View Full Version : Gilad Shalit: Israel and Palestinians welcome deal
Quote: People took to the streets in Jerusalem and Gaza City to celebrate the deal,Israelis and Palestinians have welcomed the announcement of a deal to free captured Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit in exchange for Palestinian prisoners.Crowds of Israelis took to the streets of Jerusalem in celebration at the news, while similar scenes were played out among Palestinians in Gaza.The deal was announced on Tuesday by the Israeli and Palestinian leaders.Under the terms, more than 1,000 Palestinians and Sgt Shalit, held since 2006, will be freed, beginning in days.Sgt Shalit, aged 19 at the time, was snatched in a cross-border raid by Hamas militants who tunnelled from Gaza into Israel.On-off negotiations for his release have taken place for several years.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-15273206
Note: 12 October 2011 Last updated at 15:14 GMT
Jimbuna
10-13-11, 11:41 AM
At 1027 for 1 I'd say someone has gotten a good deal.
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soopaman2
10-13-11, 11:44 AM
Is it a celebration of (relative) unity, or simply a celebration of percieved victories over the other?
Not being a smart arse, I am truly interested.
My personal opinion is these 2 will not get along until one or the other is eradicated. A true peace deal would entail a compromise on borders/settlements, which is a huge flash point on both sides at the moment.
Until this is resolved, the spanish soap opera drama will continue.
Of course, in my humble opinion.
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PS I misspelled "quote" using a zero instead of an "o" in the first example so it will show the tags. I know very well,but my OS does not allow this, the reality is that, Jim is my reference in this, :up:
I know very well,but my OS does not allow this, the reality is that, Jim is my reference in this, :up:
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Jimbuna
10-13-11, 11:54 AM
LOL Laughing Out Loud :DL
LOL :DL Hey...August is serious, and then we expect no representative from Banana wine company, with its subtle jokes, :O:
You can manually type in the quote tags too... :yep:
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Jimbuna
10-13-11, 12:18 PM
http://www.angelfire.com/home/lake/images/lonelymanfish.gif
Sailor Steve
10-13-11, 12:59 PM
You can manually type in the quote tags too... :yep:
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That's what I always do. :sunny:
....
Osmium Steele
10-13-11, 01:19 PM
Back OT
Is it a celebration of (relative) unity, or simply a celebration of percieved victories over the other?
There's no way Israel thinks they've won anything other than the release of their soldier.
The PA? They must be ecstatic. I see no way this could be viewed as anything other than a victory.
The PA? They must be ecstatic. I see no way this could be viewed as anything other than a victory.
Not to mention it'll encourage them to kidnap another IDF soldier.
Penguin
10-13-11, 01:53 PM
They kidnapped IDF soldiers before, and will continue to do so.
Gilad Shalit is only alive because they know that an alive hostage gets them more than a dead one.
It's a victory for Israel, because Shalit is still alive. It's definitely important for the morale, especially for draftees to show that they care for any of their soldiers.
It's a victory for Hamas, because of the exchange rate.
It's a victory for the truth, as the world can see what Hamas is: a bunch of criminals who do not recognize any rules of international law, but demand it for themselves.
Osmium Steele
10-13-11, 02:09 PM
It's a victory for Israel, because Shalit is still alive.
"Hey, gimme back my dollar!"
"OK. It'll cost you the gun you took from me, remember? When I shot up your house, killed your daughter, blew up your workplace, and destoyed your only car?"
"Here's your gun."
"Here's your dollar. Don't feel bad. It is a victory for you. I didn't burn your dollar did I?"
Some victory...
"Hey, gimme back my dollar!"
"OK. It'll cost you the gun you took from me, remember? When I shot up your house, killed your daughter, blew up your workplace, and destoyed your only car?"
"Here's your gun."
"Here's your dollar. Don't feel bad. It is a victory for you. I didn't burn your dollar did I?"
"I guess not"
*Points gun* "Now gimme back that dollar and do you have any more family I can kill?"
Penguin
10-13-11, 02:23 PM
"The pull the trigger, you won't get my dollar bill!"
*grins because he knows the Saturday night special he gave to the attacker is primed to blow him up*
Seriously, Israel showed that they care for the life of a single member of their armed forces. Don't the US Marines follow the same code of honor, to leave no one behind?
It's not they they didn't try other options before.
"The pull the trigger, you won't get my dollar bill!"
*grins because he knows the Saturday night special he gave to the attacker is primed to blow him up*
Seriously, Israel showed that they care for the life of a single member of their armed forces. Don't the US Marines follow the same code of honor, to leave no one behind?
It's not they they didn't try other options before.
You don't see how trading one hostage for thousands might motivate them to try this again?
Penguin
10-13-11, 02:41 PM
You don't see how trading one hostage for thousands might motivate them to try this again?
Maybe, but exchanges to bad conditions happened before and will happen again.
They even exchanged corpses of fallen IDF soldiers against Palestinian prisoners.
What is the alternative: "Kill him, we don't negotiate. We don't give a crap about our own!"
This message can be even more devastating in long terms, at least for Israel's own soldiers.
And as said before: Israel tried to get Shalit out by other means before, sadly with no success. So maybe after 5 years (1/5th of Shalit's life) it was time to walk a little off the beaten path.
It also hurts my stomach to know that many of the released prisoners are hardcore terrorist bastards, we should have no illusions there: those are the people Hamas cares for and wants to have out, not little Palestinians who could not pay a parking ticket.
A simple reflexion : for a French citizen, it's a crime to fight for or in the army of another country. He is in this case considered as "soldier of fortune" and condemned.
But for Gilad Shalit, who has also the French citizenship, belonging to the IDF seems to be normal to the French authorities, even to the President Sarkozy (however Chief of the French Armies), who was active for his release.
"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others."
Patriotism is not any more what it was ...
Cheers.
What is the alternative: "Kill him, we don't negotiate. We don't give a crap about our own!"
Yes if it comes to that.
This message can be even more devastating in long terms, at least for Israel's own soldiers.
A soldiers duty is to sacrifice his life for his country if necessary. I wonder how many Israeli civilians will die at the hands of those he was traded for? I certainly wouldn't want that on my conscience if I were him.
kraznyi_oktjabr
10-13-11, 03:21 PM
A soldiers duty is to sacrifice his life for his country if necessary. I wonder how many Israeli civilians will die at the hands of those he was traded for? I certainly wouldn't want that on my conscience if I were him.IDF is conscription based force. I can understand that requirement you write about from volunteers who enlisted knowing this requirement. I can't expect this without conditions from conscript soldier.
In my opinion for conscript army just letting captured personell to die is very bad thing for morale.
Penguin
10-13-11, 03:44 PM
Yes if it comes to that.
A clear line, we'll have to disagree on this.
A soldiers duty is to sacrifice his life for his country if necessary. I wonder how many Israeli civilians will die at the hands of those he was traded for? I certainly wouldn't want that on my conscience if I were him.
That remains to be seen. I first hope that the exchange runs smoothly, and I hope your prophecies won't come true - though I frankly don't have the most optimistic feeling.
A simple reflexion : for a French citizen, it's a crime to fight for or in the army of another country. He is in this case considered as "soldier of fortune" and condemned.
Dual citizenships and all its problems are a reality in today's Europe. Germany also doesn't have it by law, but in reality they exist. Most countries handle it that you have to do your service only in one country.
But for Gilad Shalit, who has also the French citizenship, belonging to the IDF seems to be normal to the French authorities, even to the President Sarkozy (however Chief of the French Armies), who was active for his release.
[I]"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others."
Too bad that Sakorzy didn't care to get out Stéphane Taponier or Hervé Ghesquièr - or are they also Jews? :doh:
Patriotism is not any more what it was ...
He fought for the country in which he was born and raised. Isn't this patriotic?
t's a victory for the truth, as the world can see what Hamas is: a bunch of criminals who do not recognize any rules of international law, but demand it for themselves.
Who don' t recognize any rules of international law :
- with sea piracy (attack of the Gaza Aid convoy : 24 volunteers killed by the Isrealian forces) ?
- with air piracy (violation of the Jordanian and Saudi airspaces, followed by an air strike of the Osirak reactor in Iraq : a French man was killed by the Isrealian planes) ?
- with land piracy (bombing of an UNO school in Jabaliya camp : 42 people killed by the Israelian artillerists) ?
About "terrorist bastards" killed by the glorious IDF in this school, please see below the 3 young ones:
http://images.imagehotel.net/ezi600dxs8.jpg (http://www.imagehotel.net/?from=ezi600dxs8.jpg)
Who were really the bastards in this case ?
soopaman2
10-13-11, 04:01 PM
In the end what is accomplished? The quran still thinks the jews as covenanat breakers, while the jews still think they are gods chosen people.
We trade you some of our terrorists for yours.
Sure call me anti semetic (which would make sense, arabs are considered semetic peoples as well.) I just wish they would stop fighting over old rocks, and the only patch in the middle east with little oil.
Or an even better name to call me, fans of Woodrow Wilson can appreciate this..Isolationist.:DL
Edit: Somehow this reeks of "America having to get involved" and I am sick of the faux colonialism.
MothBalls
10-13-11, 04:18 PM
Yes if it comes to that.
A soldiers duty is to sacrifice his life for his country if necessary. I wonder how many Israeli civilians will die at the hands of those he was traded for? I certainly wouldn't want that on my conscience if I were him.I agree. If I was in that situation and knew this deal was about to be made, I would find a way to take away the bargaining chip. Kinda like Spiers said in Band of Brothers, accept the fact that your already dead when you go into battle.
Not to sound like a hero or become a martyr, but I would consider it "in the normal line of duty" to make the sacrifice before letting hundreds of scumbags back on the street.
soopaman2
10-13-11, 04:42 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaRHUvX6MN4&feature=related
Sad it takes a hollywood movie (darn good one) to convey my middle eastern thoughts.
Movie is called Kingdom Of Heaven in case you care.
This thing is old, and predates some of our countries. When Israel was given countryhood they simply took the place of the Christians.
Richard the Lionheart laughs at todays civilized west.
Who were really the bastards in this case ?
So you're claiming these children were deliberately targeted by Israeli forces? That they said "Oh there's some children, lets get 'em!"?
I ask because the Israelis can provide many examples of their civilians, including children being deliberately targeted and murdered by Palestinian terrorists.
Dual citizenships and all its problems are a reality in today's Europe. Germany also doesn't have it by law, but in reality they exist. Most countries handle it that you have to do your service only in one country.
I was Officer in the French Army : for me, it's impossible to belong to 2 different fatherlands and to defend both. Only one flag or loyalty : on this point, the French law is clear. And Shalit is out the law.
He fought for the country in which he was born and raised. Isn't this patriotic?
If Shalit was born and raised in Israel and if he want to defend this (or his) country, he his really patriotic. But why becoming French citizen (with particular rights, but also with particular obligations) ? I have a good friend, born in Washington (when his father was in duty in the French Embassy). So he had the 2 nationalities, French and US. But when he was 18, it had to CHOOSE between both. Regular !
About patriotism, it's a devotion to his country, with always a contribution to the general interest. When Sarkozy forgets his statute of President (guarantor of the Constitution and of the Law) and his statute of Chief of the French Armies for profit of particular interest, helping somebody out of the law, but belonging to his community, there is no more patriotism concerning Sarkozy. I naturally think French patriotism.
But Sarkozy was playing his role when being active about Stéphane Taponier or Hervé Ghesquière, French journalists belonging to the Public TV and kidnapped by Taliban.
So you're claiming these children were deliberately targeted by Israeli forces? That they said "Oh there's some children, lets get 'em!"?
I ask because the Israelis can provide many examples of their civilians, including children being deliberately targeted and murdered by Palestinian terrorists.
Deliberately, I don't know. But UNO buildings are highly visible, with comprehensible and large flags (when one wants to see them).
And it's not the first time that UNO buildings are targets for IDF.
By exemple, in July 2006, an UNO observation post in South Lebanon, installed for a long time, largely visible, in a position known by the Israelian Army, was however bombed by Israelian Artillery: 4 UNO observers were killed.
Kofi Annan,Secretary-General of the UN, spoke about "a deliberated attack" ...
"Deliberated" , he said ?
Here we go again....a french officer right?
The same post that allowed free terrorist activities on its territory?
soopaman2
10-13-11, 05:47 PM
Deliberately, I don't know. But UNO buildings are highly visible, with comprehensible and large flags (when one wants to see them).
And it's not the first time that UNO buildings are targets for IDF.
By exemple, in July 2006, an UNO observation post in South Lebanon, installed for a long time, largely visible, in a position known by the Israelian Army, was however bombed by Israelian Artillery: 4 UNO observers were killed.
Kofi Annan,Secretary-General of the UN, spoke about "a deliberated attack" ...
"Deliberated" , he said ?
I'm not one to smash any one side harder than the other but uhh,Israel has been a bad boy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_resolutions_concerning_Isra el
That list is kinda long, ya know. Sorta confirms the fine gentleman I quoted. Read through them...
The sons of Abraham have blood on their hands too, and not always in personal defense.
By exemple, in July 2006, an UNO observation post in South Lebanon, installed for a long time, largely visible, in a position known by the Israelian Army, was however bombed by Israelian Artillery: 4 UNO observers were killed.
That is indeed a good example. Hezbollah deliberately used that UN position as a shield from which to launch their missiles and when Israel shot back it's vilified for it.
Do you think the UN should allow its installations to be used like that? Would the French Army allow it's installations to be used like that?
Skybird
10-13-11, 05:50 PM
The UN is no neutral player with its blue helmets in the region. Neither do they move seriously to interrupt smuggling of weapons like partially it is their mission (because doing so would make them a target for retaliation by superior firepower), nor do they especially care for communicating their observation reports of Israeli ground activities to their superior command posts in a way so that enemies of Israel cannot decypher the communication - they fetch it up, and then know what the Israelis are doing. The UN very often acts as an intelligence-gathering ally of the enemies of Israel, supporting them by effect, and when the effect is there, then the question of whether ir not it is intentional, is no longer important. I also recall that there were repeated complaints by the Israelis that the UN soldiers did not mind for Hezbollah fighter crawling opver their bunkers in order to gain immunity form that psoitonm while firing at the Israelis, since the Israelis were seriously expected by the UN to not shoot at that bunker since it were a UN post. If the UN were neutral,l it would have been their obligation to clear their facilities of Hezbollah fighters all by themselves.
In line with that is the behaviour of the maritime NATO units offshore the Lebanese coast which should disrupt and rpoevent arms smuggling via ships. They would call the Lebanese in case of a suspicion, who then woudl move in and search the boat/ship themselves. That Hezbollah is the supörior armed force in Lebanon and the Lebanese militias as well as the army are inferior to them, obviously does not cause anybody to scratch his head over this procedural pattern. The Lebanese offiocials would think twice and three times before they would accuse Hezbollah over wepaons being traded to them via shipping lines. Not that it mneans much, since most of ther arms reahcing Hezbollah are being moved in via Syria and on land anyway, but still - it illustrates the righteous schizophrenia of Western acting on these matters, in that region.
And btw: United Nations - that is a contradiction in itself.
Israel is fascinating place for many.....somehow.
It should be thoroughly studied me thinks.:yep:
Tribesman
10-13-11, 07:24 PM
That is indeed a good example. Hezbollah deliberately used that UN position as a shield from which to launch their missiles and when Israel shot back it's vilified for it.
Yes they should be vilified for it, both the terrorists and the IDF were wrong, both need to be condemned, just as it needs to be condemned when the IDF use human shields or terrorists fire anyway.
Do you think the UN should allow its installations to be used like that? Would the French Army allow it's installations to be used like that?
Would the American Army allow it? You were a military man you should know what rules of engagement mean, you should know they are supposed to be followed.
If you want those UN posts to do more than observe and report than get the governments to change their mandate.
Unless you are willing to pressure your government into giving the UN troops more power then you cannot complain that they are not doing enough.
The mere fact that the UNTSO officers(like the 4 killed that day) are not even allowed to carry weapons shows how much governments hamstring the UN
Israel is fascinating place for many.....somehow.
Yes because the crap going on there for the past few decades has seriously impacted every western nation whereas some bunch of nuts fighting over the western sahara tends to have pretty much bugger all impact elsewhere.
If the UN were neutral,l it would have been their obligation to clear their facilities of Hezbollah fighters all by themselves.
The Israelis claimed Hezballah were in the vicinity of the facility not in it(which is better than a later incident where they shelled somewhere because terrorists had been seen there several weeks ago), those officers with the UN were under one set of rules and were un armed, if it was a different set of troops with a different UN body they would be under a different mandate and could under certain circumstances shoot people.
If you want to blame anyone blame the countries on the security council and blame Israel and Lebanon as it is all of them that made the agreements and set up the terms and conditions.
I also recall that there were repeated complaints by the Israelis...
It is always important to follow up on complaints you recall being made as they often turn out to be bollox. Read any of the mandated six monthly reports of all the incidents and all the complaints along the line and see how many complaints from both sides get dropped as soon as the checking of facts begins.
Kazuaki Shimazaki II
10-14-11, 03:33 AM
It's a victory for the truth, as the world can see what Hamas is: a bunch of criminals who do not recognize any rules of international law, but demand it for themselves.
How so? You can make a case when they are using civilian shields, but kidnapping an Israeli solider? Where's the breach?
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9C21cGIry_U/Thbbz8UuZeI/AAAAAAAAAAw/Nalwl843bM8/s1600/picard-facepalm.jpg
oy vey
Ignorance is winning.:nope:
Its not even about taking sides its simply ignorance.
Kazuaki Shimazaki II
10-14-11, 05:32 AM
So enlighten me.
Tribesman
10-14-11, 07:52 AM
So enlighten me.
For a simple example in this case...
They didn't comply with the rules set down for holding a prisoner, repeated requests from the Red Cross were simply denied.
Penguin
10-14-11, 07:55 AM
Who don' t recognize any rules of international law :
- with sea piracy (attack of the Gaza Aid convoy : 24 volunteers killed by the Isrealian forces) ?
- with air piracy (violation of the Jordanian and Saudi airspaces, followed by an air strike of the Osirak reactor in Iraq : a French man was killed by the Isrealian planes) ?
- with land piracy (bombing of an UNO school in Jabaliya camp : 42 people killed by the Israelian artillerists) ?
Each point is a long discussion by itself, so I make it short:
sea piracy:
The attack on the Love boat was self-defense of a sovereign state protecting its borders and citizens. But check out the long discussion at this forum we had last year regarding this topic; very long but definitely worth reading, a civilized discussion.
air piracy:
If the informations are all true, it was necessary to stop the nuclear program - but this is my personal view.
Osirak was condemmed by the UN security council, like any resolution by them unilateral: with the vote of the USA - so much for people who claim that the US is always on Israels side.
But let's stay at the Iraq: what about the missile attacks on Israel during the second Golf War? Is this no air piracy?
land piracy:
If you take history in account, the percentage of civilians among war deaths have always been rising, alone in the last 100 years.
It's unconventional warfare in a densely populated urban environment.
The IDF does a good effort to protect civilians, one of the best efforts of any army in the world. It is also in their very own interest: we don't have 1939 anymore, information about real and fake atrocities travel around the world within seconds. Take morality aside, the IDF can't allow themselves to commit massacres, because of the public opinion.
And the Palestinians are excellent in manipulating the public opinion:
Did you ever notice that no Palestinians die by "friendly fire", and anybody is a civilian: "Oh, look, he wears regular clothes, must be a civilian!" even if he had an AK in his hands before.
About "terrorist bastards" killed by the glorious IDF in this school, please see below the 3 young ones:
Who were really the bastards in this case ?
Any dead child is one too much. But a picture says nothing, I'm afraid. Who killed them, where were they killed, etc, etc. We can make a picture pissing contest, where I can post dead Israeli children, dismembered by Palestinian bombs - bombs with the intention to harm as many civilians as possible. However this doesn't make any sense in a discussion.
The bastards are the ones who don't care for the lives of children, neither jewish nor muslim, who sacrifice their own children for their plans. It's not the fault of a child to be born in Gaza, but it's the fault of fighters who hide behind civilians to bring their lives in danger.
So the bastard card is on Hamas.
I was Officer in the French Army : for me, it's impossible to belong to 2 different fatherlands and to defend both. Only one flag or loyalty : on this point, the French law is clear. And Shalit is out the law.
If Shalit was born and raised in Israel and if he want to defend this (or his) country, he his really patriotic. But why becoming French citizen (with particular rights, but also with particular obligations) ? I have a good friend, born in Washington (when his father was in duty in the French Embassy). So he had the 2 nationalities, French and US. But when he was 18, it had to CHOOSE between both. Regular !
Your US example is the point: The USA has a different citizenship rights (Jus Soli). Broadly speaking you become a citizen when you are born on US soil. You become French citizen when your parents are French (Jus Sanguinis).
Israeli citizenship is a little more complicated, but we just put it simple and say he was born on Israeli soil and became a Israeli citizen by that. So Shalid became an Israeli because he was born there, and a French because his parents come from there.
So to which country should he be more loyal?
In my eyes you should be more loyal to the country where you live than to the country where your parents come from - this is what imo most people expect here in Europe and we would have less problems with immigrants if this would be the case.
The big BUT: Shalid lives in a state where nobody can say how bad the situation for Israel will be in 10 or 20 years. This would be the reason, why many Israelis who have a second passport decide to keep it - a reassurance to have the possibility to flee out of a war zone, history gives the Jews the right to worry about this.
Like I said before, we have basically the same citizenship laws in Germany like France - you have to decide when you become an adult. But in reality many people here still have 2 passports. Yes, it can bring people in loyalty conflicts - a recent example would be the war in the Balkan, where a high numbers of immigrants from Yugoslavia took part.
A side question: As a former French Army guy: how do you regard the Légion Étrangère? In my eyes they are a good example that loyalty to a country does not necessary mean only a passport.
About patriotism, it's a devotion to his country, with always a contribution to the general interest. When Sarkozy forgets his statute of President (guarantor of the Constitution and of the Law) and his statute of Chief of the French Armies for profit of particular interest, helping somebody out of the law, but belonging to his community, there is no more patriotism concerning Sarkozy. I naturally think French patriotism.
But Sarkozy was playing his role when being active about Stéphane Taponier or Hervé Ghesquière, French journalists belonging to the Public TV and kidnapped by Taliban.
Of course was Sarkozy playing his role as the big rescuer, where probably others in the background worked much more to get those 2 journalists free. My point is that France looks for other citizens who are captured abroad. And you can't make a distinction there, between first- and second-class citizenship there when you try to look out for your citizens. So a French with 1 passport should get the same amount of effort to get him out of the hands from kidnappers like a guy with 2 passports.
How so? You can make a case when they are using civilian shields, but kidnapping an Israeli solider? Where's the breach?
Should I start with international laws of warfare, under which Shalid's POW rights were violated? If Hamas doesn't regard his POW status, they are just a bunch of criminals, because this is as what kidnappers are regarded, worldwide.
Or should I point out which basic universal human rights of the people under Hamas' rule gets violated every day? The rights of the very same Palestinian people that you claim to support.
Skybird
10-14-11, 11:18 AM
On the Gaza raid I again ppoint out that Israel had a legal obligation by international law to not allow running the blockde. It is undisputed and recognioed even by the UN that the sea blockade is legal. International law now rules that the side declaring a naval blockade in accordance with international law must make sure that not a single exception is allowed, not a single shoip is allowed to pass thorugh. Else - ther whole legality of the blockade would immediately be cancelled and the blockade by international law would be declared as void. To stop the convoxc before it even enbtered the bloackde zone, also is perfectly legal by international law.
The commandos boarding that Turkish provocateur also acted in self defence while their very lives were threatened by an armed mob attacking them.
There have been so many incidents of Hamas or Hezbollah arranging scnes for pohotopgraphers to manipulate global sentiments, that I do not count them anymore. Also mind you that both set up their militzary ifrastrucxture inentionally within civilian infrastrucxture with the intention to maximise civilian losses in case Israel fires at these ammo dumps in school basements and commando post in Kindergartens and sniper strongholds on hosptial roofs. Hamas and Hezollah not only accept to have theior own people killed - they even arrange the killing of civilians, push up the numbers, and have been shown to actively hide within civilian groups to gain either immunity when firing, or to score in the propaganda war when Israel fires at them and kills the target along with a civilians. Also, during the Lebanon war it became known that by weapon's force they hindered villagers to leave villages, but to stay inside of them when an Israeli air attack was about to be conducted on the village in question, they hoped to create civilian casualties that way that they could sell as evidence for Israeli war crimes to the media.
The one sides provokes civilian deaths on its own side, it hides behind civilians and fires from hiding behind a civilian'S body. The other side aims and fires at fighters, warns of attacks early, so that civilians could leave the house in time (anbd the target as well, btw), and while aiming at military targets cannot avoid collateral damages. The first get called "freedom fighters" while in fact they terrorise their own population and hoipe they get killed so that they can make new pictures. The second gets called "war criminals". How absurd!
Osmium Steele
10-14-11, 11:36 AM
Seriously, Israel showed that they care for the life of a single member of their armed forces. Don't the US Marines follow the same code of honor, to leave no one behind?
Which is why the very first line of my very first post in this thread reads thusly:
There's no way Israel thinks they've won anything other than the release of their soldier.
Getting the soldier back is a victory in itself. The deal required to get him back, is a loss by any other measure.
Tribesman
10-15-11, 02:48 AM
It is undisputed and recognioed even by the UN that the sea blockade is legal.
No it isn't, it is recognised and undisputed that a sea blockade is legal, the problem comes as this particular sea blockade is combined with a land blockade.
A sea blockade on the materials which it legally bans is recognised and undisputed, a sea blockade being applied on the materials which the land blockade illegally bans is a whole different can of worms.
Legalities always come down to the actual details but some people get no further than "the Israeli naval blockade on arms is legal" and say "look look" but havn't looked and will not look.
The other side aims and fires at fighters, warns of attacks early, so that civilians could leave the house in time (anbd the target as well, btw), and while aiming at military targets cannot avoid collateral damages.
What utter bollox:doh:
Once again another prime example of "its only them".
The second gets called "war criminals". How absurd!
Detatched from reality much?
But hold on isn't this the person who moaned about American "war crimes" and somehow also says there can be no war crimes as its silly to have little laws stating what you can and cannot do in war and full on barbarism is what should be practiced:yep:
The blockade imposed by Israel is not the blockade that the blockade runners tried to unblock therefore the blockade of the blockade is illegal as another blockade of blockade.
Hamass is not really hamass IHH is humanitarian organisation.
Yeah... baaaad.. Israel. :yawn:
Why don't they let those bored virgins to Gaza.....lets have sexy time not war..:-?
Tribesman
10-15-11, 09:52 AM
The blockade imposed by Israel is not the blockade that the blockade runners tried to unblock therefore the blockade of the blockade is illegal as another blockade of blockade.
Was it too simple for ya:rotfl2:
Yeah... baaaad.. Israel.
Yeah....gooooood ....Israel
Still unable to deal with what is writtten. Don't worry MH keep on playing the poor victim in your bunker as you are just the same as those numbskulls who insist its all Israels fault.
Was it too simple for ya:rotfl2:
Yeah....gooooood ....Israel
Still unable to deal with what is writtten. Don't worry MH keep on playing the poor victim in your bunker as you are just the same as those numbskulls who insist its all Israels fault.
Yeah....yeah...lol
Yeah....yeah...lol
Dude really put him on ignore like everyone else. At least stop quoting him so the rest of us don't have to read that tripe.
Tribesman
10-15-11, 10:47 AM
Poor old August:har::har::har::har::har:
I have never seen someone go on so much about ignoring things so frequently.
At least stop quoting him so the rest of us don't have to read that tripe.
Avert your eyes young man, you don't have to read it, especially with your delicate sensibilities as it may be harmfull to your mind:yeah:
Israel has published the names of 477 Palestinian prisoners who are to be released in exchange for captured Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit.Israel's President Shimon Peres has begun the process of pardoning them, his office said.They are set to be freed on Tuesday in the first phase of the deal. A further 550 prisoners are to be released after Sgt Shalit returns home.Sgt Shalit was seized by Palestinian militants in 2006, aged 19.The deal to release him was announced last Tuesday, following years of on-off negotiations.'Complicated transfer' The list of 450 male and 27 women prisoners included in the first phase of deal was released publicly early on Sunday morning.A number of pro-Hamas websites had earlier reported some names, but this is the first official list.Israelis who object to the swap have 48 hours to appeal to Israel's highest court to intervene, before the prisoners are freed.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-15325046
Note: Update record,16 October 2011 Last updated at 11:19 GMT
http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/3337/17shalit2popup.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/683/17shalit2popup.jpg/)
Faizeh Damra, the wife of Mahmoud Damra, a Palestinian general who will be released.
Jimbuna
10-16-11, 06:25 PM
I should imagine there will be many happy homecomings soon.
CaptainHaplo
10-16-11, 06:43 PM
Yep - lets throw a party because so in so is coming home, then we can throw another one in a couple of months when he straps on a suicide belt and blows himself and a bunch of jews to smithereens!
Idiocy - real idiocy.
This deal is bad in so many ways.
During the years I wore a funny green suit (and yes - it was actually GREEN back then), we had a saying for our view on POW's.
"Bring em home, or send us to go get them."
We were willing to put ourselves on the line to go get those who were captured. Too often, the "permission" never came down the pipe. That has been the case for many generations.
Many who come back, suffering certainly of traumatic experiences.
Israel's Supreme Court is hearing four petitions against a deal to exchange more than 1,000 Palestinian prisoners for captured soldier Gilad Shalit.Families of victims of attacks by militants want a 48-hour delay on the swap, which is due to begin on Tuesday.In a rare step, the court has allowed Sgt Shalit's parents to argue in favour of the deal.They have cautioned against any delay, saying it could endanger the terms of their son's release."Nobody knows what the impact of any delay, or any change, even the smallest, in the terms would be," they wrote in a letter to the court.
Note: Update record,17 October 2011 Last updated at 14:24 GMT
Jimbuna
10-17-11, 12:23 PM
Yep - lets throw a party because so in so is coming home, then we can throw another one in a couple of months when he straps on a suicide belt and blows himself and a bunch of jews to smithereens!
Idiocy - real idiocy.
This deal is bad in so many ways.
During the years I wore a funny green suit (and yes - it was actually GREEN back then), we had a saying for our view on POW's.
"Bring em home, or send us to go get them."
We were willing to put ourselves on the line to go get those who were captured. Too often, the "permission" never came down the pipe. That has been the case for many generations.
Okay then, keep em all in prison, including the Israeli soldier and forget about any exchange deals.
Perhaps open hostilities should commence again then both sides can make an armed physical effort to get their POW's back.
How many times were you sent into Nam to get US personnel back?
Me....I'd rather look at any potential positives, on humanitarian grounds if nothing else.
Tribesman
10-17-11, 01:28 PM
How many times were you sent into Nam to get US personnel back?
Haplo is Chuck Norris?
Jimbuna
10-17-11, 02:32 PM
Haplo is Chuck Norris?
Somehow I doubt it....but it probably did sell a lot of discs.
Chuck Norris isn't the only famous Hollywood actor to pretend save Vietnam POW's.
Can you name the others? (without googling...)
Jimbuna
10-17-11, 03:00 PM
I'd rather wait for Haplo's response to my original post if that's okay :03:
Jimbuna
10-17-11, 04:38 PM
OK!
Most helpful :nope:
Most helpful :nope: Throw me to the wolves, it seems that the pleasure is, you have apparently misunderstood it ... when he is not here, I await a response, hence the "just" OK! :shifty:
Jimbuna
10-17-11, 04:57 PM
Pardon? :hmmm:
^I made only a brief explanation as to why I did not say more an "ok"!
Times up.
Sylvester Stallone, Gene Hackman and Patrick Swayze.
Israel's Supreme Court has backed a prisoner swap with Hamas, rejecting petitions against freeing more than 1,000 Palestinian prisoners in exchange for captured soldier Gilad Shalit.Families of victims of attacks by militants wanted a 48-hour delay on the swap, which is due to begin on Tuesday.The court had allowed Sgt Shalit's parents to argue in favour of the deal.They have cautioned against any delay, saying it could endanger the terms of their son's release.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-15338829
Note: Update record,17 October 2011 Last updated at 21:43 GMT
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-15339604
:sunny::sign_yeah::D:sunny:
Foxtrot
10-18-11, 07:45 AM
looks like he has been treated well by his captives
Jimbuna
10-18-11, 08:09 AM
Times up.
Sylvester Stallone, Gene Hackman and Patrick Swayze.
Would never have got Patrick Swayze.
Jimbuna
10-18-11, 08:10 AM
looks like he has been treated well by his captives
They more than likely always had it in mind to use him as a bargaining chip....wouldn't be the first time.
Pro-tip?: If your captors beat and torture you don't expect to be traded back. Escape or expect to get Pearlmans wages...
http://www.haaretz.com/polopoly_fs/1.390760!/image/2353879635.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_474/2353879635.jpg
It was worth it...
Tribesman
10-18-11, 08:56 AM
Pro-tip?: If your captors beat and torture you don't expect to be traded back. Escape or expect to get Pearlmans wages...
Tell that to McCain.
Penguin
10-18-11, 10:27 AM
Glad that he made it out in one piece! :yeah:
I also hope that he gets his outstanding wages of 5 years from the IDF :DL - to celebrate his freedom with tons of Maccabi beer and some nice chicks!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-15346563
CaptainHaplo
10-18-11, 01:01 PM
How many times were you sent into Nam to get US personnel back?
Jim, I was never in Nam. There have been other conflicts since that time. Not all were called wars. But having a brother or brothers that you know didn't come home, and should have - especially when your team was ready to go and at least give them an eff'ing chance - only to never get the word.....
Combat is never "fun", its never something you enter into lightly - if you do I sure as heck don't want you anywhere near me.... But there are times when you would embrace it because the fight is worth it.
The Israeli government just put its citizenry at risk by letting 1000+ terrorists go to save one man. Soldiers are almost always duty driven to take that risk for each other. The situation is always fluid, but sometimes wrong decisions are made that cost lives that could have been saved. I didn't like it then, and I won't like it till the day I leave this earth.
soopaman2
10-18-11, 01:13 PM
Before I respond I will say, I hate both sides. I find it silly they choose to relive the Crusades...
1100 people for one man who was kidnapped (note: kidnapped not captured) 5 miles inside his own border. 1100 dangerous people for the return of one man just manning a guard post.
Poor Mr Shalit, who was simply doing his job has now become a hotpoint for anti zionists to latch onto. He should not be victimized here. US policy is to blame. Protecting Israel from UN sanctions which cripples any credibility we have left on the world stage...
I simply see this as 1100 more bullets for Israel to shoot into Arabs (On the US dime of course, while grandma has to worry about her SSI)
We can do without both sides...seriously I wish we would become Isolationist again.
Tribesman
10-18-11, 01:49 PM
1100 people for one man who was kidnapped (note: kidnapped not captured) 5 miles inside his own border.
Leaving aside the "border" issue lets do some maths.
If a 650 meter tunnel goes 300 meters past a fence before it emerges and the watchtower, APC and tank are between the tunnels exit and the fence how far from the "border" is the furthest Shalit can have been when he was wounded and taken?
Tribesman
10-18-11, 02:02 PM
Out of this first batch being released over 10% are being sent to other countries.
Does anyone have details on which of these are being sent to what countries?
soopaman2
10-18-11, 02:17 PM
Leaving aside the "border" issue lets do some maths.
If a 650 meter tunnel goes 300 meters past a fence before it emerges and the watchtower, APC and tank are between the tunnels exit and the fence how far from the "border" is the furthest Shalit can have been when he was wounded and taken?
I read he was 5 miles away, my apologies if this wasn't the truth. I don't want to be a willing part of misconceptions. Thank you for correcting.:salute:
I am glad Mr. Shalit is home, he seems like a nice boy at least on the video I watched.:)
I just know this will cost more Israeli (and Arab) deaths in the long run, which was my gripe. On my dime (we pay for the bullets and bombs and planes)...Once again, while grandma gets her Cost of living increase suspended because we are "broke"
They are trying to spin this as a pre-requisite to a peace deal when it isn't..More garbage spineless Obammy can claim credit for next November.
Jimbuna
10-18-11, 03:25 PM
Jim, I was never in Nam. There have been other conflicts since that time. Not all were called wars. But having a brother or brothers that you know didn't come home, and should have - especially when your team was ready to go and at least give them an eff'ing chance - only to never get the word.....
Combat is never "fun", its never something you enter into lightly - if you do I sure as heck don't want you anywhere near me.... But there are times when you would embrace it because the fight is worth it.
The Israeli government just put its citizenry at risk by letting 1000+ terrorists go to save one man. Soldiers are almost always duty driven to take that risk for each other. The situation is always fluid, but sometimes wrong decisions are made that cost lives that could have been saved. I didn't like it then, and I won't like it till the day I leave this earth.
I'm not disagreeing with what you posted it was just the comment
"Bring em home, or send us to go get them."
that I was responding too.
I suspect I dislike terrorists and kidnappers as much as you do but I try to spare a small consideration for how the other side perceives things.
The price Israel have paid in this instance is possibly far too high but I doubt they had that much option.
Perhaps we should give thanks there weren't a thousand or more Israelis being held but that is another consideration and one I'd care not to go into considering my position here in our fine community.
No harm no foul Hap :sunny:
Glad that he made it out in one piece! :yeah:
I also hope that he gets his outstanding wages of 5 years from the IDF :DL - to celebrate his freedom with tons of Maccabi beer and some nice chicks!
lol
I'm not sure that even 5 yeas of captivity can make one drink maccabi beer.:haha:
Judging by the cruel interview Egyptian forced him to do he is quite OK though.
The Israeli government just put its citizenry at risk by letting 1000+ terrorists go to save one man. Soldiers are almost always duty driven to take that risk for each other. The situation is always fluid, but sometimes wrong decisions are made that cost lives that could have been saved. I didn't like it then, and I won't like it till the day I leave this earth.
That's the price Israelis are ready to pay right now for Gilad because cold reasoning thinking does not always apply.
the_tyrant
10-18-11, 03:57 PM
you know, I'm thinking
what if the Palestinians bring the man close to the boarder,
the Isrealies once he gets back, the IDF soldiers open fire and kill those on the other side?
Or, the prisoners who were sent back were slowly poisoned before they were sent away.
I don't know, I'm just thinking randomly right now
CaptainHaplo
10-18-11, 03:59 PM
you know, I'm thinking
what if the Palestinians bring the man close to the boarder,
the Isrealies once he gets back, the IDF soldiers open fire and kill those on the other side?
Or, the prisoners who were sent back were slowly poisoned before they were sent away.
I don't know, I'm just thinking randomly right now
They wouldn't - not only would there be an international uproar, it would insure that no further deals were ever cut. Its simply not in their best interest to make a deal and then not follow through properly on things like this.
Jimbuna
10-18-11, 04:04 PM
you know, I'm thinking
what if the Palestinians bring the man close to the boarder,
the Isrealies once he gets back, the IDF soldiers open fire and kill those on the other side?
Or, the prisoners who were sent back were slowly poisoned before they were sent away.
I don't know, I'm just thinking randomly right now
Then you wave goodbye to any future deals as well as the personnel who are captured.
you know, I'm thinking
what if the Palestinians bring the man close to the boarder,
the Isrealies once he gets back, the IDF soldiers open fire and kill those on the other side?
Or, the prisoners who were sent back were slowly poisoned before they were sent away.
I don't know, I'm just thinking randomly right now
I would gladly see all of them dead.
The deal is they will be if returning to terrorist activities.
I hope the government will follow this principle wherever they are.
Penguin
10-18-11, 05:43 PM
Poor Mr Shalit, who was simply doing his job has now become a hotpoint for anti zionists to latch onto.
:06:
I can't see any reason why especially his fate should promote anti-zionism, can you elaborate why you think so?
US policy is to blame. Protecting Israel from UN sanctions which cripples any credibility we have left on the world stage...
It's a common myth that the USA is always on Israel's side.
Here is a list from the UN about all Security Council resolutions regarding Palestine - most of them are against Israel: http://www.un.int/wcm/content/site/palestine/cache/offonce/pid/11886. All these 89 resolutions were adopted either with a vote for or an abstain vote from the US. Note that these are only about Palestine, other resolutions against Israel, e.g. regarding Lebanon are not listed there.
Here (http://www.regelsberger.at/privatarchiv/Israel_UN.html) is a list from an anti-zionist website, listing all resolutions against Israel between 1955 and 1992, didn't count it, but it's an arseload. Without the help of America as a permanent member of the UN Security Council, those would not have passed. The same side also lists U.S. vetoes of resolutions against Israel between 1972-2006, I counted a total of 41 for this period.
So, while the US certainly did help to block some resolutions, the US bias for Israel is more rooted in geo-strategical thinking and common denominators than in blind friendship or even a control by Israel.
Out of this first batch being released over 10% are being sent to other countries.
Does anyone have details on which of these are being sent to what countries?
I read on Spiegel Online that Turkey, Qatar and Syria want to take those people who are not permitted (by who is not said) to return to the Palestinian Territories, with Turkey taking 10.
lol
I'm not sure that even 5 yeas of captivity can make one drink maccabi beer.:haha:
Judging by the cruel interview Egyptian forced him to do he is quite OK though.
You're the first person I heard of who says Maccabee is not good. Even from German friends I heard nothing bad, and you know we are extremely critical of foreign beers. I never drank it though, so the best would be sending me a case to get my own opinion :D
For the Egyptian interview: I don't think it was deliberately cruel, with the intention to make Shalid look bad, this would not fit to the glory rescuing role that Egypt likes to paint of themselves atm.
However this is what it looks when you unleash pesky reporters onto an unprepared target. :-? I am glad that the Israeli press has a Gentleman's agreement to leave him alone for the first two weeks and gives him some time to recover.
Tribesman
10-18-11, 05:55 PM
Penguin
by who is not said
Israel has the final say in who it releases, where they have to live and if they are subject to further conditions after release.
As well as the 50 who have to go to other countries the other curious cases are those from the West Bank who now have to live in Gaza.
:06:
You're the first person I heard of who says Maccabee is not good. Even from German friends I heard nothing bad, and you know we are extremely critical of foreign beers. I never drank it though, so the best would be sending me a case to get my own opinion :D
For the Egyptian interview: I don't think it was deliberately cruel, with the intention to make Shalid look bad, this would not fit to the glory rescuing role that Egypt likes to paint of themselves atm.
However this is what it looks when you unleash pesky reporters onto an unprepared target. :-? I am glad that the Israeli press has a Gentleman's agreement to leave him alone for the first two weeks and gives him some time to recover.
The truth is i haven't drank maccabee beer for years and years.
Just remember some terrible hangovers from it and Goldstar lol.
The Egyptian interview was at least good first indication that Gilad head is on track though.
I felt like kicking this reporter in the face anyway.
According to ABC news on TV right now the freed Palestinians are already vowing to kidnap another IDF soldier.
According to ABC news on TV right now the freed Palestinians are already vowing to kidnap another IDF soldier.
That was to be expected...
They had great orgy prizing killing and murdering accomplishments.
That was to be expected...
They had great orgy prizing killing and murdering accomplishments.
Don't get me wrong MH, i'm happy that Shalit is back in the arms of his family in more or less one piece but man, you've handed your enemy a thousand knives. How do you intend to stop them from being plunged into your backs?
Don't get me wrong MH, i'm happy that Shalit is back in the arms of his family in more or less one piece but man, you've handed your enemy a thousand knives. How do you intend to stop them from being plunged into your backs?
We don't i think.... but Gilad could not be abandoned in Gaza.
Its not because it lowers army morale or any other crap.
Simply on human level.
The deal is that anyone who returns to terror will be killed.
Jimbuna
10-18-11, 06:17 PM
We don't i think.... but Gilad could not be abandoned in Gaza.
Its not because it lowers army morale or any other crap.
Simply on human level.
The deal is that anyone who returns to terror will be killed.
I suspect that will be something revisited time and time again.
the_tyrant
10-18-11, 06:25 PM
I would gladly see all of them dead.
The deal is they will be if returning to terrorist activities.
I hope the government will follow this principle wherever they are.
what if they secretly had trackers installed or something?
I'm not sure if its doable or not, but if it is I'm pretty sure the Isrealies would do it if its possible. Secretly inject trackers into the prisoners, than release them.
From a more realistic point of view, there is a good chance there is a few mossed agents in the group of prisoners or something.
what if they secretly had trackers installed or something?
I'm not sure if its doable or not, but if it is I'm pretty sure the Isrealies would do it if its possible. Secretly inject trackers into the prisoners, than release them.
From a more realistic point of view, there is a good chance there is a few mossed agents in the group of prisoners or something.
That's KGB grade idea:haha:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-15368819
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