View Full Version : Child given drugs to delay onset of puberty
Poor kid.
A lesbian couple in California who say their 11-year-old son Tommy may actually be a girl named Tammy are giving their child hormone blockers that delay the onset of puberty -- so that he can have more time to decide exactly who he, or she, is. The couple’s supporters say the Hormone Blocking Therapy has only minor side effects and is appropriate for a child who is unsure of his gender. "This is definitely a changing landscape for transgender youth," said Joel Baum, director of education and training for Gender Spectrum, a California-based non-profit group. "This is about giving kids and their families the opportunity to make the right decision."
But critics of the treatment say 11-year-olds are not old enough to make life-altering decisions about changing their gender, and parents should not be encouraging them. They say it’s too soon to tell what the side effects of the treatments may be, and they say Tommy’s parents, Pauline Moreno and Debra Lobel, are irresponsible for seeking them and allowing them to be administered.
"This is child abuse. It's like performing liposuction on an anorexic child," said Dr. Paul McHugh, professor of psychiatry at Johns Hopkins University.
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/10/17/controversial-therapy-for-young-transgender-patients-raises-questions/#ixzz1b3dM9Ajr
Jimbuna
10-17-11, 11:43 AM
Poor kid.
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/10/17/controversial-therapy-for-young-transgender-patients-raises-questions/#ixzz1b3dM9Ajr
Not well up on US law but can't something be done under some child endangerment offence?
Not well up on US law but can't something be done under some child endangerment offence?
I would have thought so but this is California.
mookiemookie
10-17-11, 11:57 AM
Sick.
And I can only imagine that Fox is bringing us this news on the front page with a big screaming headline to make the point that all same sex parents all across the nation are abusers and unfit for parenting.
Jimbuna
10-17-11, 11:58 AM
I would have thought so but this is California.
Human Rights Act? :hmmm:
mookiemookie
10-17-11, 12:02 PM
Human Rights Act? :hmmm:
I imagine the child protective services agency in California is going to be looking into this. I seem to recall they did with the woman who was having cosmetic surgery procedures done on her child. This seems like it's along the same lines.
AVGWarhawk
10-17-11, 12:03 PM
California is really the Country of California. The country follows it's own rights and laws depending on the day it is or how everyone is feeling that day. :doh:
Jimbuna
10-17-11, 12:17 PM
There's a moral in there somewhere Chris.....Don't travel to or reside in California unless your an adult?
AVGWarhawk
10-17-11, 12:23 PM
There's a moral in there somewhere Chris.....Don't travel to or reside in California unless your an adult?
Some adults that reside in CA think like children.
Jimbuna
10-17-11, 12:27 PM
Some adults that reside in CA think like children.
Not much different from some sections of society over here...unfortunately.
Sick.
And I can only imagine that Fox is bringing us this news on the front page with a big screaming headline to make the point that all same sex parents all across the nation are abusers and unfit for parenting.
Is it on the front page? I don't normally read it.
But of course they MUST have an ulterior motive right?
Crazy ...
"This is about giving kids and their families the opportunity to make the right decision."
....idiots.
soopaman2
10-17-11, 12:34 PM
I am appalled..Not at the story..But the spin put on it.
Is this some anti gay far rightwing Christian sharia stuff to make gay couples seem unfit for adoption? Some kind of pushback against gay marriage?
Seriously it reeks of religious antigay propaganda, think rationally about the tone of this.
Lunatics come in all shades and sizes, and sexual orientation. I can dig up thousands of stories of hetero couples abusing and even murdering their kids.
Don't buy into this divisive crap.:) (pardon my American)
This seems to focus on the gay factor of the parents...The act itself is disgusting though.
mookiemookie
10-17-11, 12:34 PM
Is it on the front page? I don't normally read it.
But of course they MUST have an ulterior motive right?
Just thought it was funny that it was headline, top of the page news when you go to www.foxnews.com. Why else would they do that?
Lunatics come in all shades and sizes, and sexual orientation. I can dig up thousands of stories of hetero couples abusing and even murdering their kids.
Exactly right.
I am appalled..Not at the story..But the spin put on it.
You're not appalled at the story? So you actually support what the parents are doing to this poor child, or is it just because it's Fox news that you need to knee jerk your way into excusing it?
FOX news is not "intellectual" i guess lol.
I admit that by not being so they sometimes get things right more often than others on some issues.:haha:
Tribesman
10-17-11, 12:54 PM
I seem to recall they did with the woman who was having cosmetic surgery procedures done on her child. This seems like it's along the same lines.
Could the last bit be relevant in another way?
That other story made headlines everywhere, everyone was shocked as it was a really shocking story, you could even say unbelivable.
Then it turned out it wasn't her child and the child wasn't having cosmetic surgery and but the child protection agency did get involved because it was exploitation of a minor to sell a made up story.
Come to think of it wasn't it another Murdoch "news" outlet that discovered that story?
mookiemookie
10-17-11, 01:03 PM
Could the last bit be relevant in another way?
That other story made headlines everywhere, everyone was shocked as it was a really shocking story, you could even say unbelivable.
Then it turned out it wasn't her child and the child wasn't having cosmetic surgery and but the child protection agency did get involved because it was exploitation of a minor to sell a made up story.
Come to think of it wasn't it another Murdoch "news" outlet that discovered that story?
Oh seriously? I never saw the follow-up to that. Wow. That is pretty scummy.
Tribesman
10-17-11, 01:09 PM
Oh seriously? I never saw the follow-up to that. Wow. That is pretty scummy.
It was covered in the topic here about 6 months ago.
Not saying that it is neccesarily the case with this story, but always take the news with a pinch of salt and if its a really shocking" OMG thats outrageous how on earth can people be so ...." take it with a whole barrel of salt.
A horrible story about two horrible parents from a horrible news outlet
AVGWarhawk
10-17-11, 01:36 PM
A horrible story about two horrible parents from a horrible news outlet
And horribly reported. :stare:
Sailor Steve
10-17-11, 01:37 PM
It is an appaling story. On the other hand the the point is also valid that there are many horror stories among hetero couples that never get mentioned by Fox, let alone make front-page headlines. Why is that?
It is an appaling story. On the other hand the the point is also valid that there are many horror stories among hetero couples that never get mentioned by Fox, let alone make front-page headlines. Why is that?
A quick scan of their RSS feed headlines contradicts your claim Steve.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/10/17/fbi-probes-dead-newborn-found-aboard-florida-cruise-ship/
http://video.foxnews.com/v/1222202785001/
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/10/17/philadelphia-police-find-four-malnourished-people-locked-in-basement/
I'm all for guy's rights and all but its hard not to look at this strange connection here.
So for fairness lets see it as some guy craziness vs heterosexual craziness.
What's "Gender Spectrum" has to do with it and what is that organisation about?
Sheesh, tough room here.
For the record I don't care whether it's a hetero couple or not.
For those who seem to doubt the story because they don't like the messenger how would you have prefer instead to see the story covered?
AVGWarhawk
10-17-11, 02:07 PM
Sheesh, tough room here.
For the record I don't care whether it's a hetero couple or not.
For those who seem to doubt the story because they don't like the messenger how would you have prefer instead to see the story covered?
Fox News is apparently hell spawned or something. :haha:
magicstix
10-17-11, 07:18 PM
I think everyone needs to take a deep breath and relax on this one. The drugs delay puberty, they don't make it impossible.
In cases of gender dysphoric disorder this is done so that the child can become old enough to make decision for themselves as to what to do.
Given that testosterone causes irreversible changes, I'd say they're doing the right thing in letting the child grow old enough to decide whether or not he wants to change. If he grows out of it, then all he has to do is go off the drugs and he'll develop like anyone else. If he chooses to go through with a transition, he'll be far better off.
magicstix
10-17-11, 09:07 PM
Sick bastards!:stare:
Yes those bastards! How dare they follow the treatment advice of a pediatric psychiatrist and treat their child's condition! MONSTERS!
You don't just go to to a Wal-mart and buy these puberty blocking drugs over the counter. The child is under the care and supervision of a medical doctor familiar with the case who knows more than a 5 minute sound bite on TV.
This isn't the first case of something like this occurring and it won't be the last. Gender Identity Disorder is in the DSM and has a known treatment. If behavior therapy worked on GID, they'd be using it, because it's a heck of a lot cheaper and easier than surgery and hormones.
Sailor Steve
10-17-11, 09:11 PM
A quick scan of their RSS feed headlines contradicts your claim Steve.
You're right. I listened to the wrong people this time. It happens, and I apologize.
The child is under the care and supervision of a medical doctor familiar with the case who knows more than a 5 minute sound bite on TV.
Michael Jackson was under the care and supervision of a medical doctor familiar with the case who knows more than a 5 minute sound bite on TV and look where he ended up.
So who's the authority then? Is it just me August, or are you actually arguing for the idea that legal guardians/family and licensed medicine are wrong and the society (and/or its representatives) is right and has a right to censure this particular issue?
So who's the authority then? Is it just me August, or are you actually arguing for the idea that legal guardians/family and licensed medicine are wrong and the society (and/or its representatives) is right and has a right to censure this particular issue?
Maybe I think society has a right to think it's a bad idea how about that?
Fair enough :)
It's a tricky situation though. I really have an aversion to 'trial by media' for a reason. That's why in cases like Jackson's, I'd rather legal and medical experts determine whether the doctor was wrong or right. On the other hand if they determine he was wrong, that won't bring Jackson back. Oops, too bad. Likewise, if here it turns out that the parents and doctors are wrong, that kid's gonna be pretty messed up. But perhaps at the end of the day, it's their prerogative to decide, and their responsibility to own up to consequences.
But ultimately I'd rather that media and popular thought keep a healthy distance from such decisions.
Sailor Steve
10-18-11, 12:24 AM
Maybe I think society has a right to think it's a bad idea how about that?
We think of it a little differently but reach the same conclusion. Obviously my current sig disagrees with your statement here, but it is my opinion that the individual child has a right to not have his life chemically or artificially change for what the Founders called "light or transient reasons".
Just like my opinion on seat belt laws. I loathe the whole "Click It Or Ticket" campaigns, and I made that known when they sent me a letter asking for support. No adult should be forced to protect themselves from themselves, but children do have the right to be protected from abusive or negligent parents.
A little off-topic, I know, but the principle is the same.
Just did a quick search on the issue due to magicstix post.
It seems that this is controversial treatment that may (or may not) help people.
From reading the quited original post i thought its another of those advanced Swedish experiments.
(learned something new:salute:)
Let professionals sort it out.....
May 8, 2008
Note: To protect the identities of this family, NPR has used only first names.
Robert and Danielle instituted an "only-in-the-house" rule when their son Armand was around 5, a modest effort to save him from himself.
By that point, Robert and Danielle were exhausted. They had tried for years to steer Armand away from female clothing, fearing their young son would become the object of neighborhood ridicule. But nothing they said or did seemed to make any difference. There was no dissuading him, and so the only-in-the-house rule seemed like reasonable compromise.
Armand agreed — he even seemed comfortable with it. He spent hours in the basement and backyard, playing with his sister's cast-offs.
But one day, Robert came home early and found Armand out front in the middle of their cul-de-sac. He was wearing a poodle skirt, swaying back and forth, singing. Wanting, Robert says he thought, the whole world to see.
"That caught me by surprise," Robert says. "There was worry."
A Minnie Mouse Dress and a Temper
This obsession with female clothing had started early, when Armand was around 2. He had found an old Minnie Mouse dress the family had gotten at Disneyland. He put it on and then refused to take it off.
"It was like, 'NO!' " Danielle says. "Feet in a stance, a strong stance, just standing there.... She pretty much from that point slept in it, stayed in it all day."
(Danielle and Robert now refer to their son as "she.")
Any effort to remove the dress would provoke an outburst. In fact, the more Robert and Danielle tried to limit Armand's behavior, the more explosive their son became. And it only got worse as Armand got older.
"The terrible twos became terrible threes and fours and horrible fives and intolerable sixes," Robert says. Armand "seemed on edge all of the time."
There were two-hour tantrums. Tornadoes of tears and screaming that left the family exhausted. Any comment could set Armand off, and, once triggered, there was no controlling him.
"One night I remember it got so bad, where she was so out of control ... I literally walked her out the front door and said, 'You need to stay,' " Robert says. "And it was probably at eleven o'clock at night. And I walked her out the front door, closed the door, because I didn't know what to do."
Robert remembers standing with Danielle beside the door, listening to his 6-year-old son scream.
"She was pounding on the door — and my wife and I looked at each other and said, 'What is happening? Why is this child so unhappy? What have we done?' " Robert says.
Doctors and More Doctors
The family consulted mental health professionals with all kinds of initials after their names. They passed out diagnoses with even more initials: ADD (attention-deficit disorder), OCD (obsessive-compulsive disorder).
"I mean, every conceivable diagnosis," Robert says. "But no one could put their finger on it."
Still, while the doctors were unable to find the right label, their son seemed to understand what was going on. Danielle says that during quiet moments, like the ride from school, her child would confess what was causing so much trouble.
"A lot of times she'd come out and say, 'I'm a girl.' No, at first it was, 'I want to be a girl,' then it's like 'No. I am a girl.' And she'd ask if me if I [thought] she was crazy and I'd say, 'No, honey, you know, it's OK.' And in the front, you know, I'm driving going ... 'Oh my gosh, what is this?' " Danielle says.
Gender Identity Disorder
After many years, the family found a psychologist who had experience with gender issues. At the end of a two-month evaluation, the therapist gave them a diagnosis: gender identity disorder.
Gender identity disorder is the label most psychiatrists and psychologists give to children who believe themselves to be born into the wrong biological body. It involves a range of behaviors, but on one end of the spectrum there are children like Armand: kids who are more than effeminate boys or masculine girls who may turn out to be gay in adulthood. These are children who genuinely believe they are girls — even though they have a male body — or boys, even though they have a female body.
The doctor explained that their son would, in all likelihood, grow up to be transgender — someone who lives as a member of the opposite sex.
Robert and Danielle say that at this point the diagnosis was more of a relief than a shock. They decided almost immediately to stop trying to force their son to live as a boy. And then looked, with some anxiety, to the future. Armand was close to 11 years old.
"We knew that puberty was around the corner and we needed to start looking into ... what do we do," Robert says. "How do we help this child, you know, develop in a way that is consistent with who she is."
A New Treatment
Robert and Danielle soon came to find out about a new, highly controversial, treatment for preteen kids with gender identity issues. The treatment allows kids to postpone puberty and avoid developing the physical attributes of the sex they were born with.
The treatment has been offered in the United States only for around four years. Essentially, kids who meet the criteria for gender identity disorder are given monthly injections of a medication that blocks their bodies from releasing sex hormones. This means that while the children continue to grow taller, for the three or four years they are on the medication, they are kept from maturing sexually.
Norman Spack, an endocrinologist at Children's Hospital in Boston, was one of the earliest practitioners of this treatment in the United States. He explains that doctors have actually been able to block sex hormones for decades — the technique has been used to treat everything from prostate cancer to fibroids — but it was only about 10 years ago that a medical group in the Netherlands decided to use it on kids like Armand.
"They had the idea. ... They decided to see what would happen if they took such a child that was in such distress over their body, [and stopped their body from] taking the form that they feared," he says.
To put off puberty, children –- usually between 10 and 13 — are injected with hormone blockers once a month. Spack explains that the blockers only affect the gonads, the organs responsible for turning boys into men and girls into women.
"If you can block the gonads, that is the ovary or the testis [in men], from making its sex steroids, that being estrogen or testosterone, then you can literally prevent ... almost all the physical differences between the genders," Spack explains.
Without testosterone, boys will not grow facial or body hair. Their voices will not deepen. There will be no Adams apple, and height growth will slow. Without estrogen, girls will not develop breasts, fat at the hip, or menstrual periods. And since most growth happens before puberty, if you block estrogen — and therefore puberty — girls will grow taller, closer to a typical male height.
The hormone blockers are the first stage of the treatment, but there's a second stage that's possible. Once children have postponed puberty for three or four years, at around age 16 they can choose to begin maturing sexually into the opposite gender, the gender they want to become. To do this, they begin taking the hormones of the opposite sex. For males, taking estrogen at this point will bring on breast and hip growth — and all the attributes physical and emotional of females. The reverse will happen for girls who take testosterone. Spack says this treatment can help make an adult transgender male almost indistinguishable from a biological male in terms of physical appearance.
"We can make it possible that they can fit in in the way they want to. It is really quite amazing," he says.
If, however, puberty is not blocked — if it is allowed to happen naturally and sexual maturity takes place on time — fitting in as a transgender adult is more difficult. An adult man who chooses to become a woman by taking estrogen will still tower over other women. He'll have larger hands and feet, a pronounced brow, and facial and body hair that will need to be removed. These are physical attributes that can set a transgender person apart and make day-to-day life more difficult.
This is exactly the fate that Robert and Danielle hope to help Armand avoid. Armand will soon start the hormone blockers, but in the meantime, he is already living as a girl. Danielle says she and Robert decided to allow Armand to transition after they got the official diagnosis.
"Once we officially knew that [Armand] was transgender it was like, 'What do you need? You tell us.' We weren't going to try to control anymore; we'd been doing that for years. So it was like, 'What do you need? What do you want?' " Danielle says.
Armand was clear. He wanted to be called Violet, not Armand. He wanted to be known as their daughter, not their son. He wanted his parents to call him a "she."
Robert and Danielle agreed. The first official day of Violet's new life was Aug. 19, 2007. It was the first day of a family vacation. Armand — now Violet — was 10. And Robert says her emotional transformation that day was nothing short of astonishing.
"It was the happiest kid I'd ever seen. Just lit up. Just ... brilliant and funny and these things that we caught glimpses of that weren't always there," he says.
Since the transition there has not been any real outburst. Still, there have been challenges. Last September, Violet returned to school, this time as a girl. Though the school was supportive, Robert says he and Danielle were terrified.
"You know just that walk from the car to the front doors of the school was the longest walk of our lives," he says. "Violet broke my heart and I was proud of her all at the same time," Robert says.
He says when Violet got out of the car she immediately put a on long coat and put her hood up. She started walking behind her father and mother. "We said, 'No!' You are not going to do this. You're not going to walk behind anybody. We're going to walk together. And we held hands and we marched right up the sidewalk into those doors. Into an extreme unknown," he says.
And their worst fears — of ridicule, of violence — were not realized. At the end of the day, Violet skipped to the car and reported she had had a great day.
Robert says that since the family event, and Violet's transition, there's been a new level of peace in his household, a liberating clarity. "There is no doubt at this point in our lives that we have a transgender child. ... And there is no doubt in our mind that we are going to do what we can to help her," he says.
A Side Effect of Treatment
But not everyone believes that it is possible to know with this level of certainty that a child is transgender. There are two views in this debate.
Polly Carmichael, a British psychologist who works at the Portman Clinic in London, which has a unit specifically dedicated to gender identity, says the identity of most children this age is in constant flux.
"You can have a child who is presenting with absolute certainty, but it may be that at a later point they will decide that is not in fact what they want and their feelings may indeed change," Carmichael says.
The Portman clinic has treated 124 kids since 1989. It requires children to live as the gender they were born with. And 80 percent of its patients — once grown — chose as adults to keep their biological gender.
The opposite outcome was seen by the researchers in the Netherlands who first developed the hormone-blocking treatment. They have treated 100 patients and all chose — as adults — to live as the opposite sex.
So the verdict is still out about how many kids with gender identity disorder will choose sexual reassignment as adults — that is, to live as a member of the opposite sex by changing physical appearance or by having a sex change operation. This makes deciding on treatment very difficult, because there is one very serious side effect to the second part of the treatment.
Taking testosterone or estrogen immediately after blocking puberty will make a teenage patient sterile.
Spack, the endocrinologist at Children's Hospital in Boston, says that because the gonads do not mature before they are exposed to the hormones of the opposite sex, the gonads become too damaged to produce either viable eggs or viable sperm.
"This is one of the most controversial aspects of this. At what age can a young person fully understand the implications of doing something that will make fertility for them, by today's technology, virtually impossible?" he says.
Spack, however, is quick to point out that there is no risk of infertility from the hormone-blocking treatment alone. Infertility only comes when the hormone-blocking treatment is paired with Stage 2, the use of opposite-sex hormones. And so, Spack says, hormone blockers should really be seen simply as a treatment that gives families more time to think about what to do.
"It's a lot different to be talking to a 14-, 15-, 16-year-old about the implications of this than a 10- to 12-year-old," he says. "And so it buys you time ... without the tremendous fear of their body getting out of control."
Heading into the Future
Robert says he, too, sees the hormone blockers as a way of buying time. And he remains absolutely certain that Violet is genuinely transgender. In fact, he finds himself almost offended when people suggest that he and his family have been too quick to embrace a transgender identity.
"It puzzles me because we even have well-intentioned parents who we care about and who know us ... say, 'Well she's too young to know!' Well, when did you know you were a girl? When did I know I was a boy? I knew my whole life, I can't tell you exactly when, but it wasn't like I was 10 and realized, 'Oh gee, I must be a boy!' " Robert says. "What people fail to realize is they made that decision way earlier than that. It just happened that their gender identity and their anatomy matched."
In terms of how Violet thinks about hormone blockers, her older sister, Melina, says that the problem of puberty is very much on her mind. "She's getting hair in some places and stuff and ... every day she says that she feels a little bit more manly. Which is really hard for her."
Melina, who is 14, says she sometimes thinks about what it would be like if she woke up every day to a body that was slowing turning male. If she were growing in ways that felt alien and frightening.
"To go through the process of the gender that you're really not ... that must be the most scariest most disgusting thing ... I can't even imagine what that's like," she says.
[I]You can hear the radio version of this story by listening to today's On Health podcast
danny60
10-18-11, 05:26 PM
This is rediculous,
Their saying this child doesn't know what sex they are? If you can't figure that out theirs something seriously wrong, and it might be worth a trip down to the docs.
These "parents" should be ashamed of themselves, just because they want to be different doesn't mean they can force there child to be the same.
Karle94
10-18-11, 05:32 PM
I am appalled..Not at the story..But the spin put on it.
Is this some anti gay far rightwing Christian sharia stuff to make gay couples seem unfit for adoption? Some kind of pushback against gay marriage?
Seriously it reeks of religious antigay propaganda, think rationally about the tone of this.
Lunatics come in all shades and sizes, and sexual orientation. I can dig up thousands of stories of hetero couples abusing and even murdering their kids.
Don't buy into this divisive crap.:) (pardon my American)
This seems to focus on the gay factor of the parents...The act itself is disgusting though.
Here in Norway the christians think that gay people can be converted, just as with religion. Yes, we do have sick people in Norway too.
CaptainMattJ.
10-18-11, 05:46 PM
well, if "she" wants to be a woman, than they have no right to stop her. The drugs dont make it impossible to become a pubescent adult, but it gives him/her the time to figure things out as they age and become wiser, and capable of making decisions for themselves.
well, if "she" wants to be a woman, than they have no right to stop her. The drugs dont make it impossible to become a pubescent adult, but it gives him/her the time to figure things out as they age and become wiser, and capable of making decisions for themselves.
I'd think that few 14 or 15 year olds would be competent to make such a weighty decision. If they are then they ought to be competent to drive, drink and smoke too.
magicstix
10-18-11, 06:09 PM
Michael Jackson was under the care and supervision of a medical doctor familiar with the case who knows more than a 5 minute sound bite on TV and look where he ended up.
Reductio ad absurdum is not a logical argument.
Reductio ad absurdum is not a logical argument.
:DL:DL
Jimbuna
10-18-11, 06:12 PM
I'd think that few 14 or 15 year olds would be competent to make such a weighty decision. If they are then they ought to be competent to drive, drink and smoke too.
Aye that.
CaptainMattJ.
10-18-11, 06:18 PM
I'd think that few 14 or 15 year olds would be competent to make such a weighty decision. If they are then they ought to be competent to drive, drink and smoke too.
well yes, i think they should be 18 to make the final decision to go into the other hormone treatments and procedures. But im not entirely sure if they can put them on the drugs for that long. But putting them on the drugs in the first place, assuming the child is truly adhering to such thoughts and feelings in such a strong way, shouldnt be condemned or prohibited.
magicstix
10-18-11, 06:20 PM
I'd think that few 14 or 15 year olds would be competent to make such a weighty decision. If they are then they ought to be competent to drive, drink and smoke too.
Then he/she can wait till he/she is 18. In any case the people involved are thinking of the child's best interests, which you apparently aren't.
Why does it bother you so much that someone is choosing to raise their child differently than you? How does it affect you? No harm is done to the child, in fact quite the opposite.
Where do you as a person get off telling someone else how to raise their kids? Isn't conservatism supposed to be about these exact individual rights and choices?
Tribesman
10-19-11, 01:30 AM
Isn't conservatism supposed to be about these exact individual rights and choices?
Its about rights and choices they agree with, in the same way as its benefits they earned but handouts others demand.
Oh, FFS
Since when was what sex you are physically a 'choice' except in the rarest of cases when the child is androgynous and a medical choice has to be made?
I'm all for live and let live when it comes to lifestyle choices, but I think these 'two mommies' need their heads testing.
At face value, this story is akin to the one I heard about the vegan who only fed her cat vegetables because it fit better with her ideology.
For the record I'd have the same opinion of a heterosexual couple who sought to assert some gender assignment contrary to the child's physical makeup.
Granted there may be a deeper mental aspect to the child's development, but again, I'd have to ask (no matter how incorrect it sounds) would a child raised by two gay women have a more profound confusion as to it's gender/sex than a child raised by a man and a woman? I don't know the answer to this and by no means is it to say that same sex couples cannot raise well adjusted kids, but messing with gender unless there's a specific physical need to do so, is a sure fire way to damage a kid.
I know one thing; the child is going to have a deeply confused and unhappy life having such confusion over his gender, never mind the stigma he will undoubtedly experience in his peer group come his early teens.
Maybe my view is a bit old fashioned and not a progressive as some, but there are some things you just don't meddle with.
In this world we do not have 'rights' we have privileges - there's a subtle difference.
The OP blur lacks critical information. Is the kid intersex? There are several legitimate types of intersex (a few years ago when I helped my wife study for her medical boards in urology I would have remembered all the types, lol, she made me go over all that with her since it was stuff she had not seen in RL). Anyway, if the kid has a physiological issue, this treatment is entirely right. It can make a difference in gender assignment surgery, etc, later.
Again, need more information.
Funny story. My wife saw an old guy—ww2 or korea vet (I can't remember)—at the VA when she was a resident. Married, no kids. Don;t remember what he presented with. She examines him, talks to him, etc. Goes out to the guys doc who has seen him at the VA for years and who called her for a consult... she asks him if he ever notice the guy's pubic hair was a triangle, not a diamond shape? The doc looks at her like "WTF?" She says, "the guy is intersex. Sure enough on some future bloodwork she adds some tests, and the guy is genetically female. (she never told the patient, BTW, some 80 YO doesn't need to know that). None of the guy's docs had ever noticed.
Takeda Shingen
10-19-11, 09:04 AM
But of course they MUST have an ulterior motive right?
Well, if it looks like a duck, waddles like a duck and quacks like a duck it probably isn't a chipmunk.
Then he/she can wait till he/she is 18. In any case the people involved are thinking of the child's best interests, which you apparently aren't.
Actually I think I am looking out for the child's interests. You on the other hand seem to be ok with the parents playing God with a child's physical and mental development.
Why does it bother you so much that someone is choosing to raise their child differently than you?
Giving a child drugs that alter the natural growing process is a heck of a lot more intrusive than just "choosing to raise their child differently". You talk about it like it's a hairstyle choice.
Where do you as a person get off telling someone else how to raise their kids? Isn't conservatism supposed to be about these exact individual rights and choices?Where do you "as a person" get off telling me what opinions i'm allowed to have?
Unless there is a real diagnosis of intersex, I think the child should wait til he/she is an adult to decide, period. Without such a diagnosis it is a psych issue, not a medical issue. Maybe he's just gonna be a drag queen (which is fine).
magicstix
10-19-11, 07:16 PM
Unless there is a real diagnosis of intersex, I think the child should wait til he/she is an adult to decide, period. Without such a diagnosis it is a psych issue, not a medical issue. Maybe he's just gonna be a drag queen (which is fine).
The problem is if you force the child to wait until he/she is 18, it's too late. Puberty causes irreversible changes. What they're doing now is the absolute correct thing, as it allows the child to make the choice with no regrets. Would you force your kid to wait until he's 18 to get a cast on a broken arm? To remove an appendix? To fix a birth defect?
There's no difference between a psych issue and a "medical" issue. It all starts in the brain. We give antidepressants for depression, anxiolytics for anxiety, anti-psychotics for bipolar disorders, schizophrenia, etc...
Would you all be crying foul if they were giving this child Ritalin for a diagnosed condition of ADHD? Or Prozac for depression? What about Xanax or Lexapro for a severe anxiety disorder?
Gender Identity Disorder has a better understood biological basis than most psychological issues. Gender identity is biologically set in the brain and it doesn't always match the body; there are plenty of studies to back this up. It has essentially nothing to do with nurture. The parents aren't forcing the child to do *anything.* They're following their psychiatrist's recommendations in the case. GID has a known treatment when properly diagnosed: reassignment surgery, and they've made it clear to the child that at ANY time if he wants to go back to being a boy that it's OK and that he *should.*
Read the actual case. The child insisted he was female from an early age, which is a classic sign of GID.
I think the problem here is a lot of people have this "icky factor" because it just seems weird to them that someone would want to change their gender. Try putting yourself in the other shoe. Say you wake up one morning as the opposite gender. Given the demographics for this forum I'll assume for most of you that means you'll be waking up as a girl. Now on top of that, say people are telling you that you *must* like men and *must* dress and act like a girl, because you look like a girl to everyone else, and that if you don't agree there's something wrong with you. You'd probably think that sucks, wouldn't you? Pretty much all people with GID don't *want* to have it, who would want to put themselves through all of the madness involved in a sex change? Most of them wish it would just go away and they could be happy with their physical gender. Unfortunately, there's no pill or treatment out there that has been able to change the brain to match the body, so the current treatment is to go the opposite direction. The vast majority of them that go through the procedure are better off for it. Just look at before and after pictures. On the before side, you usually see some mopey boy/girl who looks like they hate life, never smiling in any picture, more or less drifting through life. On the after side, they're always smiling, even if the results are less than stellar.
I think a lot of the "ickiness" comes from people who don't transition well (i.e. they still look like guys/girls, or are otherwise less than attractive). The sad thing is this just shows vanity in people.
Ask yourself, would you be so creeped out if the sex change were perfect? If it was impossible for you to tell the other person used to be the opposite gender, would you care?
If your answer is no, then you can't be opposed to what the parents are doing in this case, because by delaying puberty they're allowing the child to have as perfect a transition as possible under current medical technology. In almost every way, shape, and form, it will be as if he were born female, and he'll be happier and healthier for it.
If your answer is yes, you have to ask yourself why. If your only answer is "turning yourself into a girl is icky," then consider this: *all* of you started out female in the womb. The "default" path of human development is female. At 8 weeks, if you have a Y chromosome, your gender changes to male.
The parents are doing the right thing for a child who is obviously suffering. For what reason would you deny another human being who is not harming you or affecting you in any way at all their happiness?
magicstix
10-19-11, 07:19 PM
In this world we do not have 'rights' we have privileges - there's a subtle difference.
This statement could not be more antithetical to the American spirit. Such a mentality is what is so pervasive on the left with their view that the government should control every aspect of our lives.
Platapus
10-19-11, 07:19 PM
But of course they MUST have an ulterior motive right?
They do have motivations. It does not have to be ulterior. In the case of Fox News, there is nothing ulterior about their motives.
Sailor Steve
10-19-11, 07:52 PM
This statement could not be more antithetical to the American spirit. Such a mentality is what is so pervasive on the left with their view that the government should control every aspect of our lives.
Yep, that could only have been said by someone who is a subject, and not a citizen. Part of the reason for the 'Declaration of Independence' thread. :sunny:
Lord Justice
10-19-11, 08:00 PM
Yep, that could only have been said by someone who is a subject, and not a citizen. Part of the reason for the 'Declaration of Independence' thread. :sunny: :rotfl2: Very good I must say. Now I must decide Steve, who is a subject or an independent. ;)
Sailor Steve
10-19-11, 08:01 PM
:rotfl2: Very good I must say. Now I must decide Steve, who is a subject or an independent. ;)
Well, I'm subject to several things I don't like including certain rules, regulations and infirmities, and not as independent as I wish I was. :dead:
mookiemookie
10-19-11, 08:45 PM
Yep, that could only have been said by someone who is a subject, and not a citizen. Part of the reason for the 'Declaration of Independence' thread. :sunny:
:rotfl2:The statement did make my inner John Locke cringe a bit.
This statement could not be more antithetical to the American spirit. Such a mentality is what is so pervasive on the left with their view that the government should control every aspect of our lives.
If I'm understanding you correctly (and I might be way off the mark lol) you think my statement is either a bad thing or an untruth, or both? Certainly contrary to what makes america such a great place (you'll forgive the phrasing - I couldn't think of a more diplomatic way to put it :oops: )
I'd say it was quite correct - everyone bangs on about established rights (not just over there with you guys, but here in the UK too), my right, your rights, enshrined rights, constitutional rights, the list goes on. However the rights of the individual only stretch so far as they don't impinge upon other individuals; and in the case of governments, only as far as it suits them to grant you rights. Rights which governments will quite happily rescind at any time if they feel the justification to do so, hence they are privileges and not rights.
As one example, ask any japanese american about his rights back in 1942.
People can be snide about who is a 'citizen' and who is a 'subject', but you cannot say that under either system, you have any more or less entitlement to rights in a democratic system. Governments will more or less do as they please when they make laws; from the rights to personal freedoms of individuals and groups, to corporate taxation and healthcare. Sure you have the right to have your voice ignored :O:
Sailor Steve
10-21-11, 06:58 PM
To drive on a public street is a priveledge, because to do so without proper permission endangers others. To threaten another person with a weapon is neither a right nor a priveledge, because people have the right to be secure in their homes and lives. To speak my mind is a right, whether some authority denies it or not.
Rights are not priveledges, and priveledges are not rights. We relinquish certain rights in certain areas for the common good. That doesn't make them priveledges.
As I said, waiting til they are adult to decide since this is a psych issue if not intersex. The puberty delay is just that. Delaying puberty until they are of legal majority to decide themselves.
The trouble is that it can have adverse effects long term. <shrug>
If the parents have the right to control medical care for children, then it is the parents' decision alone and anyone in favor of that for other procedures (abortion requiring parents' decision, for example) should be happy.
When I say "medical," I mean physiological, not just mental. Ie: there needs to be a physical test to show it (hormone imbalance, brain scan, etc).
My concern is that the kid doesn't make the wrong decision before they know better, nothing more. There is some data apparently that shows a % get over those feelings. This is unsurprising given the hormonal blitz in puberty. If he is physically a boy, and the testosterone level spikes, it might well just go away in some % of those affected.
I have no "ick" factor.
magicstix
10-25-11, 06:48 PM
As I said, waiting til they are adult to decide since this is a psych issue if not intersex. The puberty delay is just that. Delaying puberty until they are of legal majority to decide themselves.
The trouble is that it can have adverse effects long term. <shrug>
If the parents have the right to control medical care for children, then it is the parents' decision alone and anyone in favor of that for other procedures (abortion requiring parents' decision, for example) should be happy.
When I say "medical," I mean physiological, not just mental. Ie: there needs to be a physical test to show it (hormone imbalance, brain scan, etc).
My concern is that the kid doesn't make the wrong decision before they know better, nothing more. There is some data apparently that shows a % get over those feelings. This is unsurprising given the hormonal blitz in puberty. If he is physically a boy, and the testosterone level spikes, it might well just go away in some % of those affected.
I have no "ick" factor.
You seem to show a strong misunderstanding of the condition this child is suffering from. "Intersex" is a condition in which the child has physically ambiguous gender, generally stemming from a congenital insensitivity to testosterone. "Transgendered" is a condition in which the child has a strong aversion to their physical gender. The cause is poorly understood, but the biology isn't. However the only sure test for transgenderism is examining the brain at autopsy. I assume requiring that amount of "proof" would be too extreme even for you.
There are any number of "mental" conditions as you put it that cannot be tested for using a physiological test. Depression, anxiety, schizophrenia, and ADHD to name a few. There is no blood test, MRI, whatever, that can detect these very real conditions. All have poorly understood geneses, all have very real and very successful physical treatments, generally using medication, though in some extremes using surgery.
The troubling thing with this thread is there is a lot of "these parents are monsters because they didn't do what I would do" when the parents are following the advice of a trained medical physician.
My question for these people is if taking the child to the doctor and following his/her treatment recommendations that are endorsed and specified by the larger medical community is not what they would do in this case, then what *would* they do? Beat it out of the child? Electroshock? Bible camp?
There are 4 types of intersex if I remember correctly (I read the stuff to my wife on a long distance drive when she was studying for her Urology boards). I have a reasonable understanding of it. It is not just insensitivity to testosterone. There are both hormonal, and genetic causes for the various types. My wife is in the "wait for them to grow up" camp, medically, though she doesn't see many peds patients (there are peds urologists at the U who see more, and she doesn't like to treat patients as guinea pigs).
Some might well be better served with early medical treatment, OTOH, if you were surgically made a girl because you had intersex with micropenis, etc, and later you would prefer to be male, you are screwed. Hence delay as the best option in most cases—the most well-meaning parents are not the person with the disorder, and can make a mistake.
A quick look at wiki shows there are studies using MRIs on transgenders, and that the physical brain difference work was equivocal since they didn't check for hormone use in subjects. In terms of other mental illness, you can treat depression, etc, empirically, and it will get better. That is a sort of physical test. If it were possible to treat transgenders with a drug such that the aberrant feelings went away... you'd likely have people complaining that it was not aberrant and should not be treated.
BTW, schizophrenia has no really successful treatment. Drugs work well for some, for some period of time, but it's pretty much a crap shoot, and the side effects are terrible. It's only a lucky few who can have it as a treatable, chronic disorder, sadly (my brother was schizophrenic, I know a little about that, too).
Bottom line is that I'm fine with delaying treatment until they are adults, and if they can temporize it by delaying puberty without adverse effects, that's fine as well. It's personal enough that the patient should decide, not the parents if at all possible.
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