Israel's Submarine Fleet

[AVGWarhawk]

At one point, the submarine rose to the surface to take a break. The sub’s commander, then-Lt. Colonel Oded, looked through the periscope and saw a calm, blue sea. However, one crew member soon informed him that he just saw the New York towers collapsing on television. Oded’s first reaction was laughter: What kind of movie are you watching there? How could the Twin Towers collapse? Yet soon after, the official announcement arrived from Israel.

The training session ended abruptly. Orders started to pour in from Navy headquarters. The submarine went into high alert and sank into the water for a lengthy period of several weeks. “In such case,” Oded says, “nobody knows where you are except for your crew and your direct commanders. Even your family doesn’t know. They don’t know what you’re doing or when you’ll be back. They know nothing.”





http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4120185,00.html

[CCIP]

A thoroughly professional and ready 'silent service', no less than one would expect from Israel.

It's interesting to say the least to see small diesel boats used as a regional mini-version of a ballistic nuke - more or less the same ultimate role. I don't think their real mission is much of a secret.

[Tchocky]

And the next day, Commander Benjamin Adnam was nowhere to be found..

[Oberon]

And the next day, Commander Benjamin Adnam was nowhere to be found..

And neither was the Thomas Jefferson...

:har::har::har:

[TLAM Strike]

And neither was the Thomas Jefferson...

:har::har::har:

or HMS Unseen.

:O:

[JSLTIGER]

Can't remember the last time that I read that book.

[Penguin]

Upon graduation, he was appointed as commander of a missile boat that specializes in anti-submarine warfare (the Navy ensures that future sub commanders serve on such boats first, as there is no better way to learn how they behave when confronting a submarine.)


This makes pretty much sense.
How do other navies handle that? An ASW education is certainly standard, but do others also require their commanders to learn to hunt subs on an ASW vessel before they are allowed to command a sub?


Imagine this for our hobby:
Silent Hunter system requirements:
demonstrable experience of at least 200 hours of Destroyer Command

[Jimbuna]

A thoroughly professional and ready 'silent service', no less than one would expect from Israel.

It's interesting to say the least to see small diesel boats used as a regional mini-version of a ballistic nuke - more or less the same ultimate role. I don't think their real mission is much of a secret.

Agreed....but is their second strike capability taken into account by those who would oppose them?

I'm not sure.

[nikimcbee]

I wonder how well they stack up in a sub v sub battle?

[TLAM Strike]

I wonder how well they stack up in a sub v sub battle?
Against their potential foes?

Easily got those Egyptian Romeos beat. Those things just rot at the pier. Got Iran's three Kilos beat, they lack digital sonar among other things basic to a modern submarine. Against Turkey it might be intresting, Turkey has lots of submarines but they are mostly older boats (Type 209s from the 1970s and 1980's) Libya's one remaining sub is not much of a threat anymore. I guess that leaves us with Algeria who has two somewhat nice Project 636 Kilo boats and Pakistan who has some modern-ish Agosta 90B submarines; those are the closest to Israel's submarines in terms of capabilities.

[nikimcbee]

Against their potential foes?

Easily got those Egyptian Romeos beat. Those things just rot at the pier. Got Iran's three Kilos beat, they lack digital sonar among other things basic to a modern submarine. Against Turkey it might be intresting, Turkey has lots of submarines but they are mostly older boats (Type 209s from the 1970s and 1980's) Libya's one remaining sub is not much of a threat anymore. I guess that leaves us with Algeria who has two somewhat nice Project 636 Kilo boats and Pakistan who has some modern-ish Agosta 90B submarines; those are the closest to Israel's submarines in terms of capabilities.

:hmmm:, I'm placing my bets on training. I taking a wild guess that Israel's naval training is waaaaaaay better than all of the surrounding Arab nations combined. They are not a naval power with a naval tradition, but neither are their enemies. I think it would be a toss-up vs Pah-k-i-stan, but everybody else, I think Israel would ass-whoop. I'd think all of their enemies would try to bomb the subs in port, oh, wait, they need to get by the IAF. Nevermind.

[TLAM Strike]

:hmmm:, I'm placing my bets on training. I taking a wild guess that Israel's naval training is waaaaaaay better than all of the surrounding Arab nations combined. They are not a naval power with a naval tradition, but neither are their enemies. I think it would be a toss-up vs Pah-k-i-stan, but everybody else, I think Israel would ass-whoop.
Yea the Israelis got great training from the US, UK, Germany etc. Egypt has some US and Chinese training. Not sure about Algeria, that country's military tends to be on the secretive nature, but they are most likely Russian trained. Libya has got nothing left for trained submariners, some of them were Mercs and castoffs from the other Arab states anyways. I don't think any Iranian sub drivers in commission are US trained they all stayed over here when the Revolution took place so their guys are Russian and maybe Pakistani trained. Pakistan is the wild card, they have a really good naval academy, with influences of Brittan, the US and China, plus combat experience in subs. If we bring Turkey in to this as a potential threat I would say in training these guys are as good as the Israelis with NATO standards of training.

I'd think all of their enemies would try to bomb the subs in port, oh, wait, they need to get by the IAF. Nevermind. About the only way I would see that succeeding is by a raid of Iranian Fencers and Tomcats via Syria or a SLCM attack from the Red Sea by an Iranian Kilo (Iran released photos of a enlarged C-800 series missile that might be a LAM version) or a Pakistani Agosta 90B. Against Egypt or Turkey it would be a war of attrition in the air. Best bet would be to have some Palestinians sail a couple Boston Whaler in to the harbor and lay some mines, the Israelis got nothing for Mine Countermeasures ships.

[Krauter]

What type of submarines do the Israelis operate? From reading the article it would appear their makeshift boomers are modified type 209s, but what about that hunter killers and attack boats?

Also, what kind of ASW assets do they have on the surface? Mostly maritime patrol aircraft or do they have dedicated patrol craft.

[Raptor1]

What type of submarines do the Israelis operate? From reading the article it would appear their makeshift boomers are modified type 209s, but what about that hunter killers and attack boats?

Also, what kind of ASW assets do they have on the surface? Mostly maritime patrol aircraft or do they have dedicated patrol craft.

The only type of operational submarine is the Dolphin-class, a heavily modified Type 209. They're not 'makeshift boomers', but they can apparently launch nuclear-armed cruise missiles through their oversized torpedo tubes.

I believe the Sa'ar 5-class corvettes are capable of performing ASW pretty well, but I don't think the Israeli Navy has any dedicated ASW ships.

[TLAM Strike]

Also, what kind of ASW assets do they have on the surface? Mostly maritime patrol aircraft or do they have dedicated patrol craft.
The Saar 5 corvettes have a towed array and Mk32 SVTTs plus a AS-565 helicopter, but the AS-565 isn't a ASW centric heli like the Seahawk; its more of a torpedo or light ASM bus and SAR helicopter. Don't think it has dipping sonar, MAD or sonobuoys; if it does its an optional fit.

The IAF operates grand total of 3 IAI Sea Scan MPA that can carry a torpedo but again their focus is ASuW.

[TLAM Strike]

The only type of operational submarine is the Dolphin-class, a heavily modified Type 209. They're not 'makeshift boomers', but they can apparently launch nuclear-armed cruise missiles through their oversized torpedo tubes. Those tubes are also useful for deploying SDVs. ;)

[Krauter]

Aah ok, from the way I read the article I thought that the Israelies ran some modified 209's as "boomers" (ie, hide only) as well as having their own hunter-killers.

And yes I know they're not boomers in the sense they have vertical launch tubes, but they are the Israelis equivalent due to their Nuclear capable cruise missiles

[Catfish]

The Dolphins are being built in Germany.
Since Germany would never sell wepons of mass destruction or devices like 65 cm tubes in subs to use them, we delivered the boats to Israel with removable 53 cm cartridges (in the 65 cm tubes :D).

Food for new conspiracy theories, what did the IDF Sub do there at 9/11 :O:. You know it's always either the butler, the gardener, or Mossad.

[TLAM Strike]

Food for new conspiracy theories, what did the IDF Sub do there at 9/11 :O:. You know it's always either the butler, the gardener, or Mossad.
Good luck sneaking them past Rota 1st. :03: