View Full Version : Fall of a taboo: Germany to deliver 270 Leopard-2A7+ to Saudi Arabia
Skybird
10-15-11, 05:19 AM
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,druck-791380,00.html
I don'T know what annoys me more - the deal itself, or the display of a small clique at the top once again trying to hide from the public and trying to deceive it while brewing its own secret deals.
The news became known in Germany several weeks ago. And although parliamentary requests from all parties have been there since early on, the government just sits still and does not explain anything, not even lies - still so, until today.
By German law, the delivery of military goods and weapons into conflict zones and to parties ignoring basic human rights, is prohibited. Does not always work well, for example many of the tanks delivered to Turkey habe been used against the Kurds, since the treaty's ruling that the Turks shall not use the delivered platforms or weapons against the Kurds was ignored by the Turks (what a surprise: of course the naive trust in that the Turks would follow that rule was intentional on the German side, to bypass the law). But at least the intention to not spill fuel into burning fires has been formulated a long time ago.
Personally I am ticking by a zero tolerance policy for ANY trading of military goods to anybody, a prohibition that should be valid for EVERY weapon-producing nation there is. Weapons are not just like any trade item, and making them a business not only can later show to backfire, but simply marks own economy to be what it really is: perverse, and inhumane. Those jobs basing on weapons exports are no argument for me.
You want weapons? Then build your own. There should be no legal world market for them. And illegal traders should be shot whereever they are found.
Why I have problems with dleivering the probbaly most advanced tank in the world to a regime like SA, I probably must not explain in detail, I think. It is not only usable against Iran. It is also a formidable platform for supressing civilian unrest.
The Saudis have tried and pressed since long to get German tanks.
Sell to dictatorships, many other countries are already doing it now ... poor signals in the long run.
Skybird
10-15-11, 05:37 AM
One thing is certain - the popison pit this world is, is surely created all by ourselves, which is the grim fact - and we do so without real need, just out of greed and envy: that is the sad thing. Because it tells something about us.
Well Greece doesn't buy anymore .....:hmmm:
(Being herself On Sale anyway .....)
.
Skybird
10-15-11, 07:22 AM
It should be mentioned that the A7+ version is specially designed for urban operations. The roof-mounted MG3 has been replaced with a remote control weapon station, armour has been added and tailored to counter RPG shots from all directions, mine protection has been increased, and there is said tio be extensive camera option for the crew to minitor the local environment. And make of it what you want: when the tank was first shown to the public in late 2010, it already was painted in desert-style camouflage. With the A7+ they also offer new types of non-kinetic but explosive ammunition, programmable.
If you want to supress urban riots, the PSO and even more so the A7+ are the tanks you want to choose. Saudi Arabia does not want them for repelling an Iranian or Iraqi ground invasion, I'm sure.
http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/8195/leopard2a701.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/849/leopard2a701.jpg/)
If you want to supress urban riots, the PSO and even more so the A7+ are the tanks you want to choose. Saudi Arabia does not want them for repelling an Iranian or Iraqi ground invasion, I'm sure.
Armored Mercedes van might be even better.
All those improvements are old news in military but its good card to play.
The big picture is more important here.
Is arming AS to make some money and as possible counterweight to Iran worth it or not.
the_tyrant
10-15-11, 08:15 AM
"No civilization other than that which is Christian, is worth seeking or possessing.
"
Otto von Bismarck
lets change it a bit:
"No civilization other than that which is immensely wealthy, is worth doing business with."
How else can the EU bailout be afforded?
According to Karl Marx, everything can be turned into a commodity in a capitalist society.
All this is doing is turning the weapons of war into a commodity.
Hakahura
10-15-11, 08:56 AM
I really don't see the problem from Germany's or a Germans point of view.
The Saudi's have money and want some Tanks. They will get them from somewhere somehow.
Germany will need that cash to bail out the Greeks by the looks of things.
Personally I would rather they brought British but there you go.
For further advice on the International Arms Buisness watch the following briefing given to the Rt Hon J. Hacker MP.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9EwpGB75kw
If this is illegal Skybird then why are the German people allowing it to happen anyways?
Skybird
10-15-11, 09:49 AM
If this is illegal Skybird then why are the German people allowing it to happen anyways?
Tja... :hmmm:
In fact some members of parliament plan or have threatened to bring it to the Federal Constitutional Court if the government does not explain the reasons soon.
Being right by law, is one thing. Getting justice by the law or a court, is something very different. In this case the devil is shidden in the detail - is Saudi Arabia a conflict hotspot or not? Is it a regime ignoring human rights, or is it not? The laws demand these two criterions. And obviously that makes the decisiuon over this case extremely prone to word-twisting and rethorics. And reality may speak different than the words.
Betonov
10-15-11, 09:52 AM
You want weapons? Then build your own. There should be no legal world market for them.
I like this idea. It would even boost our own economy because we'd employ our own workforce to arm us :hmmm:
soopaman2
10-15-11, 09:53 AM
Now my tinfoil hat horns are tinging. I see sparks. I am having a vision!:D
This is timed pretty perfectly with the threat posed by Iran with the latest plot on a Saudi ambassador. Too perfect in fact.
Maybe, just maybe, it is Europe once again letting the US off the hook for having to play "enforcer". As they did when France took lead in Libya. If war wearyness exists then the American people have it (our government loves it, it's profitable).
Oh that wasn't my tinfoil hat sparking. I was outside in a thunderstorm, nevermind me, then. I'll go back to my attic and scan the neighborhood for aliens and Ron Paul voters.
Can't say I'm surprised. It's all about the black gold and keeping our fingers in the pie, same reason Obama is sending troops to Uganda. Resources, Resources, Resources. Weapons are just another form of currency in a cash strapped Europe. No doubt these tanks will be used to prevent an Arab Spring in Saudi Arabia...and judging by what's happening in Egypt, that is probably a good thing for Europe.
Skybird
10-15-11, 10:06 AM
Can't say I'm surprised. It's all about the black gold and keeping our fingers in the pie, same reason Obama is sending troops to Uganda. Resources, Resources, Resources. Weapons are just another form of currency in a cash strapped Europe. No doubt these tanks will be used to prevent an Arab Spring in Saudi Arabia...and judging by what's happening in Egypt, that is probably a good thing for Europe.
Pragmatically, yes. Idealistically, no. Maybe we indeed should not act like we talk. But then we should learn to no longer talk like we don't act anyway. In the West, and especially in Germany, idealism has turned into a megalomania.
Pragmatically, yes. Idealistically, no. Maybe we indeed should not act like we talk. But then we should learn to no longer talk like we don't act anyway. In the West, and especially in Germany, idealism has turned into a megalomania.
We call it typical EU hypocrisy around here.:haha:
Pragmatically, yes. Idealistically, no. Maybe we indeed should not act like we talk. But then we should learn to no longer talk like we don't act anyway. In the West, and especially in Germany, idealism has turned into a megalomania.
Well, it's the old political spin "Do as I say, not as I do." It's how we've propped up countless corrupt governments over the years, because the enemy of my enemy is my friend. It's also shot us in the foot many times in the past, and it will again in the future, of that I think we can all be sure. However I think that underneath it all a lot of governmental actions can be put down to the need to get a resource of some kind, be it oil, space, money, it's all about resources...and as non-renewable resources become harder to find, there's going to be a new wave of colonial type actions in the Less Economically Developed Countries as we seek to exploit the natural resources that they are not, some of these actions will be done under the guise of co-operation, and others will be done by gun-point. It's already underway in parts of Africa. In the Middle-East it's a bit more different because they know how to exploit their advantage and they're more organised than in Africa which is fractured in so many ways in so many places, the Middle East is generally fractured in just two ways, Sunni and Shi'ite. So in the game of exploiting the Middle East...sometimes I wonder exactly WHO is being exploited...particularly when you take OPEC into consideration...who in my eyes is a greater threat to world peace than Al'Qaeda. So I guess it all boils down to having more resources than the next man...just as it always has.
Tja... :hmmm:
In fact some members of parliament plan or have threatened to bring it to the Federal Constitutional Court if the government does not explain the reasons soon.
Being right by law, is one thing. Getting justice by the law or a court, is something very different. In this case the devil is shidden in the detail - is Saudi Arabia a conflict hotspot or not? Is it a regime ignoring human rights, or is it not? The laws demand these two criterions. And obviously that makes the decisiuon over this case extremely prone to word-twisting and rethorics. And reality may speak different than the words.
Ah thanks for the explanation Sky. Seems to me a case could pretty easily be made for the Saudis ignoring human rights so good luck.
Tribesman
10-15-11, 10:38 AM
This is timed pretty perfectly with the threat posed by Iran with the latest plot on a Saudi ambassador. Too perfect in fact.
There is more to the plot than that.
Few people apart from those who read the secret small print in invisible ink between the lines on the back of the contract know that the recent announcement that Saudi might (if conditions allow and the wind is favourable and a duck flys backwards through Medina) at some point address their human rights problems by taking the huge step of allowing people of the female type to openly drive an automobile.
It is great steps forward like these which allow ethical arms transactions to take place.
Come to think of it, after a pile of arms scandals to dodgy regimes didn't Britian introduce an ethical practices system for its arms exports.....which was followed by a bribing dictators to please buy our guns scandal, which was followed by a don't you publicise the bribes or we won't buy your guns scandal, with a cross ocean fallout of hey we want to sell the dictators guns so stop your bribery Britain and let us arm the nuts instead,.....at which point Germany wants its slice of the pie too, after all 80 West German companies were supplying Saddam in his heyday of dictatoring so someone needs to fill the order books now he has gone.
During the Iran-Iraq war. With the right hand, Sweden sold weapon to Iran and aid to Iraq. With the left hand, Sweden sold aid to Iran and weapon to Iraq.
Markus
TFatseas
10-15-11, 02:20 PM
Well Greece doesn't buy anymore .....:hmmm:
(Being herself On Sale anyway .....)
.
As a side note, to respond to this...
Greece just bought 400 M1A1's from the US.
http://www.businessinsider.com/what-greece-to-buy-400-tanks-from-the-us-2011-10
Don't mind me...
Jimbuna
10-15-11, 02:40 PM
I agree with the last posts of Sky and Oberon so can't see any way this is blatantly wrong on 'both' sides.
A mighty fine tank though...just wish they were purchasing the Challenger that's produced ten mile up river from me.
Germany has to find a way to cover the cost of the Greek bailout package. Why not arms sales?:D
Jimbuna
10-15-11, 03:48 PM
I've no idea what the sales are worth but I wouldn't have thought it would make a dent on the bailout costs :hmmm:
Germany has to find a way to cover the cost of the Greek bailout package. Why not arms sales?
Germany has not to do anything.
USA approved 60bn deal with SA so why Germany should not have piece of pie when it serves their current interest by the way.
Perhaps I should have added a smiley to my joking comment.:DL
Perhaps I should have added a smiley to my joking comment.:DL
lol yeah
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnL-7x4n4d8
Platapus
10-15-11, 05:06 PM
During the Iran-Iraq war. With the right hand, Sweden sold weapon to Iran and aid to Iraq. With the left hand, Sweden sold aid to Iran and weapon to Iraq.
Markus
Capitalism at its best.
The only thing that could make that better is if somehow Sweden started the war. That would be the capitalist dream. :up:
Create the demand and then satisfy that demand.
Cha-ching!
Quark: I should have listened to my cousin Gaila, he said to me "Quark, I've got one word for you, weapons." No-one ever went broke selling weapons. But did I take his advice... No. And why not? Because I'm a people person. I like interacting with my customers. Like you and I are doing now. Talking to each other, getting to know one another...
Garak: I can see the attraction...for you...
Quark: But when you're dealing in weapons, buyers aren't interested in casual conversation. They just want their merchandise... no questions asked. It's so impersonal.
Garak: Your charms would be wasted
Quark: Exactly. So now Gaila owns his own moon, and I'm staring into the abyss...
Tribesman
10-15-11, 06:16 PM
Capitalism at its best
Just think of Zaharoff, he got his first big steps selling to all sides and creating military crisis to boost business when he was working out of Sweden.
Kongo Otto
10-16-11, 03:29 AM
Germany has already been one of the biggest Arms seller in the world, so what? I realy "love" those hypocrite discussions here in Germany.
The Saudis need or want tanks, good sell them!
In contrary to some German leftist "i need to hug and love the whole world" activists i don't have a problem with it at all !!
antikristuseke
10-16-11, 06:21 AM
the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
The following post will not add anything to the discussion really, it's just about a pet peeve of mine, so consider yourself forewarned.
I can't stand that bloody phrase, because it is simply not true. The enemy of my enemy is my enemies enemy, no more, no less. Yes, at times it is good to support your enemies enemies, but unless you have a common goals beyond that, there can be no speak of friendship.
The following post will not add anything to the discussion really, it's just about a pet peeve of mine, so consider yourself forewarned.
I can't stand that bloody phrase, because it is simply not true. The enemy of my enemy is my enemies enemy, no more, no less. Yes, at times it is good to support your enemies enemies, but unless you have a common goals beyond that, there can be no speak of friendship.
In a logical world, aye, but this is not a logical world. :03: Alliances change swiftly. One only has to look at Afghanistan over the past thirty years to realise that.
antikristuseke
10-16-11, 08:29 AM
Thats exactly what I am getting at, a temporary alliance of convenience does not a friendship make.
vBulletin® v3.8.11, Copyright ©2000-2025, vBulletin Solutions Inc.