P51 crashes at air show

[Armistead]

Terrible crash, not sure how many died, but they say 40 are critical.

Includes video of crash.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/16/reno-air-show-plane-crash_n_967137.html?icid=maing-grid10%7Chtmlws-sb-bb%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk3%7C96356

[Torplexed]

Horrific. Begining to wonder if it isn't time to retire the remaining flyable WW2 warbirds to the museum. :-?

[Thomen]

Horrific. Begining to wonder if it isn't time to retire the remaining flyable WW2 warbirds to the museum. :-?


Maybe, but the pilot was, from what I hear, 80 years old. That may have been one of the problems also.

It is a tragedy, either way. =(

[magic452]

My son called me to say he was alive, I didn't know what he was talking about. Turns out he was working the air races as a sound engineer and the P51 crashed about 30 feet right in front of him. I hadn't heard about it yet, only happened 45 minutes before.

He's a retired EMT and was helping with the injured and said there were dead but he didn't know how many. At last count 54 had been admitted to three different hospitals and 2 are confirmed dead as well as the pilot.

The plane exploded into tiny fragments and only the engine was at all recognizable and it was in several pieces. It hit at race speed 400+ MPH almost vertical. No fire as they only carry enough fuel for the race and it was almost over. It missed the box seats by a few yards and all the injuries were from flying debris. Fortunately the plane was moving away from the stands or it would have been much worse. The planes fly very fast and very low 100+ feet, a bad situation if you have problems.

The pilot Jimmy Leeward,was only 74 and in excellent health and a veteran of the races, well known here. You have to under go a very strong FAA physical in order to race. The whole event is under FAA supervision.

There have been 19 pilots that have died since the races started in the 1960's but this is the first time spectators have been injured or killed.

Magic

[gimpy117]

old airframe? lets face it, the P-51's are old. I wouldn't be surprised if some failure caused the erratic flight path described

[HunterICX]

My son called me to say he was alive, I didn't know what he was talking about. Turns out he was working the air races as a sound engineer and the P51 crashed about 30 feet right in front of him.

30 feet :o (aprox 10m)

That's really too close for comfort, glad to hear he's okay
real shame that some wheren't as fortunate.

HunterICX

[Tribesman]

old airframe?

Or the new engine?

[Jimbuna]

Three dead, more than 50 injured....I'm suprised they are still allowed to fly so close to the spectators, we stopped that here in the UK some time ago.

Pilot was 74 years old....how tragic :nope:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=140555527

[Oberon]

Such a terrible shame, some reports indicate that the pilot managed to pull the nose up a bit and correct her course to avoid hitting the 'bleacher' section. Jimmy Leeward certainly seems the type of pilot to try his best to avoid casualties, he was certainly not wet behind the ears.

I think rather than retire the P-51s to the museums they should just be taken out of the racing circuit. Still have them at airshows, but the kind of stresses that the airframe must be under during racing must surely take its toll on the old girl. Don't get me wrong, I love to hear the P-51 in full barrel, particularly that wailing noise from the open gun ports, something special that is, and I am fully confident in the P-51s ability to race, but when a racehorse gets to a certain age, well...it's time to put them out to pasture or to easier races.

Irregardless, this is a terrible incident, and my condolences to all involved.

[danny60]

The latest figures are 3 dead, 57 injured :cry:

[Armistead]

I don't think it has anything to do with the P51 itself or it's frame being too old, but physical condition or not, 74 is too old to be racing planes.

[stoppro]

I met the pilot a couple of time at his home in ocala. he had that 'never gets old' flyboy look that i see on many older pilots. the flying community up there is called ,leeward ranches, it was named for him when he built it. there is a runway behind almost every home. pretty cool place .he died going what he loved to do except i am sure he didin't intend to kill anyone, sad

[CaptainHaplo]

I'd rather have a 74 year old experienced pilot than a 25 year old wet behind the ears one.

Many people better be thankful he was experienced. Word from the scene is that it was a mechanical issue of some sort, and that the aircraft behavior indicates the pilot did all he could to avoid an even bigger tragedy. If it had been an inexperienced pilot behind the stick, its likely many more would be dead today.

I am under 40, but I have a serious issue with saying that age alone should disqualify a person from doing something. There are people at 65 who should not even be allowed to drive, and there are people at 80 who do just fine. Generalities are not a basis for restricting the rights of people.

[Biggles]

Any plane can crash or malfunction. No matter the age or type, the RAF Red Tails didn't fly WWII era planes now did they?

In any case, a horrific accident. I read now on a Swedish newspaper site that the pilot apparently managed to alter his course in the last seconds from a crowded spectator stand, so the deathtoll could've been much higher. In any case, a tragic event.

[Hottentot]

Saw it from our newspaper too and immediately thought there would be a thread about it in here. Scary. Reminds you just how death can come anywhere and without a warning. To think that those people had left their homes just to spend a day and have a good time.

On lighter note, our media shines again. It's somewhat difficult to translate into English, but they say first in Finnish, "the plane's model was" and then copy straight from an English source: "World War II P-51 Mustang". I wouldn't complain even if they mixed a P-51 and P-47, but is it too much to ask the journalist to actually think for a second before pressing the "submit article" button?

[Jimbuna]

I'd rather have a 74 year old experienced pilot than a 25 year old wet behind the ears one.

Many people better be thankful he was experienced. Word from the scene is that it was a mechanical issue of some sort, and that the aircraft behavior indicates the pilot did all he could to avoid an even bigger tragedy. If it had been an inexperienced pilot behind the stick, its likely many more would be dead today.

I am under 40, but I have a serious issue with saying that age alone should disqualify a person from doing something. There are people at 65 who should not even be allowed to drive, and there are people at 80 who do just fine. Generalities are not a basis for restricting the rights of people.

I'm not sure why your last paragraph reads like it does because I see no evidence of any contributor on this thread either generalising or saying that age alone should disqualify a person from doing something.

[Oberon]

I'm not sure why your last paragraph reads like it does because I see no evidence of any contributor on this thread either generalising or saying that age alone should disqualify a person from doing something.


I don't think it has anything to do with the P51 itself or it's frame being too old, but physical condition or not, 74 is too old to be racing planes. I think this is what was being referred to, Jim.

[Highbury]

I just caught the last bit of some TV coverage on it. Definitely mechanical failure. They had a picture of a part separating from the plane. Possibly one of the elevators, I just turned my head to see it for a second and it was gone.

Death toll was also reported to be at 9 now.

[Jimbuna]

I think this is what was being referred to, Jim.

Possibly

[Biggles]

Swedish newsite DN.se now claims there's been another accident in West Virginia today! Anyone got any American sources on that one? What I can gather, noone on the ground was hurt, but the fate of the pilot is feared to be grimmer.

[Sailor Steve]

Thanks for the heads-up, Biggles. It's on my homepage news service but I managed to miss it.
http://apnews.myway.com//article/20110917/D9PQHBJ83.html

[Torplexed]

Thanks for the heads-up, Biggles. It's on my homepage news service but I managed to miss it.
http://apnews.myway.com//article/20110917/D9PQHBJ83.html

A T-28 Trojan. A postwar trainer from the 1950s. Oddly, the AP refers to it as a WWII-era plane.

[magic452]

I just caught the last bit of some TV coverage on it. Definitely mechanical failure. They had a picture of a part separating from the plane. Possibly one of the elevators, I just turned my head to see it for a second and it was gone.

Death toll was also reported to be at 9 now.

My son spent all day out there and got to talk to some of the pilots and that is what they all guess happened, some sort of elevator failure.
Also according to him the the pilot did indeed get some control over the plane and maneuvered it away from the stands.

Magic

[Sledgehammer427]

I'm sad because of the loss of life, but I'm so appreciative that he managed to get the plane away from the stands...It'd be like Le Mans 1955 all over again, but worse.
The worst accident in motor racing history happened at the 1955 running of the 24 hours of Le Mans. A collision between a Mercedes and an Austin-Healy sent the Mercedes' engine, hood and steering assembly in to the crowd. Nearly 80 spectators died instantly. Also, the Magnesium bodywork of the Mercedes...if you ever took chemistry, you know what happens.

my heart goes out to the victims.
an unfortunate incident, but, as I said before, it could have been much, much worse.

[Oberon]

Yeah, that Le Mans incident was...nasty.

It's clear that Jimmy Leeward is a hero. At that speed and altitude if an elevator came off...well...it's difficult. Particularly inverted which it looks like he was at the time.

http://www.ocala.com/article/20110917/ARTICLES/110919706?p=all&tc=pgall

[kranz]

It's clear that Jimmy Leeward is a hero. At that speed and altitude if an elevator came off...well...it's difficult. Particularly inverted which it looks like he was at the time.

I hope you would be able to repeat this to the families of the 8 victims and 70 injured.
I'm far from blaming him, especially after it was said that a mechanical failure was the main reason. The closer to spectators the better, however, "At that speed and altitude" it is the pilot who takes final responsibility not only for his life but the spectators' as well. We had similar crashes in Poland, including the famous Su-27 one, when the pilot "allegedly" maneuvered away from the crowd, and fortunately hit some unattended spot. He was also called a "hero".
Tbh I'm tired of hearing about "heroes" who first do everything to get as close as possible to the boundary between life and death and when something goes wrong and they kill less than "x" number of ppl, they are called heroes.

[CaptainHaplo]

Jim,

My comment was regarding the pilot being 74 and thus having no business flying as was quoted. If I came off a bit strong, I apologize. Just a slippery slope there.

Now - back to the original topic.

The aircraft had undergone some serious modification for the race. Now if this was a trim tab or elevator, then its in an unmodified area - the mods were on the wings and ailerons from what I understand. However, the increased speed from aero improvements may have contributed. Have to see what the investigators come up with.

However, regardless of the cause, it appears the pilot did all he could, saved lives in the process, and bought the farm doing what he loved. Thoughts and prayers go out to the families of those killed and injured. May the lost find shelter in the hand of the Creator.

[Oberon]

I hope you would be able to repeat this to the families of the 8 victims and 70 injured.
I'm far from blaming him, especially after it was said that a mechanical failure was the main reason. The closer to spectators the better, however, "At that speed and altitude" it is the pilot who takes final responsibility not only for his life but the spectators' as well. We had similar crashes in Poland, including the famous Su-27 one, when the pilot "allegedly" maneuvered away from the crowd, and fortunately hit some unattended spot. He was also called a "hero".
Tbh I'm tired of hearing about "heroes" who first do everything to get as close as possible to the boundary between life and death and when something goes wrong and they kill less than "x" number of ppl, they are called heroes.

Personally I think having air races so close to the crowds is asking for trouble, but as someone else said on this thread this is the first crash in the history of air racing which has had fatalities in the crowd, so that in itself must say something.
The pilot does indeed take responsibility for his life and the life of the spectators too, however the question is when the moment comes does that still ring true? Less than ten seconds from incident to the ground. Now, I do not know if he did indeed move the plane away from the spectator benches or whether it was the result of the Split-S the plane was in, it could be quite possible that Mr Leeward was unconscious at the time as a result of the Gs produced by the violent maneuver.
It is, also, quite possible that the modifications undertaken to 'Galloping Ghost' contributed to the crash, it is still far too early to tell, and perhaps I was a little early to claim Mr Leeward as a hero, however if indeed he did deliberately pull the stick to try and get the P-51 into an area where it would kill him and only him then I do believe that he is a hero and I hope that the families of those killed and injured would understand because without people who do 'push the limits' there would be no air races and there would be no people watching air races, likewise events such as Le Mans, Formula One, and any other sporting event where there have been spectating casualties. Aircraft fall out of the sky, it is a fact that you cannot remove the risk factor of flying but at the same time people want to go and see the aircraft flying and see and hear the spectacle...it is extremely regrettable but it does happen and there was no deliberate intent to injure or kill on the behalf of the pilots there, just as there is not intent to injure or kill on the behalf of Formula One drivers, Speedboat racers or Motorcycle racers, but it has happened and will happen, the only problem with air races is that you cannot put a fence in front of the aircraft like you can with speedboats and motorcars and cycles, certainly, as I have already said, it should be considered that the race itself takes place further away from the crowd...but that is something for the organizers to decide on.
More people could have been killed, yes, and it is of no comfort to those that have died, no, but at the end of the day there is a risk in both participants and spectators in air races and this was pretty much inevitable. It was luck and pilot skill (perhaps) that the aircraft wasn't fully loaded with fuel and didn't crash straight into the spectators because that would have killed many many many more, dozens even.

So, if...and I state if, Mr Leeward did pull the aircraft away from the crowd as many have speculated then yes, I would say that to those who have lost family members in this terrible accident, and I think that they would agree and understand.

[Jimbuna]

Jim,

My comment was regarding the pilot being 74 and thus having no business flying as was quoted. If I came off a bit strong, I apologize. Just a slippery slope there.



No problem...I just thought it strange at the time.

[Tribesman]

I hope you would be able to repeat this to the families of the 8 victims and 70 injured.

Is there any reason whatsoever why the statement would be unacceptable?

[Highbury]

It's clear that Jimmy Leeward is a hero. At that speed and altitude if an elevator came off...well...it's difficult. Particularly inverted which it looks like he was at the time.

Actually, after the elevator detached the plane became inverted and the transition is estimated to have reached approx 10 Gs. The pilot would have been unconscious as photos of the incident suggest (Example. (http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/09/19/article-2038749-0DEFBBBC00000578-710_634x819.jpg) That is taken shortly before impact and the pilot is clearly out of view due to being passed out.)

It is a sad incident, but it looks again like the media's urge to brand people as "Hero"s has been premature.

[Oberon]

Actually, after the elevator detached the plane became inverted and the transition is estimated to have reached approx 10 Gs. The pilot would have been unconscious as photos of the incident suggest (Example. (http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/09/19/article-2038749-0DEFBBBC00000578-710_634x819.jpg) That is taken shortly before impact and the pilot is clearly out of view due to being passed out.)

It is a sad incident, but it looks again like the media's urge to brand people as "Hero"s has been premature.

Aaah, I did wonder, which is why I did state in my last post that it was possible that he was unconscious at the time, I recall someone somewhere mentioning of another race aircraft that had a detached elevator but fortunately pitched upwards rather than over and he awoke from his 10G induced unconscious state at a high altitude and near stalling. Thankfully he was able to put her down again safely.

[magic452]

Here are some photos my son took.

About 700 feet
http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt296/Magic452/DSC_0561-1.jpg


About 400 feet
http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt296/Magic452/DSC_0562-1.jpg

About 200 feet
http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt296/Magic452/DSC_0563-1.jpg

Didn't get the impact as he was ducking for cover.

Magic

Added some more I though you might like.
If you've never seen this type of racing
http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt296/Magic452/DSC_0528-1.jpg

The p51 hit about 30 feet to the left of this shot.
Hit the first row of box seats.
http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt296/Magic452/DSC_0526-1.jpg

Thought you U boat fans might like this one.
http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt296/Magic452/DSC_0998.jpg

And this one

http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt296/Magic452/DSC_0959.jpg

[RickC Sniper]

Good Lord! That is pretty much like a bullet going past your ear close.

[CCIP]

That's a terrifying couple of shots considering what happened next, thanks for sharing magic! Glad your son is okay.

That FW-190 was supposed to make its debut in North America at my local airshow this summer, but sadly didn't make it. Good to see it's back with a vengeance though!

[White Owl]

Suppose I'll add my own two cents here, since I've been hanging around subsim recently.

In real life I'm a certificated Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic, and also a Commercial Pilot. I know as much about airplanes as some around here know about submarines. I've been to the Reno air races twice, and greatly enjoyed the show.

I've seen the photos and the videos. This crash happened because of the mechanical failure of one small part. The pilot had no influence over the outcome, good or bad. Leeward was neither to blame, nor was he a hero. The aircraft age and modifications to the airframe may or may not have contributed to the crash; honestly it'll be impossible to say without studying the elevator trim tab they recovered and examining all the maintenance records.

As an airplane increases in speed it has a tendency to pitch upward. The downward force on the horizontal stabilizer increases faster than the upward force on the wings, so the plane wants to point the tail at the ground and the nose at the sky. To counteract this effect and maintain level flight as airspeed changes the pilot changes the pitch of the elevator, exactly like the tail planes on a sub. The pilot can constantly push forward on the control stick, but that gets tiring very quickly, and it's difficult to maintain exactly the correct pressure over time. So elevators (and other flight controls) commonly are built with trim tabs to maintain that constant push. Trim tabs are small movable control surfaces built into the trailing edge of a larger control surface. The pilot manually sets an elevator trim control in the cockpit, and the tab rotates up or down just a few degrees. If the tab rotates up into the airstream, it exerts a downward force on the entire elevator, so the elevator rotates downward and the airplane pitches down. If the tab rotates down, it exerts an upward force (or actually a decreased downward force) on the elevator, the elevator rotates upward and the airplane pitches up.

The faster the airplane goes, the more sensitive all the controls become. Especially the elevator and elevator trim. Before I started flying I had no idea how very sensitive an airplane is to small changes in the pitch controls. In a little underpowered training plane putting along at just 100 mph or less, if you turn the elevator trim wheel the wrong direction for a second, it can take a noticeable amount of muscle to hold the nose at the correct angle. By contrast, aileron and rudder controls are nowhere even close to as sensitive as elevator.

So this P-51 was flying at some speed just under 500 mph, most likely. Faster than P-51s were generally flown in combat. That's up there in the speed range where WWII pilots knew they had to be extra careful with pitching up, because if you pull back just a little bit too hard the Mustang will very quickly build up enough G-forces to knock a guy out. It'll happen faster than a healthy 25 year old fighter pilot can react.

At that speed, the airplane had a very strong tendency to pitch up, and the trim tab was cranked pretty far up to push the elevator down and keep the plane level. Then one end of that trim tab broke loose. I've seen the photo of the trim tab still attached at one end, with the part trailing aft of the elevator. I'm convinced the "gurgling noise" many people report hearing from this plane's engine wasn't the engine at all; it was that trim tab flapping wildly back and forth in the high speed airstream. It flapped around for a second or so, then finally broke the rest of the way off. As it flapped and broke off, that trim tab was no longer pushing down on the elevator, so the elevator rotated up. The airplane instantly pitched up, hard.

I'll leave it to the aerospace engineering geeks to crunch their numbers and estimate how many Gs Leeward was under at that first instant. It's obvious to me that he was instantly incapacitated, because the engine sounded like it was at full throttle all the way to the ground. If he'd had any control at all in that cockpit, throttling back would've been the immediate, reflexive thing to do. How many Gs would it take to force the tailwheel down against the hydraulic pressure holding it up in the retracted position? I don't know. A lot. The one photo that gives us a clear view at the cockpit before impact shows no visible pilot at all... I don't think he was just slumped down unconscious. If that were the case, I'd expect the seat straps to hold him up. I think that seat broke and collapsed under the G-load.

Leeward never rolled the plane to avoid the larger crowd. He was no longer a factor the instant that trim tab tore loose, and it would've happened exactly the same way if a young olympic tri-athlete champion were flying.

Moving the audience farther away from the racing planes may or may not prevent a recurrence. It was just random dumb luck the plane aimed where it did. If the plane had been in a slightly different attitude or slightly different speed it would've gone in a different direction. It's possible it could have traveled miles before crashing.

So why did the trim tab break in the first place? That's the interesting question to me.

I'll still go back to the races whenever I get a chance.

Magic, I'm glad your son isn't hurt.

[TLAM Strike]

@White Owl: Fantastic And Informative Post. :yeah:

Here are some photos my son took.

Magic I wonder if you should forward those photos to the NTSB or something. :hmmm:

Glad you son was unhurt.

[magic452]

@White Owl: Fantastic And Informative Post. :yeah:



Magic I wonder if you should forward those photos to the NTSB or something. :hmmm:

Glad you son was unhurt.

I don't know if he has done that already or not, forgot to ask.

@White Owl
What you got there is pretty much what the stories are around the airport.

Many eye witnesses said they observed the plane change direction at about 200 feet, where the third picture was taken but that may be in error. To me it seems you are correct in that the pilot was unconscious. Excellent post by the way. :yeah:

My son did say he thought that he was a dead man at one point.
After he took the third pic he hit the deck and worked his way under the grandstands he was standing in front of.

Magic

Edit This may be the end of the Reno Air Races.
With 11 dead and so many injured someone is bound to sue and that will open the flood gates.
Insurance cost just might be so high that they can't put on the races anymore. Maybe an air show but not racing. I sure hope not.

[Sledgehammer427]

Edit This may be the end of the Reno Air Races.
With 11 dead and so many injured someone is bound to sue and that will open the flood gates.
Insurance cost just might be so high that they can't put on the races anymore. Maybe an air show but not racing. I sure hope not.

+1 on the hope not.
I don't think there is any grounds to sue the air races themselves. I may be wrong but it's not the air races fault that the plane crashed.

White Owl, with a little flight experience myself (<200hrs), and a lot of studying in how airplanes...well, work, I agree with your statement 100%

[Jimbuna]

@magic452

Great to learn your son was unharmed.

@White Owl

Great post.

[Oberon]

White Owl that was an excellent, informative and very well written post and I certainly cannot disagree with any of the points raised therein.

magic452, that must have been a day your son will never forget, I'm glad that he managed to escape from it unhurt and he took some very stunning shots indeed, I love the Fw-190 in particular. :yep:

[Buddahaid]

What I find interesting in the photos is it appears all the controls are in neutral positions and appear intact. Amazing photos!