New to sh4 from sh3

[Renesco]

Hi I asked a few questions in another thread but thought I would make my own because I've a lot of questions to ask about sh4, I'm a long time sh3 player who finally bit the bullet and got sh4 but I'm largely unimpressed with it except for the shift rotation ability and graphics.

1) can I get a weather report in sh4 like I could in sh3 ?
2) is there a limit on flak and deck gun use in bad weather like in sh3 ?
3) on the attack map in sh3 there was a green line which you could use to tell when the torpedo was going to be fired at 0 degrees to hit your target dead on you can see it here (http://static.griefwatch.net/gallery/b117e67d708d4ba0667aeecedbb73e9a.jpg) I can't find something similar in sh4 how can I tell when a shot is good besides the green/yellow arrow ? is there a torpedo predicted 'flight path' like in sh3 ?
4) The camera is way too far off the sub on external view when you use . and , is there some way to make that closer to the sub / target so you don't have to hold down shift+up to zoom in every time I look externally?
5) is there a stealth meter? how to tell when detected?
6) is there a target info booklet like in sh3 that will tell you tonnage of target?
7) how do you tell how much percentage hull you have left ? I've seen no hull strength meter either
8) is it normal that torpedoes take only 2 minutes to reload even with 'realistic reload speed' checked ? it takes 10 minutes in sh3 per reload which I prefer for realism
9) is the crew supposed to shout constantly as if under attack even when there's nothing nearby ? every order I give even mundane ones the crew scream 'YES SIR' as if in mortal fear
10) is there an easier way to move crew around than drag and drop? should I keep more crew than is needed for the 3 shifts and just leave the rest in the repair squad thing?
11) my deck gun and flak gun won't fire at will even after orders to, why? do I need to pick a target?

thanks guys I know I have a lot of questions, would be cool for some vets to give me a few pointers on these things.

[Andrew82]

1) Yes you can
2) You can use it whenever you want provided your surfaced, question is how useful it is in bad weather conditions
3) Press F6 for the attack map, if you have a solution a predicted torpedo path is displayed.
4) You can move it around with mouse and arrow keys
5) No, generally; surfaced: if you can see the enemy they can see you. Submerged: Didn't you pay attention while attending subschool? :03: There are some great guides on both passive and active sonar posted somewhere.
Search the "Subskipper bag of tricks" tread. edit: http://www.ducimus.net/sh415/ai.htm
6) Yes there is, the recognition manual has it al.
7) In the damage screen top left displays hull damage in %.
8) No that is not normal, guess something went wrong with your realism settings.
9) Only when your sub has been damaged.
10) No, just drag and drop.
11) There should be an enemy target around

Tried to answer your questions at my best knowledge, but i'm not the most experienced skipper around..
:salute:

[Sailor Steve]

It looks like Andrew82 gave you most of the answers, so I'll just fill in a little.

4) The camera is way too far off the sub on external view when you use . and , is there some way to make that closer to the sub / target so you don't have to hold down shift+up to zoom in every time I look externally?
What mods are you using. The last I remember in the stock version it works exactly like SH3. With supermods that gets broken. Since it gets broken exactly the same way no matter which supermod I use, I have to assume the problem is with the game itself and not the mods. On the other hand, you only have to zoom in the first time you go to external views. After that it will be where you left it.

5) is there a stealth meter? how to tell when detected?
In SH3 the Stealth Meter only tells how noisy you are at the moment. It doesn't tell you if you've been detected. As long as you're only making 2 knots and have silent running enabled you're being plenty quiet and don't need some phony meter to tell you. On the other hand, they might still find you.


11) my deck gun and flak gun won't fire at will even after orders to, why? do I need to pick a target?
That's one of the things that got broken in SH4. You need to move crew into the deck gun slots or they won't be there. Don't forget to move them back when you dive or depth charges can kill them.

[Daniel Prates]

All questions covered in two replies! A new record.

[Rockin Robbins]

It's just a real shame that the devs capitulated to the crybabies who wailed for a hull damage meter. This is not supposed to be a video game. The real submarine crews had no clue what their percentage of unrepairable hull damage was and neither should we.

I'm darned glad they deep sixed the hokey stealth meter. I've looked at photos of dozens of submarines and haven't seen one yet in submarine or U-Boat.

If we're going to have a hull damage gauge, we also need:


A dirty underwear gauge. How are we supposed to measure crew morale if we don't know how many of them have dirty underwear? That is a travesty and we shouldn't have to put up with it.
A toilet occupied/unoccupied light. That could be the most important indicator on the whole submarine if you happen to have the dirty squirts! How do you know whether to bolt for the door or the deck in a pinch without this vital indicator?
An oven temperature gauge. After every successful encounter, there is a victory cake baked. It is impossible to bake that cake without an oven temperature indicator gauge.
A superstructure rust gauge. Again, knowing the effectiveness of your crew is impossible without knowing how well they are maintaining the topsides. I hate being embarrassed when Admiral Lockwood is aboard just because Ubi didn't give me a superstructure rust gauge.

So we have a completely bogus gauge, but lack these four gauges without which we can't realistically play the game. Go figure!

Oh, there is one more gauge.......
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/smileys/a4127605-7-BS-Meter.gif

[Renesco]

1) Yes you can
2) You can use it whenever you want provided your surfaced, question is how useful it is in bad weather conditions
3) Press F6 for the attack map, if you have a solution a predicted torpedo path is displayed.
4) You can move it around with mouse and arrow keys
5) No, generally; surfaced: if you can see the enemy they can see you. Submerged: Didn't you pay attention while attending subschool? :03: There are some great guides on both passive and active sonar posted somewhere.
Search the "Subskipper bag of tricks" tread. edit: http://www.ducimus.net/sh415/ai.htm
6) Yes there is, the recognition manual has it al.
7) In the damage screen top left displays hull damage in %.
8) No that is not normal, guess something went wrong with your realism settings.
9) Only when your sub has been damaged.
10) No, just drag and drop.
11) There should be an enemy target around

Tried to answer your questions at my best knowledge, but i'm not the most experienced skipper around..
:salute:

1) where I see no option for it after playing for about 8 hours
2) thx
3) F6 brings up the deck gun
4) I know that but I want to change it's default view in a .cfg file so it's not zoomed out to the maximum every time I look
5) I get the gist of staying hidden from sh3 but I was just wondering if there was a meter and I was missing it
6) is there a more convenient way to see tonnage while on periscope view than flicking through the manual?
7) not in my version there isn't (1.3 on steam)
8) It resets every time I start the game / start a mission and changing it in the .cfg files does nothing it still resets to 2 minute reloads, realistic reload has no effect even when it's on
9) my crew constantly screams as if under attack
10) thx
11) I didn't have it manned, figured it out.

all in all this game is very buggy and not much fun compared to sh3, some things are just deal breakers for me, like realistic reload not working and ever since I've installed it my sound settings keep changing to 'quadrophonic speakers' meaning lots of sound problems on other games.

[Renesco]

It looks like Andrew82 gave you most of the answers, so I'll just fill in a little.


What mods are you using.

I'm using steam retail version without the U-boat add-on, it says version 1.3 on the title screen, no mods.

[Rockin Robbins]

I'm afraid nobody is running v1.3. No mods will work properly and nobody has played the version in four years. Version 1.3 was the first really viable version of SH4 and was very playable. However, for anything to work properly you have to run version 1.5, which is U-Boat Missions. There are very few mods available for 1.4 and next to none left for 1.3.

The advice for pressing F6 for the attack map came from a Trigger Maru Overhauled or Fall of the Rising Sun user. Those mods reconfigure the keyboard to be more like SH3. In the unmodded game I think the attack map is available only from one of the button bars. It does show torpedo path, but not the same way as SH3. I like it better.

Your answer to #6 is that in the DVD version of the program there was a "manual" whose only redeeming quality was the ship diagrams showing the tonnage. Actually I have looked at the manual in the past week and it has quite a bit of decent information, just none on how to play the game...... DVD versions morphed into having the manual on the DVD as a pdf file. I don't know if you get that with the Steam version.

Generally I hate online versions of games because they are typically crippled with a very low number of allowed installs. Steam kills that objection completely, but unfortunately they have made available a very archaic version that nobody plays. You really, really need U-Boat missions and it's best bought on DVD. Steam would be second choice.

[Daniel Prates]

It's just a real shame that the devs capitulated to the crybabies who wailed for a hull damage meter. This is not supposed to be a video game. The real submarine crews had no clue what their percentage of unrepairable hull damage was and neither should we.

One of GWX's many outstanding changes to the game (SH3, that is). We should have something similar.

[Andrew82]

The advice for pressing F6 for the attack map came from a Trigger Maru Overhauled or Fall of the Rising Sun user. Those mods reconfigure the keyboard to be more like SH3. In the unmodded game I think the attack map is available only from one of the button bars. It does show torpedo path, but not the same way as SH3. I like it better.



Yep, I run TMO, so my bad. Thnx for clearing that out RR! :salute:



@Renesco, My best suggestion for you would be to get a copy of SH4 gold on ebay for a few $ and get some mods installed :rock:

[Renesco]

I bit the bullet and got Uboat missions which brought it up from 1.3 to 1.5, I figured I got so much fun out of sh3 on steam for 5 euro that paying 20 euro for sh4 + the expansion isn't such a bad deal even though it's not as good a game.

The expansion makes some nice differences, there is a hull damage % meter now for example and I think I've fixed the 'realistic reload' problem after a lot of .cfg editing and the crew has stopped wailing like banshees every time I ask them to do something.

So what mods should I get? bear in mind I wasn't too gone on GWX due to the huge amount of message spam and minefields everywhere causing insta-death when you came near england, I'm looking for mods that add to the game generally but don't add ''autistic'' levels of detail like GWX does.

[Captain J. Borne]

The real submarine crews had no clue what their percentage of unrepairable hull damage was and neither should we.


This is not entirely an accurate statement. If the crew did not have an idea on what the hull was like, they wouldn't be very good at what they do, would they? Unlike most others who post about realism facts, I've actually been on a submarine. (By the way a U-boat is a submarine, just a german sub -.-) And I will tell you that the crew DID INDEED have an idea of what the hull conditions were. Things like leaks in hull seals that were unrepairable but could keep up with the bilge, would give you an idea of some weak spots in the hull. Also, after escaping or destroying their attacker, the submariners would surface and do a thorough inspections and occasionally repairs. Now, I do NOT agree that they could give you a percentage level, but certainly a relatively accurate idea of how bad it is damaged (Ex: Chief of the boat would recommend a new maximum depth)

No offense to you whatsoever, just giving you my point of view with a tad bit of evidence.


Now the noise meter is also another realistic thing that somehow some submarine enthusiasts would say are not realistic. I think the XO or Chief could give the captain a very good idea of their current noise level.

[Renesco]

I have another question, so far I've used a Tambor, Gar and Gato and the three of them were pretty much identical, is there something I'm missing? The Gar and Tambor were the same I got a half-cut conning tower for the Gar which seemed to do nothing more than take the guard rails off the flak guns then I got given a Gato which is exactly the same except 20 metre deeper depth according to wiki

What are the rest of the submarines like?

[Sailor Steve]

This is not entirely an accurate statement. If the crew did not have an idea on what the hull was like, they wouldn't be very good at what they do, would they? Unlike most others who post about realism facts, I've actually been on a submarine. (By the way a U-boat is a submarine, just a german sub -.-) And I will tell you that the crew DID INDEED have an idea of what the hull conditions were. Things like leaks in hull seals that were unrepairable but could keep up with the bilge, would give you an idea of some weak spots in the hull. Also, after escaping or destroying their attacker, the submariners would surface and do a thorough inspections and occasionally repairs. Now, I do NOT agree that they could give you a percentage level, but certainly a relatively accurate idea of how bad it is damaged (Ex: Chief of the boat would recommend a new maximum depth)
Excellent information! Thank you. Of course I use the meter. On the other hand, h.sie came up with a mod for SH3 that converts the percentages into color-coded averages. Green=90% or better, Yellow is less, Orange is bad and Red is critical. It's less precise, which is good, but still gives you a good idea of what's going on.

Now the noise meter is also another realistic thing that somehow some submarine enthusiasts would say are not realistic. I think the XO or Chief could give the captain a very good idea of their current noise level.
I don't use it myself, simply because I know that if I'm making two knots or less and have Silent Running enabled, I'm as quiet as I can be. But that's just my opinion.

[Rockin Robbins]

This is not entirely an accurate statement. If the crew did not have an idea on what the hull was like, they wouldn't be very good at what they do, would they?....

Now the noise meter is also another realistic thing that somehow some submarine enthusiasts would say are not realistic. I think the XO or Chief could give the captain a very good idea of their current noise level.

I'll take the really erroneous one first. What you have is a stealth meter, not a noise level meter. It doesn't tell you whether you are quiet, it tells if the opposition can detect you. This would be impossible without a spy in the enemy escorts. Then he would have to concoct an undetectable way to communicate his information to the submarine. Not realistic.

In the game you know that if you are under 100 RPM you are "pretty stealthy." You know that if you present a narrow aspect to the enemy you are "pretty stealthy." That is all you should know. To claim that a gauge telling you how detectable you are by the enemy is credible is ludicrous. More like reaching for a point that isn't there.

But the hull damage percentage. There are so many places on a submarine that are not accessible at sea that it is entirely possible that the crew either doesn't know they have a problem, or that they know they have a problem but don't know how it affects depth-keeping ability. Please study U-505 history. They were bombed very effectively by a Lancaster. For the next two cruises until the boat was captured they had gremlins that they were dealing with constantly, however neither the crew nor shore turnaround crews ever diagnosed the anomaly. They didn't know what the capabilities of their sub were any more and that could have been a contributing factor to their failed surface and scuttle maneuver.

Submarine crews do not have x-ray eyes, no matter how much real experience they have. Yes, if they happen to have known damage they can sometimes make a guesstimate as to what the effect on performance is. But their knowledge is a random event with random accuracy. Our damage meter is precise, with precise effects--completely, totally and unacceptably unrealistic.

Yes, submarine and U-Boat crews are very good at what they do. They are not very good at what they cannot do, just like anyone else.

A fine example is the Thresher, which had unknown fatal defects. Are you saying they weren't such a good crew? I say they didn't have x-ray eyes but were a VERY good crew. Their lack of a hull damage meter (actually should be a pressure vessel damage meter) killed them.

The unknown is what separates a simulation from an arcade game. The stealth gauge and hull damage meter are arcade game features infesting a supposed simulation.

[Capt. Morgan]

...
8) is it normal that torpedoes take only 2 minutes to reload even with 'realistic reload speed' checked ? it takes 10 minutes in sh3 per reload which I prefer for realism

9) is the crew supposed to shout constantly as if under attack even when there's nothing nearby ? every order I give even mundane ones the crew scream 'YES SIR' as if in mortal fear...


(8) You may be playing with easier options than you think (like realistic load times being turned off)

In Career mode in Sh4, the options you set in the Main Menu are overridden by the default game options of your career, When you're in the office in career mode, click on the radio to change the options to what you want for that career.

(9) Your crew will start replying in shouts if their moral is low (as may happen if you leave them at battle stations for too long, or if they have been injured, or if your boat has been severely attacked) Even after they recover, they will keep shouting until you save and reload - that is a bug.

[Torplexed]

I have another question, so far I've used a Tambor, Gar and Gato and the three of them were pretty much identical, is there something I'm missing? The Gar and Tambor were the same I got a half-cut conning tower for the Gar which seemed to do nothing more than take the guard rails off the flak guns then I got given a Gato which is exactly the same except 20 metre deeper depth according to wiki

What are the rest of the submarines like?


The Balao class which were completed in 1943-45 were essentially Gatos with strengthened hulls. This allowed them to dive deeper, which was tactically important when evading Japanese depth charges attacks. The hull plate was increased in thickness from 0.5625" to 0.875" and the plate material was upgraded to high-tensile steel. It was calculated that this would increase the crush depth to 900 feet but other components, such as propeller shaft glands and the trim pump, could not be redesigned quickly enough to take the higher pressure and the maximum design operating depth was set to 400 feet. A Gould centrifugal pump was adopted in 1944 that could operate at 600 feet depth or more, and the refitted Balaos were thereafter able to more fully exploit their thick skins.

The story of US submarine classes in WW2 is essentially an evolutionary one, not a revolutionary one with each class having small but important improvements and refinements on the other. That's why succeeding classes seem so much alike.

[Renesco]

(8) You may be playing with easier options than you think (like realistic load times being turned off)

In Career mode in Sh4, the options you set in the Main Menu are overridden by the default game options of your career, When you're in the office in career mode, click on the radio to change the options to what you want for that career.

(9) Your crew will start replying in shouts if their moral is low (as may happen if you leave them at battle stations for too long, or if they have been injured, or if your boat has been severely attacked) Even after they recover, they will keep shouting until you save and reload - that is a bug.

That thought had entered my head about career options over riding the ones you set, so I edited all the .cfg files to have about 65% realism and included realistic reload times and it's working now, thanks for the clarification good to know.

Unrelated question: which sub has the double deck gun? and do any of the American subs have flakboat variants like the VIIc/42 unterseeflakboot ?

[Renesco]

I have another question too, my game is locked up so that the time compression I can select is 1024 because the fps drops down to 1, it's normally 70 fps out on the bridge but it's 20 fps for this patrol at 1x time compression, something is obviously stuck, It's been like this for days on this patrol, is there any way to 'unstick' whatever is causing this? reloading doesn't do it and at this rate it's going to take me about 2 hours real time to make it back to port at 1024 compression with the 'lag' I'm getting.

[Torplexed]

Unrelated question: which sub has the double deck gun? and do any of the American subs have flakboat variants like the VIIc/42 unterseeflakboot ?

The only US subs in the war designed with twin deck guns were the Narwhal/Argonaut class with twin six inch guns. Some of the mods make this sub available. However, you can only manually operate one gun, the AI will operate the other.

As the war progressed US subs did end up with a considerable armament of Bofors 40mm and Oerlikon 20mm guns on the conning tower and you can add these in the game. Historically, these were fitted topside mostly for sinking small fry like junks and sampans. Not really there for the purpose of repelling aircraft as they were with U-boats.

[Rockin Robbins]

But keep in mind that the supermajority opinion of all sub captains was that guns on a submarine were as useful as a screen door. The only use for them was plinking mines, popping sampans and as a kind of grossly oversized clothes line for laundry.

That being said, Eugene Fluckey used his to bombard a couple of shore targets. But he was crazy. He used one of his scuttling charges to blow up a train!:D

[Andrew82]

That being said, Eugene Fluckey used his to bombard a couple of shore targets. But he was crazy. He used one of his scuttling charges to blow up a train!:D


Just finished reading "Thunder Below" Amazing story, real good read! :yeah:

[Daniel Prates]

He used one of his scuttling charges to blow up a train!:D

Say what?!

[Daniel Prates]

Oh nevermind, found the story by myself:

"In one of the stranger incidents in the war, Fluckey sent a landing party ashore to set demolition charges on a coastal railway line, destroying a 16-car train.[2] (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/#cite_note-nyt-1) This was the sole landing by U.S. military forces on the Japanese (http://www.subsim.com/wiki/Japan) home islands during World War II."

So he was sort of the fleetboat version of 'Orde Wingate'?

[Captain J. Borne]

The unknown is what separates a simulation from an arcade game. The stealth gauge and hull damage meter are arcade game features infesting a supposed simulation.

Sounds to me like you're playing the wrong game/simulator. You cannot accept the parameters of the simulator, and if it were any more realistic, you would actually be on a submarine, but your on your computer....

[Rockin Robbins]

Certainly then, you have never studied the components and operation of the real World War II sonar to realize just how primitive and arcadey Silent Hunter really is.

Check out http://www.maritime.org/fleetsub/sonar/index.htm in detail and just salivate over the possibilities in a computer program that could be called a simulator without a snicker and a wink. That is a tiny portion of why Silent Hunter is a long way from what could be in a submarine simulator. In every system of the submarine I can produce similar evidence of why Silent Hunter falls far short.

This is not the simulator that "if it were any more realistic, you would actually be on a submarine." That simulator does not exist. This is only the best commercially available submarine simulator. The military certainly has better, but we can't afford that. But we should not try to pretend that this is anything more than a very loose analogy of the real thing. It falls far, far short of reality.

Want to talk targeting? I can really build a good case there! As Maxwell Smart said "Missed it by THAT much!":hmmm:

[Daniel Prates]

RR, is that an actual full manual from the 40s?

[Dread Knot]

RR, is that an actual full manual from the 40s?

It certainly is. I've seen it before.That manual and others like it were in the proverbial glove box of every USN sub built in WW2. ;)

[Rockin Robbins]

Yes, it's is THE manual for the sonar found on fleet boats. Just look at all those filters to play with (SLURP!:woot:) Check out the nuances of supersonic sonar (SLURP!:arrgh!:) Imagine if the sea were full of natural noises of shellfish, whales, surface waves, etc, instead of a dead silence (SLURP!!:up:) Just think of the process of trying to isolate the sound you are interested in from the surrounding noise in order to refine your target data! Imagine if sound reflected and refracted off thermoclines in a realistic way.

Wow, just the sonar portion of a submarine simulator has SO far to go! We are truly living in the stone age of simulation. No, maybe we're in the bronze age. I used Flight Simulator when it was written in Applesoft Basic and had less than 2 frames per second with the astounding realism of a black and white outline drawing.

[Daniel Prates]

I used Flight Simulator when it was written in Applesoft Basic and had less than 2 frames per second with the astounding realism of a black and white outline drawing.

I remember it. It was worse than Chuck Yeager's Air Combat (when I say 'worse', it is in the antique point of view. They were actually pretty good for the standards of those days).

[Daniel Prates]

Actually, I remember playing a 'spitfire' simulation on my MSX. This is how it looked:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_TijAN4NNGkA/SuszifNcmtI/AAAAAAAAoY8/PBYs1xomKz4/s400/cockpit.gif


And here, the controls:

http://www.generation-msx.nl/image.php?filename=2814-1.png&type=extra&thumb=1


So... yeah.

[Sailor Steve]

Reminds me of LucasArts' Their Finest Hour: The Battle Of Britain, which was the precursor of Secret Weapons Of The Luftwaffe.

[Daniel Prates]

Reminds me of LucasArts' Their Finest Hour: The Battle Of Britain, which was the precursor of Secret Weapons Of The Luftwaffe.

Oh yeah, SWOTL! It was actually pretty cool, the B-17 was within your choice of flyables.

[dreadedlyfe]

i will honestly say that even though it is a bit older, falcon 4.0 was and still is a great sim.

also was wondering where the bottom bounce, temp profiles, fresh water eddies etc. was at in SH4. then i had to remember that it is only a game.

[Daniel Prates]

Microprose's 1942 was also excellent - it still is in today's standards, though a bit dated. There was a full battle mode which still today has no rival. Even jane's fleet command is inferior in many respects.

[CptChacal]

Your crew will start replying in shouts if their moral is low (as may happen if you leave them at battle stations for too long, or if they have been injured, or if your boat has been severely attacked) Even after they recover, they will keep shouting until you save and reload - that is a bug.

Well that explains Mrs. Chacal. Stuck at battle stations for the last few years and replying in shouts. I don't dare to try a reload though.

About the stealth meter: it would be a great training aid to learn the ropes if there was a "trainee" skill level. You could spend some time evading destroyers, seeing the effect of your speed/depth/layer/aspect on each destroyer's awareness of your sub.