View Full Version : Libyan forces 'capture Gaddafi'
Jimbuna
10-20-11, 07:35 AM
Eagerly awaiting confirmation.
Commanders for Libya's transitional authorities say they have captured ousted leader Col Muammar Gaddafi.
The reports came after transitional forces claimed control of Sirte, Col Gaddafi's birthplace, following weeks of fierce fighting.
A soldier who says he captured Muammar Gaddafi told the BBC the colonel had shouted: "Don't shoot!"
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/56177000/jpg/_56177192_013188686-1.jpg
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-15385955
Well, I'll be...if this is true then it's great news for the rebels...if it is true.
Herr-Berbunch
10-20-11, 07:46 AM
Al Jazeera says dead, Reuters says dead, BBC says alive, as you say - awaiting confirmation. :hmmm:
Good news, either way.
Jimbuna
10-20-11, 07:55 AM
I've heard he is wounded in both legs and he is being driven by ambulance to Misratah...200 miles away :o
Strange how they found him hiding in a hole....I wonder who the last tyrant was that was found in similar circumstances :DL
Betonov
10-20-11, 08:00 AM
.I wonder who the last tyrant was that was found in similar circumstances :DL
Lets hope there will be a next ;)
BBC saying Dead now too in Live reports...but unconfirmed.
AVGWarhawk
10-20-11, 08:11 AM
I'm thinking it is the end of the road for Gaddafi.
Ouch, he doesn't look too well.
soopaman2
10-20-11, 08:12 AM
Wow they beat the tar outta him..
I don't know if this is good.
We have to wait and see what pops up.
I would have liked to see him stoned to death in typical arab tradition by the families of the Lockerbie flight. On that note, you think cancer boy scapegoat is safe now?
He may even be the next president, which is why i say don't get happy yet.
Sometimes you get exactly what you wanted then realize it is worse.
TLAM Strike
10-20-11, 08:14 AM
They just captured Sirte the other day! Was he even trying to hide? Saddam at least hid out for nine months before they captured him.
I'm very disappointed in you Qaddafi... :nope:
They just captured Sirte the other day! Was he even trying to hide? Saddam at least hid out for nine months before they captured him.
I'm very disappointed in you Qaddafi... :nope:
Quite, he's not very good at hide and seek, is he? :nope:
Flaxpants
10-20-11, 08:29 AM
It appears that he was true to his words- that he would fight to the death. Saddam didn't have the balls- it seems Gaddafi did, but no doubt driven by his perverted ego.
What about his hideous son Saif, haven't seen any news on him? - personally I find him equally repulsive, in fact more so than his father.
Good Riddance :haha:
Penguin
10-20-11, 08:35 AM
I read he had a golden revolver with him, that means he was at least on level 55 in COD: now we know how he spent the past few weeks.
AVGWarhawk
10-20-11, 08:39 AM
He did not have a chance:
http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011/10/20/homemade-bulldozer-battleship-joins-libya-fight/
http://a57.foxnews.com/static/managed/img/Scitech/660/371/armored%20bulldozer%20libya.JPG
Damn...no MTV "meet Qaddafi's"
I read he had a golden revolver with him, that means he was at least on level 55 in COD: now we know how he spent the past few weeks.
He played Call of Duty? No wonder Libya rebelled. Nobody in their right mind would want to be in a country who's leader played that abomination of a game series. :O:
If Amerika ever elects a CoD player I'll start a rebellion. :stare:
Penguin
10-20-11, 08:49 AM
He played Call of Duty? No wonder Libya rebelled. Nobody in their right mind would want to be in a country who's leader played that abomination of a game series. :O:
If Amerika ever elects a CoD player I'll start a rebellion. :stare:
Well, our former leader kind of lost in COD 2 :03:
TLAM Strike
10-20-11, 08:57 AM
http://a57.foxnews.com/static/managed/img/Scitech/660/371/armored%20bulldozer%20libya.JPG
http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/4605/sandcrawler.jpg
Industrious little Jawas aren't they?
:O:
frau kaleun
10-20-11, 09:30 AM
Thank you, I now have an image of Gaddafi standing alone in the desert, waving his arms about and yelling "OVER HERE! OVER HE----oh sh-"
AVGWarhawk
10-20-11, 09:40 AM
Thank you, I now have an image of Gaddafi standing alone in the desert, waving his arms about and yelling "OVER HERE! OVER HE----oh sh-"
He would be in a hole saying, "Don't shoot, don't shoot!"
papa_smurf
10-20-11, 09:55 AM
Lets all feel sorry for Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, as he will be so lonely at UN meetings without his bes buddy Gaddafi:haha:
Herr-Berbunch
10-20-11, 09:57 AM
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-rJNVj57m5Ns/TXqjxm60FCI/AAAAAAAAB3I/IP_lM9J_dB0/s1600/these_are_not_the_droids.jpg
This isn't the Gaddafi you're looking for!
Well that confirms a hunch I had. Watching the reports of the fighting in Sirte, I was a bit puzzled how the forces there, despite being surrounded for quite a while and obviously in a desperate situation, kept fighting what seemed to be a meaningless battle against their own people. So I figured they had to be guarding something really important for that to be worth it. I didn't necessarily think it was the man himself, but that thought crept into my mind. Turns out I was right - nope, it wasn't just some miraculous resistance, they really were covering the big one...
Armistead
10-20-11, 10:52 AM
In the footage showing his body, looked like a few in the crowd were taking machetes to it......
soopaman2
10-20-11, 10:54 AM
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/56177000/jpg/_56177192_013188686-1.jpg
He used to be such a pimp.
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f259/Soopaman2/gaddafipimp.jpg
According to BBC,
"Sometime in the early hours, Nato aircraft are reported to have attacked the convoy, according to Daily Telegraph reporter Ben Farmer approximately 3-4 kms west of the city.
There are some reports that Col Gaddafi was then initially captured, with serious injuries to both legs."
Then he was hiding out in the pipe, confronted by rebel fighters, shot, taken to hospital in Misrata (yup, 200km away), and died there. Sure no walk in the park!
Fascinating story if that's true! Perhaps symbolic of the whole conflict as such.
It seems Gaddafi was lynched and filmed.
soopaman2
10-20-11, 12:09 PM
I just hope the people get what they want in the end, and foreign governments don't meddle anymore. It only breeds contempt down the line. Which is always paid for in blood (We armed the taliban against Soviets, they used said materiel against the US later)
We (UN) did our part. Back out, let the people do theirs...For better or for worse.
It seems Gaddafi was lynched and filmed.
I'm starting to suspect as much - very hard to tell from the pictures we're getting. If not that, I'm almost certain that someone among the captors pulled a gun and shot him while he was in custody - considering how high the emotions of all this are, and the depth of grudges that might be held, I wouldn't be surprised if that fact ended up being buried. He looks very much alive in the early pictures, and very dead and battered in late pictures. Whatever happened between that was probably not pretty. Not sure we'll know the truth here, but I don't think much of anyone will miss him either!
kiwi_2005
10-20-11, 12:25 PM
Another video,
Muammar Gaddafi killed as Sirte falls
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/10/20111020111520869621.html
AVGWarhawk
10-20-11, 12:29 PM
I just hope the people get what they want in the end, and foreign governments don't meddle anymore. It only breeds contempt down the line. Which is always paid for in blood (We armed the taliban against Soviets, they used said materiel against the US later)
We (UN) did our part. Back out, let the people do theirs...For better or for worse.
Unlikely the people will get what they want. Someone similar to Gaddafi will take power.
Oh, rest assured the role that NATO played in this will be forgotten very quickly by Libya...until something goes wrong, and then it will all be NATOs fault.
The fate of libya is uncertain but i would bet on tribal war similar to whats going on in Iraq.
The tribes supporting Qaddafi are not defeated yet and there is a question if the rebels will stick together.
Add to this possible outside interests.
Another leader Qaddafi style is good case scenario.
BossMark
10-20-11, 12:38 PM
Goodbye to bad rubbish :haha:
soopaman2
10-20-11, 12:48 PM
The fate of libya is uncertain but i would bet on tribal war similar to whats going on in Iraq.
The tribes supporting Qaddafi are not defeated yet and there is a question if the rebels will stick together.
Add to this possible outside interests.
Another leader Qaddafi style is good case scenario.
I will have to agree.
Qaddafi (in terms to middle eastern despots) was mild and at least able to be talked to diplomatically.
I remember him (so called) dismantling his nuclear program not too long ago to appease the UN (US). Which I saw as a good faith sign.
He just wasn't good for his own people, and that is all that mattered. (my country was born of rebellion too, so I get it)
Hopefully the people of Libya get what they fought and shed blood for. Would be a shame to see it spiral something even worse. Your point on tribal position jostling, and infighting leaves me in fear for their future.
Subnuts
10-20-11, 01:08 PM
When this revolution started, I said that Ghadaffi was gonna end up going out like Mussolini.
Anybody want to hear my other predictions? :know:
Only if you have the winning lottery numbers... :DL
Rockstar
10-20-11, 03:25 PM
It will be interesting to see what tribal leader will take his place. Will it be an anti-western dictator or a pro-western dictator. I'd wager this revolution will more specifically place a European friendly dictator in. And that it doesn't have jack squat to do with the freedom and democracy bandwagon everyone always drools over. Instead it's more to do with Europe's need for oil and preventing Russia from gaining complete control of how much oil Europe can have and at what price.
Russia several years ago went to war for oil so has the United States. Of course we hear from our pacifist European friends how wrong that is. But as we see in Libya, Europe will too. They just stage a revolution and let someone else spill their blood for it. I wonder if releasing al-Megrahi wasn't Europe's way of kissing Libyan butt to keep receiving its oil from BP instead of GAZPROM.
Tribesman
10-20-11, 04:04 PM
I wonder if releasing al-Megrahi wasn't Europe's way of kissing Libyan butt to keep receiving its oil from BP instead of GAZPROM.
No, Magrahi was just to stop Britain humiliating itself again in the courts.
Jimbuna
10-20-11, 04:09 PM
Well he is history now...I hope the Libyan people can now look forward to some peace and stability.
It seems it could be as a part of the improvement in relations between Libya and UK.
It was done supposedly on Qaddafi request after he denounced WMD development and promised to be a good boy, securing some deals with EU.
(he did not like what happened to Saddam Hussein)
I should say it saved embarrassment to both countries while the Scots took the fire.
[QUOTE]Well he is history now...I hope the Libyan people can now look forward to some peace and stability
Yeah actually it would be good thing to see for a change.
So many brainwashed people here...
Orwell was obviously right.
Related
http://www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=57268&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
Its a Hearts of Iron 2 Modern Day scenario Let's Play/AAR with the player playing Libya. :O:
So many brainwashed people here...
Orwell was obviously right.
Some witty quote should follow then.
Life in Libya with Leader Gaddafi:
1. Electricity for household use is free,
2. interest-free loans
3. during the study, governmant give to every student 2 300 dolars/month
4. receives the average salary for this profession if you do not find a job after graduation,
5. the state has paid for to work in the profession,
6. every unemployed person receives social assistance 15,000 $/year,
7. for marriage state pays first apartment or house (150m2),
8. buying cars at factory prices,
9. LIBYA not owe anyone a cent,
10. free higher education abroad,
11. 25% of highly educated,
12. 40 loaves of bread costs $ 0.15,
13. water in the middle of the desert, drinking water,
14. 8 dinars per liter of oil (0.08 EUR),
15. 6% poor people,
16. for each infant, the couple received $ 5,000 for their needs.
Colonel Muammar Gadaffi is frequently referred to in the media as a "mad dictator" and "bloody tyrant", but do these allegations accord with the facts?
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-E2fNWcX1K3U/TfZG9o9rcrI/AAAAAAAAA_0/oFUI6r9HNGE/s1600/250887_10150307828939918_734819917_9712029_6315528 _n.jpg (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-E2fNWcX1K3U/TfZG9o9rcrI/AAAAAAAAA_0/oFUI6r9HNGE/s1600/250887_10150307828939918_734819917_9712029_6315528 _n.jpg)
Libya consists of over 15O tribes, with the two main groups, the Meghabra living in Tripolitania in the west and the Wafallah living in Cyrenaica in the east. Previous attempts to unite these tribes by the Turkish (1855-1911) and ltalian {1911-43) colonial rulers failed and the country was split in two for administrative purposes.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-BkIbOuJxQJc/TfZHzhnzHII/AAAAAAAAA_4/8A1Cmu4pjrM/s320/lIBYA+TUSRKIS.jpg (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-BkIbOuJxQJc/TfZHzhnzHII/AAAAAAAAA_4/8A1Cmu4pjrM/s1600/lIBYA+TUSRKIS.jpg)
Oil was discovered in Libya in 1959, but King ldris of the Senussi tribe allowed most of the oil profits to be siphoned into the coffers of the oil companies. The coup d'etat on 1 September 1969 led by Colonel Gadaffi had countrywide support. He subsequently married a woman from the royal Barqa tribe and adroitly unified the nation.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-R5zDqONRNRg/TfZJP5G54kI/AAAAAAAABAA/MBOPkODplLU/s320/Masjid_Sidi_Abdul_Wahab_-_Libya.jpg (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-R5zDqONRNRg/TfZJP5G54kI/AAAAAAAABAA/MBOPkODplLU/s1600/Masjid_Sidi_Abdul_Wahab_-_Libya.jpg)
By retaining Libya's oil wealth for the benefit of all its people, Gadaffi had created a socialist paradise. There is no unemployment, Libya has the highest GDP in .Africa, less than 5% of the population is classified as poor and it has fewer people living below the poverty datum line than for example in Holland. Life expectancy is 75 years and is the highest in Africa and I0% above the world average.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-JDfn2VBN0_0/TfZJsG84jlI/AAAAAAAABAE/9kz2NgoK0ws/s320/HOTEL+TRIPOLY.jpg (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-JDfn2VBN0_0/TfZJsG84jlI/AAAAAAAABAE/9kz2NgoK0ws/s1600/HOTEL+TRIPOLY.jpg)
With the exception of the nomadic Bedouin and Tuareg tribes, most Libyan families possess a house and a car. There is free health care and education and not surprisingly Libya has a literacy rate of 82%. Last year Gadaffi distributed $500 to each man, woman and child (population 6.5 million).
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-EoZgErnNOXo/TfZJ_wjqKAI/AAAAAAAABAI/9Y1g1dy1WAU/s320/PA070083+-+Libyan+CHild+with+camera.jpg (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-EoZgErnNOXo/TfZJ_wjqKAI/AAAAAAAABAI/9Y1g1dy1WAU/s1600/PA070083+-+Libyan+CHild+with+camera.jpg)
Libya has a tolerable human rights record and stands at 61 on the International Incarceration Index, comparable with countries in central Europe (the lower the rating, the lower the standing - the USA occupies the no.1 spot!). There is hardly any crime and only rebels and traitors are dealt with harshly.
Anyone who has read Gadaffi's little Green Book will realize that he is a thoughtful and enlightened leader. Libya has been accused of having committed numerous acts of terrorism in the past, but many of these have been perpetrated by foreign intelligence agencies as false flag operations - the Lockerbie bombing being a prime example. The CIA and MI6 and their frontmen have been stoking up dissent in the east of the country for almost 30 years.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-uQ1M6Qc0PGg/TfZKp3YtAFI/AAAAAAAABAM/YXNZQNKIw2c/s320/ZALTNI+NAKIT.jpg (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-uQ1M6Qc0PGg/TfZKp3YtAFI/AAAAAAAABAM/YXNZQNKIw2c/s1600/ZALTNI+NAKIT.jpg)
(http://libyasos.blogspot.com/p/gaddafi.html)
Libya produces exceptionally high quality light crude oil and its production cost of $1 a barrel, compared to the current price of $115, is the lowest in the world.
Riba (usury) is not permitted.
The Central bank of Libya is a wholly-owned by the Libyan Government and is run as a state bank, issuing all government loans free of interest. This is in contrast to the exploitative fractional reserve banking system of the West.
The no-fly zone and the bombing of Libya have nothing to do with the protection of civilians. It is an act of war * a blatant and crude attempt by the oil corporations and international bankers to steal the wealth of Libya.Read this, you CNN brainwashed people. Your ignorance is ridiculous.
http://libyasos.blogspot.com/p/gaddafi.html
So which tribes had those benefits?
Did you read the green book too?
Its true that some of his ideas had been put into practice regarding education and equality but its not that good.
Tribesman
10-20-11, 05:39 PM
Read this, you CNN brainwashed people. Your ignorance is ridiculous.
:har::har::har::har::har:
Ignorance eh:88)
Anyone who has read Gadaffi's little Green Book will realize that .....
You have got to be kidding:rotfl2:
soopaman2
10-20-11, 05:44 PM
So many brainwashed people here...
Orwell was obviously right.
You should at least elaborate ,sir.:)
So we know which one of us you are calling morons, and said morons can defend their viewpoints.
Ignorance eh:88)
If not ignorance, then hypocrisy.
A bunch of fascists brought the chaos, death and destruction into the peaceful country under fake slogans of "democracy", "human rights" etc.
That's the truth, not your brainwashing TV propaganda.
If not ignorance, then hypocrisy,
......... under fake slogans of "democracy", "human rights" etc.
That's the truth, not your brainwashing TV propaganda.
oh well...i can somewhat agree on that lol
Jimbuna
10-20-11, 05:53 PM
You know...if life under his rule was so good then why did so many of his people take up arms against him? :hmmm:
But what's the truth and how do you know? If the Green Book and the Lybian information minister are your main sources, that's not gonna be terribly effective.
With foreign media, I don't doubt whitewashing and bias - but at least you can triangulate it via many journalists from many countries on the ground. If it were only CNN reporting it, I'd understand that, but considering you can go and see a mostly similar image emerging on the same things on Al Jazeera, BBC, Russian, Japanese or South American television (and believe me, I've checked), I'd give it a little more credence than something produced under a tightly-centralized regime. There is inevitably a tilt here, and inevitably everybody is caught up in a "romance" with what's really a volatile and difficult situation. But that lends no credence or support to the opposite perspective in and of itself.
Of course the victors are gonna write the history, but it's ludicrous to suggest that "the truth" is property of the sources allied to a regime as incredulous and tightly-controled as Gaddafi's.
TLAM Strike
10-20-11, 06:36 PM
Footage of Qaddafi. Looks like he was captured alive... after that well... (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a7d_1319127661)
Footage of Qaddafi. Looks like he was captured alive... after that well... (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a7d_1319127661)
Like Jim said, a 200km ambulance ride to Misrata? Heh, only one way he was going to end that trip. I don't think a trial was ever an option for the NTC, not that they would admit it. :03:
Torplexed
10-20-11, 07:40 PM
Footage of Qaddafi. Looks like he was captured alive... after that well... (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a7d_1319127661)
Kicked, pistol-whipped and shot by his fellow Libyans. So much for being loved by his people.
Kongo Otto
10-20-11, 08:05 PM
You know...if life under his rule was so good then why did so many of his people take up arms against him? :hmmm:
Well changing one corrupt dictatorship with another mostly even more corrupt regime is a North African Tradition. simple as that.
There will be no Democracy or anykind of freedom for the individual as we know it, they will just have the choose between the Devil and the Deep Blue sea.
I have biggest concerns about what will come after him, maybe something even worse!
Take the Iran as example the Shah Reza Pahlevi was worse, no doubt about it, but what did come with Khomeini and afterwards was even more worse.
Platapus
10-20-11, 08:50 PM
You know...if life under his rule was so good then why did so many of his people take up arms against him? :hmmm:
Well, how many actually did take up arms and how does that number compare with the population?
We should know those numbers before we can figure out whether your statement has any validity.
the_tyrant
10-20-11, 09:18 PM
Well, how many actually did take up arms and how does that number compare with the population?
We should know those numbers before we can figure out whether your statement has any validity.
I believe in a stable country even 1% is too much
just think about it this way, you might say Obama sucks, but so far I have not heard of a single american who has risen up in revolt.
I believe that a huge portion of the population is pissed at him, just not enough to warrant risking their neck
magicstix
10-20-11, 09:38 PM
I believe in a stable country even 1% is too much
just think about it this way, you might say Obama sucks, but so far I have not heard of a single american who has risen up in revolt.
I believe that a huge portion of the population is pissed at him, just not enough to warrant risking their neck
Why risk their neck when they can just vote him out next year? Why didn't the Libyans just do the same? Oh... wait...
Just to play devil's advocate, that video's been played quite extensively by Al Jazeera there's nothing in it to suggest that a) Gaddafi was 'okay' when captured; b) Gaddafi was executed. Being able to somewhat walk does not preclude one from being already wounded and not that far from death; being really pissed and yelling and pushing someone around doesn't mean executing them.
Not to say that's not perhaps what happened, but I'll remain a skeptic until something definitively suggests otherwise.
The current official report, of course, is also suspect...
Later, Mr Jibril told journalists that a "forensic report" had concluded that the colonel had died from bullet wounds after he had been captured and driven away.
"When the car was moving it was caught in crossfire between the revolutionaries and Gaddafi forces in which he was hit by a bullet in the head," he said, quoting from the report
Yeah there's lots of places that bullet could've come from...
Tribesman
10-21-11, 02:18 AM
If not ignorance, then hypocrisy.
Really? Do tell, this should be funny.
peaceful country
Now that would indicate that it is you who is the brainwashed ignoramus who you mentioned.:yeah:
Onkel Neal
10-21-11, 03:36 AM
I've heard he is wounded in both legs and he is being driven by ambulance to Misratah...200 miles away :o
Strange how they found him hiding in a hole....I wonder who the last tyrant was that was found in similar circumstances :DL
Yeah, you have to wonder, why don't these guys know when it's time to get our of Dodge? They certainly have the $$ to bail. If I were Ghaddafi, I would be living large in a Swiss ski chalet right now.:know:
Well, me, I'm happy to see another dictator fall. Here's hoping for democracy there (it could happen).
Good news Bad news. Not sure which it is yet. Don't like the way he was handled but can understand the anger after so many years of oppression. Good to see him out of the picture, but the way forward is certainly going to have a few twists in it.
papa_smurf
10-21-11, 06:36 AM
As Gaddafi said that the rebels in Benghazi would be "hunted like rats", so he hid like one and was hunted like a rat - good riddance.
Jimbuna
10-21-11, 08:11 AM
Good news Bad news. Not sure which it is yet. Don't like the way he was handled but can understand the anger after so many years of oppression. Good to see him out of the picture, but the way forward is certainly going to have a few twists in it.
Agreed and the last words he probably head were "Quite dog!!" and "God is Great!!"
Jimbuna
10-21-11, 12:17 PM
http://cheezcomixed.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/koma-comic-strip-which-ones-next.jpg
So he's dead...excuse me I need to fart.
Are that's better.
So he's dead...excuse me I need to fart.
Are that's better.Do it in another forum,:O:
Do it in another forum,:O:
Too late. :stare:
Jimbuna
10-21-11, 12:29 PM
Too late. :stare:
Sounds like a bad case of Benghazi Belly :hmmm:
Sounds like a bad case of Benghazi Belly :hmmm::rotfl2:
Dose Gaddafi have a third nipple? After all he has...sorry had a golden gun.
Jimbuna
10-21-11, 12:51 PM
:rotfl2:
Dose Gaddafi have a third nipple? After all he has...sorry had a golden gun.
I do know he now has a third belly button :03:
Krauter
10-21-11, 07:08 PM
Yeah, you have to wonder, why don't these guys know when it's time to get our of Dodge? They certainly have the $$ to bail. If I were Ghaddafi, I would be living large in a Swiss ski chalet right now.:know:
Well, me, I'm happy to see another dictator fall. Here's hoping for democracy there (it could happen).
I think the reason that he didn't bail was mainly believing he could crush the revolution, and by the time he'd realized it was too late all of his funds held in international banks had been frozen.
WarlordATF
10-22-11, 04:05 AM
I'm glad he's dead. However i would have prefered him to stand trial and spend the rest of his days locked in a cage, death was much too good for him.
Libya has a chance for a bright future now, but its really anyones guess how this will turn out. Hopefully they will elect someone who will do whats best for the country instead of letting another monster take the reins.
We may never know how he really died, if he was executed after his capture then whoever did it is no better than Gaddafi. I can understand the anger the Rebels felt towards him, but cold blooded murder is just wrong.
At least this time the war (battle,engagement?) cannot be blamed on the US, France led this one and we only played a supporting role. I'm so tired of hearing how the US is fighting all these wars over oil and yet we have incredibly high gas prices here. If we were fighting for oil, it sure isn't showing up here in the US for the common civilian.
Iraq was unfinished business for us, We should have just finished the job in 91. Lets not forget how many chances Saddam was given to allow inspections of his arsenal before we took any action. He refused and paid the price. We know he had the weapons at one time because the US gave them to Iraq to use against Iran, What became of those weapons is still unknown, Maybe they were used in the Iran/Iraq war, Maybe they were dismantled, Maybe they were sold to another nation, Maybe they are buried somewhere in the desert, but the fact is they are still unaccounted for.
Afganistan was payback for 9/11. Bin Laden and his terrorist organization attacked the US. There is not a Nation on Earth that would not have struck back after such an attack. I personally think President Clinton should have taken Bin Laden out when he had the chance instead of waiting 8 hours to authorize the tomahawk stikes on the terrorist training camps. Instead it fell into President Bush's lap within a few months of becoming President. Its always blamed on Bush, but the fact is 9/11 might not have happened if Clinton had not wasted enough time for Bin Laden to escape.
In Libya we were asked to help after Gaddafi attacked his own people with the military. We neither started it or lead the actions. We supported the other Countries and the Libyan people to overthrow someone that held power long after the population wanted him gone. It was not like He didn't have a chance to escape, he foolishly thought he could win and it cost him his life. I hope for the best for the people of Libya but i'm concerned that a new monster will replace the old one.
papa_smurf
10-22-11, 04:23 AM
Apparently the death of Gaddafi is a bad thing (according to the Republicans):
http://gawker.com/5851978/
You got to love American politics/Fox news:har:
Jimbuna
10-22-11, 07:01 AM
I feel sorry for Colonel Gadaffi.
It's a sad world when an elderly man can't enjoy a private moment with his pipe.
From the sewers straight to the fridge.
Gaddafi has a lot in common with Fosters.
Blood_splat
10-22-11, 07:54 AM
Apparently the death of Gaddafi is a bad thing (according to the Republicans):
http://gawker.com/5851978/
You got to love American politics/Fox news:har:
:har:
Apparently the death of Gaddafi is a bad thing (according to the Republicans):
http://gawker.com/5851978/
You got to love American politics/Fox news:har:
Zanga zanga bunga bunga
soopaman2
10-22-11, 10:17 AM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/oct/21/muammar-gaddafi-body-misrata-meat-store?newsfeed=true
Yes a freezer in a meatstore. Being diplayed like farmer Browns blue ribbon winning pig.
Life may suck, but at least your not him.
Armistead
10-22-11, 11:01 AM
I thought Obama Killed him, least on MSNBC they keep saying he got both Bin Ladin and Gaddafi.
soopaman2
10-22-11, 11:08 AM
I thought Obama Killed him, least on MSNBC they keep saying he got both Bin Ladin and Gaddafi.
What are you doing watching that, they lie. Watch Fox, always truthful.
Just kidding, both are rubbish..
Obama took alot of flak for getting involved, took alot of critisism.
MSNBC is just "rubbing the conservatives face in the poo" so to speak..(it is their job, just like it is Foxs job to villify him)
They aren't news networks, it is news entertainment. Jon Stewart has more media credibility than these outfits. At least he tells you he is peddling entertainment in the guise of news.
Jimbuna
10-22-11, 03:35 PM
The result of Gaddafi's post-mortum is that he comitted suicide by shooting himself 5 times in the head from a passing car.
Jimbuna
10-22-11, 04:05 PM
On a more serious note....does anyone know of the fate of Gaddafis son Saif because I've read three different reports from captured to killed and being in hospital in a critical condition having lost an arm? :hmmm:
Foxtrot
10-22-11, 04:52 PM
Seems that people from North Korea won't be free with the help of NATO and/or US. Because they don't have oil
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuqZfaj34nc
I'd love to see oil producing countries switch to Euro or gold for oil trade though.
Seems that people from North Korea won't be free with the help of NATO and/or US. Because they don't have oil
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuqZfaj34nc
I'd love to see oil producing countries switch to Euro or gold for oil trade though.
Oh yeah.. all Qaddafi wanted is prosperity for Africa and his people.
All he had to do is switch to gold currency to achieve this against NATO wish.
Yeah.. yeah.. its the same in Libya and Arabia and all other countries that screw their own people while the tribe on the top sits on its ass counting money.
Apparently there is a lot of dirty business going but this self guilt about injustice in Arab world is beyond comprehension.
joegrundman
10-23-11, 01:28 AM
Apparently the death of Gaddafi is a bad thing (according to the Republicans):
http://gawker.com/5851978/
You got to love American politics/Fox news:har:
it's a funny old day when one group of americans would rather give credit to the french than to another group of americans :DL
Tribesman
10-23-11, 03:55 AM
it's a funny old day when one group of americans would rather give credit to the french than to another group of americans
You can fix that easily. Just dig up a French birth cert for Obama and watch them switch the credit to Italy.
antikristuseke
10-23-11, 04:08 AM
Why not Nagorno-Karabakh instead of Italy?
Tribesman
10-23-11, 04:36 AM
Why not Nagorno-Karabakh instead of Italy?
Thats just cruel, why confuse them even further?
antikristuseke
10-23-11, 04:37 AM
I'm easily amused.
Jimbuna
10-23-11, 05:24 AM
It would appear he remained defiant to the end....BBC news an hour ago reported a will he wrote five days ago has been passed on to his relatives and amongst it's contents was his wish that should he die, he wanted his supporters to carry on the fight.
TheSatyr
10-24-11, 06:35 PM
What a surprise. The Interim Government in Libya has announced that Sharia Law will now be the law of the land.
I knew when Europe and Obama decided on getting involved in Libya's civil war that this would be the result.
Once again Obama has shown his true colors by supporting hard core Muslims over Secular Leaders.
Now we have thousands of missing shoulder launched SAMs in a country that will no doubt ally itself with al quaeda since they aided the rebels. I'm sureeeeeeeeeeeeee everything will work out just fine.
Within 5-10 years we will all be wishing Quaddaffi was still running Libya. As things stand right now it looks like we created another ally for Iran and another base for terrorists.
Tribesman
10-24-11, 07:43 PM
What a surprise. The Interim Government in Libya has announced that Sharia Law will now be the law of the land.
What a surprise:hmmm:
I take it you don't know anything about sharia or the laws of Libya then Satyr.
As things stand right now it looks like we created another ally for Iran and another base for terrorists.
You really are confused.
Forget for a moment that you don't like the current US President and see if you can actually think about the subject as so far you have made very little sense and indeed much of what you wrote is just a plain demonstation of woefull ignorance
Krauter
10-24-11, 08:41 PM
What a surprise. The Interim Government in Libya has announced that Sharia Law will now be the law of the land.
I knew when Europe and Obama decided on getting involved in Libya's civil war that this would be the result.
Once again Obama has shown his true colors by supporting hard core Muslims over Secular Leaders.
Now we have thousands of missing shoulder launched SAMs in a country that will no doubt ally itself with al quaeda since they aided the rebels. I'm sureeeeeeeeeeeeee everything will work out just fine.
Within 5-10 years we will all be wishing Quaddaffi was still running Libya. As things stand right now it looks like we created another ally for Iran and another base for terrorists.
What's wrong with Muslim laws controlling the land? Isn't in similar in Saudi Arabia? Muslim does not = bad, get your head out your arse and realize there are other cultures then American, Democratic and Christian. :doh:
CaptainHaplo
10-24-11, 10:45 PM
While there are multiple schools of thought in how Sharia should be applied - certain facets remain the same.
Polygamy is allowed (though in modern society it has been outlawed in some places)
Women are still second class citizens.
Banks are not allowed to charge interest on loans (boy can't you see all the world's banks running to get into libya now! NOT!)
Conversion from islam is apostasy, equal to treason and is punishable by death.
There is more, but you get the picture. Suffice it to say that its not exactly the most equitable foundation for a society to be built upon. Its not a matter of someone's head up their arse - its a matter of differences in how people view other humans, how people should deal with each other, and how much one religion should be allowed to permeate society to the forcible exclusion of all the rest.
Krauter
10-24-11, 11:25 PM
All I'm saying is that just because a country is guided by a religious law, be it islam or any other religion, does not mean that that country is suddenly terrible to its people.
TLAM Strike
10-24-11, 11:48 PM
All I'm saying is that just because a country is guided by a religious law, be it islam or any other religion, does not mean that that country is suddenly terrible to its people.
Your right... because there are only two real Theocracies in the world right now, and one is quite nice and peaceful (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_City), the other wellllll... you know (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran)...
Does a system that is fair and just 50% of the time be considered "good" :hmmm:
Flaxpants
10-25-11, 12:18 AM
On a more serious note....does anyone know of the fate of Gaddafis son Saif because I've read three different reports from captured to killed and being in hospital in a critical condition having lost an arm? :hmmm:
This is puzzling me also Jim....why no mention of this guy?. I can't find anything about him. He was the 'number 2'- the heir apparent.
The lack of information about him may speak volumes, about what though I do not know...
This is puzzling me also Jim....why no mention of this guy?. I can't find anything about him. He was the 'number 2'- the heir apparent.
I read today that he is trying to sneak to Niger with a false passport.
Found also this: http://www.hrw.org/node/102543
Hague Tribunal will have a lot to do, both with Gaddafi's men and these baseball cap revolutionists who first shout "no more terror" and then shoot you in the back after smashing your head with a riffle butt. :yeah:
Tribesman
10-25-11, 03:01 AM
While there are multiple schools of thought in how Sharia should be applied - certain facets remain the same.
Polygamy is allowed (though in modern society it has been outlawed in some places)
Women are still second class citizens.
Banks are not allowed to charge interest on loans (boy can't you see all the world's banks running to get into libya now! NOT!)
Conversion from islam is apostasy, equal to treason and is punishable by death.
How come you chose 4 examples to demonstrate the sameness of the religious interpretations where there is very wide variance, including one example where not only is there a wide variance but your example is directly contrary to their scripture on which it is supposed to be based and one that isn't even true?
Flaxpants
10-25-11, 03:02 AM
I read today that he is trying to sneak to Niger with a false passport.
Found also this: http://www.hrw.org/node/102543
Hague Tribunal will have a lot to do, both with Gaddafi's men and these baseball cap revolutionists who first shout "no more terror" and then shoot you in the back after smashing your head with a riffle butt. :yeah:
A false passport and a Groucho Marx comedy moustache/nose combination no doubt. Though he has a natural one already IIRC.
I did hear shortly after Gaddafi was found that Saif who had also been trying to flee south in a convoy and was completely surrounded by NTC forces..... then nothing more.
That's a dead link for me Kranz by the way....a blank page
While there are multiple schools of thought in how Sharia should be applied - certain facets remain the same.
Polygamy is allowed (though in modern society it has been outlawed in some places)
Women are still second class citizens.
Banks are not allowed to charge interest on loans (boy can't you see all the world's banks running to get into libya now! NOT!)
Conversion from islam is apostasy, equal to treason and is punishable by death.
There is more, but you get the picture. Suffice it to say that its not exactly the most equitable foundation for a society to be built upon. Its not a matter of someone's head up their arse - its a matter of differences in how people view other humans, how people should deal with each other, and how much one religion should be allowed to permeate society to the forcible exclusion of all the rest.
Even if all that were true, it's up to the people to decide how they want to live including which system.
Penguin
10-25-11, 04:48 AM
What's wrong with Muslim laws controlling the land? Isn't in similar in Saudi Arabia? Muslim does not = bad, get your head out your arse and realize there are other cultures then American, Democratic and Christian. :doh:
Saudi Arabia as an example? Really? Just because our fine Western leaders decide to do business with them, does not make the regime any less oppressive.
Check out the Cairo Declaration on Human Rights in Islam (http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/instree/cairodeclaration.html) and check out in which substantial points it differs from other declarations.
1000s of people died, not only in "Western" countries, for rights like universal suffrage or the right to critizise religion.
For most people it is more important in their daily lives to have access to fresh water, than having free elections. However this does not make the struggle for human rights less important.
This is not about respect for different cultures, but about very basic rights. Are muslims other human beings who are thus not eligible to the universal, basic human rights? No, Sir, this is Western arrogance at it's best, to imply that these people do not need or want the freedom they are entitled to by birth.
If people decide to live like slaves on their own, free will, it is their problem, but no state has the right to abridge rights of the ones who don't want to live like this.
Tribesman
10-25-11, 05:24 AM
1000s of people died, not only in "Western" countries, for rights like universal suffrage or the right to critizise religion.
Isn't it funny that in other current topics "westerners" are complaining about criticizing religion and the existance of universal suffrage.
Hakahura
10-25-11, 05:48 AM
Your right... because there are only two real Theocracies in the world right now, and one is quite nice and peaceful (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_City), the other wellllll... you know (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran)...
:hmmm:
I propose a close 3rd
USA
Penguin
10-25-11, 06:21 AM
Isn't it funny that in other current topics "westerners" are complaining about criticizing religion and the existance of universal suffrage.
Of course it is :DL, not only on subsim, also in my country.
Living in a country with relative freedom does not make you a better person, nor someone who appeciates the freedom of others.
And it is always easier for the rulers to control a population that is uneducated, with as few rights as possible, that's another reason why freedoms have to be defended constantly.
There is some difference between taking rights as a starting point and allowing some exceptions due to freedom of religion.
Krauter
10-25-11, 12:00 PM
Saudi Arabia as an example? Really? Just because our fine Western leaders decide to do business with them, does not make the regime any less oppressive.
Check out the Cairo Declaration on Human Rights in Islam (http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/instree/cairodeclaration.html) and check out in which substantial points it differs from other declarations.
1000s of people died, not only in "Western" countries, for rights like universal suffrage or the right to critizise religion.
For most people it is more important in their daily lives to have access to fresh water, than having free elections. However this does not make the struggle for human rights less important.
This is not about respect for different cultures, but about very basic rights. Are muslims other human beings who are thus not eligible to the universal, basic human rights? No, Sir, this is Western arrogance at it's best, to imply that these people do not need or want the freedom they are entitled to by birth.
If people decide to live like slaves on their own, free will, it is their problem, but no state has the right to abridge rights of the ones who don't want to live like this.
1. I mainly posted Saudi Arabia as an example because: 1, The western world, more specifically the U.S, do business them and maintain a large interest in their oil reserves and 2nd, they are a nation guided by Islamic laws. If countries guided by Islam are "bad" and need to be taken down and have Democracy set in place why not do this with the Saudis? Oh wait...
2. I totally agree with you that people should have their basic human rights protected. But that does not mean that, in our "Western arrogance" we can shove our own concept of it on other people. For some, having fresh water, food and a home is enough. If an Islamic guided nation/government is enough to supply them with that, then why should anyone intervene?
Another interesting point that I think raises some interesting questions, if you abolish a theocratic nation, where do you draw the line between how much power religion should have in a persons life?
Your right... because there are only two real Theocracies in the world right now, and one is quite nice and peaceful (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_City), the other wellllll... you know (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran)...
Does a system that is fair and just 50% of the time be considered "good" :hmmm:
I never said that it was "good" in the Western sense of a "good" governing system, I'm merely saying that just because a country, or revolution is deciding to guide its principles off of a religion, be it Islam, Christian, Jewish or any other, does not make it immediately "bad".
Going by your examples, we have two polar opposites. If we don't allow people the choice to choose their government style, how can we tell if Theocracy is "bad"?
Another interesting point that I think raises some interesting questions, if you abolish a theocratic nation, where do you draw the line between how much power religion should have in a persons life?
The basic and main difference is that in such nations it can be openly debated........while allowing religion to be practiced.
Krauter
10-25-11, 12:50 PM
What I'm speaking of is, if religion is unfit to guide a nation how can it be fit to guide a person?
Can you handle the truth about Libya & the UN bombing?
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUNzINzZnjc)
What's truth again? :hmmm:
CNN may not be truth, but it sure ain't a poorly-made youtube video of out-of-context quotes either...
Flaxpants
10-25-11, 08:58 PM
What's truth again? :hmmm:
CNN may not be truth, but it sure ain't a poorly-made youtube video of out-of-context quotes either...
Lol. :yeah:
Head, Nail, The, On, Hit.
Penguin
10-26-11, 02:52 AM
Yes, I always trust that a video which writes truth in capital letters will enlighten me.
Using semi-fascist Farrakhan as their spokesperson does not raise my interest. A quick check at the video makers YT-page: a truther, wow, who would have thought this. The first link in his friends list (alivera3), leads to a vid about the "Zionist Murder Of Muammar Gaddafi". Yay, there we have it!
Just because any moron, who still lives in mommy's basement at 40, has the technical equipment to make a video, does not mean that he should. People like this are resistant to any arguments, live in their own little world and can eat my dingleberries.
Flaxpants
10-26-11, 03:32 AM
Unfortunaltely there's an awful lot of people who swallow this kind of stuff down as fact....
A global ban on all Numpties would solve the problem.
Penguin
10-26-11, 06:27 AM
1. I mainly posted Saudi Arabia as an example because: 1, The western world, more specifically the U.S, do business them and maintain a large interest in their oil reserves and 2nd, they are a nation guided by Islamic laws. If countries guided by Islam are "bad" and need to be taken down and have Democracy set in place why not do this with the Saudis? Oh wait...
Germany also made a tank deal with SA recently. :shifty:
That some non-democratic countries are "bad", some are "good" is not only valid for religious countries: just take a look how the US regards Cuba (badbadbad) vs China (we print our flag stickers there)
2. I totally agree with you that people should have their basic human rights protected. But that does not mean that, in our "Western arrogance" we can shove our own concept of it on other people. For some, having fresh water, food and a home is enough. If an Islamic guided nation/government is enough to supply them with that, then why should anyone intervene?
The intervention question is a tough one, I wish there were some clear answers and we'd had a working UNO. Till then, we can only see that in the case of Libya the Security Council decidedv to intervene, also with the votes of muslim countries btw.
And I see that a islamic-based law shoves their believe system on all the countries inhabitants. For example in the case of Tunesia, the islamists may have gotten a majority, however a democracy is not mob rule. In a working democratic system the rights of the people who did not vote for them must also be respected - and this is the right to believe or not whatever you want, aka freedom of religion.
There is also the point that while some people are happy when their basic needs are fulfilled, others would also like a working jurisdiction that does not allow to randomly take away your shelter and give your house to privileged members of the ruling party.
And, as previously stated, I can not see how minority rights are protected in a theocracy.
Another interesting point that I think raises some interesting questions, if you abolish a theocratic nation, where do you draw the line between how much power religion should have in a persons life?
The power that each individual allows religion to have over his own life. The interesting aspect of religion is that religion is always an individual thing, however people regard it as some kind of collective belief system.
Any religion has its sub-sections, shiites, baptists, hasedi, etc, etc. So who is right? Even among believers of the same sect, are massive, fundamental differences in certain questions.
Most of you, good sirs, remind me of that padishah Shaddam IV supporters, when he landed on Dune and slain Duke Leto.
NATO has no right to invade a sovereign state, steal their resources and kill their leader.
Period.
Stop posting your human right bull****. Every credible person on Earth perfectly understands that fact that US puppets never cared much about people rights.
Read 1984 and Fahrenheit 451 once again... once fiction, now this became our reality.
Dread Knot
10-26-11, 06:48 AM
Most of you, good sirs, remind me of that padishah Shaddam IV supporters, when he landed on Dune and slain Duke Leto.
Can I play the Baron Vladimir Harkonnen? :DL
Just gotta buy a gallon of accutane first.
http://www.wearysloth.com/Gallery/ActorsM/11732-5459.gif
CaptainHaplo
10-26-11, 07:23 AM
NATO has no right to invade a sovereign state, steal their resources and kill their leader.
The only fiction around here is the one you just put forth. Invade a sovereign state, steal their resources and kill their leader? When did we do that?
Afghanistan? Yea we really are stealing all the opium, arent we? Iraq? Funny - our gas and oil prices are higher now than they were before the Iraq war - must not be stealing that either.
Libya? We don't have anyone there to do the "stealing".
Egypt? Same as Libya.
Any other baseless claims you need me to shoot down for ya?
CaptainHaplo
I meant not you, not even US government, but oligarchs behind them. Those who control your and our presidents and run whole world economy.
Rotchshilds, Rockefellers, etc.
Tribesman
10-26-11, 08:22 AM
Yes, I always trust that a video which writes truth in capital letters will enlighten me.
Using semi-fascist Farrakhan as their spokesperson does not raise my interest. A quick check at the video makers YT-page: a truther, wow, who would have thought this. The first link in his friends list (alivera3), leads to a vid about the "Zionist Murder Of Muammar Gaddafi". Yay, there we have it!
Sorry but you are just showing your ignorance and blindness, people like you just don't want to know the truth, you are too quick to dismiss, if you had looked further you would have got to the enlightened teachings about Aliens running the earth, beware the puppeteers.;)
Though it has left me confused, as evil aliens are running the earth are they running NATO or Daffy or both?
CaptainHaplo
I meant not you, not even US government, but oligarchs behind them. Those who control your and our presidents and run whole world economy.
Rotchshilds, Rockefellers, etc.
Nah............
joegrundman
10-26-11, 12:04 PM
Rotchshilds, Rockefellers, etc.
dude, they are so early last century.
what was this thread about again?
Tribesman
10-26-11, 12:07 PM
dude, they are so early last century.
But you can now get it on Youtube
Jimbuna
10-26-11, 12:42 PM
I was wondering what the latest position regarding Gaddafis son Saif was:
Colonel Gaddafi's fugitive son Saif al-Islam today offered to hand himself in to the International Criminal Court in the Hague, according to a Libyan transitional government official.
The London-educated playboy, 39, is the last member of the hated despot’s family still feared to be at large in Libya.
Said and former intelligence chief Abdullah al-Senussi are proposing to surrender to the International Criminal Court, a senior military official with the National Transitional Council said today.
I must admit to having a second look at this :o
Observers speculated the brutal demise of his father - who was beaten to a bloody pulp and possibly even sodomised after his capture before getting a bullet in the brain - may have prompted his move.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2053467/Gaddafis-son-Saif-al-Islam-offers-hand-International-Criminal-Court.html
I wonder if he will make it alive.:hmmm:
Jimbuna
10-26-11, 01:06 PM
If the Libyans get to him first...highly unlikely I'd say :DL
mookiemookie
10-26-11, 01:11 PM
I must admit to having a second look at this :o
Some site I was reading had the entire video of his capture. The part in bold was done with a knife. :dead:
Jimbuna
10-26-11, 03:46 PM
Some site I was reading had the entire video of his capture. The part in bold was done with a knife. :dead:
Oh heck Mark!!...rather him than me :o
Penguin
10-26-11, 04:40 PM
Sorry but you are just showing your ignorance and blindness, people like you just don't want to know the truth, you are too quick to dismiss, if you had looked further you would have got to the enlightened teachings about Aliens running the earth, beware the puppeteers.;)
Though it has left me confused, as evil aliens are running the earth are they running NATO or Daffy or both?
I am sorry for being so uneducated :wah:, I will try to learn more of the TROOF. So are the guys from the planet Dune in charge or the Ewoks?
And who killed Bambi? Was it the NATO?
This brings me to the question, was Sid Vicious killed by Daffy, because he played in a band that raised that question?
@mookie: ouch! :o
mookiemookie
10-26-11, 04:47 PM
Oh heck Mark!!...rather him than me :o
Sic semper tyrannis, eh?
If the Libyans get to him first...highly unlikely I'd say :DL
He probably will be put to rape by 1000 camels.
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcThcl_zqz21BSiqxqw5Q_8AntY2BJTL_ aRVBP0_02aSrUFvcjo1
CaptainHaplo
10-26-11, 07:28 PM
CaptainHaplo
I meant not you, not even US government, but oligarchs behind them. Those who control your and our presidents and run whole world economy.
Rotchshilds, Rockefellers, etc.
Ah ok - then I read that wrong. I regret the tone I used.
TLAM Strike
10-26-11, 08:07 PM
Some site I was reading had the entire video of his capture. The part in bold was done with a knife. :dead:
For those interested... (http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/middle-east/111024/gaddafi-sodomized-video-gaddafi-sodomy)
This article says it was a Bayonet.
:o
I'm reminded of Kipling:
When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.
Krauter
10-26-11, 08:25 PM
That some non-democratic countries are "bad", some are "good" is not only valid for religious countries: just take a look how the US regards Cuba (badbadbad) vs China (we print our flag stickers there)
Very true. In my opinion, the idea of how "good" or "bad" a country is depends wholly on its citizens. If the citizens are happy, then I can honestly say that I don't think a country is bad. For example, (just an example...) all Cubans that I have met say that they are honestly happy with their country and how it is run. Now I can say I've never been to Cuba, but this is just some Cubans that I have met visiting here for training camps or tournaments, etc.
The intervention question is a tough one, I wish there were some clear answers and we'd had a working UNO. Till then, we can only see that in the case of Libya the Security Council decidedv to intervene, also with the votes of muslim countries btw.
I don't doubt that the UN did a good job in Libya, both in waiting for the rebels to ask for UN aid, as well as the fact that there were no boots on the ground. In my view, this is how the UN Security forces should act.
And I see that a islamic-based law shoves their believe system on all the countries inhabitants. For example in the case of Tunesia, the islamists may have gotten a majority, however a democracy is not mob rule. In a working democratic system the rights of the people who did not vote for them must also be respected - and this is the right to believe or not whatever you want, aka freedom of religion.
To me, this is simply a question of who is in charge. If you have hardline religious leaders, then you're going to have hardline religious laws. It all depends on the leaders and how they run the country...
There is also the point that while some people are happy when their basic needs are fulfilled, others would also like a working jurisdiction that does not allow to randomly take away your shelter and give your house to privileged members of the ruling party.
And, as previously stated, I can not see how minority rights are protected in a theocracy.
Excellent point.
The power that each individual allows religion to have over his own life. The interesting aspect of religion is that religion is always an individual thing, however people regard it as some kind of collective belief system.
Any religion has its sub-sections, shiites, baptists, hasedi, etc, etc. So who is right? Even among believers of the same sect, are massive, fundamental differences in certain questions.
And therein lies the problem, in my view, of a theocratically lead nation. You can't have on single ruler because there is always going to be strife between the different religious sects. In my opinion, something similar to a council, with multiple representatives, each representing different religious sects present within the country would be better suited to govern a theocratic nation rather than one single figurehead.
Jimbuna
10-27-11, 05:31 AM
Sic semper tyrannis, eh?
Most definitely!!
For those interested... (http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/middle-east/111024/gaddafi-sodomized-video-gaddafi-sodomy)
This article says it was a Bayonet.
:o
I'm reminded of Kipling:
Ouch.
Yeah, I think with those videos I can safely retract my skepticism over Gaddafi being lynched. Seems pretty obvious with those videos.
CaptainHaplo
10-27-11, 07:43 AM
Yet this simply shows the barbarity of those replacing him.
Of course, a government who wants nothing more than to be more extreme than the last - can we really be suprised?
In fairness, I'd be cautious calling it a government or tying his treatment to the NTC. Those who captured him were not by any definition a government, but a band of rebels, who honestly didn't seem to be very much under anyone's control. I don't think his treatment had anything to do with orders, just personal retribution.
Too early to talk about a government yet, so I wouldn't pass judgment on them at this point. There really isn't a working government there at all at the moment.
CaptainHaplo
10-27-11, 08:00 AM
In fairness, I'd be cautious calling it a government or tying his treatment to the NTC. Those who captured him were not by any definition a government, but a band of rebels, who honestly didn't seem to be very much under anyone's control. I don't think his treatment had anything to do with orders, just personal retribution.
Too early to talk about a government yet, so I wouldn't pass judgment on them at this point. There really isn't a working government there at all at the moment.
Define working government. Its a government that is internationally recognized, that has an emissary to the UN. That has stated its foundation going forward will be set upon a known set of law (sharia). If you mean that it isn't a federalized or centralized control structure for everything from logistics to cops and firefighters on the street, then ok. But by every international standard they exist as a government.
The group that captured him were fighters on behalf of the NTC. The NTC confirmed his capture - and his death - very rapidly. They were the directors of the rebellion. Yet barbarity happened - and the existing power structure had its rep in the UN saying "No, he wasn't lynched" as late as yesterday - when the facts show otherwise.
Add in their stated goal of having a country based on a law system that suppresses the human rights of many of its citizens (women especially) - go ahead and tell me that they are not headed down an ugly path.
I'm actually not claiming it's heading down any path. It's a wait-and-see for me. And frankly, the notion that they can't control the men fighting on their side doesn't reflect well on their effectiveness.
Everyone in Lybia probably knew pretty quickly about Gaddafi's demise. That has nothing to do with the NTCs information network - information these days spreads easily. Probably the average media watcher knew what was happening around the same time as the government officials. I really genuinely don't believe that anyone higher up had any control over Gaddafi's treatment.
I'm not being an optimist here, but I'll give them a benefit of the doubt. When your 'army' is composed of bands of poorly-trained, poorly-organized, but heavily armed men and you have weapons all over a very large but sparsely populated country, there's really a limit to what you can do to control the situation. I don't think the NTC is in control any more than, say, the government in Kabul has ever been in control of Afghanistan. That may be an internationally-recognized government, but not a de-facto very functional one. It's up to Lybians whether they get anywhere from here.
If the new Libya is Islamist, our interests were better served with Qaddafi.
Our interests are all that matters to me.
Note that our (US) interests are coincident with Europe's in this case, it does them no good to have a rich, fundamentalist Islamic state across a millpond from them.
Otherwise speaking more broadly about the 'truth' here, I think it's actually much more banal. I don't think it's either an oligarchic conspiracy to get the oil, or an Islamist conspiracy to sneak their agenda in.
I think the truth is that in Lybia, everyone actually went into it with poorly defined aims and a poor understanding of the situation. In other words, the truth is that noone actually knows what they wanted from Lybia. Even if you look at Lybians themselves, I don't think they quite know what they want from it either. The average Lybian was unhappy with his lot. Certain rebel groups wanted Gaddafi out, others might've been interested in Islamism. The US and Europe are under constant anxiety over their moral obsolescence and irrelevance, and are trying hard to assure themselves that they still matter in the Middle East and elsewhere. As a result, the cause came together for a 'Free Lybia'. Noone actually knows what that means, and noone actually seriously believes it either. In the end it's all just banal anxiety - the average Lybian is worried about his relevance and ability to live and consume safely in the global society, the rebel groups are anxious to matter, whether they're primarily political or religious; NATO was already late to the Arab Spring party, so this is essentially the West throwing a fit that they were not invited from the start. So they were eager to get invited, and jumped the first opportunity to get in, without thinking what that means. The only real motivation for that was staying relevant, no more, no less. What you get as a result is mass psychosis with multiple, equally-psychotic parties involved. You don't need any conspiracies to cause that. You just need to have a whole bunch of people eager to act on their own anxieties and desperate to be relevant, without even having any realistic exit goals.
PS - as you might guess, my conclusion is that it will probably not end well. But let's wait and see. In the end, the ball was already rolling. It's been set in motion by history going back much further than any recent events, and if you look at it in terms of the Arab Spring - it was going to happen anyway, sooner or later. Might as well be pleased that it happened now and, so far, it's not been an outright catastrophe for the West. Sitting by idly and pondering your own interests wouldn't have made this any easier.
West stance over Libya was the uncertainty on whom to place the bet while politically betting on Qaddafi in face of Arab spring wasn't good idea anyway.
So they took bet on lesser evil that gave some little control over the rebellion-which in long term remains to be seen.
I don't think it's an "islamist conspiracy," but I think that the religious are inherently more organized in that region. I also personally make very little distinction between the currently in favor "islamist," and simply "muslim." When a non-fundamentalist version of Islam is empowered I'll change my tune, but currently there are effectively no sects (in terms of total membership compared to muslims at large) that are not fundamentalist (I don't have a double standard, I apply the same definition I'd use for Christian fundies—holy book literalism and infallibility).
I'm more than happy to be pleasantly surprised, but I'd not bet a cup of coffee that things turn out well.
Jimbuna
10-28-11, 08:39 AM
Gaddafi son Saif al-Islam in contact with ICC
International prosecutors have had "informal contact" with the son of slain ex-Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi.
The International Criminal Court (ICC) said intermediaries had been used in indirect talks with Saif al-Islam.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-15496608
Looks like he'd rather rot in prison than meet the same end as his father.
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