View Full Version : Light speed barrier broken?
Skybird
09-22-11, 03:45 PM
That would mean a paradigm change in physics. Or in other words: a revolution.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-15017484
Puzzling results from Cern, home of the LHC, have confounded physicists - because it appears subatomic particles have exceeded the speed of light.
Neutrinos sent through the ground from Cern toward the Gran Sasso laboratory 732km away seemed to show up a tiny fraction of a second early.
The result - which threatens to upend a century of physics - will be put online for scrutiny by other scientists.
In the meantime, the group says it is being very cautious about its claims.
"We tried to find all possible explanations for this," said report author Antonio Ereditato of the Opera collaboration (http://operaweb.lngs.infn.it/).
"We wanted to find a mistake - trivial mistakes, more complicated mistakes, or nasty effects - and we didn't," he told BBC News.
"When you don't find anything, then you say 'Well, now I'm forced to go out and ask the community to scrutinise this.'"
mookiemookie
09-22-11, 04:11 PM
This would be one of the biggest scientific discoveries....ever, really.
Tchocky
09-22-11, 04:14 PM
It's emerged that the particles concerned were actually handicapped due to a broken rib, acquired in an impromptu late-night horse race.
TLAM Strike
09-22-11, 04:28 PM
The speed of light is the Universe's ultimate speed limit, and much of modern physics - as laid out in part by Albert Einstein in his special theory of relativity - depends on the idea that nothing can exceed it.
:damn::damn::damn:
There is nothing in physics that says you cannot exceed the speed of light.
However...
You cannot accelerate to speeds faster than the speed of light! Einstein specifically made allotments for objects already moving faster than c.
Detecting one of those is a huge leap forward but I wish the press would get their facts strait. :nope:
This is massive news and shows that no matter how far we go, there's still so much more to learn. I look forward to seeing the results of the investigation and hope that this result is indeed not anomalous.
Platapus
09-22-11, 04:31 PM
:damn::damn::damn:
There is nothing in physics that says you cannot exceed the speed of light.
Correct :up:
It is rather arrogant for anyone to claim that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light simply because we have never been able to detect anything traveling faster.
Sailor Steve
09-22-11, 04:56 PM
It's emerged that the particles concerned were actually handicapped due to a broken rib, acquired in an impromptu late-night horse race.
:rotfl2: :rock:
Glennis thanks you. :sunny:
Platapus
09-22-11, 05:00 PM
"My dream would be that another, independent experiment finds the same thing - then I would be relieved," Dr Ereditato said.
That is the sign of a good confident scientist. :yeah:
I move faster than the speed of light the morning after a good curry :woot:
Cheers
Garion
Probably lab trained kept on diet neutrinos...they can't do this in the wild.
That is the sign of a good confident scientist. :yeah:
The CERN guys are good eggs, quite modest too for the most part. :yep:
TLAM Strike
09-22-11, 05:31 PM
This would be one of the biggest scientific discoveries....ever, really.
Yes but not in the way most people think...
Most people when hearing that faster than light objects have been discovered (it happens quite a bit in fact) go:
OMG Warp Drivez!
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/4917/treknobabble553.jpg
and Phazors!!
http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/4250/startrekphaserbuddies50.jpg
While people who know about science go:
http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/4838/normalsg1304318.jpg
OMG the laws of causality or relativity are going to be destroyed! The universe is doomed!!!
(http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/fasterlight.php#id--Causality)
:rotfl2: :rock:
Glennis thanks you. :sunny:
I hear Glennis is quite glamorous in orange... :yep:
Platapus
09-22-11, 06:39 PM
I hear Glennis is quite glamorous in orange... :yep:
The Bell of the ball, perhaps?
Skybird
09-22-11, 06:45 PM
It is rather arrogant for anyone to claim that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light simply because we have never been able to detect anything traveling faster.
I think that is not the reason the claim is being supported. It is being assumed that the speed of loight is an absolute barrier because of the implication we figure in case it would be possible to accelerate an object with mass to the speed of light. An object, in this theory, that accelerates to lightspeed, gains mass, until at lightspeed it would have gained infinite mass. Which would bring our whole cosmologic model of the universe to a collapse.
And it is this model that is "at risk" here if they confirm the finding of certain neutrinos going faster than light. It would let collapse a whole rats tail of attached conclusions that today are considered as almost untouchable. Time travel in reverse, for example. The model of time-space continuums as they get thought out on basis of Einstein's model. Possibly our current understanding of gravity. And who knows what infinte number of doors it would openh on possible ideas about space travel (which does not mean that any possibilities from that insight would become reality in the forseeable number of human generations - many earthly, material, profane and human reasons speak against that).
Mookie said confirming this finding would be one of the greatest scientific discoveries ever. I tend to think in the field of scientific theory-building that is still some kind of an "understatement". Even if for the time being it would be of theoretic value only - we and our children will continue to play pool by the old rules of Newtonian physics.
What would come of this possible chnage in paradigm over let's say the next 400 years, remains to be seen. But we would need to survive as a) a technological high civilization and b) as a surviving biological species for that ammount of time. And at least the first imo is in doubt, considering the next 400 years.
So even when the finding of the present days may be revolutionary - whether they will translate into materialised technological revolutions as well in the end, is something totally different. Becasue in the end people still live by bread and water, oxygene and warmth, health and protection from the elments - not theoretic insight into complex physics. And in these "profane" necessities lies ther answer to the question whether we will survive the next half millenia or not.
Alpha Centauri must wait.
Platapus
09-22-11, 07:14 PM
An object, in this theory, that accelerates to lightspeed, gains mass
Appears to gain mass. Not gains mass. A significant difference.
It is a perception based on a point of observation. That's what old Bertie was saying. :D
Falkirion
09-22-11, 07:57 PM
So they picked up the Millenium Falcon? "She can make 0.5 past lightspeed"
Sorry, couldn't resist. Glad to see that some people aren't taken in by the steaming pile of excrement the press publish and call news
Betonov
09-23-11, 01:53 AM
Nothing in the known universe travels faster than light, with the exception of bad news. They follow their own laws of physics
kraznyi_oktjabr
09-23-11, 03:02 AM
Nothing in the known universe travels faster than light, with the exception of bad news. They follow their own laws of physics:haha:
THE_MASK
09-23-11, 04:20 AM
Like i told Hawking , you will never find the god particle if you dont take time out of the equation :nope:
Osmium Steele
09-23-11, 07:21 AM
It's emerged that the particles concerned were actually handicapped due to a broken rib, acquired in an impromptu late-night horse race.
Maybe someone rigged them up a handle? :up:
Osmium Steele
09-23-11, 07:25 AM
It is well known that neutrinos arrive just before the light from a nova/supernova.
It has always been assumed that dying stars emit the neutrinos just prior to the nova.
Perhaps not.
Interesting.
...
An object, in this theory, that accelerates to lightspeed, gains mass, until at lightspeed it would have gained infinite mass. Which would bring our whole cosmologic model of the universe to a collapse.
...
When "toying" around relativistic speeds, it is better to perceive mass as a measure of inetria rather than the amount of substance. Infinite mass means infinite inertia which means that the body offers infinite resistance to the change of its state of motion.
.
Maybe someone rigged them up a handle? :up:
Just make sure you have a supply of chewing gum!
Platapus
09-23-11, 05:01 PM
A stick of Beeman's
They will pay you back later.
Skybird
02-22-12, 08:24 PM
They say that the universe is saved. The results causing such a sensation last autumn were due to a technical malfunction, or better: a lose cable.
http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/02/22/einstein-was-right-all-along-faster-than-light-neutrino-was-product-of-error/
Should I feel disappointed or relieved now? :DL
u crank
02-22-12, 08:28 PM
I know I will sleep much better tonight. :03:
Torplexed
02-22-12, 08:30 PM
They say that the universe is saved. The results causing such a sensation last autumn were due to a technical malfunction, or better: a lose cable.
http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/02/22/einstein-was-right-all-along-faster-than-light-neutrino-was-product-of-error/
Should I feel disappointed or relieved now? :DL
I read there's to be a press conference on this tomorrow. I hope they share the "debugging" process that led them to find this, was it just a "hey, let's measure this part" or a methodical approach to verify everything?
In the meantime I guess the greater universe is safe from the depredations of the human race. :O:
NeonSamurai
02-22-12, 10:25 PM
Well I for one am sad and disappointed, it is only by refutation (something is proven wrong) that science ever advances. That refutation would have turned physics on its ear and could have been revolutionary. Ah well sooner or later relativity will fall just as every other theory before it did.
One thing you gotta always remember, science is never ever proven right. It can't be. Science is not the truth, it is just our best approximation of what may actually be out there.
magicstix
02-22-12, 10:51 PM
Well I for one am sad and disappointed, it is only by refutation (something is proven wrong) that science ever advances. That refutation would have turned physics on its ear and could have been revolutionary. Ah well sooner or later relativity will fall just as every other theory before it did.
One thing you gotta always remember, science is never ever proven right. It can't be. Science is not the truth, it is just our best approximation of what may actually be out there.
If there's one thing history has shown us, it's that nature abhors infinities. When you find one, invariably it means the math is incomplete and or wrong. The light speed barrier is probably one such infinity.
If you take the equations for pressure in air as a function of speed, they hit infinity at the speed of sound (with the added prediction that your doppler leads you to travel *backwards* in time), so it should thus be impossible to exceed the speed of sound. However, this of course isn't the case; it's just another situation where the math is wrong.
I read about it earlier today and my first thought was:
What if, after they have fixed this cable, the same result occur.
Markus
I once got the chance to be on the set used for the bridge of the Enterprise in Star Trek: The Next Geneation. A friend of mine from Paramount Studios had told me about the various joke labels the stage crew had put on the control panels of the Enterprise and I had to check out one in particular. On a panel near the station manned by Worf was a control with the warning: "186,282 miles per second: it's not just a good idea; it's the law"...
(and, yes, I did take the chance to sit in Picard's chair...)
TLAM Strike
02-23-12, 02:22 PM
I once got the chance to be on the set used for the bridge of the Enterprise in Star Trek: The Next Geneation. A friend of mine from Paramount Studios had told me about the various joke labels the stage crew had put on the control panels of the Enterprise and I had to check out one in particular. On a panel near the station manned by Worf was a control with the warning: "186,282 miles per second: it's not just a good idea; it's the law"...
I know of that one. #954
http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/5540/tngdoorsigns.png
(and, yes, I did take the chance to sit in Picard's chair...)
You real name isn't Al Lorenzo (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Al_Lorenzo) by any chance?
You real name isn't Al Lorenzo (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Al_Lorenzo) by any chance?
No, but I am impressed by your knowledge of Star Trek lore. I never really got into the details of Star Trek. But, the person who told me about the bridge jokes did get a character named after him:
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Mark_Stimson_(Starfleet)
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Mark_Stimson
He also was a close friend of Stevie Ray Vaughn and was one of the two guitarists who took Stevie's place (it took two guys to do what one SRV could play alone) when SRV left the Cobras to form Triple Threat, later known as Double Trouble...
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