Government Lunch Money

[flatsixes]

It must be a cultural thing. (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-09-20/-extravagant-spending-16-muffins-found-at-justice-conferences.html)

U.S. Justice Department agencies spent too much for food at conferences, in one case serving $16 muffins and in another dishing out beef Wellington appetizers that cost $7.32 per serving, an audit found.

“Some conferences featured costly meals, refreshments, and themed breaks that we believe were indicative of wasteful or extravagant spending,” the Justice Department’s inspector general wrote in a report released today.

[gimpy117]

and yet, nobody decides to so much bat an eye at the DoD.

[August]

This is why raising taxes is a bad idea. It's just feeding their addiction.

[Platapus]

That's why raising revenues AND cutting expenditures is a good idea.

[nikimcbee]

That's why firing the management, and yadda yadda yadda, is a good idea.:D

[August]

That's why raising revenues AND cutting expenditures is a good idea.

I disagree. They will never be serious about cutting expenditures as long as they can keep raising more revenue.

It's like handing yet another twenty to a crack addict who has repeatedly shown he can't kick the habit. Just throwing good money after bad.

[mookiemookie]

This is why raising taxes is a bad idea. It's just feeding their addiction.

Ah the old "starve the beast" argument. The beast is starving. And so are schoolkids across the country. What now?

[CaptainHaplo]

Ah the old "starve the beast" argument. The beast is starving. And so are schoolkids across the country. What now?

Not sure where you get the "schoolkids are starving" bit, but ok - how about we completely fund breakfast for schoolkids by getting rid of the National Endowment for the "Arts". While I agree art is great - kids need to be fed and know how to read and write before they are able to appreciate the artistry of a Bassano or Anguissola or that piss on a crucifix, don't you think?

The problem is realistic solutions scare government. If you make 40k a year, and you spend 60k a year, you don't have the option of going out and forcing others to "increase your revenue" just so you can keep spending on stuff that is not necessary. The government can - and the current administration - is trying to do just that.

In the real world, you adjust your spending to fit your income. The government simply needs to do the same.

[August]

Ah the old "starve the beast" argument. The beast is starving. And so are schoolkids across the country. What now?

1. The beast is not starving.

2. No matter how much more you feed the beast it will not stop school kids from starving.

3. The beast should never have been put in charge of feeding school kids in the first place.

[AVGWarhawk]

Here is how money is spent:



Apparently it's time to change the clocks at a handful of county public schools. The price? A mere $474,000, including $60,000 to get new clocks at Severna Park High School.

At less than a half-million dollars, it's not much in the grand scheme of public spending. The construction budget for next year is proposed at $204.8 million.

But the clock expense - much of which is actually part of the schools' long-range wish list and not yet a planned purchase - would be enough to buy a four-bedroom, 1,700-square-foot historic home near downtown Annapolis.

http://www.hometownannapolis.com/news/top/2011/09/18-45/Half-a-million-dollars-for-school-clocks.html

Government waste still continues. Hammers are still $600.00 and toilet seats are still $400.00. The nonsense just does not stop!

[mookiemookie]

1. The beast is not starving.


Government revenue as a percentage of GDP is at a multi-generational low. Massive unfunded tax cuts and a depression brought upon by a financial crisis tend to do that to revenues.

In the real world, you adjust your spending to fit your income. The government simply needs to do the same.

Or if you have a job that pays you $40,000 a year and it's not enough to feed your family of four, you find a higher paying job.

[August]

Government waste still continues. Hammers are still $600.00 and toilet seats are still $400.00. The nonsense just does not stop!

Exactly, and every time the tax payers complain about it they get a guilt trip laid on them like "starving school children" (sorry mookie).

Trouble is when they get their tax increase it won't do squat for starving school children. It never does.

[August]

Government revenue as a percentage of GDP is at a multi-generational low. Massive unfunded tax cuts and a depression brought upon by a financial crisis tend to do that to revenues.

Government spending is at an all time high it can't just continue increasing forever. Giving them more of our money (you call it "unfunded tax cuts") is ridiculous.

[AVGWarhawk]

Exactly, and every time the tax payers complain about it they get a guilt trip laid on them like "starving school children" (sorry mookie).

Trouble is when they get their tax increase it won't do squat for starving school children. It never does.

There are no starving school children in my county. School lunches for poverty level families is as little as 40 cent to free. Breakfast is included. School supplies are free. The kids receive clothing vouchers for stores such as JC Pennys and Sears. If these kids are not on a bus route the state pays for taxi service. I know these things because my wife teaches in a Title One school. The school is predominately poverty level kids.

[mookiemookie]

There are no starving school children in my county. School lunches for poverty level families is as little as 40 cent to free. Breakfast is included. School supplies are free. The kids receive clothing vouchers for stores such as JC Pennys and Sears. If these kids are not on a bus route the state pays for taxi service. I know these things because my wife teaches in a Title One school. The school is predominately poverty level kids.

Anecdotal evidence is not evidence.

Try these:

According to the USDA, over 16 million children lived in food insecure (low food security and very low food security) households in 2010. 20% or more of the child population in 40 states and D.C. lived in food insecure households in 2009. The District of Columbia (32.3%) and Oregon (29.2%) had the highest rates of children in households without consistent access to food.

http://feedingamerica.org/hunger-in-america/hunger-facts/child-hunger-facts.aspx

[Growler]

So which is worse, the government waste, the contractors clearly overcharging the government in the first, or the government officials that OK paying outrageous, grossly-marked-up bills? It's bad enough that the politicians are making careers out of government - why are a select group of contractors (likely originally selected for LOW bids) also profiting from government excess?

[AVGWarhawk]

Truth be told, the OK by the officials is slowing coming to a grinding halt. The government has established the GSA. The GSA keeps on file various rates for services. These rates come from contractors for the services. The contractors are committed to the rates for a year. It does not mean the contractor has to do the job if money will be lost by said contractor. The contractor may decline task. The GSA rep will move onto the next contractor offering the same services. Contracts are selected for low bids. Sometimes, however, getting the job done at a specific time the GSA can select the higher bid if the higher bidding contractor can complete the job on time. Then there is the OTO (one time only) bid that can cost big. The government folks I work with are being pushed quite a bit to stay away from OTO and use the established TMSS rates. Overall it will save money and keep the contractors from milking the government. Furthermore, the government has three years to contest a charge on any service a contractor performs.

[flatsixes]

Anecdotal evidence is not evidence.

Try these:

http://feedingamerica.org/hunger-in-america/hunger-facts/child-hunger-facts.aspx

Interesting that the Feeding America" organization you linked to repeatedly uses the phrase "hunger," whereas the USDA report (http://www.ers.usda.gov/Briefing/FoodSecurity/measurement.htm) that Feeding America relies upon for support (but, oddly, does not link to) explicitly avoids that term when accessing what it calls "food insecurity":
USDA’s measurement of food insecurity, then, provides some information about the economic and social contexts that may lead to hunger but does not assess the extent to which hunger actually ensues.

"Food insecurity," the USDA tells us, not only includes "disruptions" in the normal feeding habits, but "anxiety" about possible disruptions in normal feeding habits that have not yet occurred. Fear of hunger is not hunger itself.

Are there "hungry" people in America? Of course. There are 300 million people in this country. It would be intellectually dishonest to say that no one goes hungry. But are they "starving?" Of course not, and its equally intellectually dishonest to claim otherwise.

As citizens, we owe it to ourselves and our society to examine the facts and make appropriate decisions based upon those facts. Let's find out what works, what doesn't work, and what's been left out. Leave the tossing of rhetorical bombs to the political class.

[August]

Anecdotal evidence is not evidence.

Neither are exaggerations. "Low food security" does not come close to meaning "starving".

[mookiemookie]

"Food insecurity," the USDA tells us, not only includes "disruptions" in the normal feeding habits, but "anxiety" about possible disruptions in normal feeding habits that have not yet occurred. Fear of hunger is not hunger itself. It's close enough to hunger that there exists a problem.

Are there "hungry" people in America? Of course. There are 300 million people in this country. It would be intellectually dishonest to say that no one goes hungry. But are they "starving?" Of course not, and its equally intellectually dishonest to claim otherwise.

Neither are exaggerations. "Low food security" does not come close to meaning "starving".


Oh cripes. It was a cute play on the "starve the beast" phrase used to get a point across. Quit being so pedantic.

[JSLTIGER]

You don't really think that they're really being charged all of these prices do you? Chances are that a good chunk of the money attributed to these purchases are really amounts spent in furtherance of classified programs. Not even the Hilton charges $16.00 for a muffin on room service. Being that this is the DoJ, some of the expenditures were probably for classified wiretap costs for the FBI and or UAV purchases/flights.

To borrow from Independence Day:
[at the secret government lab]
President Thomas Whitmore (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000597/): I don't understand, where does all this come from? How do you get funding for something like this?
Julius Levinson (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0002139/): You don't actually think they spend $20,000.00 on a hammer, $30,000.00 on a toilet seat do you?

[flatsixes]

Oh cripes. It was a cute play on the "starve the beast" phrase used to get a point across. Quit being so pedantic.

"Cute" has failed to establish your point. Try erudite.

[mookiemookie]

"Cute" has failed to establish your point. Try erudite.

My point has been established just fine, thank you, as we're now discussing combating childhood hunger as a worthwhile government expense. My point has been further illustrated with citations and data.

How about you try "not condescending."

[AVGWarhawk]

Government expenditures for feeding children is always a worthwhile expense no matter how you cut it. This a email I received just yesterday. We get a call as well. Just the way our school system here does things. At any rate, combating hunger concerning children, assistance is there. It is a good cause and the state recognizes that food is one key to learning. Learning is the key to becoming a productive member of society.

Hello, parents, this is Anne Arundel County Public Schools with a message about school meals. Through the federal free and reduced price meals program, your child may be eligible to receive healthy breakfast and/or lunch at reduced prices or for free. To find out if you qualify and to apply, feel free to call the Office of Food and Nutrition Services at or visit the school system Web site. We recognize that an important component of student achievement involves healthy eating. The free and reduced price meals program helps us help students focus on learning. To find out if you qualify and to apply.

[mookiemookie]

Learning is the key to becoming a productive member of society.

Agreed. It's hard to compete on a world stage if our school systems are merely average. (http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5juGFSx9LiPaur6eO1KJAypB2ImVQ?docId=CNG.53375 04e8f65acf16c57d5cac3cfe339.1c1) National education and wealth are highly correlated, so to cut education in order to bridge budget gaps is foolish and short sighted.

[AVGWarhawk]

Agreed. It's hard to compete on a world stage if our school systems are merely average. (http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5juGFSx9LiPaur6eO1KJAypB2ImVQ?docId=CNG.53375 04e8f65acf16c57d5cac3cfe339.1c1) National education and wealth are highly correlated, so to cut education in order to bridge budget gaps is foolish and short sighted.

Furthermore, the state recognizes kids are kids. They tease and belittle each other. It can and does affect the target of the day. The state attempts to remove the stigmata being "poor". Each student looks to be on the same playing field. Vouchers for clothing and free school supplies. I find no fault in the AA County school system were I live. Sure, there are some bad eggs but the programs offered to the students are 100 fold compared to my generation. A child just needs to be inspired to go out and utilize the programs that will only help in the long run when looking to obtain a certain goal in life.

[mookiemookie]

Furthermore, the state recognizes kids are kids. They tease and belittle each other. It can and does affect the target of the day. The state attempts to remove the stigmata being "poor". Each student looks to be on the same playing field. Vouchers for clothing and free school supplies. I find no fault in the AA County school system were I live. Sure, there are some bad eggs but the programs offered to the students are 100 fold compared to my generation. A child just needs to be inspired to go out and utilize the programs that will only help in the long run when looking to obtain a certain goal in life.

Hah...not to summon the spirit of "Destiny" the teenage rights crusader troll, I'm a strong proponent of school uniforms. It places the focus on education and learning and it does take away the opportunity for kids to use style of dress as a stick to beat each other with.

Our school system isn't perfect by any stretch, and to say everything works great is just not true, but I think these programs are a step in the right direction and sorely needed.

[AVGWarhawk]

I back the uniform as well. It is easier on the wallet and easier on the kids.

:up:

Some of the local public schools are going to the uniform. Eventually I think all will.

[August]

Oh cripes. It was a cute play on the "starve the beast" phrase used to get a point across. Quit being so pedantic

Resorting to personal insults only shows that you, just like your President, have no valid arguments to make for raising taxes. Like the GoP is saying, it's just pure class warfare.

[mookiemookie]

Resorting to personal insults only shows that you, just like your President, have no valid arguments to make for raising taxes. Like the GoP is saying, it's just pure class warfare.

Ok. Guess you missed every other post I made in the thread...you know, the ones where I used facts and data to back up my statements. If you want to ignore that in a bizarre attempt to characterize what I said as a "personal insult" then that's your prerogative.

And "My president" he says. :har:

I'll break it down to it's simplest form: if spending as a %age of GDP is at its highest level in years, and revenues as a %age of GDP are at their lowest level in years, why is one or the other off the table? That makes no sense to me. It's pure myopia.

[August]

Ok. Guess you missed every other post I made in the thread...you know, the ones where I used facts and data to back up my statements. If you want to ignore that in a bizarre attempt to characterize what I said as a "personal insult" then that's your prerogative.

So now you're back to calling your starving school children statement "facts and data"? Perhaps i'm just too pedantic to understand you. :roll:

And "My president" he says. :har:

Yeah your president. You're the one who is supporting his policies every day on this forum. You can hardly claim to be an independent. I had high hopes for the guy but he's just turned out to be another typical elitist Democrat thinking he knows what's best for me. He ain't been right yet.

I'll break it down to it's simplest form: if spending as a %age of GDP is at its highest level in years, and revenues as a %age of GDP are at their lowest level in years, why is one or the other off the table? That makes no sense to me. It's pure myopia.

It doesn't make sense to you because you see peoples wealth as something that you have a right to tap into as much as you want.

To heck with GDP, it doesn't matter how much the American people make, or more accurately claim the American people make according to some arcane set of easily manipulated "indicators". It does not give the Federal government license to spend more and more without limit.
Government spending is the highest EVER, not "in years" or "multi-generations", EVER. You seem to quite fine with that. I am not.

[August]

Government expenditures for feeding children is always a worthwhile expense no matter how you cut it. This a email I received just yesterday. We get a call as well. Just the way our school system here does things. At any rate, combating hunger concerning children, assistance is there. It is a good cause and the state recognizes that food is one key to learning. Learning is the key to becoming a productive member of society.

I agree that it is worthwhile but those programs are best run at a local or state level where the families who are affected by it have the most control over how the money is spent.

The Feds piss away billions and we have little to show for it.

[mookiemookie]

Yeah your president. You're the one who is supporting his policies every day on this forum.

Yeah, you know, just the other day I was writing a glowing approval of his time in office.... (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1751186&postcount=58) :har:

[August]

Yeah whatever. As long as it doesn't involve giving the Federal government more money. :salute: