SH3 Globe

[PapaKilo]

I would like to know how much bigger is SH3 globe compared to real world ?

1 km Sh3 = ? km RL

[Pisces]

Well, there is no such thing as a SH3 Globe.

The real world and the SH3 world have different shapes. The coordinates in the SH3 world (and SH4 and 5 I think) are basically the latitude and longitude axis on the globe. But the SH3 world is a flat rectangular plane, whereas the real world is a sphere (-like) shape. On the SH3 map the north and south pole regions are stretched out to the same size as the equator. (0 meters becomes 43200 km ... :o ) So you can't really compare both distances. Meridians on the SH3 map never come together at the poles, like they do in the real world. So horizontal distances on the SH3 map can NOT be compared to horizontal (East-West) distances in the real world. And compass headings don't match either in most cases.

That said, the game uses 120000 game-meters (or 120 'game kilometers') for each degree along the latitude and longitude axis. If you measure distances from a point to the Greenwich Meridian (vertical line through London) and to the equator (horizontal in the middle of the map), then divide those by 120, then you'll get the latitude and longitude degrees which you can use to locate on a real map, or Google Earth for example.

According to this Wiki page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equator#Exact_length_of_the_Equator) the length of the equator is around 40075 km. But according to the above scale, in the SH3 world it would be 43200km. From north to south pole would be 21600 km on the map, and in the real world it is about 40008 km.

The question is, what do you want to do with these distances and coordinates?

p.s. nautical miles (like for speed) in the game are just like the real value: 1 NM = 1852 meters

[PapaKilo]

Crap, this is not going to work as I planned then :(

The thing is I got bored to play the old way so decided to try something new :)

I'm doing some sort of experiment: My Boat is U-642, I'm in second war patrol, that looks like this: http://www.uboat.net/boats/patrols/patrol_1916.html

Now that gives an option to track daily U-boat positions by cooridantes. I already made an analogical course by those coordinates in my Google Earth, but when I started to mark positions of waypoints of the game I see huge difference from what is in Google Earth (GE) and in the SH3.

I compared eguator lenght's from GE and SH3 and it gave me huge difference:

From my calculations I see:

SH3 equator length is: 43154 Km

GE -//- : 40000

Meridian had less noticable differences than equator.

So what I had in mind was to get the value of the difference and make adjustments setting up waypoints so that it would at least look close to reality as much as possible. However due to the fact that the map is plain and in whole width we have equatorial lenght I guess it's going to benot that easy to make, or even impossible:

[Pisces]

I made several additions to my message above while you were typing yours. So you may have missed that.

[PapaKilo]

Hold on, there are no nautical miles in SH3 right ?

[Pisces]

Crap, this is not going to work as I planned then :(

The thing is I got bored to play the old way so decided to try something new :)

I'm doing some sort of experiment: My Boat is U-642, I'm in second war patrol, that looks like this: http://www.uboat.net/boats/patrols/patrol_1916.html

Now that gives an option to track daily U-boat positions by cooridantes. I already made an analogical course by those coordinates in my Google Earth, but when I started to mark positions of waypoints of the game I see huge difference from what is in Google Earth (GE) and in the SH3.

I compared eguator lenght's from GE and SH3 and it gave me huge difference:

From my calculations I see:

SH3 equator length is: 73990 Km

GE -//- : 40000

Meridian had less noticable differences than equator.

So what I had in mind was to get the value of the difference and make adjustments setting up waypoints so that it would at least look close to reality as much as possible. However due to the fact that the map is plain and in whole width we have equatorial lenght I guess it's going to benot that easy to make, or even impossible:If you measured 73990 km then I think you did something wrong. Or screen resolution messes up with map window size, possibly related to screen aspect ratio. Maybe it is showing 2 maps side by side, or the Pacific is much larger due to extra margins on the side. Either way, I got my values from the Scenario editor, and checked them in my game just now again. It's definitely 432000 km east to west, and 21600km north to south.

Your idea has been suggested before, but it's use would be limited. The path would look weird in GE nearer to the poles (different compass headings, and much more compressed east-to-west), and the time and distances would not match your actual in game speeds. But for example, Heligoland is where it is supposed to be on the SH3 map.

[PapaKilo]

Sorry I made a mistake there with equator :)

images of what I'm into:

http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/6484/12523546.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/638/12523546.jpg/)

How it should be..

http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/159/sh3d.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/41/sh3d.jpg/)

And where it ends in the game..


:nope:

[Pisces]

Sorry I made a mistake there with equator :)

images of what I'm into:

...

How it should be..

...

And where it ends in the game..


:nope:I don't get it. What's stopping you? How it should be, and where it ends. The difference is just perseverance in calculating coordinate conversions and laying that out on the map.

Waypoints on the map are found in savegamename.map file in the My_Documents\SH3\data\cfg\Careers\_CommanderName_\ _PatrolNumber_ folder under the [Waypoint] block, like:


[Waypoint]
PointsNb=4
Pt0=616151.47,7781153.31,-9.68
Pt1=609641.38,7806604.00,0.00
Pt2=498241.50,7858804.00,0.00
Pt3=282241.50,7746804.00,0.00

So using an excel sheet to convert the numbers and saving it to txt table (CSV format) might make it easier on you to insert your waypoint on the map.

[Pisces]

Hold on, there are no nautical miles in SH3 right ?What do you think "knots" are? Hint: naut's per hour

But you are right in thinking there are no nautical mile rulers to measure with.

[PapaKilo]

I don't get it. What's stopping you? How it should be, and where it ends. The difference is just perseverance in calculating coordinate conversions and laying that out on the map.

Ehm.. I'm not sure how should I make distance between waypoints in SH3 look like in GE ? :doh:

If I knew how much should I adjust scale for SH map to mirror the correct distance of waypoints of GE it would be the end of problem

Currently I'm half sober, so it might be true that I'm speaking nonsence at the moment :D

Waypoints on the map are found in savegamename.map file in the My_Documents\SH3\data\cfg\Careers\_CommanderName_\ _PatrolNumber_ folder under the [Waypoint] block, like:


[Waypoint]
PointsNb=4
Pt0=616151.47,7781153.31,-9.68
Pt1=609641.38,7806604.00,0.00
Pt2=498241.50,7858804.00,0.00
Pt3=282241.50,7746804.00,0.00

So using an excel sheet to convert the numbers and saving it to txt table (CSV format) might make it easier on you to insert your waypoint on the map.

I wish I knew how to make this ? My ignorance in excel knowledge is miserable :oops:

[PapaKilo]

What do you think "knots" are? Hint: naut's per hour

But you are right in thinking there are no nautical mile rulers to measure with.

Yeah.. it's tragicomedy. They gave us knots without nautical miles ruler :shifty:

Just thinking about all of this puts me in despair

[Gerald]

Should you use the folder,to sail around the world, with the SH3?,:hmmm:

[PapaKilo]

Should you use the folder,to sail around the world, with the SH3?,:hmmm:

I'm sorry, but what do you have in mind with: "use the folder" thing ? :)

[Gerald]

I'm sorry, but what do you have in mind with: "use the folder" thing ? :) CHART! Better...

[PapaKilo]

CHART! Better...


Not that it had something to do with problems we discuss here :)

[Gerald]

Not that it had something to do with problems we discuss here :) So you've got a solution, above, you got a statement which attests to that fact, the SH3 can not be compared with a standard chart, I suggest you google up a suitable solution.

[PapaKilo]

So you've got a solution, above, you got a statement which attests to that fact, the SH3 can not be compared with a standard chart, I suggest you google up a suitable solution.

Yes! the fact is - SH3 can not be compared with a standard chart.

Do you mind explaining how on earth google could solve this issue ? :dead:

[Gerald]

Google Earth, you see things in another perspective, I have sailed in all the water in the SH3, and there's no getting 'round the world' as it is with Google Earth, I'd probably find a solution, but not just so here, but requires estimates of the mathematical kind, when you wanted to compare in kilometers.

[PapaKilo]

Google Earth, you see things in another perspective, I have sailed in all the water in the SH3, and there's no getting 'round the world' as it is with Google Earth, I'd probably find a solution, but not just so here, but requires estimates of the mathematical kind, when you wanted to compare in kilometers.

"round the world" was not a problem in SH3 when I made a test mission. Once you run into the end of the map in one side, you show up in another..

[Gerald]

"round the world" was not a problem in SH3 when I made a test mission. Once you run into the end of the map in one side, you show up in another..
Something like that,:yep:

[Pisces]

Yeah.. it's tragicomedy. They gave us knots without nautical miles ruler :shifty:

Just thinking about all of this puts me in despairNo fear, as there are wheels to be here:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=114351

Actually, ....HERE:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=321

[PapaKilo]

Something like that,:yep:

If you get the whole idea, I assume you understand that oval earth can be showned as flat on a paper map but in correct OVAL shaping. However in SH3 earth map is plain square, where the lenght of equator is the same as pole circle for instance. On google earth everything looks ok.

But the question is: If SH3 map is "bigger" than Earth itself we have, is it possible to accordingly increase distances between waypoints accuratly to mimic true distances as if they were in RL, but in game ?

I imagine it is hellova job and yeah, that requests good mathematical skills too :06:

Math was never my mate in school BTW :yep:

[PapaKilo]

No fear, as there are wheels to be here:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=114351

Actually, ....HERE:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=321

Frankly I already have this tool that comes together with OLCG2 environment mod. IIRC it's job is an alternative for ZielKursWinkel ?
To calculate speed, course, etc ? I always rely on Zielkurwinkel to get all the data I need. Actually I never bother getting true target course, relying on my own eyes to put my boat on interception course.. :)

But how it is related to nautical miles anyway ? :hmmm:


GUYS! as I already mentioned I might sound strange tonight, cheers :)
But what the hell are Fridays for ? :D

[Gerald]

Frankly I already have this tool that comes together with OLCG2 environment mod. IIRC it's job is an alternative for ZielKursWinkel ?
To calculate speed, course, etc ? I always rely on Zielkurwinkel to get all the data I need. Actually I never bother getting true target course, relying on my own eyes to put my boat on interception course.. :)

But how it is related to nautical miles anyway ? :hmmm: Well..one nautical miles,1852 meter, so count...:hmmm:

[PapaKilo]

I want to thank all that were interested in this topic. I have to go out now, so tomorrow or day after, I'll be back to continue discussing it ok ? :)

I'm temporarily off, to continue after "ressuply" mission :haha:

[Pisces]

Frankly I already have this tool that comes together with OLCG2 environment mod. IIRC it's job is an alternative for ZielKursWinkel ?
To calculate speed, course, etc ? I always rely on Zielkurwinkel to get all the data I need. Actually I never bother getting true target course, relying on my own eyes to put my boat on interception course.. :)

But how it is related to nautical miles anyway ? :hmmm:


GUYS! as I already mentioned I might sound strange tonight, cheers :)
But what the hell are Fridays for ? :DThe side I had in mind can be seen in message 39 iirc (Puster Bill's). The OLC2 Gui doesn't have it. It has logarithmic scales (yeah I know, scary magic there ;) ) that allows you to do time/speed/distance conversions easily. Among other things.

This document is a sort of how-to:

http://www.gamefront.com/files/20910875/

[Jimbuna]

I would like to know how much bigger is SH3 globe compared to real world ?

1 km Sh3 = ? km RL

The SH3 world is a "Mercator projection" - meaning that the round earth is being projected on a flat surface.
This results in a great deal of distortion in the distances between objects.
for example:
On the round earth it is a voyage of some 3,300 miles (give or take) from Brest France to New York harbor...in the "mercator world" of SH3, that distance is distorted to a whopping 5,300 miles...not quite TWICE the actual distance.

Eg:
A type VII sub would have no problem travelling at an economic cruise speed from Brest to New York and back acting conservatively but in SH3 you would run out of fuel about half way into your return voyage.
Because the SH3 modders could not change the SH3 world from Flat.. to spherical, they had to adjust the in game range of the U-boat by increasing it nearly 3 fold.

[PapaKilo]

The SH3 world is a "Mercator projection" - meaning that the round earth is being projected on a flat surface.
This results in a great deal of distortion in the distances between objects.
for example:
On the round earth it is a voyage of some 3,300 miles (give or take) from Brest France to New York harbor...in the "mercator world" of SH3, that distance is distorted to a whopping 5,300 miles...not quite TWICE the actual distance.

Eg:
A type VII sub would have no problem travelling at an economic cruise speed from Brest to New York and back acting conservatively but in SH3 you would run out of fuel about half way into your return voyage.
Because the SH3 modders could not change the SH3 world from Flat.. to spherical, they had to adjust the in game range of the U-boat by increasing it nearly 3 fold.

Yeah I remember reading about U-boat ranges has been increassed to meet larger SH3 world..

I'm doing some testings ATM. Not something too special but worth a try anyway :)

Roughly speaking we have an equator of earth that is 40000 km long.
The equator of SH3 earth that is 43154 km long.

So basicly:

40000 km - 100% = 43154*100/40000 = 107.855%
43154 km - x%

So we now know that SH3 world longitude is + 7.855%.

Knowing that we can recalculate distances to meet SH3 scale regarding longtitude:

107.855 x Y /100 (where Y is true distance in KM took from GE for intance)

[Jimbuna]

Yeah I remember reading about U-boat ranges has been increassed to meet larger SH3 world..

I'm doing some testings ATM. Not something too special but worth a try anyway :)

Roughly speaking we have an equator of earth that is 40000 km long.
The equator of SH3 earth that is 43154 km long.

So basicly:

40000 km - 100% = 43154*100/40000 = 107.855%
43154 km - x%

So we now know that SH3 world longitude is + 7.855%.

Knowing that we can recalculate distances to meet SH3 scale regarding longtitude:

107.855 x Y /100 (where Y is true distance in KM took from GE for intance)

Rgr that http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/pirate.gif

[the.terrabyte.pirate]

Because the SH3 modders could not change the SH3 world from Flat.. to spherical, they had to adjust the in game range of the U-boat by increasing it nearly 3 fold.

Does anyone else see an opportunity for an SHIII "Google Earth" mod.

I'm thinking along the lines of replacing the flat SHIII chart with a series of images of an earth globe.

Probably not possible.

[Jimbuna]

Does anyone else see an opportunity for an SHIII "Google Earth" mod.

I'm thinking along the lines of replacing the flat SHIII chart with a series of images of an earth globe.

Probably not possible.

Give it a try....you never know unless you attempt it.

[danzig70]

I was working on something similar here a while back. The program I used is called WorldWind. http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=168915&highlight=danzig70

I was going to have a program that read the patrol logs and campaign files to map the sinkings, ship convoys, etc. As far as I remember, the measurements of map objects are in UTM Northing and Easting.