warhawk stated it gets shot down in a ball of flames every time. (even if it is IMHO the best solution)

We need something more complicated and less understandable to the layman. That way the ol IRS can continue to fleece suckers who can't (afford) hire accountants to help them cheat.

[mookiemookie]

The top 1 % are not neccesarily evil greedy monsters. look at the charity work of Bill gates for example.
If you offered a person who despise the 1% a chance to join the 1% I doubt many would refuse based on principle.

The wall street protesters are not united in their beliefs, some are just anti captialst jumping on the band wagon, others are lazy freeloaders.
But the 56% are sorley mistaken if thats what they think the protest is about.

Alot of the portesters are genuinely concerned and about the amount of power and influence that has now been aquired by banks and co-operations, and that it had gone too far- which it has.
There is nothing wrong with having a successful enterprise or business. the problem is that many of them are now above the law and are infulencing goverment legistlation with cash - not ballots.

The top banks now have more power, wealth and influence than the US government itself.
Some thing is horribly wrong with that. in any country the Goverment should be at the very top of the heirachy, in America they are not.

They sold you out, the bail outs are proof of this - and now some people are angry.

Very, very well said.

[soopaman2]

Such notions have been presented and are currently presented only to be shot down in a ball of flames. No matter what is attempted there will always be one group that will cry foul. It simply sucks when 47 some odd % do not pay a lick of taxes but enjoy the benefits.


You would love my rants on welfare queens who drive nicer cars than me, and get paid according to how many sprogs they shoot out their vagina.

We may be on the opposite side of the "aisle" but there is some things that is just vile.

To use this to discount the OWS is just silly. Grasping at straws to discredit a movement that they fear. Can I ask why, most of them are the (so called)
53%.

[mookiemookie]

It simply sucks when 47 some odd % do not pay a lick of taxes but enjoy the benefits.

Except that they do pay taxes. Federal payroll taxes for Medicare and Social Security being some of the largest. Sales tax as well.

[AVGWarhawk]

Except that they do pay taxes. Federal payroll taxes for Medicare and Social Security being some of the largest. Sales tax as well.


Tax Day is a dreaded deadline for millions, but for nearly half of U.S. households it's simply somebody else's problem.

About 47 percent will pay no federal income taxes at all for 2009. Either their incomes were too low, or they qualified for enough credits, deductions and exemptions to eliminate their liability. That's according to projections by the Tax Policy Center, a Washington research organization.


http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Nearly-half-of-US-households-apf-1105567323.html


Fair tax. No deductions, exemptions...NOTHING. Let's be fair. After all, everyone enjoys what our taxes pay for.

[Onkel Neal]

Mr. Stevens, that is common sense. (shame on you sir)


Shame on me? :-? What for?

[mookiemookie]

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Nearly-half-of-US-households-apf-1105567323.html


That's fine, but where in that article do they say that these people don't pay payroll taxes, sales taxes, excise taxes, property taxes, etc?

The whole "47%" number is intentionally misleading.

[soopaman2]

:)Shame on me? :-? What for?

I have a sarcastic sense about me. It don't translate in text well, my apologies.
Displaying common sense in a world of smoke and mirrors. It has to be a sin! :03:
Remember wizard of OZ? Ignore the little feeble old man behind the curtain. You see through the curtain and see common sense without partisan nonsense.

Rich, poor, pay your share. We all benefit. I had the firefighters put out my garage before it torched my house where my family was. I had police recover my truck when it was stolen. (I live near a gang infested craphole)

I am happy to pay taxes. We all should.

Does that mean I can't support the OWS movement anymore? This thread seems more of an anti OWS than anything else.

[tater]

The subject is if they pay INCOME TAX. So payroll taxes are off-subject. As are sales taxes. We all pay those. Anyone not paying net income taxes doesn't have any ground to stand on to complain about anything.

In addition, those that don't pay income tax get a far better return on their payroll taxes than those that subsidize them do since the income levels that don't pay taxes have higher SS rates of return. They also use more government services, whereas I use virtually none aimed just at me (only roads, defense, etc—heck, we don't even use the school system, my kids go to private school).

For SS, the net benefit to taxes paid ratio gets pretty ugly at the point you make enough to pay real income tax (any lifetime average income much over 35k and your net is negative).

So FICA is a good investment for the poor, and a redistributive tax for anyone else.

[mookiemookie]

The subject is if they pay INCOME TAX. So when people say that they don't pay taxes, you just keep narrowing the definition of "taxes" until you're right.

[AVGWarhawk]

That's fine, but where in that article do they say that these people don't pay payroll taxes, sales taxes, excise taxes, property taxes, etc?

The whole "47%" number is intentionally misleading.

How so? The article states About 47 percent will pay no federal income taxes at all for 2009.

End of thought. It's fine they pay all the other taxes however they get the free pass on Federal income tax. Fair tax is everyone pays into every taxable area. No loophole or free rides for whatever reason that can drummed up.

[Penguin]

Can you guys elaborate to us Non-Americans how many percent of an average paycheck gets soaked up by payroll taxes and how much gets snatched by income taxes? For simplicity without considering deductions.

For employees here, the income tax (wage tax) is directly withheld from your monthly pay, for other sources of income you do a yearly tax declaration, like in the US.

[tater]

So when people say that they don't pay taxes, you just keep narrowing the definition of "taxes" until you're right.

When I say that, I mean exactly what I say, they pay no income taxes. This is true. In many cases they pay NEGATIVE income taxes.

Payroll taxes are kept separate so they can talk about them differently, when in fact they should just be lumped. heck, the very notion of an "employer contribution" is BS for the credulous so they think they pay less, and they are "sticking it to the boss."

It still doesn't matter. My effective rate with FICA and income tax is still way higher than someone that pays no income tax. In return I will lose money on SS instead of coming out ahead. That's straight cash in vs cash out, that does not count opportunity costs for what that money could have made.

The people who pay no income tax pay no income tax. They don't pay a fair share of anything. They don't pull even their own weight. Their entitlement receipts are entirely subsidized, as is every government service they get. They are a net drain on the federal government, regardless of what they pay in payroll/sales taxes.

The only people that actually deserve a say in how government money is spent are those that at least pull their own weight, or even those that pay more in than they personally get out (over a lifetime).

[Platapus]

It's not a new situation, lobbying has been around forever, but it's gotten worse and its gone too far.

Well that's a good opinion, but do we have any facts that back that up? We have a lot more oversight and laws than we did in the 19th century. Again, not saying that things are great now. Not at all. But to say they are worse than then in the past has not been demonstrated.


These guys have more control over legislation than the American people do, that's not how American/western democracy is supposed to work.

Well, actually in a representative system the citizens really shouldn't have much control over legislation. That's actually the whole point about representative governments vice democratic governments. I do agree that both the citizens and corporations need to have limited control over legislation. To allow one (Corporations) while denying the other (Citizens) is unacceptable.

Could you imagine how screwed up our country would be if we were truly democratic in nature?

It is depressing, I will agree. But until someone comes up with a better solution that is actually workable, our governmental system is probably still the best crappiest system out there

"Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." - Winny C.

One could substitute representative in the place of democratic as I believe ole Winny actually intended.

[soopaman2]

Could you imagine how screwed up our country would be if we were truly democratic in nature?



I isolated this because it reminds me of my cousin. He moved to Cali after he got out the Marines, and he makes comments on how, "we have to vote to approve the sun to rise here"

True democracy would break most Americans brains, as it would require you to pay attention, and make a free will decision. Free will and thinking are not an American strong suit anymore.