EU deal announced [Archive] - SUBSIM Radio Room Forums

Skybird

10-28-11, 05:43 AM

They announced nothing, really. Not a single detail and condition. It all needs to be hammered out in coming weeks. And it will be without approval by the people in many countries, but will be against the people, and at the cost of the people (=tax payers).

They also want to bring in China. China will not do it for free.

Anyhow, the German Constitutional High Court, which some weeks ago already had ruled that the parliament must be asked about any intention of the government to accept even higher risks and payments to Brussel or the bailing-out of foreign nations, has stopped today the idea of the government that it must not ask the parliament (Merkel has carefully avoided to explain the leverage mechinaism to parliament in re3cent days, and wants to leave the parlimanet in darkness over the bailin-out as much as possible), but can explain and talk to only a secret gremium of just nine people, behind locked doors. The court'S decision is not the final verdict, but a temporary order for stopping until a regular court case has followed and decided the issue. Several members of the parliament have filed that case I think yesterday.

The government demonstrates since months a very high interest in keeping the whole issues hidden from public awareness and preventing the parliament to fully understand the extremely dangerous implications. It seems lacking insight is the only way now to make the Bundestag approving the gambling the government is doing. If you know the full details, you would not approve it.

The whole leveraging of the credit limit is a new highlight, a spiking of the Casino attitude that politicians until one day before the summit have criticised bankers and speculants for. The governments in Europe now are probably the biggest casino gamblers of all.

Oh, and in the past months of this year there have been three opportunities when short-legged decisions have made the market to applaud - for some days, and one week later they already declined again.

It all smells foul and rotten, and shows a deliberate criminal basic attitude by the actors.

On a side-note, a split in the EU is forming up as well, a split between EU-members with and EUJ-members withoiut the Euro. The latter, especially Britain and Poland (both not having the Euro), demand to have a word in the currency decisions, but this week got the door slammed in their faces and shown the way out whenever Euro-relevant decisions were to be made (for example Sarkozy balking at Cameron that Britain has no word to say on it as long as it does not have the Euro itself). It is becoming a two-faced Europe at least, with the Euro-member states lead by Germany ad - from a weaker psoition - France. Howqever, this will last only for as long as Germany already waning financial power can last, and the German population still does not realise that there future poensions and livbing basis when they have becomign old alreadey have been gambled away by handing away the securities the system would need to support them in the future. Two days ago I read that even the gold reserve of the Bundestag is at risk and may already be part of the "deal" for the bailouts.

Jimbuna

10-28-11, 06:38 AM

Dread Knot

10-28-11, 07:04 AM

What started out as a 'haircut' looks more like a beheading now. :dead:

TarJak

10-28-11, 07:20 AM

I've been watching some of the political meandering on the news.....wouldn't it be simpler to let Greece default and opt out of the Euro?

Better to cut your losses now than build up even larger ones with no end in sight.
But the fear that default generates across global markets is what this deal is about. I don't think they are taking the right action either though. Some things are better left to fail than to be propped up by rotten deals that end up hurting the people they are meant to protect.

I think the global economy is in for more rough weather to come.

Jimbuna

10-28-11, 07:26 AM

But the fear that default generates across global markets is what this deal is about. I don't think they are taking the right action either though. Some things are better left to fail than to be propped up by rotten deals that end up hurting the people they are meant to protect.

I think the global economy is in for more rough weather to come.

Yes...I agree :yep:

Osmium Steele

10-28-11, 07:56 AM

Evidently, Greece is too big to fail...

STEED

10-28-11, 09:22 AM

STEED

10-28-11, 09:23 AM

Experts are saying Greece will go under sooner or latter. We're just throwing money on the bonfire, even with this 50% cut.

mookiemookie

10-28-11, 09:27 AM

Having a voluntary deal is important because imposing losses on banks can trigger massive bond insurance payments that risk creating huge turmoil on global financial markets.

One of this biggest missteps in all of the bailouts and resulting watered down "regulation" to come about in the wake of the financial crisis is the fact that credit default swaps and other derivatives were never reigned in, limited, or regulated in any meaningful way. They were one of the prime enablers of the crisis and why that's never been addressed is beyond me.

A credit default swap is intended to mitigate credit risk on an underlying asset. If a credit event is triggered, and the insurance is forced to pay, this is the product working exactly as it is designed to do. If the product working exactly as it's intended to would cause financial turmoil, there's a problem with the product.

JU_88

10-28-11, 09:36 AM

It is estimated that China will snatch the title of No:1 Economic superpower from the U.S by 2016.
Maybe its time to learn Mandarin :hmmm:

JU_88

10-28-11, 09:43 AM

One of this biggest missteps in all of the bailouts and resulting watered down "regulation" to come about in the wake of the financial crisis is the fact that credit default swaps and other derivatives were never reigned in, limited, or regulated in any meaningful way. They were one of the prime enablers of the crisis and why that's never been addressed is beyond me.
.

Because the Banks virtually own our governments, any politician who stands up to the bankers is basically committing career suicide ;)

Skybird

10-28-11, 10:37 AM

I've been watching some of the political meandering on the news.....wouldn't it be simpler to let Greece default and opt out of the Euro?

Better to cut your losses now than build up even larger ones with no end in sight.
What do you think of us...???:stare: We Germans are good people now, we are very very kind and wellmeaning and no longer threaten anyone anymore! And isn't it like our chancellor and her mouthpieces keep telling us: that it was the EU securing freedom and safety during the cold war and keeping the red guys away, and isn't it that without the Euro currency we immediately would fall back into the era when European states waged war after war against each other! A single currency means peace, our governmen tells us so, time and again, it is true! Merkel says time and again that her policy is without alternative! Democratic processing is not needed, we just need to hear and follow! You crazy Anglosaxon island squatters better start to listen to her!

Also, if you take away the EU and the Euro and the German self-deconstruction for both, what option would the German war generation a la Helmut Schmidt have then to reassure the world and even more important: their own bad consciousness that they are so very sorry for WWII and what the Third Reich had done to everybody! Sacrificing ourselves now for the EU and the Euro is their best method to demonstrate how very very bad they still feel overt what happened 70 years ago!

Wicked Skybird says: Germany lost the war, and for that it deserves punishment! May sound ironic, but there is some grain of truth in it. You guys cannot imagine how crazy us Germans can tick. Only Germans can.

Hm. After two world wars, maybe you can as well. :D

soopaman2

10-28-11, 11:03 AM

I've been watching some of the political meandering on the news.....wouldn't it be simpler to let Greece default and opt out of the Euro?

Better to cut your losses now than build up even larger ones with no end in sight.

Someone powerful is making money off the misfortunes (lazy early retiring) of the greeks, that and entrenched political interest. (EU/world wide, not just Greece)

Same reason we (USA) ignored a major rule of capitalism (let the weak fail) by bailing out our sloppy banks.

You Euros are free to blame the United States for this. We set the trend of privatizing the profits and socializing the losses.

Yes Mr. Jimbuna, let them fail.. It may hurt the elites for awhile but things will stabilize eventually.:)

There isn't a banking institution in this world is is not corrupt or complicit in this worldwide economic crises.

Osmium Steele

10-28-11, 11:47 AM

Someone powerful is making money off the misfortunes (lazy early retiring) of the greeks, that and entrenched political interest. (EU/world wide, not just Greece)

Same reason we (USA) ignored a major rule of capitalism (let the weak fail) by bailing out our sloppy banks.

You Euros are free to blame the United States for this. We set the trend of privatizing the profits and socializing the losses.

Yes Mr. Jimbuna, let them fail.. It may hurt the elites for awhile but things will stabilize eventually.:)

There isn't a banking institution in this world is is not corrupt or complicit in this worldwide economic crises.

I'm trying to find something with which I disagree in the above statement.

Ok, maybe the last sentence as I know a couple of small, locally run banks who are still clean, but yeah...

+1

soopaman2

10-28-11, 11:52 AM

I'm trying to find something with which I disagree in the above statement.

Ok, maybe the last sentence as I know a couple of small, locally run banks who are still clean, but yeah...

+1

Thank you. I am usually flamed when I post stuff like that.:O:

mookiemookie

10-28-11, 11:56 AM

Thank you. I am usually flamed when I post stuff like that.:O:

Not in this case. I agree with you, but also Osmium. Many of the smaller community banks are responsibly and prudently run.

Osmium Steele

10-28-11, 12:13 PM

Group hug!

I'll make Tea Partiers out of you two yet. :O:

STEED

10-28-11, 12:19 PM

The ship is rocking again..

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/8846201/Debt-crisis-live.html

JU_88

10-28-11, 01:22 PM

The ship is rocking again..

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/8846201/Debt-crisis-live.html

Ugh.... All I can say is...ahhh bugger! :oops:

Jimbuna

10-28-11, 02:37 PM

What do you think of us...???:stare: We Germans are good people now, we are very very kind and wellmeaning and no longer threaten anyone anymore! And isn't it like our chancellor and her mouthpieces keep telling us: that it was the EU securing freedom and safety during the cold war and keeping the red guys away, and isn't it that without the Euro currency we immediately would fall back into the era when European states waged war after war against each other! A single currency means peace, our governmen tells us so, time and again, it is true! Merkel says time and again that her policy is without alternative! Democratic processing is not needed, we just need to hear and follow! You crazy Anglosaxon island squatters better start to listen to her!

Also, if you take away the EU and the Euro and the German self-deconstruction for both, what option would the German war generation a la Helmut Schmidt have then to reassure the world and even more important: their own bad consciousness that they are so very sorry for WWII and what the Third Reich had done to everybody! Sacrificing ourselves now for the EU and the Euro is their best method to demonstrate how very very bad they still feel overt what happened 70 years ago!

Wicked Skybird says: Germany lost the war, and for that it deserves punishment! May sound ironic, but there is some grain of truth in it. You guys cannot imagine how crazy us Germans can tick. Only Germans can.

Hm. After two world wars, maybe you can as well. :D

Someone powerful is making money off the misfortunes (lazy early retiring) of the greeks, that and entrenched political interest. (EU/world wide, not just Greece)

Same reason we (USA) ignored a major rule of capitalism (let the weak fail) by bailing out our sloppy banks.

You Euros are free to blame the United States for this. We set the trend of privatizing the profits and socializing the losses.

Yes Mr. Jimbuna, let them fail.. It may hurt the elites for awhile but things will stabilize eventually.:)

There isn't a banking institution in this world is is not corrupt or complicit in this worldwide economic crises.

All I'll say to you both atm is.....I'm not a fan of the EU....the UK is an island nation and as such we have always stood alone in the past.

Yes, the EU supporters claim that pulling out of the EU will harm our economy but if you have anything of worth that is wanted by a consumer they will find the means to trade.

Take it to a referendum of the British nation...funny how neither of the big two political parties fail to do that...I wonder why?

Skybird

10-28-11, 03:36 PM

Why do you think both your parties prevent a referendum? They know exactly that - if I project a correct estimation from reading your press - at least two thirds of the British population, maybe even more?!, seem to prefer turning their backs on the EU, and pulling out. Politicians however do not care for the will of those who voted them into office, but care more for the powerinterests of their parties, which also reach beyond the national context . So they do not ask your people.

Same betrayal over here. If the Germans would be asked over the Euro, a majority already would have voted for abandoning it, in fact a majority never wanted it, and many insiders and experts of various fields who were independent from the parties warned against it from all beginning on.

Politicians. Most bankers. Economic lobbyists. Clerics. They all are just four different arms of this one kraken called "organised crime".

JU_88

10-28-11, 03:59 PM

Politicians. Most bankers. Economic lobbyists. Clerics. They all are just four different arms of this one kraken called "organised crime".

+1 :nope:

Penguin

10-28-11, 04:00 PM

I am just a dumb, uneducated person, I had only one class of economics, so I don't understand the whole thing.

If I would lend money to the shady guy behind the central train station, who asks me and promises to pay me back with interest, it would be my own risk and my own stupidity.

Why are the banks treated different? Are they so important to our economic system, like Merkel & the rest of the bunch wants to tell us? In her last interview, she somehow acted like our financial system is god-given.
What kind of system do we have anyway? Free-market, when the banks called to be untied from the restrains the government put on them? Or do we have a solidarity principle, when we have to help those poor buggers who wagered with their money?
:06:

soopaman2

10-28-11, 04:10 PM

Group hug!

I'll make Tea Partiers out of you two yet. :O:

I am a little of both.

While I consider myself liberal in my nature to want to help the weaker (who is helping themselves). I find myself agreeing with alot of conservative beliefs about letting the weak, and un-helpable sink.

A country is as strong as it treats its weakest members. But we should cut off the "gravy train" folks who exploit the benefits.

There are people who earned those benefits (by paying into the system) who may need them, but will have them taken due to exploiters.

Oberon

10-28-11, 04:30 PM

All I'll say to you both atm is.....I'm not a fan of the EU....the UK is an island nation and as such we have always stood alone in the past.

Yes, the EU supporters claim that pulling out of the EU will harm our economy but if you have anything of worth that is wanted by a consumer they will find the means to trade.

Take it to a referendum of the British nation...funny how neither of the big two political parties fail to do that...I wonder why?

I'm with you Jim but I think that pulling out of the EU without arranging a steady exit would be disastrous for the UK, particularly in terms of trade tariffs. Our industries are simply not competitive enough to compete on an even level with the likes of China and the Far East, and unfortunately it is partly the EU that is the cause of this. If we want to leave the EU then it must be done gently so that our economy doesn't collapse and send us over the edge into Greek territory. We have an advantage over most of the EU nations because we've never really been fully in the EU, so it'll be easy to extract ourselves from the mire, but just jumping out would be, IMHO anyway, the worst possible thing we could do in terms of the stability of our economy.

The snag is, the UK even making moves to leave the EU right now would also send a massive shockwave across the financial sectors of Europe and screw over the economy even more. Damned if you do and damned if you don't. This is probably why no referendum has been done, because we are so far down in this hole that there is no way out, so we just keep digging and hope we reach Australia rather than the molten lava of the Earths core.

Skybird

10-28-11, 04:43 PM

rather than the molten lava of the Earths core.
Blessed are the colour-blind, they shout "The blue lagoon!", get out of their cloathes and jumpo into it - happy, smiling and expecting the best.

Oberon

10-28-11, 04:45 PM

Blessed are the colour-blind, they shout "The blue lagoon!", get out of their cloathes and jumpo into it - happy, smiling and expecting the best.

Yeah, western nations do seem to have the self-preservation instincts of the average lemming when it comes down to money...little wonder voter apathy is on the rise. Still, as the old saying goes "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others."

Skybird

10-28-11, 04:48 PM

Skybird

10-28-11, 05:01 PM

Still, as the old saying goes "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others."
Since some time, I am no longer convinced of this. It seems it solves not much, compared to for example a feudal system. It seems to always create corruption on big big big scale.

You can favour dfe,mocracy if people would vote reasonable, respionsibly people into offices, but it seems that doesn'T happen often. On the other hand, you can happen to end up with a a reasonable and responsible guy in rule in a feudal system, too. So the only thing that democracy seems to make different opver a feudal system is that by voting results it gives proof for the stupidity of the crowds who vote for those they then complain about. In a feudal system, ther stupidity of the crowd has the charm of never being proven beyond the level of rumour, assumption and mere claim.

The ancient citizens of Athens already were desperate over their democracy not solving the issue of corruption that they hoped to get rid of by introducing corruption. They had a lottery to force random citizens into offices. They said: if our votes cannot counter the threat of corrupt people gaining offices, then at least we can include an element of chance and hopefully achieve a normal, more balanced probability-distribution for people being corrupt and not beign corrupt ending up in power. But it did not work. Most random-chance office holders were incompetent to fulfill their new dfuties, or found it impossible tpo feed their families and fill the office'S duties at the same time. So they payed members of a self-forming, self-declaring "elite" to govern in their place and take the burden of freedom and responsibility away from them again. And so - corrupt elites snkeaked back into power, through the backdoor, but still - with an intended invitation in their hand.

The only way to fight corruption in government is to have no government and maybe indeed having an anarchic system. But that would open door and gate for jungle law of the strongest, and uncountered monopolism. So even this "solution" is just illusive.

Honstely said, I have no idea how to solve this probvölpem. It seems to be part of human nature and dualistic conceptions of what life and world are. And where there is light, you have darkness as well, and every force has an equal opposite force.

Penguin

10-28-11, 05:06 PM

the name of the system is simple: internalizing all profits, externalizing all costs: the gains for the profiteers, the burdens for the tax payer; the chances for the profiteers, the risks for the tax payer.

So why call the kid free market economy, either socialize profits and losses or nothing at all. The next speculation wave will come, with folks betting against the next Euro-zone states. Nothing we can do, say our wise leaders, but use more money to bet against the betters...:nope:

And economics is no science. You need more psychology than economic classes to understand it.

I hate it too when those oracles and con artists call themselves scientists.
Actually the course I had was more about psychology and management training than anything else, the scientific (mathematic) part is nothing more than income - expenses = profit. :DL

btw: did you read the thing about the 24 billion Euro our govenment discovered today at the Hypo Real Estate? They didn't discover it before, because of bad balance sheet accounting - unglaublich, those economic "experts"! :damn:

TarJak

10-28-11, 05:07 PM

This is probably why no referendum has been done, because we are so far down in this hole that there is no way out, so we just keep digging and hope we reach Australia rather than the molten lava of the Earths core.There are easier ways of getting here you know.
http://www.businessreviewaustralia.com/sectors/qantas-a380-airbus_0.jpg
:O:

Skybird

10-28-11, 05:33 PM

btw: did you read the thing about the 24 billion Euro our govenment discovered today at the Hypo Real Estate? They didn't discover it before, because of bad balance sheet accounting - unglaublich, those economic "experts"! :damn:
24 is old. It is now 55 billion.

Reminds me of the Greeks two weeks ago, when all of a sudden they discovered some financial reserves of their own - when they did not get the crdit they were waiting for.

Dan D

10-28-11, 05:35 PM

Is this the occupy subsim street thread, you "hippies"? :-)

soopaman2

10-28-11, 08:01 PM

Maybe it's time to bring the British Empire back and the Holy Roman Empire.

The French can take turns fighting the both. Britain gets the USA and some of Canada back, sorry the French gets Montreal, unless you want to kick them out again.

The HRE (Germany) gets to have whatever land they take from the French.

Deal? Shake hands...fast!

Its time we got medieval.

Oberon

10-28-11, 08:32 PM

Since some time, I am no longer convinced of this. It seems it solves not much, compared to for example a feudal system. It seems to always create corruption on big big big scale.

You can favour dfe,mocracy if people would vote reasonable, respionsibly people into offices, but it seems that doesn'T happen often. On the other hand, you can happen to end up with a a reasonable and responsible guy in rule in a feudal system, too. So the only thing that democracy seems to make different opver a feudal system is that by voting results it gives proof for the stupidity of the crowds who vote for those they then complain about. In a feudal system, ther stupidity of the crowd has the charm of never being proven beyond the level of rumour, assumption and mere claim.

The ancient citizens of Athens already were desperate over their democracy not solving the issue of corruption that they hoped to get rid of by introducing corruption. They had a lottery to force random citizens into offices. They said: if our votes cannot counter the threat of corrupt people gaining offices, then at least we can include an element of chance and hopefully achieve a normal, more balanced probability-distribution for people being corrupt and not beign corrupt ending up in power. But it did not work. Most random-chance office holders were incompetent to fulfill their new dfuties, or found it impossible tpo feed their families and fill the office'S duties at the same time. So they payed members of a self-forming, self-declaring "elite" to govern in their place and take the burden of freedom and responsibility away from them again. And so - corrupt elites snkeaked back into power, through the backdoor, but still - with an intended invitation in their hand.

The only way to fight corruption in government is to have no government and maybe indeed having an anarchic system. But that would open door and gate for jungle law of the strongest, and uncountered monopolism. So even this "solution" is just illusive.

Honstely said, I have no idea how to solve this probvölpem. It seems to be part of human nature and dualistic conceptions of what life and world are. And where there is light, you have darkness as well, and every force has an equal opposite force.

That is the kicker, the 60 trillion dollar question, how do you solve a problem like humanity? :haha: Still, to be fair to democracy, I'd much rather live under it than under something like a Communist dictatorship, or a Islamic theocracy, at least there are a bit more bread and circuses under a democracy, keeps the serfs from realising that their entire government is a pile of rubbish.

Skybird

10-29-11, 06:23 AM

German story (http://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/article13687320/Griechenland-steht-schlechter-da-als-vor-der-Krise.html)on Greece - after the haircut is before the haircut. You can forsee already now, no, you can KNOW for sure that after the deal now Greece will be off worse than before this deal. ICF and EU are once again hilariously and hysterically over-optimistic in their statements.

Greece will fall. And since the EU is unable to prevcent this, but will headlessly destroy its own last reserves in trying it nevertheless, one can take it for sure that Italy, Spain, and maybe some others also, will fall too, causing even mnore mess in Europe. Even France to me is a high risk candidate. And Germany is not safe, too. The "markets" already bet against it, our state credits already have become more expensive, house builders need to pay higher interest. This will accelerate explosively once the first rating agency indeed decreases Germany'S top rating - a step already threatened.

In other words: we must start to consider thinking of Europe as a failed state now, too.

We would need an economically cooperating, coordinating Europe, since not even the German economy is strong enough to hold its grounds against Brasil, India, China in the near future. The cheap-wages-countries will simply flush us away. A cooperating and coordinatring europe is a must. But not in the form it has been designed over the past 20 years, as an ideoloigy-driven project leading far beyond the economic needs, ruled by incompetent leaders, lobbyists and bureaucrats. This EU is not potent to stem the tide. In fact it is accelerating the shifting of balances against us, by exporting its exploding debts to its rivals, smoothing the way for us needing to make even more economic concessions to them: to their growing advantage and our growing disadvantage. Great.

STEED

10-30-11, 07:14 AM

George Soros attacks Brussels rescue deal
Veteran investor George Soros has attacked the lack of leadership at the top of the eurozone and said that the new Brussels "deal" to solve the debt crisis will only last between "one day and three months".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/8857456/George-Soros-attacks-Brussels-rescue-deal.html

Skybird

10-30-11, 07:33 AM

Soros probably is right, sometimes he really is, but his motives to talk the EU into more spending frenzy are anything but noble and altruistic.

He wants the EU tax payers to safe his own personal wealth. That's all.

A fat cat playing socialist as a hobby. Well, he can afford it.

I open the official subsim betting office. Bets are not accepted for Greece, since its fate is already decided. But you can bet who is next: Portugal before or Italy, or the other way around. You also can bet if after that Spain comes before France, or the other way around. :D

Jimbuna

10-30-11, 10:39 AM

soopaman2

10-30-11, 10:52 AM

Yes....I fully agree :yep:

I'll go for Italy next :DL

I would say Portugal first, causing a rippling effect to rip Spain out.

France is safe, they are in "the club"

In all sadness the Euro currency is to cause for this. The "money flexibility" (inflation, deflation, interest rates etc) will always be skewed in favor of the dominant financial bearer(s).

Being Germany and France. If the Greeks were still on the Drachma it would have allowed them to take action independant of the rest of the EU.

In other words, cuz I suck at making sense sometimes, What works great in Britain, may not work well in the Czeck Republic. What is great for Germany, could be ruinous to another...Money is not free, in order for people to win, some have to lose.

They could have still sunk, but we don't know... This Euro thing is silly, culture is still a factor in todays money oriented society. Whats good for the goose isn't good for the gander, as they say.

STEED

10-31-11, 03:29 PM

Greece's prime minister has called a referendum on the new EU rescue package, as a leading economist tells Sky News a no vote would be a disaster for the eurozone.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/greek-pm-calls-referendum-eu-aid-package-182342832.html

Go with No and stick it to them.

Jimbuna

10-31-11, 05:25 PM

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/greek-pm-calls-referendum-eu-aid-package-182342832.html

Go with No and stick it to them.

Agreed....the ungrateful basums.

They are starting to look at protecting themselves :o

Skybird

10-31-11, 05:42 PM

I love it! Sounds like the most promising bet since long to blow apart the Eurozone!

Jimbuna

11-01-11, 05:37 AM

The inevitable stock market downturn is the current consequence....

"Other countries are making considerable sacrifices for decades of mismanagement and poor leadership in Greece."
He added that the only thing to do now would be to prepare for the Greek state to be insolvent and try to limit the damage to Europe's banking system.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15533940

papa_smurf

11-01-11, 08:39 AM

Skybird

11-01-11, 09:09 AM

Greek president George Papandreou has thrown in a proverbial "spanner in the works" to the deal, by announcing a referendum on whether Greece should take the deal or not.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15533940

Many are now expecting a No vote, and Greece could default/leave the euro. Good news in the short term you say, but was watching the BBC news just and this could lead to banks/investors holding debts for other EU nations in trouble withholding more support and could make things FAR worse.
It is a turbulent day for European stockmarkets, yes. And if Greece defaults, it is a precedence, and other countries in the EU-zone that are weak will also ask, like Greece, whether they should leave the Euro. What we talk about effectively means the end of the Euro-zone as we know it. And yes, it will be an end with terror.

The alternative is terror without end.

Things are too bad, much too bad now as if any sane mind could seriously believe anymore that we could get out of it without suffering.

Interest rates for Spanish and Italian bonds again rocketed upwards today, and what I expect next, no matterf what it will be with greece, is a massive rush of private capital and investment away from the Southern olive-belt of Europe, giving them even less support and even higher interest rates. These countries are in what a vertex is for a helicopter: no way out if you do not have sufficient altitude for a gentle easing, and the more power you apply to the rotor, the more force you create to indeed suck you towards the ground. Just that these countries have so many prioblems and debts that that they already hover below sea-level, so to speak.

Calculations have shown that the "deal" reached some days ago, doe not even fulfill half of the expecations the superficial numbers seemed to have promised and that in some years Greece will be off even muchz worse than it already is now, even if it all would be followed right down to the dot above the i. I assume that this is dawning upon Papandreou and that he is not willing to play the lamb to slaughter afterwards when the whole card-house finally has collapsed.

Question is what the still stronger countries - with the emphasis on "still" - will do: will they still commit themselves to a hopeless suicide mission and allow to get pulled down along with the rest in order to continue their certifiable self-blinding idealism - and mental derangement, if you are less euphemistic - over the Euro and the EU for some pleasant days more before the kettle explodes, or will they finally realise that now they have to save themselves, though under very high losses as well? In other words: will the choice be to lose everything for nothing, or will it be to avccept hurting losses to save at least some?

Germany has plenty to lose with a collapsing Euro, since it's export-heavy industry is very weak when considering how much depending on exports it is indeed. But I think our loss will be even higher if we allow to turn the EU into an unlimited transfer union with bailout after bailout. That would not cost only constant high ammounts of money and increase our own debts to levels that sooner or later surpass those levels we see in the Mediterranean regions, but it would not solve the structural problem, but only delay they final payday - and not for an unlimited ammount of time, but probbaly only a short ammount of time.

Since half a century, roughly, there have been warnings by some that an economy based on debt-making cannot go forever, but must necessarily collapse one day, since it is a snowball system at the cost of the generation that is the last generation of players before the collapse. It seems to me that the talking about this will not go on for another unknown ammount of time, but that the time has run out and we are about to be presented the final accumulated bill. Payday is here, and it means a questioning of the complete economic model that has been established over the time at least since WWII. And we have the unwanted pleasure to enjoy the show from the central seat in the first row, since we are right in the middle of it. Not today, maybe, and probbaly not tomorrow. But you better stop counting in decades, even "unknown number of years".

And for many hundreds of thousands if not millions in several countries from the US to Eastern Europe, this already has beocme a reality as to be seen in their deep social fall that many have experienced since 2008. Many of them will fall even deeper, and their kids along with them, and many more will join their fall.

That is the collective price our civilisation now must pay for what it did over the past 70 years or so. And no, I do not exclude myself from that, since I know my position in life is far from being economically strong anymore.

andritsos

11-01-11, 09:46 AM

Terror will be unavoidable, (especially for the greeks now) regardless of the way it will present itself. I have people around me that say that greece will default. It is pure mathematics they say ( however i have to admit i know nothing about economics). Personally if i think about what is gonna happen, if they keep '' helping''/''rescueing'' Greece as they do in these recent years , they just postpone an event while they suck in what greeks have ( and just wait that 'the capital is moved elsewhere'). And we had a noticeable middle class, at least easy to notice in Athens. While the means of such rise can be questionable.
I cant negate that greece will pay for its mistakes. Even worse, will make the next generations pay
Our way of life/work etc was went with bad things, education is a huge mess ( btw the state couldnt provide books for half students), having huge political, economical problems and inequality since 30 years with more or less the same political mess.
Even if it will be a bad situation, most importantly unknown, i have the feeling that we have to flush the toilet here in greece.
Anyways, next decade(s) for greece will be quite bad... future generations that will pay consequences from what was done now and in the previous century.....
P.S. If i am very pessimistic all this its the trigger of something very bad that will appear in next decade(s)

andritsos

11-01-11, 09:50 AM

...

And for many hundreds of thousands if not millions in several countries from the US to Eastern Europe, this already has become a reality as to be seen in their deep social fall that many have experienced since 2008. Many of them will fall even deeper, and their kids along with them, and many more will join their fall.

That is the collective price our civilisation now must pay for what it did over the past 70 years or so. And no, I do not exclude myself from that...

exactly that :cry:

JU_88

11-01-11, 10:09 AM

It does look like a global economic collapes is going to be unavoidable :( both the US and EU are already on financial life support.... The Euro dying is going to hurt us enough, but a possible Dollar collapes would be a total disaster.
in 2008 Goverments bailed out the banks. Now we have governments bailing out governments, its obvious what comes next.

I'd advise everyone to start gradually stocking up on storable food and water, I know its worse case scenario, but i figure its something Id rather regret doing than regret not doing.
If the worst happens - shops only have 3-4 days worth of stock.
If it doesn't happen, well at least I wont need to buy any tinned food for a while.

Its a horrible a frighting reality, but our 70 year binge of debt and over consumption is about to come to a head, the sooner we face up to that the better. Nobody truley knows what the outcome will be, maybe it wont be quite so terrible (one can hope)... but from what Ive seen, I wouldnt rule out 1930s levels of deppression or worse as a possible scenario.

Lastest developments not good.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2056123/Greece-referendum-Wall-Street-stocks-plunge-Greek-PM-calls-bailout-vote.html

Skybird

11-01-11, 12:09 PM

A German newspaper titled the debt problem and the Greek crisis a "global financial core meltdown".

I think indeed that is what it comes down to.

Respenus

11-01-11, 02:40 PM

JU_88

11-01-11, 03:00 PM

"If men define situations as real, they are real in their consequences." - Thomas theorem.

I shan't say anything, as almost everything has been said in the past. What I will say is this: If we allow ourselves this mental handicap that the end of days is approaching, than the Armageddon is the only thing that we'll get. I'm not saying that things are all right, far from it, but if all we see is the perpetuation of this system in tyranny or complete chaos, than something is horribly wrong with us. There are alternatives! Hard times are ahead, for everyone, but if we do not step together and prevent events steam-rolling us into oblivion, then who will? The elites? They'll save themselves.

Now, as to how we can do something like this...I've tried to approach this topic before, here on these forums, in conversation, I've even had a long chat with Skybird...and I've come up short. However, that doesn't mean that my cautious optimism is any more dented as it already was. Always look at the bright side of life! :D

Well yes, it could be testing times, but its not inconceivable that something better could arise from the ashes.
I hate all this doom and gloom, but if the worse does happen? those who are not in the slightest bit mentally or physically prepared will be the ones who will fall the hardest....

I'd sure feel alot better right now if i lived in some remote location with a vegatable patch and solar power, anyone who is self sufficient won't feel a thing! :D

Skybird

11-01-11, 04:59 PM

An optimist to me is somebody who approaches a traffic light and sees it jumping from green to yellow while he gets closer, and he thinks: maybe it will jump from yellow-only back to green although that is not possible, or there will be a blackout, or a sudden thunderstorm will appear and blow it away, and so when I have reached the crossroad I will be able to pass right through and do not need to stop.

A pessimist to me is somebody who does not even look at the traffic lights and just keeps saying: it will be red - red - red when I have reached it, it always was red, and it always will be red, and nothing that could ever happen will change that that light will be red, inevitably. I'm doomed, I always was, and I always will be. All life sucks. That traffic light proves it. Aaah - see...!? What have I just said!

A realist to me is somebody who knows that when there is a yellow plus a red light, the next thing lighting up will be green, and if there is just a yellow light alone, the next things to light up will be red - no matter whether I prefer to have a red or a green light when I reach the crossroad. I know that from empiric experience, and becasue my father has programmed the control software for that traffic light, and because the traffic statues say also that they should be designed that way, and I learned that stuff. So the realist bases on past empiric experiences and proven knowledge, he looks around, and forms his expectation for the future on basis of what he knows, and sees: a red light jumping to red plus yellow, or a green light jumping to yellow alone. He then knows whether it will be red or green next. No need for optimism or pessimis. Neither would do harm, nor would do any good. It just does not matter.

I am not pessimistic or optimistic. I see a dysfunctional currency that causes havoc, I see a political system that looks and acts and decides like a neo-feudal system or a dictatorship, I see an institution named EU that stands in the way of European people really living in a Europe that is formed by their will, I see a dysfunctional economic system basing on suicidal exploitation of ressources without regeneration windows, and I see a population of 7 billions, climbing. That tells me two things: the traffic light is yellow and about to jump to red, and the destruction of the Euro currency and the dismantling of the EU in the form it has gained in the past 20 years at least will be extremely painful and hurting, but are necessary to reclaim the freedom and ground to build new, and better. And that I do not see as a guarantee for a better future, only keeping a small chance, since several factors I mentioned are againmst us, and without massive reduction of global population levels any other measurement is impossible to save us: 7 billion people is several billions too much.

So to me, the fall of the Euro and the EU is more about hope than dispair or armageddon. It is a pain that is necessary to keep at least a chance for the future that things will get improved. I just cannot escape to conclude on the basis of what I see. Mere hope is no strategy, and I never considered hope as helpful or relieving, speaking for myself only. It does nothing for me. Nor does pessimism. I cannot escape the little Spock inside me.

Now seeing a good reason for being hopeful, seeing a red-yellow traffic light - that is something different. But I cannot see that in this EU and in this currency. With just the tip of the roof-antenna visible above the swamp's surface I know that we will not get the car out of the swamp again without getting wet from head to feet and making our hands dirty, ruining our dresses completely and desperately gasping for air. We will break some fingers, get scratches and will bleed, and some helpers maybe even will drown.

Time for easy, clean and cheap simsalabim-solutions or hoping for some wonder-magic is over. Since long. We kept our course right into the centre of a strom. Now we will need to ride right through the middle of it. Many regional and local cultures before us have been where we are today , with comparing challenges to their survival, and most of them died, especially those ruled by strong conservative cults and habits, and without written language that would have enabled them to learn observations of past generations. What makes our situation unique is that for the first time not just a regional, local culture is at this stage, but the world-wide global community. This is a first. And that is why the concerns today cannot be waved away as mere pessimism or armageddon-belief only like those that have always been there, in all eras and cultures. Back then they were made from a context of small regional, local viewing ranges. Today we can assess the whole world.

We must not believe but we know that the threats are globally. A dissappearing Rome had some influence on the world even when dying. A dissappearing culture and a dying people on the Easter Island meant nothing to anyone not living there, was not even noted outside. But a collapse of the global supply chain with food and natural ressources, a collapse of the traffic and information infrastructure, a collapse of the financial network and the economic interactions worldwide, do have devastating effects on ALL people in the world, no matter where, no matter whether rich or poor. Many pay with losing property, and social security. Many also pay with their lives as well.

So Respenus, it is not Armageddon-attitude of mine when wishing the fall of the Euro and the EU. I am aware of the costs this will cause for us: they will be very hurting already. I just see that fall as an opportunity to keep the small chances that we maybe, in the face of even more global challenges, maybe have. I do not know for sure what the future holds for us, and for me, but I know for damn sure that the old ways that had brought us to where we are today, no longer serve us well. They led us into today's mess, so - conclusions, maybe?

When you stand on the very top of a steep cliff, and the abyss before you, then you must not argue and think and discuss and calculate whether to walk on, or stop and turn around: you look, and see - or you don't. That'S all what decides whether you turn around and search another way out, or jump, blinded.

That is not complicated at all. Complicated are only our efforts to deceive ourselves.

Respenus

11-01-11, 05:13 PM

It's not the best moment for me to go into long discussions, so I'll keep this short. When I said cautiously optimistic, I mean being a realist, but looking at achieving the brighter of possible alternatives. I should had expressed myself better.

While I agree with you Skybird (it appears ever more so with passing years), I see no solution to the EU inside the concept of the nation state. Perhaps I missed that part of your argument (it is late), yet the state is as corrupt an institution as the EU. The EU may at least, on some small level, claim something akin to a benevolent dictatorship (there are advantages in trade and movement that even you can't deny). Nevertheless, EU is where it is because of national policies and politicians. I'll just add this, this whole crisis is a failure of us as well, as homo economicus, since we were more than willing to accept risks to seemingly greater prosperity and as citizens, since we allowed the political system to run rampant. As you've said, we're all guilty. The important thing is, when the crash comes (in whatever form, let's hope for the best, prepare for the worst and all that), where will we stand? On the side of the rebuilders, the denialists or the survivalists? I'd prefer that the most of us will fall in the first category, yet even I don't have such "faith" in the human condition.

Skybird

11-01-11, 05:41 PM

Europe needs to be united on the golobal stage, I do not deny it. Just parts of it alone cannot compete with India, Brasil, China, the US. But the EU shows us that it is only a paper tiger when it comes to this summoned spirit of unity. In the end it is a club of narcissistic egoists.

Also, there is nothing and never has bee something that would qualify for being called just one Europe. I personally think of Europes, in plural.

On the problem of politicians, there I have no solution, only some advise how to try limiting the fallout coming with this nemesis.

First, remember it is said that power corrupts and absolute powers corrupts totally. Giving politicians even bigger playgrounds to blow up their egos in, will not make them reasonable and blessed with a sense of altruism and responsibility - it will just allow them to create even greater messes. This, and the lacking legitimation by the people, is the reason why I so unforgivingly oppose a European federal state.

So, second, I do beolieve that democratic principles can only work in communities of relatively small size. Every member, ideally, should be able to oversee the whole entitity. Only then there can be transparency. Everybody should be able to see what the other over there is doing and causing in consequences for others, and myself. I should be able to see what I cause in consequnces for all the others. Lead not by commands, but by setting an example yourself.

Third, nobody being given power to make decisions, should have the power to exclude himself from the consequences of these decisions, or to evade the rules he makes. Never.

Fourth, trading should be understood as real items-trading only. It makes no sense to ship goods around half the world when the same goods are also being produced at the destination. Trading should not be done to make profits in non-material values, I struggle to find the right words here. A ban on the traditional finance industry that we have, that it is about. People should trade with the other when each of the partners has something that the other cannot produce or does not have atv reach of his. Then it makes sense to ship goods around the globe. What does not make sense is to ship potatoes from Egypt to Germany, or butter from Germany to Denmark. Denmark needs no butter imports, and Germany needs no potatoe imports. Especially not from so far away. Trading should be short, direct, and immediate. No finance business involved. No abstract fortune making with values that exist only on paper.

So I do not really talk about national states, although I am aware of the power of cultural identity and national sentiments. One of the sins of the EU, why it is met with so much hostility, is that it ignores and even denies these differences. But these differences are real, and I found that I got along with foreing people the better the more we accepted these differences and examined them and shared them, instead of just denying them. You cannot deny identity without causing aggression. That is true when you deny the other'S identity, and that is true when you deny your own identity. And that is why I think in quite some cases around the world peace would be served so very much better if people were kept separate instead of forcing together what does not fit.

But in effect, I am talking about the highest possible ammount of economic autarky and sovereignity you can get not just on level of national states, but in the regions, and local areas. As little political adminsitration as possible, as much as is needed for neighbour coordination.

I refer to the literature especially by Leopold Kohr, but also E.F. Schumacher.

So while I claim regional and cultural and to some degree national identity, I am nevertheless no nationalist. ;) A nationalist is someone who puts his national sentment before anything else. But I am a human, a German, a European, a child of Western cultural and historical tradition. And then some more!

Identity is important, even when often based on random or irrational factors. Human people ARE irrational. But that also is something the Eurocrats just don't get.

Europe is a Europes. And the differences should not be flattened and denied, but be taken into account to an ammount so that European people feel comfortable with their regional European identity and regional European culture.

Oberon

11-01-11, 06:43 PM

How ironic...Greece now seems to be running the EU, not Germany or France or Belgium, but the Greek people...

Interesting times....

JU_88

11-01-11, 07:07 PM

How ironic...Greece now seems to be running the EU, not Germany or France or Belgium, but the Greek people...

Interesting times....

While Merkel and Sarkozi are putting on a brave face in light of this unforseen 'act of Greek democracy' you can tell that benethe the surface they are fumming!
Cant say I blame them!
Its not like the Greek bail outs would have averted the crisis anyway, bailouts postpone problems - they do not fix them.

Skybird

11-01-11, 07:15 PM

How ironic...Greece now seems to be running the EU, not Germany or France or Belgium, but the Greek people...

Interesting times....
No, money investors are running it, and have already decided, if assessing the flow pattern of investements. The Eurozone will split, at least, possibly like this graphic shows that they have taken from Fitch, and Bloomberg.

Dark blue means hard-currency core euro countries, light blue means soft-currency secondary euro or independent currencies. Note that France also already looks finished, and has negative prodcutivity balance this year as well (-2%). Germany has a plus of 6%, but seems to be set for a recession now.

http://www.welt.de/multimedia/archive/01497/grafik_euro_DW_Wir_1497252p.jpg

Torplexed

11-01-11, 07:35 PM

They say Greece is where Western Civilization was born.

Looks like that's where it's going to die. :dead:

Jimbuna

11-01-11, 07:40 PM

They say Greece is where Western Civilization was born.

Looks like that's where it's going to die. :dead:

If they end up with a referendum and a result drawing them away to the latest 'understanding/agreement' I can see them becoming 'persona non grata'.

Torplexed

11-01-11, 07:53 PM

If they end up with a referendum and a result drawing them away to the latest 'understanding/agreement' I can see them becoming 'persona non grata'.

I'm sure we'll all be looking forward to the world premiere of My Big Fat Greek Default. Merkel and Sarkozy will be seated front and center, of course. :D

Jimbuna

11-02-11, 02:57 AM

I'm sure we'll all be looking forward to the world premiere of My Big Fat Greek Default. Merkel and Sarkozy will be seated front and center, of course. :D

Aye rgr that....and the swansong for both of them in their next elections I've no doubt :DL

TarJak

11-02-11, 03:39 AM

If they end up with a referendum and a result drawing them away to the latest 'understanding/agreement' I can see them becoming 'persona non grata'.I reckon they are sailing close to the wind on that score with their coice to go to a referendum. Shame the German and French taxpayers weren't consulted as to whether they wanted to bail out the Greeks.

I'm sure we'll all be looking forward to the world premiere of My Big Fat Greek Default. Merkel and Sarkozy will be seated front and center, of course. :D
No doubt.

Aye rgr that....and the swansong for both of them in their next elections I've no doubt :DL
Most likely they have done their dash with this mess. And I see it getting worse for a long while before getting better.

http://www.smh.com.au/business/world-business/greek-vote-plan-puts-bailout-efforts-at-risk-20111102-1muao.html

JU_88

11-02-11, 04:58 AM

Looks like the **** has hit the fan.

Skybird

11-02-11, 06:19 AM

Most likely they have done their dash with this mess. And I see it getting worse for a long while before getting better.

I do not like Merkel and her policy. She is the plague.

The cholera is the alternative, the socialdemocrats - who already have said that they want Germany to come up for the debts, and that the EU treaties should be changed from prohibiting states bailing out each other (remember: it is a legal, valid prohibition set down in international treaties - nobody talks of that today anymore!) to the rich ones and especially Germany paying without any olimitation for the debts of others. The socialdemocrats also accept German interests for credits going through the ceiling as a result from the devaluation of Gertmany'S rating and exploding debt burden. Their likely candidate for the next election, Steinbrück, has said that very clearly: Germany should pay whatever it takes to prevent Greece from defaulting or leaving the Euro.

I do not know which of these alternatives are worse, to me the both are m marking the utmost possible disaster, the worst possible cases.

Polls say at least one third of Germans would vote for a EU- and Euro-critical party right off from the starting line, if such a party would be formed. There is rumours that Hans Olaf Henkel may do that, a former industrial leader who once suppoorted the Euro but now admits that he was terribly blinded and has u-turned in his assessment. He wants the Euro-zone to be split pretty much the way the graphi I posted on the page before illustrates.

Of all what could be tried, this to me looks as the least terrible solution, a core zone based on Germany, Holland, Austria, Finland, and maybe - due to their low debts, Latvia, Slovakia, the graphics even says Slowenia. The EU wpould be needed to stay out of the management of that Euro currency. The ECB needs to become indepednent again, and then stands at the beginning of getting rid of it's toxic assets that are crippling it.

Most liekly this would also need a splitting up of the EU. Which will be battled against, increasing the damage. states like Britain, France and Poland will not like one bit that core zone formed without them , since it marginalises their own power and influence. There will be a lot of stupid talking about things that have nothing to do with it at all: "justice", and "solidarity", and "European spirit". Slogans and paroles, aiming at maximising one'S own piece of the cake. And strong enough to probably prevcent these events, and thus prolonging the mess, and craving the self-paralysing, weak status of the EU in global competition.

Sun Tsu: he who wants to defend everything, will lose everything. Whjat Europe desperately needs is a "Frontbegradigung", and the urgent forming of sufficient tactical reserves.

Dread Knot

11-02-11, 07:07 AM

I just stumbled across this and it sounds ominous: :o

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/f...on-outcry.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/8863728/Greek-military-leadership-changes-spark-opposition-outcry.html)

The Greek government just made a sudden announcement of replacement of the military chiefs. That smells like they fear a military coup, or want to get people in place who might go along with some "extraordinary security measures" or some such. The call for the referendum seemed inexplicable, but if something like this is brewing behind the scenes, it would make sense.

JU_88

11-02-11, 10:35 AM

Markets seem to have stablised again (for now),

On a bright note for anyone else living in the UK who is expecting the worst, I just read that Britains food production is now 60-74% self sufficient (as of 2005) against its current population figures, compared to just 33% prior to WW2.
I guess we owe alot of it to the technoloical advances in the production of food - and perhaps the scare we had during the battle of the Atlantic.
So even in the event our imports & trade collapsed out right, theroetically we could still avoid a serious food shortage, providing it was rationed and the wheels of production were some how kept in motion.
One can hope anyway...

Jimbuna

11-02-11, 12:12 PM

Well if things get any worse all that food will only be of use to us if we aren't expected to buy/pay for it

STEED

11-02-11, 12:14 PM

Markets don't give a dam about what is going on they do what they want. Yesterday was cream off time and today build it up for the next cream off.

Greece don't forget your hard hat when you meet the poison dwarf and her french poodle. ;)

Jimbuna

11-02-11, 12:45 PM

Greece don't forget your hard hat when you meet the poison dwarf and her french poodle. ;)

LOL :DL

JU_88

11-02-11, 01:19 PM

Well if things get any worse all that food will only be of use to us if we aren't expected to buy/pay for it

Well its that or we would turn into a nation of savages.

soopaman2

11-02-11, 01:34 PM

Merkel is doing what is best for Germany and Germany only. It is unfair to the rest of the EU, and will only make the stronger nations weaker in the grand scheme.

One person has way to much control over other cultures and nations. The power to impose their financial will on people with no recourse or objection on the part of the rest of the "union"

Why call it a union? When it really isn't.. No wonder the Brits want to leave.

I can almost compare it to an economical version of a certain Austrian Painters aspirations...

STEED

11-02-11, 02:09 PM

Merkel is doing what is best for Germany and Germany only.

If this is the case she has done a number on France without them knowing about it. :o

Over to Jim to send France a witty wake up letter. :03:

Jimbuna

11-02-11, 03:54 PM

Well its that or we would turn into a nation of savages.

Aren't we uncomfortably close to that already? :o

If this is the case she has done a number on France without them knowing about it. :o

Over to Jim to send France a witty wake up letter. :03:

Sorry mate....fresh out of white cotton handkerchiefs and besides, the Germans would smell a rat :DL

Skybird

11-02-11, 03:55 PM

Merkel is doing what is best for Germany and Germany only. It is unfair to the rest of the EU, and will only make the stronger nations weaker in the grand scheme.

I have the strong suspicion you only say that becasue over here we do not follow that anglosaxon model of spending-spending-spending and increasing debts-debts-debts - although effectively we do right that already. Merkels course csosts us much more and has massively reduced the pensions of future poensioners as well. And she did that not becasue too much Germany-to little Europe on her agenda, about because it is the oither way around.

The main prohblem with Greece and some others is their economy is not productive, and not comnpetetive. And since this is the case, you can bail them out as long as you want - you only sink money in an endlessly deep black hole. Which is the visiuon of many eurocrats for a "united Europe". According to them us evil stupid Germans just have to be the "dukatenscheißender Goldesel Europas", to refer to a popular fairy-tale. Beyond that, we should shut up. And Merkel and Sarkozy - Sarjozy has pulklked her over the table several times in the poast three years, and has got several deals costing german tax payers billions - for the sake of French banks.

One person has way to much control over other cultures and nations. The power to impose their financial will on people with no recourse or objection on the part of the rest of the "union"

Why call it a union? When it really isn't.. No wonder the Brits want to leave.

The Euro-zone and the European union are two different things, although the one backfires on the other. And the Brits cannot leave where they are no member. They are no Euro-member, and they always posed with their resysentiument against Europe of whioch they do not want to be part, but in whoise internal business they nevertheless want to have a word. The British position on the EU is very schizophrenic. Not to mention the Brit rabate and the meaning of the Euro for the financial hotspot City of London. The Euro currency can lethally hurt Britain woithout Britain being a member of the Euro-zone. Seen that way they are stupid to stay out of the Euro, because that way they dfo not have a word in Euro-affairs, as has been dek,knstrated again just days ago when Sarkozy cut short Cameron like a little schoolboy.

I thinkl the bigger folly is to form an economy not on real asserts and productivity, but by depending on just a financial transaction hotspot. If I were a Brit, I would noit enter thge Euro,. but would put all priroity on draconically redesigning the economy, making it less dependant on income produced by the abstract note-juggling in the finance district of London.

On of the big problems in Europe are debts. The other is not Germany being too strong - but the others being too weak. That gap is not to be closed by Germqany doing worse, but by the others doing better. Else all Europe gets eaten by Brasil, India, China, etc. The best performer must be our standard by which to plot our course. And the best ones are GHermany, Auistria, Finland, Latvia, Slowakia, slovenia, all either having a good productivity or a very low debt level. Some of theser also got where they are by suffering dearly when cutting spendings and making soial restructuing in trhe past - and that these countries now are outraged that Greece is getting sugar and cimaron that they have suffered for to produce it, can be understood. This explains for example why Fins are against the Greek bailout, also the Slovenians, I think. They argue that Greece wants for free what they themnselves have reached by their own power.

I can almost compare it to an economical version of a certain Austrian Painters aspirations...

Ah, the Nazi card always trumps, doesn't it. But the "argument" remains what it has been: stupid.

STEED

11-02-11, 04:01 PM

Sorry mate....fresh out of white cotton handkerchiefs and besides, the Germans would smell a rat :DL

They may offer you 1000 whores to keep quite. :shifty:

Jimbuna

11-02-11, 04:09 PM

They may offer you 1000 whores to keep quite. :shifty:

I've more than enough with the one at home :O:

STEED

11-02-11, 04:17 PM

I've more than enough with the one at home :O:

Out comes the rolling pin. :shifty::rotfl2:

Jimbuna

11-02-11, 04:24 PM

Out comes the rolling pin. :shifty::rotfl2:
http://www.olemiss.edu/courses/math268_summer/white_flag.gif

STEED

11-02-11, 04:28 PM

:k_rofl:

JU_88

11-02-11, 04:45 PM

Aren't we uncomfortably close to that already? :o

Nah, the majority of us are alright. :O:

Oberon

11-03-11, 06:03 AM

Looks like Papandreou might not even last until the referendum:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15568915

magic452

11-03-11, 06:27 AM

The way things are going over there maybe we should merge this with the joke thread. :know: :D :damn: :damn:

Magic

Skybird

11-03-11, 06:29 AM

Is it non ly me, when looking over the past couple of years, whenever somebody considers to ask the people for their will on something as basic as national survival, bank bailout, European constitution and European state, bankers and politicians, governments and self-.declared elites immediately blow up and yell: "What? Asking the people? How dare you!"

Interesting understanding of what democracy is, here in Europe. It translates into: "Only ask the people when you are sure they give you the vote that you want. If not, don'T ask, work around asking them, or change the rules. If you were stupid to ask and got not what you wanted, ask again until you get what you want, or ignore the answer and act as if you never have asked."

Way to rule! :yeah:

The Greek constitution allows referendums on issues of utmost national interest, so they say on TV. If their economic and fincial survival, and whether to stay in the EU or not, staying within the Eurozone or not, is not of utmost national interest, then I don't know.

Jimbuna

11-03-11, 06:58 AM

JU_88

11-03-11, 07:42 AM

I've a sneaky suspician the Greek people will opt for the current deal on the table and when it ultimately goes 'belly up' their PM will simply shrug his shoulders and say "It was the will of the people".

The Greek PM looks like is out the door and the refurendum will not go ahead.
His government may have to form an emergency coalition with the opposition until they can hold a general election.
The coalition will likley accept the bail out - IF members of the current opposition agree with the terms and conditions that were drawn up under the current govenment.
I think they will go for it as they dont have time for renegotiation.

Its a mess, and in this case bailouts are not going to fix it, its only going to buy the EU, and indeed everyone abit more time.

On top of the economic crisis, Fears over Iran is starting to make the top headlines again, I dont like it one bit, if Iran are left to their own devices they could potentially start WW3, if Isreal/ USA/ UK attack/invade - that could also potentially spark WW3.
Its almost as if the human race is actually trying to self fullfill its 2012 doomsday prophecies. :(
Oh boy....

Jimbuna

11-03-11, 07:49 AM

The Greek PM looks like is out the door and the refurendum will not go ahead.
His government may have to form an emergency coalition with the opposition until they can hold a general election.
The coalition will likley accept the bail out - IF members of the current opposition agree with the terms and conditions that were drawn up under the current govenment.
I think they will go for it as they dont have time for renegotiation.

Its a mess, and in this case bailouts are not going to fix it, its only going to buy the EU, and indeed everyone abit more time.

If that is the latest Greek position (haven't looked at the news today yet) then yes, your probably correct :yep:

Skybird

11-03-11, 07:55 AM

It seems both Greece politicians and the EU are determined to prolongue the misery for as long as is possible for man, with the EU determined to burn as much money in the process as time allows.

Meanwhile Germany's finance minister made a nice comment that gets quoted in the headlines over here: "I cannot see the number of villas and yachts of the rich in Greece becoming fewer."

This time he has a point. Even more since of the two dominant storehouse chains we have here, Karstadt and Kaufhof-Galleria, the second has received a bit of a Greek rich investor for buying it, completely. The rich elite in Greece seems to be not effected by the crisis.

STEED

11-03-11, 08:03 AM

Starting to look like the vile scum will win out. :damn:

JU_88

11-03-11, 08:13 AM

"I cannot see the number of villas and yachts of the rich in Greece becoming fewer.".

Well it will be the same for any country, Yeah our Governments bail out the wealthy in oder to bail out everyone, but the wealthy will not bail out the governments. perrish the thought! They will squirrel it away to save them selves.
Unfortunatly this is where free enterprise has gotten us. Its a great system isn't it? Well actually it is a pretty good system - until you throw greed in to the mix.

Never before has it been so glaringly obvious as to who is really in the driving seat of the modern world.

Jimbuna

11-03-11, 08:15 AM

Jimbuna

11-03-11, 08:20 AM

Greek Leader 'to offer to resign'

Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou is expected to offer his resignation within the next half-hour, sources in Athens have told the BBC.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/

Oberon

11-03-11, 08:26 AM

STEED

11-03-11, 08:26 AM

Pensioners will freeze to death again this winter as Cameron states he is ready to give more money to the IMF to help out the euro zone. :nope:

Dread Knot

11-03-11, 08:50 AM

Greek state TV just announced Papandreouis not going to resign according to the latest from Greek state TV. According to all the headlines this morning it was almost certain he was going to resign, with the last one saying the announcement was to come in 30 minutes. Then about an hour later, Greek TV said no resignation and he'll make a speech tonight.

Yep, it wouldn't surpise me if at any moment Greek TV goes blank, then comes back on in a few minutes with a nervous looking presenter reading "Communique No. 1". :-?

JU_88

11-03-11, 08:53 AM

So, Papandreou is going to go and most likely be replaced by Lucas Papademos.

So, let's look at this through the eyes of the Greek people...

They were offered a chance to vote on the future of their country, and suddenly the man who offered the vote is being dumped in favour of the leader of their central bank. A man who is not likely to turn down the EU bailout offer, and is, therefore, very likely to cancel the referendum.

Something tells me that the riots are not going to go away by this news...in fact, something tells me that they're going to get worse...

In all this im not actually clear where the Greek people stand, they have so far protested and rioted against austerity messures and bailouts.
Yet so many media sources are reporting that the majority of Greeks dont want to lose the Euro? quite how they established this fact, I dont know?
maybe its true or maybe its propaganda.
But I think the Greeks realise that neither path is going to be paved with roses and they might be having the realisation that sticking out the Euro is actually going to be the more pleasent option.... at aleast in the short term.
They could still vote to quit the Euro later on, but do it in a more controlled manner, rather than a default that could push them in to 1930s style depression. Thats if this rescue package works...

joea

11-03-11, 09:09 AM

Well, I am very glad my parents chose to emigrate to Canada. I am worried sometimes about my sis living in NYC (though I love the Big Apple) but she met her hubby there and made a life and they have a wonderful daughter. I am also glad I came to, at least for now, one of the most stable and well-off countries in Europe to study and then work.

However, as I still have relatives in Greece, I am sick about what is going on. I can't even be mad anymore. Certainly not mad at the Germans, not even their government, well not as much as the Greeks or other institutions.

My wierdest fantasy is that somehow the USS Enterprise loaded with hypnotised Klingon, Romulan and Jem Hadar warriors falls through a wormhole (without any other crew exept Data who is also linked into the ship's computer). The malfunctioning ship's computer beams me aboard, calls me the "creator" and listens to my every command, as do the warriors and Data. Then I would hijack all internet, TV and other mass media and launch my ultimatum. Zap some highly visible but deserted targets like the mothballed ships at Suisun Bay, California (not the Iowa). Then beam the world's political and economic leaders aboard and tell them they have 1 week to present a plan to start fixing things.

P.S. I also hope Mudd's android women are included in the package.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4a/KS%2CMT%2CSD_in_Mudd%27s_Women.jpg

Jimbuna

11-03-11, 09:22 AM

Military coup anyone? :hmmm:

Gerald

11-03-11, 09:31 AM

I do not think it is likely.

STEED

11-03-11, 09:45 AM

He' going...going...going...staying! :o

Greece the master of suspense.

I got the BBC 24 News on and sitting on the edge of my seat!

UPDATE
Prime Minister George Papandreou is not stepping down.

STEED

11-03-11, 09:48 AM

BREAKING NEWS

The Greek referendum has been scrapped!

1448: Reports coming in suggest the proposed referendum has been scrapped.

1451: Two officials close to the Greek prime minister said he had scrapped the idea after the opposition would not back it, AP reports. The leader made the comments in an emergency cabinet meeting earlier.

STEED

11-03-11, 09:58 AM

Minute by minute..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15570986

Jimbuna

11-03-11, 10:14 AM

http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/2328/crysta121.gif

Skybird

11-03-11, 10:29 AM

New ECB president Draghi did what I 100% had expected any Italian or Greek gaining the seat in that office to do - he cut the ECB interest rates.

When the debtors are allowed to run the Central Banks, then you know what to expect from that. The ECB may be called European Central Bank, but Draghi after all is Italian in the first.

Oberon

11-03-11, 11:29 AM

Egads Greece... :damn:

STEED

11-03-11, 11:32 AM

Jimbuna

11-03-11, 11:46 AM

Well then clever clogs what are the UK National Lottery winning numbers this Saturday are? :03:

I rtemember many moons back when the lottery first started, the wife asked me "How much do you win if you get all seven balls"? :DL

Gerald

11-04-11, 01:25 AM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15586673

Jimbuna

11-04-11, 06:44 AM

You know you're Greek when you share a bathroom with your 5 brothers, have no money, but drive a Â£45,000 Audi.

soopaman2

11-04-11, 06:58 AM

You know you're Greek when you share a bathroom with your 5 brothers, have no money, but drive a Â£45,000 Audi.

They do this too to evade taxes.

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/greek-tax-avoidance-101-cover-your-swimming-pool-tarp-fool-satellite

At least the "job creators" are the same all around the world.

Jimbuna

11-04-11, 07:51 AM

Quite crafty but understandable the world over....paying taxes appeals to so very few of us :DL

andritsos

11-04-11, 08:21 AM

nah, military coup is out of question...
its just a move possibly used to cause more confusion within the Greeks because at least here we still remember the 70s etc
anyways now its just again a big mess ( hm, as always) now in Greece. It seems that in the end the referendum wont pass, 4 decemeber was a possible date. Instead we probably go to election, get right wing national governement that will stick up to the same nevertheless. It seems that the latest fuss just pleases speculators...

Eventually this government or the other party 'new democracy' will keep on same route: slowly selling out Greece. Yesterday Papandreou gave a speech but to me did not sound good, or at least still a suspicious in some aspects ( that were reliable ...bla bla. that was an immense feat to take such big loans etc ).
PASOK or NEW DEMOCRACY, things wont change much... this 2-pole-fight and insistence to keep the seat is killing Greece, the Greeks. furthermore, all other little political parties carry some diverse ideas, and /or clearly can't be ready to rule.
IMHO, better that greek people get the referendum, have them have a say ( and see if they will be fooled or not, its up to them).
To me a ''coup d'etat''/something crucial/a sudden change might be needed (when we get to extremes) as until now nothing much has changed, just wages go down, people work less, the system gets less efficient and more CORRUPT ( i have people that experience it), the wrong attitude is still holding, education gets messed up, possible good students cant keep up to university because of increase of cost of life ( and to note, in universities, professors, university founds there is a huge criminality/injustice hidden in backgound) and the whole situation is still getting much worse rather than being reversed. Greeks have to change attitudes and values IMHO in order to reverse such things and corruption, clearly in this way not much is being done.

We have same **** since decade. We need to flush the toilet in order to get rid of it. As its a toilet, eventually it will come again ( better or worse than previous one?) unless something crucial happens.

{If its a secession, and we look back at our recent history, something bad may occur ( unless we do few to none mistakes).
[a strange though i just come up with.my dilemma if i look in bigger picture is: stay on sinking ship, or get out of it risking to be eaten by sharks?]}

STEED

11-04-11, 09:44 AM

EU deal announced

Super soft cotton toilet paper and a Greek to wipe there behinds.

Skybird

11-04-11, 10:49 AM

Berlusconi could launch a career in selling grease and slime. Expert that he is for that, he would make a second fortune that way.

Oberon

11-04-11, 06:02 PM

Looks like Papandreou has squeaked through a vote of no-confidence.

STEED

11-04-11, 06:03 PM

Greek PM George Papandreou has won the vote.

For 153

Against 145

andritsos

11-04-11, 06:05 PM

he just managed to get through the confidence vote, so it seems that nothing major will change, apart the fuss and confusion that was made. seems no referendum and also no elections...

JU_88

11-04-11, 06:29 PM

Berlusconi could launch a career in selling grease and slime.

My dad was round earlier and he almost said the same thing :haha:

Skybird

11-04-11, 07:41 PM

he just managed to get through the confidence vote, so it seems that nothing major will change, apart the fuss and confusion that was made. seems no referendum and also no elections...

It seems the party rebels realised that they would not win early elections now, and so decided to stay in "power".

What now my dear?

Gerald

11-05-11, 04:43 AM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15604169

Jimbuna

11-05-11, 05:44 AM

Looks like Papandreou has squeaked through a vote of no-confidence.

Greek PM George Papandreou has won the vote.

For 153

Against 145

I was extremely sad and sat up watching the vote take place live :-?

TarJak

11-05-11, 06:14 AM

Its still not looking good though for the deal. I've got a feeling Greece will be Europe's Argentina in less than a year.

Jimbuna

11-05-11, 06:19 AM

Its still not looking good though for the deal. I've got a feeling Greece will be Europe's Argentina in less than a year.

Well, without this latest bailout amount it is thought the country would be bankrupt by the end of this year :o

STEED

11-05-11, 09:53 AM

I was extremely sad and sat up watching the vote take place live :-?

I was buying time waiting for Family Guy. :haha:

andritsos

11-05-11, 10:06 AM

What now my dear?

Dont know, still big mess, surely more political rallies. I'll have to check on greek channel when i can what developments we have. at least watch their news.
At the moment nothing significant on greek channel, just a summer documentary etc ...

Jimbuna

11-05-11, 02:07 PM

I was buying time waiting for Family Guy. :haha:

LOL :DL

Skybird

11-05-11, 02:33 PM

The head of a German economist lobby organisation said that the Greek government should prepare IN ALL SECRECY a return to the drachme, and bring it back over the christmas holidays. The country'S borders would be needed to be closed, all traffic in and out being stopped, all banking actions interrupted, in order to prevent a massive banking rush and panic sales and people storming the banks to get back their old savings. Printing the new notes would take three days.

It is also reported that in Cannes, Obama, Cameron and Sarkozy tried to get access to the nations' central bank'S currency reserves and especially the German Bundesbank'S gold reserve, and that Merkel even was willing to give in. It was only the head of the (still) independent (for howlong anbymore?) Bundesbank that blocked that move, so that she had top say No. . He is said to be under very heavy fire now to make him giving up the golds reserves. Merkel is outraged over him.

The follies know no limits, madness on rampage.

Jimbuna

11-05-11, 03:18 PM

"IN ALL SECRECY".....love it :DL

TarJak

11-05-11, 03:21 PM

"IN ALL SECRECY".....love it :DLShhh! don't tell anyone.:03:

Jimbuna

11-05-11, 03:36 PM

Shhh! don't tell anyone.:03:

Best switch off the SS server before the cat gets out of the bag :DL

@Sky....was Merkel really willing to give in I mean, what would be in it for Germany? :hmmm:

Gerald

11-05-11, 04:50 PM

Not much, I would say, Germans learn to shell out a lot in the banking system....

Jimbuna

11-05-11, 04:59 PM

Not much, I would say, Germans learn to shell out a lot in the banking system....

Really ?

Coming from a long term 'neutral' that doesn't hold a load lot of weight :hmmm:

Skybird

11-05-11, 07:52 PM

@Sky....was Merkel really willing to give in I mean, what would be in it for Germany? :hmmm:
There is a deep-rootinjg desire in the German intelligenzia to dismantle Germany and let it merge into a bigger state of Europe that is given birth by Germany'S heroic and path-leading self-sacrifice. Our Greens say they crave for the day when Germany will not be any German anymore (original quote), and that they like it the better the less German it is (original quote), our conservatives in parts want Germany to lose the meaning of a state and being formed into the first cell of the new European superstate (original quote), our socialists want no states at all and especially Germany being the first to get forgotten as a national entity, since thousand years of history mean nothing but 15 years of tyranny mean everything and thus Germany is evil from top to bottom and not worth to be remembered; they want the socialistically inspired planned economy with x-years-plans made in Brussel which serves as their holy grail of how to heal Europe, and our communists, well, you can imagine what they are wanting.

Yes, Merkel was serious. And the story is not yet over. The next EU-meeting tomorrow will raise the demand again, and the chancellor's office is said to fight bitterly with the stubborn Bundesbank president currently, to make him comply. Merkel installed the new president herself, he was a close adviser to her and she hoped he would be a puppet in the federal bank obeying her commands. That is why many fear that he will not hold out in his resistence, but sooner or later give up. His predecessor already gave up in protest and despair over politicians trying to destroy the bank's independence, both the ECB and the German Federal Bank. That'S why you do not see him in the ECB chief position now (he was agreed upon throughout Europe due to his stressing of stability and debt-control), but Draghi, who is quite the opposite of the former German candidate and immediately lowered the interest rates already on his first day.

I say this serious: the Germasn are not rational, when it comes to Europe, and romanticism and illusions control their decisions to quite some degree. Optimists say that could serve as a motivation for the "European project", whatever that means. Realists like me just stick to the obvious conclusion and just call it decisions based on irrationality, emotions, and romantic dreaming. It goes withiout need to mentioning it that it already serves as an invitation to others to suck our blood that we so voluntarily distribute for free.

I wish we would go back 200 years and start searching the blue flower again. Would be less costly to us, and still more satisfying for our sentiments, and would create some good prose. Contemporary German literature - is a sad state of affairs. Das Volk der Dichter und Denker - don'T see much of that anymore.

Germans tick differently. I do not mean that as a joke. If I have learned one thing here in these forums over the past ten years, then this. Do not compare us to the British or the French. We are Romantiker - that formed some of the most influential cultural treasury in the world, helped to trigger two world wars, and now makes us sacrificing ourselves over illusions of a better world to make. Which is a contradiction, because in principle Germans are no people overly enthusiastic over foreigners. It's still that feeling of guilt for WWII, I assume. And a wide gap between our self-declared pseudo-elites and political establishement, and the people.

Gerald

11-06-11, 06:16 AM

Really ?

Coming from a long term 'neutral' that doesn't hold a load lot of weight :hmmm: Not? There are differences in the background that one should keep in mind before you embark on this, primarily, the neutrality is not something that needs to be touched in this context, Germany and Sweden have very good trade partners both now and earlier, and strong ties in various areas, personally I do not think that the EU will have to take the hit Greece in this manner, when the country when entering 2003 ... if I remember correctly, was not even fly to get into, that they "cheated" to enter the EU. . this whole business of the Union and countries that do not meet budget targets, the country's population must pay the prize,which means that Brussels has failed to hold it together when it really counts certainly was not good before this happened either.

Skybird

11-06-11, 06:31 AM

... if I remember correctly, was not even fly to get into, that they "cheated" to enter the EU. . this whole business of the Union and countries that do not meet budget targets, the country's population must pay the prize,which means that Brussels has failed to hold it together when it really counts certainly was not good before this happened either.

The Greeks lied about their status back then, yes, and they forged their numbers.

But many in Brussel knew it, but welcomed the lies nevertheless and bought them. They wanted their ideologic pet-project being turned into reality no matter the numbers, no matter the facts, no matter the consequences, no matter the warnings by reason. Everybody who wanted to knowl, could have known. It's not as if their economy had been less corrupt and less inefficient and lacking productivity back then than it has been some years later.

Politicians. Stupidity. Narcism. There I is not a single name I could mention in this or any of the past lets say 5 German cabinets that I had respected or trusted. Not one single name.

When somebody puts ideology over reality, then you know that it is time to either kill him, or to grab up your things and run as fast as you can. And throw some mines behind you, in case he starts running after you.

Jimbuna

11-06-11, 07:04 AM

Thanks for a most informative response Sky...I never realised it was that bad...most concerning from a German perspective.

Gerald

11-06-11, 07:06 AM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15609456

Jimbuna

11-06-11, 07:14 AM

He has previously labelled the PM "dangerous" for Greece and demanded immediate elections.

A bit of an understatement I suspect :hmmm:

STEED

11-06-11, 07:58 AM

The Greeks lied about their status back then, yes, and they forged their numbers.

But many in Brussel knew it, but welcomed the lies nevertheless and bought them.

Sounds like the EU. :rotfl2:

Dose this mean Turkey are saints as they are always turned down to join the EU. :hmmm:

Jimbuna

11-06-11, 08:09 AM

Sounds like the EU. :rotfl2:

Dose this mean Turkey are saints as they are always turned down to join the EU. :hmmm:

They haven't run up enough debts to warrant admission yet :DL

STEED

11-06-11, 08:14 AM

They haven't run up enough debts to warrant admission yet :DL

Turkey's debt $329,065,479,452

Source http://www.economist.com/content/global_debt_clock

Jimbuna

11-06-11, 08:35 AM

Turkey's debt $329,065,479,452

Source http://www.economist.com/content/global_debt_clock

Nearly as much as Greece....perhaps the EU should reconsider :DL

STEED

11-06-11, 08:40 AM

As long as they fiddle the figures and kiss a$$ they maybe in.

Torplexed

11-06-11, 08:42 AM

Hey everybody! Get your new Greek neo-drachmas. Hot off the presses.

http://www.widescope.net/images/monopoly-money.jpg

Well, we're not there yet, but the currency will be worth about as much. :nope:

STEED

11-06-11, 08:44 AM

Torplexed

11-06-11, 09:07 AM

500 bill to wipe you behind on, as long as it's soft. :haha:

Or roll yourself some whacky-tabbacky which you'll need to ease the pain of the coming insanity. :dead:

Jimbuna

11-06-11, 10:05 AM

I'm currently stockpiling my currency needs.

http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/6328/50small.gif (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/835/50small.gif/)

Oberon

11-06-11, 10:13 AM

I'm currently stockpiling my currency needs.

http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/6328/50small.gif (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/835/50small.gif/)

What's one of them? :hmmm:

Jimbuna

11-06-11, 10:32 AM

What's one of them? :hmmm:

A smaller one of these :DL

http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/5816/50large.gif (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/853/50large.gif/)

Jimbuna

11-06-11, 05:03 PM

The Greek PM is to stand down (no sprises there then) and new successor eill be chosen tomorrow and a coalition government will be formed soon after.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15614883

soopaman2

11-06-11, 05:06 PM

The Greek PM is to stand down (no sprises there then) and new successor eill be chosen tomorrow and a coalition government will be formed soon after.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15614883

So Germany and France just conquered Greece?

Neville Chamberlain would be proud.

Jimbuna

11-06-11, 05:19 PM

LOL :DL

I reckon the Greeks are doing a pretty good job defeating themselves :DL

andritsos

11-06-11, 06:03 PM

I bet will be someone like a banker etc, or directly related to a bank. Now Bankers rule europe...

Jimbuna

11-06-11, 06:26 PM

I bet will be someone like a banker etc, or directly related to a bank. Now Bankers rule europe...

There has been speculation that the new coalition could be led by Finance Minister Evangelos Venizelos.

andritsos

11-06-11, 06:48 PM

Heard of, but i don't think so. I heard a name around but can't remember now, surely i had to remember who was as i never listenened of him in quite sometime in tv etc ( but i live outside of greece so i cant follow very properly)
It's terrifying to note though that the only times our politicians work hard ( get to work properly in time and do extra hours at late evening night ) are when they seem to get ready to sell our country.

Jimbuna

11-06-11, 06:57 PM

It's terrifying to note though that the only times our politicians work hard ( get to work properly in time and do extra hours at late evening night ) are when they seem to get ready to sell our country.

Politicians the world over I'm afraid :nope:

Torplexed

11-06-11, 07:34 PM

I'm wondering if Greece even matters any more because it looks like Italy is about to go Greek, and it's not only Too Big to Fail, but Too Big to Save. Italy's yields just blew out and the spread against German debt has reached an all time high. So much has gone on that it all runs together in my head, but there was a crisis several months ago where Italian yields blew out, and the ECB stepped in and starting buying it. That sticksave tamped down the yield but now they're blowing out again. Meanwhile, they've sent in the IMF to police Italy's books, and I think the government has lost majority support, and there are protests. Going Greek indeed. And while all that is going on, the Italian PM isn't exactly inspiring confidence.

Keeping the Eurozone from going asunder is like a game of Whack-a-Mole where the moles get progressively bigger and nastier.

Jimbuna

11-06-11, 08:11 PM

Torplexed

11-06-11, 08:30 PM

Looking bleak and read a confirmation here:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/8873041/Europes-rescue-fiasco-leaves-Italy-defenceless.html

Interesting (and chilling) stuff there.

Europe's attempt to widen the creditor net by drawing in the world's reserve states evoked near universal scorn in Cannes and a damning put-down by Brazil's Dilma Rousseff. "I have not the slightest intention of contributing directly to the EFSF; if they are not willing to do it, why should I?"
Brazil doesn't want to join the biggest Ponzi Scheme of all time? I can't imagine why. :D

Jimbuna

11-07-11, 03:14 AM

I think it may be possible the China take a slice of the action but they'll exact a huge price at a time of their choosing in the future.

TarJak

11-07-11, 03:54 AM

Jimbuna

11-07-11, 08:48 AM

Papandreou has fallen on his sword. his won't be the only ploitcal scalp in this mess. http://www.smh.com.au/business/world-business/pm-to-stand-down-in-deal-to-save-greece-20111107-1n2fp.html

I understand it's a race to the bottom for Greece, Italy, Spain and Portugal. With four states in dire trouble, I'd say the EU is just about finished as a viable financial entity.

I heard from one tv source the Italion debt alone of over 2 Trillion Euro is supposed to be bigger than all the money Germany and France etc. could possibly call on :o

Dread Knot

11-07-11, 08:59 AM

The first step in getting out of a hole is to stop digging.

Yet, EU ministers are scouring the globe looking for more warm bodies to bring their shovels. Crazy.

Skybird

11-07-11, 10:05 AM

I heard from one tv source the Italion debt alone of over 2 Trillion Euro is supposed to be bigger than all the money Germany and France etc. could possibly call on :o
Fance and Germany are beyond the 2 trillion barrier as well. The thing to also look at is how that compares to the GDP.

Debts as % of GDP:

Germany: 75%
France: 82%
Italy: 118%
Greece: 128%

Debt levels between 65% and 80% are often mentioned to be a critical treshhold criterion for a national economy beyond which it cannot recover from its debt burden by its own power. That'S why practcially all industrial key players in the West and North must be seen as being in a critical state, with Brasil (59%) and India (56%) being close to that lower treshhold, and China (17%) being quite distant from reaching that level. The UK's special vulnerability, although having a %/GDP of 75, is its crushing dependency on the financial industry as a major inbcome generator, since this sector is paperwork only and produces no real assets. It is fictional wealth, or a potential bubble; that'S why England is seen as one of the worryingly sick men in Europe (and that'S why it fights so bitterly against fiances market regulations that would hit it's main income generator: the London stockmarket). The US with even just 61% is crushed by the tsunamic total debts value it has stockpiled.

Japan has almost 200%.

England's big vulnerability is the London stockmarket, like Germany's archilles heel is its heavy dependency on exports. That both states get these things reversed and eased, to me is one of the economic key issues in Europe. But instead both do not look beyond just the next budget and have no intention to form a longterm strategy with the needed reorientation, and so both try to press the pedal even deeper to the metal while staying on course.

Both will make spectacular dots on the wall.

andritsos

11-07-11, 11:30 AM

In greece i have hard strong rumours that Mr Papademos will substitute him and become head of government until elections. Still not sure yet.
And waiting confirmation of elections in 19th of February

I agree that Europe doesnt exist anymore as a concept in economy but and also that the idea of europe that founding fathers had its getting away day by day.

Jimbuna

11-07-11, 11:43 AM

Wouldn't it be easier if Greece simply left the Eurozone and everyone just cut their losses?

andritsos

11-09-11, 02:33 PM

Wouldn't it be easier if Greece simply left the Eurozone and everyone just cut their losses?

I would really hope to some extent. Can't stand to this anymore. Now 3rd day with negotiations breakdowns for new government.
Now that i think of it. It won't be easier, it will be surely tough all the same.
What interests do these actions that will be made reflect/represent the interests of Greece/its people or someone's else/ outsiders/few people? Still we are a mess, in many aspects now. Have to learn from it and pay for the mistakes . The problem is that we will have to pay for such mistakes and its inevitable, unless we put such weight to others( hope not) . Anyways we just postponed( maybe still doing) deeper trouble for next generations.
Though firstly all politician class have to make a radical change of route. Political class mainly ( other parts too) need to a refresh and reorganise (Basically the first thing that Greece needs IMHO since years)
anyways now bipolarism i think its still hurting country: part in the PASOK-ND, are talkking for the seat, rather else.... anyways whatever they do , seems inneffective.

STEED

11-09-11, 02:37 PM

Wouldn't it be easier if Greece simply left the Eurozone and everyone just cut their losses?

Should have done that on day one. :yep:

Jimbuna

11-09-11, 03:41 PM

Should have done that on day one. :yep:

Precisely :yep:

Sailor Steve

11-09-11, 03:51 PM

You know, every time I see the title to this thread my mind hears it as "Ewwwww Deal".
:rotfl2:

Jimbuna

11-09-11, 03:57 PM

You know, every time I see the title to this thread my mind hears it as "Ewwwww Deal".
:rotfl2:

'EWE' as in sheep because they all seem to be following one another :doh:

Sailor Steve

11-09-11, 04:02 PM

'EWE' as in sheep because they all seem to be following one another :doh:
Well, that too, but I was thinking "Eww" as in "yuck" when you see something disgusting.

Jimbuna

11-09-11, 04:09 PM

Well, that too, but I was thinking "Eww" as in "yuck" when you see something disgusting.

'Disgusting' is probably a better descriptive term :DL

Torplexed

11-09-11, 09:01 PM

Lest anyone things are only bad in Europe, it appears that Jefferson County in Alabama has voted to file for bankruptcy. This will be the biggest municipal bankruptcy in US history (Chapter 9 is the one for minus) -- over $40 billion.

It's like we're all Greece and we're all Italy now. Uncle Sam has $10.2T debt (and rising like a rocket) held by the public outstanding, total $15T (just under, but it will cross $15T in a few days). Imagine what 7% rates would do to us. And its coming if we don't mend our ways. Bondzilla is coming for us all. :dead:

Jimbuna

11-10-11, 05:58 AM

In graphics: The eurozone's crisis

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-13366011

STEED

11-10-11, 02:17 PM

In graphics: The eurozone's crisis

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-13366011

All lies, it's worst than that. :03:

soopaman2

11-10-11, 02:23 PM

Wouldn't it be easier if Greece simply left the Eurozone and everyone just cut their losses?

Seems an easy solution to a complicated problem.

Shouldn't the bankers who cooked The PIIGS books be held accountable? After all, it was EU endorsed banksters who did the audits on these nations before letting them in. The more nations in it the stronger, so we cook the books and hope we can equalize elsewheres.

More "blame the victim"? (like they do here in America)

Greece was wearing a short skirt, she wanted it.

Skybird

11-10-11, 02:35 PM

Shouldn't the bankers who cooked The PIIGS books be held accountable?
The Greeks just made the architect of the Greek Euro membership their new prime minister.

Any questions?

STEED

11-10-11, 02:37 PM

The Greeks just made the architect of the Greek Euro membership their new prime minister.

Any questions?

Yes...Is he honest?

soopaman2

11-10-11, 02:44 PM

The Greeks just made the architect of the Greek Euro membership their new prime minister.

Any questions?

Seriously?

I'm with Sailor Steve "Yuck"

So Brussels is not to blame, at all, completely free of fault?:O:

Reagan says trust, but verify...Looks like some of the money wizards didn't do their homework. Once again, blame who?

It was agenda driven, quantity over quality. Now we are all paying.

JU_88

11-10-11, 02:48 PM

Bondzilla is coming for us all. :dead:

That is the unfortunate truth, all the 'fixes' we see: bail outs, QE, write offs, Austerity messures, are not fixing anything - it is mereley delaying the unstoppeable chain of events that will lead us to a global depression that will go down in history.
Fasten your seatbelts because unless you are millionare, 2012 is going to be a stinker! :nope:

Skybird

11-10-11, 02:51 PM

Seriously?

Yes. And European governments even applaud and welcome him back!

Once close buddies, always close buddies.

soopaman2

11-10-11, 02:55 PM

Yes. And European governments even applaud and welcome him back!

Once close buddies, always close buddies.

Just goes to show that corruption is not even hidden anymore.:cry:

It is like that here too, don't fret sir.:wah:

Except we can't kick poor states out. Weird American thing I guess.:D

Kinda like how our politicians get jobs at Goldman Sachs when they leave office......Oh I get it..:salute:

JU_88

11-10-11, 03:07 PM

Wouldn't it be easier if Greece simply left the Eurozone and everyone just cut their losses?

Dont matter if they leave or stay, without bailouts they will still default and then the dominos will still fall.

TarJak

11-10-11, 03:28 PM

Yes...Is he honest?:har:

That is the unfortunate truth, all the 'fixes' we see: bail outs, QE, write offs, Austerity messures, are not fixing anything - it is mereley delaying the unstoppeable chain of events that will lead us to a global depression that will go down in history.
Fasten your seatbelts because unless you are millionare, 2012 is going to be a stinker! :nope:
I hate to say it but I have to agree with you on that prediction. I think even millionares will be hit hard as most of their cash is tied up in bonds and stocks that are going to crash along with the rest of the rotten house.

Billionares will probably be OK though.:88)

Bring on the zombie apocalypse I say.:arrgh!:

JU_88

11-10-11, 03:31 PM

Well while we are ont he subject of blaming the Greeks...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iheZM6VBJfE
:D

TarJak

11-10-11, 03:33 PM

LOL , well the Irish are hardly blameless either so FT can't talk.:D

Jimbuna

11-10-11, 06:21 PM

LOL :DL

soopaman2

11-10-11, 06:33 PM

Lets just eat the rich.

You guys start on your rich, and we will let you know when we get to Bill Gates ankles.

may take awhile, he has alot of protection.

Sailor Steve

11-10-11, 07:19 PM

Yes...Is he honest?
Of course he is.

Just ask him. :D

Skybird

11-10-11, 07:22 PM

Link: The penny drops at least in Europe (http://www.cityam.com/news-and-analysis/allister-heath/the-penny-drops-last-europe)

The best way to understand the current increase in Italian, Spanish and increasingly French yields is that risk is finally starting to be priced rationally again; markets now realise that some countries are more likely to default or quit the euro than others. Default doesn't necessitate real insolvency: Italy is a rich country with lots of assets. Yet a country can go bust if its political system is broken or its electorate wedded to silly policies.

But this increased realism is already turning into panic. Investors are beginning to comprehend that debt levels in several countries are simply not affordable at proper interest rates.

As the penny drops, it will become ever more obvious that the euro's launch was one of the greatest political and economic blunders of modern times.

Jimbuna

11-10-11, 07:29 PM

Starting to get concerned about my investments :hmmm:

soopaman2

11-10-11, 07:29 PM

Link: The penny drops at least in Europe (http://www.cityam.com/news-and-analysis/allister-heath/the-penny-drops-last-europe)

As a German, and being the main bondholders on the Euro, do you believe that?

I feel (as an American) we are getting screwed by the PIIGS. (all of us) How does the German citizen feel?

Why does Merkel fight so hard for the Euro.

My cousin has a theory about this, but the similarities to the Anchluss (pardon my spelling) would "Godwin" the thread, but the point is made, and somewhat valid.

So why do certain nations hold on so hard, and nations like Britain run away?

Jimbuna

11-10-11, 07:43 PM

Skybird

11-10-11, 07:50 PM

As a German, and being the main bondholders on the Euro, do you believe that?

I feel (as an American) we are getting screwed by the PIIGS. (all of us) How does the German citizen feel?

Why does Merkel fight so hard for the Euro.

My cousin has a theory about this, but the similarities to the Anchluss (pardon my spelling) would "Godwin" the thread, but the point is made, and somewhat valid.

So why do certain nations hold on so hard, and nations like Britain run away?
Jim asked me the same some days ago, and I gave him an answer, some pages earlier.

However, the Brits do not run away - they are not part of the Euro, and they pose since all beginning with their distanced attitude towards the EU, claiming that it were them saving Europoe and the EU from itself. You cannot run from what you never have been a real part of.

Anyhow, I more and more think that a split of the Eurozone, and a split in the EU as well, is becoming inevitable, and will take place this way or the other way. The truth becomes so obvious these days that you cannot deny it endlessly without being brought to a psychiatry. The only question is how much damage Merkel and Sarkozy will allow to take place to their national finances in attempts to delay it any longer. And France'S needs to pay dangerously high interests on its credits now, too, it is definitely in danger. The split should be realised before next German elections, because it is possible that the socialists will take over from Merkel, and they already have voiced repeatedly that they want to sacrifice German finances to save all EU members and all Euro members and that the EU treaties should be changed to no longer forbid bailing out other nations, but to make it legally binding for Germany to bail others out - without limit. And then I fear even worse - and to do worse than orientationless, opportunistic Merkel - that really means something.

And how the German citizen feels? Betrayed. Most of us never wanted the Euro. We also do not want the many bailouts of banks and other nations. We guarantee for bond securities that even by just the "white", official numbers surpass our yearly national budget - and ciritcs show calculations that reveal that the hidden numbers indeed could show to be three times as high than is being admitted by the government.

That'S why the government avoids it like the plague to ask us. It is rumoured that a new, Euro-critical party is about to be set up, a project guided by a well-known former head of the industry and business chamber with quite some sober and rational thoughts. If that party would be formed, the election analysts say that it probably would get 25-35% of the votes from starting line on, immediately, basing on representative polls they did on that since early summer. The remarkable thing is that these polls show a stable share of around 30% - it is not just one singular random poll.

Germans are pretty much fed up with the Euro, I think that is pretty fair to say. The gap between the people and the political caste is very, very wide.

The EU already is miscionstructed beyond all imagination. The majority settings are set so insane that you cannot believe it. Germany pays for a quarter of the EU budget, but has just 2 of the 23 election votes in the ECB control gremium. Malta and I think Slovenia (or was it some other small state, Cyprus maybe) together pay even less than 0.3% of that budget - but together also bring in 2 votes although financially being 80 times less important for the EU budget !?

Such gremiums should represent actual realities. Not misled leftist feverdreams of how equal the dwarf is to the giant. Nothing against Malta, but the EU would not feel it if it would seize to exist over night. Now try to say that over France, Germany! You get what I mean, do you. The German key personnell has all retired from the ECB in frustration, the candidate for the new presdiednt'S chair even withdraw his candidacy in advance, one could even say: Merkel's policies of ignoring obvious realities and increasing the damage to Germany almost mobbed them out.The result is that the weak, even unimportant players have the say there and that the German financial stability culture that once was admired in the D-Mark and the Bundesbank and that was said to be the example for the ECB to follow, has no chance anymore. French Trichet gave it up and started the killing of the ECB's independence. Italian Draghi continues on that course, and at increased pace it seems, turning it into a european Fed and switching on the money-printing machines. We lost the D-Mark due to French demand as a price for reunification. But we got nothing adequate in return, the ECB is not, and the Europ is not. It is said these days that Germany would profit from the Euro mkore than any other country, that it helped the economy. But that is not really correct. Our economy helped itself - by doing its homework and having chnaged certain structural problems that other nations did not tackle so far. As a result our economy is more productive and competitive than that of many others. But even our economy is now stalling. - Just two days ago a national lobby of exporting business in germany said that the Euzro ghets massively overestimated nby the government as a factor for the boom of the past years. Business says it would not fear that miuch a return to the D-Mark, than the government says it would be feared. In other words: business is judging by realities it faces, numbers, but the govenment forms its decisions for the EU on the basis of ideology over what is wanted to be politically build and named "EU".

Why political Germany is insane like that? Read my reply to Jim: #134, page 9. Merkel's trick so far was to equal the EU with Europe, and the Euro with the EU: "if the Euro fails, then fails the EU, then fails peace and stability in europe." Of course that is Quatsch. The EU lived long before the Europ came along, and it lived better and was more stable and potent to act, than later, when it had invited so many egoist cooks into the EU kitchen that everybody stands an everybody else's feet. Peace we had due to the threat from outside that made NATO to stand together, and the shared experiences of WWII.