View Full Version : 9/11 anniversary: Attacks made US stronger, Obama says
The United States is stronger 10 years on from the 9/11 attacks and al-Qaeda is "on the path to defeat", President Barack Obama has said.
"As a resilient nation, we will carry on," he told Americans on the eve of the anniversary of the attacks.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-14867146
Note: 10 September 2011 Last updated at 16:48 GMT
Torplexed
09-10-11, 12:58 PM
Sure wish the economy was as strong as it appeared to be ten years ago. :nope:
Madox58
09-10-11, 02:03 PM
All I've seen is a stripping of rights and the general publics concern with those in uniform.
Congress has raped us and allowed the economy to go in the trash bin.
HomeLand Security is nothing more then the SS reinvented.
And the BS has just continued to grow with no real fixes in sight for the common person.
:nope:
If any place needs a Civil War right now?
It's the U.S.A.!
Jimbuna
09-10-11, 02:29 PM
I'm a little suprised at what you've posted there Steve because whilst readily admitting not to knowing much of your home front (countrywise) situation and having a plausable knowledge of how your economic situation is deteriorating (like so many other western countries, the UK included)....I honestly thought the 9/11 outrage had galvanised your country in terms of security and protection of the homeland :hmmm:
I'm most likely wrong but that was the impression I was under.
Madox58
09-10-11, 02:43 PM
:hmmm:
Did you mean Jeff?
Jimbuna
09-10-11, 02:48 PM
:hmmm:
Did you mean Jeff?
Err....yes :oops::DL
:damn:
Madox58
09-10-11, 03:45 PM
9/11 changed the whole world in a very bad way.
:nope:
Granted it was what the Terroist wanted?
It provoked the fear that allows stripping of rights!
The U.S. of A. was a Country based on certain freedoms.
With the creation of HomeLand Security?
I see a new SS with all implied powers.
I do not want a Government that insures safty at the cost of personnal freedoms!
I understand that I may die if I ride my Triumph without a lid and have an accident.
I also understand that some loon on a plane may be a bomber and take that risk willingly when I fly.
What I take severe offense to is this so called 'for your safety' crap!
The SS now watches ALL our E-mails and much more!!
I for one do not want to live in a World that settles for this kind of intrusion into simple life.
So to salute the New SS?
Planned Bombing
Car Bomb
New York
Jehad
I expect a visit from my SS friends soon!
:har:
Jimbuna
09-10-11, 05:38 PM
Knock knock!!
:)
mookiemookie
09-10-11, 06:14 PM
9/11 changed the whole world in a very bad way.
:nope:
Granted it was what the Terroist wanted?
It provoked the fear that allows stripping of rights!
The U.S. of A. was a Country based on certain freedoms.
With the creation of HomeLand Security?
I see a new SS with all implied powers.
I do not want a Government that insures safty at the cost of personnal freedoms!
I understand that I may die if I ride my Triumph without a lid and have an accident.
I also understand that some loon on a plane may be a bomber and take that risk willingly when I fly.
What I take severe offense to is this so called 'for your safety' crap!
The SS now watches ALL our E-mails and much more!!
I for one do not want to live in a World that settles for this kind of intrusion into simple life.
So to salute the New SS?
Planned Bombing
Car Bomb
New York
Jehad
I expect a visit from my SS friends soon!
:har:
I agree 100%. So much has been done in the name of "safety"...the power grabs and surveillance... :nope: The Patriot Act is a joke.
So how has the Patriot Act fared as a defense against terrorism? The act has been used in 1,618 drug cases and only 15 terrorism cases. http://nymag.com/news/9-11/10th-anniversary/patriot-act/
Knock knock!!
:)
Who's there? :hmmm:
TLAM Strike
09-10-11, 07:56 PM
HomeLand Security is nothing more then the SS reinvented.
Now thats not fair...
The SS was an effective organization!
:O:
Now thats not fair...
The SS was an effective organization!
:O:
:haha:
Well played :03:
Still remember the day, but i was quite young so i didnt think about it that much, was only later i understood the signifigance.
Jimbuna
09-11-11, 05:57 AM
Who's there? :hmmm:
Sorry but I've forgotten now...that was last night :oops:
Right, that was yesterday ... and now all have "forgotten" it away,:sunny:
Jimbuna
09-11-11, 07:16 AM
Who's there? :hmmm:
I remember, I remember :DL
Knock Knock!
Who’s there?
Cash!
Cash who?
No thanks, but I’d like some peanuts!
Schöneboom
09-11-11, 10:57 AM
As a clever Roman put it almost 2000 years ago, "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" (Who watches the watchmen?)
nikimcbee
09-11-11, 11:07 AM
Is it just me, or is the media "wallowing" in 9/11 sorrow? Every news channel , education channel, has run non-stop 9/11 shows:shifty:. How much of this stuff can you actually watch?
Is it just me, or is the media "wallowing" in 9/11 sorrow?
Yes, definitely! As one australian comedian brilliantly stated in twitter:
There's a line between acknowledging / honouring the past, & fetishising the morbid. Reckon news media will stay the right side today?
Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it.
I appreciate what my country has done to try and better protect itself. I appreciate my countrys soldiers who have sacrificed so much in the past for my country. It is not a perfect system...none ever is but I would not want to live in any other place on earth.
God Bless Amercia :salute: Love it or Leave it...
We Will Not Forget !!!
mookiemookie
09-11-11, 01:00 PM
Is it just me, or is the media "wallowing" in 9/11 sorrow? Every news channel , education channel, has run non-stop 9/11 shows:shifty:. How much of this stuff can you actually watch?
Agreed. I don't need to re-live that day and obsess over it. All this is tacky and tasteless.
Sailor Steve
09-11-11, 01:11 PM
:hmmm:
Did you mean Jeff?
Uh-oh. He's onto us.
Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it.
I appreciate what my country has done to try and better protect itself. I appreciate my countrys soldiers who have sacrificed so much in the past for my country. It is not a perfect system...none ever is but I would not want to live in any other place on earth.
God Bless Amercia :salute: Love it or Leave it...
We Will Not Forget !!!
Well, as the comedian I quoted said: "There's a line between acknowledging / honouring the past, & fetishising the morbid. Reckon news media will stay the right side today?"
Currently it's just 'fetishing the morbid'.
I could say a thing or two about USA's 'self-protecting' methods but I won't as this is not the right thread for it.
Sailor Steve
09-11-11, 01:31 PM
How much of this stuff can you actually watch?
Umm, none? Families of the fallen can memorialize, but I'm just hanging out.
Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it.
Georges Santayana. As has been pointed out, there is a big difference between remembering the past, and learning the lesson, and just morbidly dwelling on it.
Love it or Leave it...
People like to put down the hippies, but in the '60s, when "America - love it or leave it!" was the catch-phrase of the day, they came up with one that was equally valid: "America - change it or lose it!"
Love it or Leave it...
So, working to change the parts that don't work is not an option? Someone might want to explain that to the Tea Party. (And the Democrats, and the Republicans, and every other political party)
We Will Not Forget !!!
Because every year, you will be pounded over the head with the same message!
Jimbuna
09-11-11, 03:50 PM
Uh-oh. He's onto us.
Most definitely :oops:
Madox58
09-11-11, 05:37 PM
Most definitely :oops:
THINKING people are out to get you is a sign of being crazy.
KNOWING you two are involved?
:haha:
That just proves I'm not as crazy as I think I am!
:doh:
I'm not sure that came out right.
:88)
People like to put down the hippies, but in the '60s, when "America - love it or leave it!" was the catch-phrase of the day, they came up with one that was equally valid: "America - change it or lose it!"
The problem with catch phrases is they are always too vague.
For instance love what about America? That we enjoy a higher standard of living and personal liberty that anywhere else? If a person hates that then I hope the door does hit them on the butts on their way out.
On the other side of the coin "change it" means many things to different people. The hippies themselves couldn't agree on what to change. Personally I am kind of leery about changing a society that has served us pretty well for the past two centuries. We stand to loose an awful lot if one of these ill conceived social experiments go wrong.
That we enjoy a higher standard of living and personal liberty that anywhere else?
Than anywhere else? Hardly.
Than anywhere else? Hardly.
Yeah - I picked up on that one too :D, I'd like to think that he merely meant it as a rough example rather than literally.
(Unless he has somehow managed to live in all the developed nations accross the world for several years each)
danlisa
09-12-11, 07:00 AM
I have to agree with Privateer to some extent.
I find it quite laughable that in the wake of 9/11 the world went to war to 'protect our freedom' when in actuality our own countries have done more to erode our freedom than some foreign lands occupants.
Unfortunately it's never going to go back to the way it was. Now they have the 'power' over us, they will be reluctant to relinquish it.
You know what I find most horrific
The 9/11 commission was given $15 million (and they had to beg for most of it). while cost of the Lewinsky investigation was $30 million.
Priorities..... :dead:
mookiemookie
09-12-11, 10:26 AM
What I found ghoulish and inappropriate were all the 9/11 themed commercials during the football games yesterday. Using a tragedy in an attempt to advertise your company as patriotic and benevolent is just plain exploitative. State Farm, Southwest Airlines and Budweiser were the ones I can remember offhand.
Pure crass marketing and a slap in the face to the people who lost loved ones that day.
What I found ghoulish and inappropriate were all the 9/11 themed commercials during the football games yesterday. Using a tragedy in an attempt to advertise your company as patriotic and benevolent is just plain exploitative. State Farm, Southwest Airlines and Budweiser were the ones I can remember offhand.
Pure crass marketing and a slap in the face to the people who lost loved ones that day.
Well this kind of activity is not new nowadays. Monetary gain is the most important thing, only after that comes everything else. Basically, the more you profit, the more you are ready to bend your principles. (wish I'd remember the name of the guy who wrote about this. IIRC he was french and lived in 19th century.)
Than anywhere else? Hardly.
Believe what you want but i'd match our standard of living over the past two hundred years with that of any other countries.
Believe what you want but i'd match our standard of living over the past two hundred years with that of any other countries.
Now you match your standard of living with any other country? Yet a moment ago you claimed that you have a higher standard of living than any other country.
Sailor Steve
09-12-11, 12:43 PM
The problem with catch phrases is they are always too vague.
For instance love what about America? That we enjoy a higher standard of living and personal liberty that anywhere else? If a person hates that then I hope the door does hit them on the butts on their way out.
On the other side of the coin "change it" means many things to different people. The hippies themselves couldn't agree on what to change. Personally I am kind of leery about changing a society that has served us pretty well for the past two centuries. We stand to loose an awful lot if one of these ill conceived social experiments go wrong.
At that time we took "Love it or leave it" to mean not to oppose government policies, specifically concerning the Vietnam war. "Change it or lose it" was also directed toward those policies. I've seen something similar in recent times. When Clinton was president I saw bumper stickers here in Utah that said "I love my country, but I don't trust the government". When the Patriot Act was passed many of those same conservatives told us we must support the government at all costs.
The hippies weren't the only ones who can't agree on what to change, or what not to change.
Sailor Steve
09-12-11, 12:44 PM
Now you match your standard of living with any other country? Yet a moment ago you claimed that you have a higher standard of living than any other country.
Translation misunderstanding. In this case "match" equals "compare", and his meaning is the same.
Tribesman
09-12-11, 12:55 PM
Translation misunderstanding. In this case "match" equals "compare", and his meaning is the same.
So all thats needed is any one of the dozens of examples from any one of the hundreds of tables that do the comparisons and simply pick any of the numerous countries that top the US.
Translation misunderstanding. In this case "match" equals "compare", and his meaning is the same.
I see. Thank you for clarification.
Anyway, debating over this matter is quite futile. August seems to look the world through red-white-blue glasses so unless he doesn't take them off, this is a fruitless discussion.
nikimcbee
09-12-11, 01:12 PM
Okay, so I watched one show, that's it. I don't see how people could watch this stuff over and over.
So all thats needed is any one of the dozens of examples from any one of the hundreds of tables that do the comparisons and simply pick any of the numerous countries that top the US.
The problem is that there are many different ways to compare countries. Which ones are valid?
Tribesman
09-12-11, 02:06 PM
The problem is that there are many different ways to compare countries. Which ones are valid?
Thats the point, it was a ridiculous claim August made in the first place.
Making it into a "two hundred year" claim makes it even more ridiculous as that brings in a whole range of negatives that many other countries didn't have.
Its funny that it was a tangent about vague and meaningless phrases, then he came up with one of his own and even tried to defend it:yep:
Sailor Steve
09-12-11, 02:40 PM
You really are bitter, aren't you?
You really are bitter, aren't you?
Sure hit the nail on the head with that one Steve. :yep:
Tchocky
09-12-11, 03:01 PM
Personally I am kind of leery about changing a society that has served us pretty well for the past two centuries. We stand to loose an awful lot if one of these ill conceived social experiments go wrong.
I'd say there have been plenty of social experiments in the last 200 years of American history ;-)
Tribesman
09-12-11, 03:27 PM
You really are bitter, aren't you?
Who August?
Don't be so cruel to him, he can't help it, its the glasses.
I'd say there have been plenty of social experiments in the last 200 years of American history
Just like in any other country.
I'd say there have been plenty of social experiments in the last 200 years of American history ;-)
Yes some have worked out better than others.
Some people have a lot of critics about USA while living in a country which sets a example on how you should not run things.
But again its USA to blame.
Some people have a lot of critics about USA while living in a country which sets a example on how you should not run things.
But again its USA to blame.
Frankly, there is no point in this statement.
Madox58
09-12-11, 05:03 PM
And I would assume that's why the USA has such a major problem with illegal immigration?
Last I recall if you cross borders in places like, say, Iran?
You go to prison or are just given a lead present.
Roughly between the eyes.
I don't live next door to Iran so what they do? I don't care.
But if they want to be nasty to some Stupid American that crosses thier boarder?
Let's look at the math.
3 American Idiots versis God only knows how many Iraninan Idiots!
I'm not sure if it's legal?
But I'm thinking Ovens here.
Tribesman
09-12-11, 05:23 PM
Frankly, there is no point in this statement.
He has rather missed the point hasn't he.
It isn't the country it is the claim, its the same as if a Frenchman said it with his red white and blue glasses or a British or Norwegian, Thai, Russian, Serb, Dutch, Croat, Cuban or any other nation that red white and blue fits, its the same whatever the national colours are.
Frankly, there is no point in this statement.
Just because you don't get the point doesn't mean there isn't one.
Tribesman
09-12-11, 05:48 PM
Just because you don't get the point doesn't mean there isn't one.
Yet you didn't get the point at all.
Just because you don't get the point doesn't mean there isn't one.
Don't you see that you just sank yourself with this comment? When you couldn't come up with anything else, you started to question and mock my intelligence. Really?
What MH wrote was clearly a patriotic statement. Thus, it was pointless. One cannot see the true state of things when one's vision and thoughts are filtered and obscured by patriotism and ignorance.
I find it quite laughable that in the wake of 9/11 the world went to war to 'protect our freedom' when in actuality our own countries have done more to erode our freedom than some foreign lands occupants.
A few centuries ago, someone from this continent (?!) said that any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.
At least they know they head toward their fall.
Don't you see that you just sank yourself with this comment? When you couldn't come up with anything else, you started to question and mock my intelligence. Really?
What MH wrote was clearly a patriotic statement. Thus, it was pointless. One cannot see the true state of things when one's vision and thoughts are filtered and obscured by patriotism and ignorance.
Mock your intelligence? Hardly. But you do seem overly sensitive on the subject. Do people often mock your intelligence?
mookiemookie
09-12-11, 06:34 PM
Mock your intelligence? Hardly. But you do seem overly sensitive on the subject. Do people often mock your intelligence?
Don't do that. You're better than that.
A few centuries ago, someone from this continent (?!) said that any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.
At least they know they head toward their fall.
Is that your wishful thinking or analysis of situation?
What MH wrote was clearly a patriotic statement
Good one...actually i get paid to write pro American. :har:
As far as freedom and way of life its a matter of taste for me.
I'm not American or EU.
Don't do that. You're better than that.
I guess you're right Mother Mookie! :DL
A few centuries ago, someone from this continent (?!) said that any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.
At least they know they head toward their fall.
It was Benjamin Frankin and the actual quote is:
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
An earlier variation of his that always intrigued me is:
"Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power"
Platapus
09-12-11, 09:33 PM
I always liked this quote:
These are dangerous times. When we are afraid, we want to be protected, and since we can not protect ourselves against such horrors as mass murder by bombers, we are tempted to run to the government***8230; a government that is always willing to trade the promise of protection for our freedom.
This leaves, as always, the question: How much freedom are we willing to relinquish for such a bald promise?
Gerry Spence
mookiemookie
09-12-11, 09:47 PM
I guess you're right Mother Mookie! :DL
:salute:
Sailor Steve
09-12-11, 10:29 PM
It was Benjamin Frankin
Most likely, but unverified.
Mock your intelligence? Hardly. But you do seem overly sensitive on the subject. Do people often mock your intelligence?
August, please. Don't sink yourself any deeper.
I don't think I'm the one who is overly sensitive on the subject. Debating over this doesn't make me overly sensitive. You act like germans acted during the nazi regime, blindly following the fatherland, refusing to criticize it. I'm not saying USA is all bad but it's clear that USA has started her downfall by self-appointing herself to a god. Acting like a sheriff of the world.
I only would like to see people questoning things and using their own brains. Not taking everything the authorities crank out as ultimate truths.
Good one...actually i get paid to write pro American. :har:
Well there you go! ;)
Tribesman
09-13-11, 03:17 AM
Be fair Crecy, August does criticise the US and doesn't follow blindly, however he does have very frequent bouts of the red white and blue syndrome where he defends without reason and follows myopicly.
I'm not saying USA is all bad but it's clear that USA has started her downfall by self-appointing herself to a god. Acting like a sheriff of the world.
That doesn't make much sense.
I only would like to see people questoning things and using their own brains. Not taking everything the authorities crank out as ultimate truths.
They do, its just that on some angles silly patriotism comes in and blurs their vision, or in the case of MH gives them full on tunnel vision.
I don't think I'm the one who is overly sensitive on the subject. Debating over this doesn't make me overly sensitive. You act like germans acted during the nazi regime, blindly following the fatherland, refusing to criticize it. I'm not saying USA is all bad but it's clear that USA has started her downfall by self-appointing herself to a god. Acting like a sheriff of the world.
My 2 cents....
The impression I get of post 9/11 America is quite a scary one, what your saying is to some extent correct (in regards to that blind mentality), but I,d say the Nazi germany comparisson is not true of America in 2011, though they appeared to come dangerously close in 2001/2002 for obvious reasons.
Even after a trumatic event like 9/11 where peoples better judgment gets clouded with anger and fear. America is still a pretty diverse nation, while it still has its 'blind followers' it also has no shortage of people who, (after they calmed down abit) were still capable of independent and objective thinking :), the ones who can still question authority when called upon.
Now as long as those people (whoever they are) are allowed to exist and speak out without fear of reprisals - then America will continue to be a 'free country'.
The day that every American is must fall in line with their government and main stream Media (or else!) ...is the day that they basically turn in to North Korea.
A mass majoriy of 'blind followers' is bad, extreamely BAD for any countries health and indeed the human race in general.
I only would like to see more people questoning things and using their own brains. Not taking everything the authorities crank out as ultimate truths.
Yeah true - but on a world wide scale, not just in the U.S (and see the extra word I inserted into your quote)
Be fair Crecy, August does criticise the US and doesn't follow blindly, however he does have very frequent bouts of the red white and blue syndrome where he defends without reason and follows myopicly.
That doesn't make much sense.
They do, its just that on some angles silly patriotism comes in and blurs their vision, or in the case of MH gives them full on tunnel vision.
You are so predictive mr objective lol
Keep enjoing your self...
Hottentot
09-13-11, 03:58 AM
America is still a pretty diverse nation, while it still has its 'blind followers' it also has no shortage of people who, (after they calmed down abit) were still capable of independent and objective thinking :), the ones who can still question authority when called upon.
Which creates a semi-related question:
Can a person by his/her own reasoning become a supporter of what authorities say? Because it seems that whenever people are being called to think for themselves, it also includes the implication of disagreeing with the authorities. I for one agree with quite many things that my country's authorities do and say, while disagreeing with others. Am I a brainwashed sheep?
Which creates a semi-related question:
Can a person by his/her own reasoning become a supporter of what authorities say? Because it seems that whenever people are being called to think for themselves, it also includes the implication of disagreeing with the authorities. I for one agree with quite many things that my country's authorities do and say, while disagreeing with others. Am I a brainwashed sheep?
That finely some sound of reason.
Which creates a semi-related question:
Can a person by his/her own reasoning become a supporter of what authorities say? Because it seems that whenever people are being called to think for themselves, it also includes the implication of disagreeing with the authorities. I for one agree with quite many things that my country's authorities do and say, while disagreeing with others. Am I a brainwashed sheep?
No it doesn't!
Of course there is a big difference if you actually approached it in a reasonably intelligent manner beforehand, then decided that you agree with it. But many people dont do that :)
They just follow popular opinion and are instantly willing to belive anything the government or media tells them at face value - which is increadibly trusting when you consider the frequencey they have been proven to lie and spin.
Bringing you truth and accuracy is WAY, WAY down their list of priorities. Why? because they aren't required to, too many are willing to swallow up any old crap they come out with. So if its in their interest to spin it in favor of their political alignment, shareholders or corperate ties or whatever, they will quite happily do so, they dont care about morality.
The same can be true of those who follow unpopular opinion for aguments sake, lets say you joined the '9/11 truth movment' based on one persons argument or some crappy video of building 7, if you failed to actually reserch their allegations properly first, that would make you sheep too!
Doesn't matter who tells us what, its the way our though process responds to it (if at all).
Everything deserves a fair anaylasis no matter how plausible or implausible it sounds at first, thankfully most everyday things only require a few seconds or less, but politics and major events require a hell of a lot more than that, since they are rarely black and white!
Trouble is, people often make an automatic assumption based on what and who we would PREFER to believe.
Honestly? eveyone could do a bit better than that if they bothered to try.
Hottentot
09-13-11, 05:09 AM
But many people dont do that :)
They just follow popular opinion and are instantly willing to belive anything the government or media tells them at face value - which is increadibly trusting when you consider how often they have been proven to lie and spin.
True enough. But as you pointed out, some people also base their thinking on the idea that if the majority thinks X, then X must be wrong. These people are usually the first and loudest in making their individualism known, which I find mostly disgusting egotripping.
Especially the most major media outlets, bringing you truth and accuracy is WAY, WAY down their list of priorities. Why? because they aren't required to simply because too many are willing to swallow up any old crap they come out with.
Media also has to sell. I haven't often seen media spouting outright lies, but "colored" truths are fairly common. Still doesn't in my opinion justify the "don't believe anything any media ever says" attitude that some people have. You just have to understand that it's text written by people for people.
Trouble is, people are often make an automatic assumption based on what they would PREFER to beilive. Honestly? everyone could do a bit better than that if they bothered to try.
And here we find nothing but agreement.
What world needs is more objective thinking.
True enough. But as you pointed out, some people also base their thinking on the idea that if the majority thinks X, then X must be wrong. These people are usually the first and loudest in making their individualism known, which I find mostly disgusting egotripping.
Yup, those people end up as (if not more) narrow minded as the people they are against. same thought process - just at the opposite end of the spectrum.
Media also has to sell. I haven't often seen media spouting outright lies, but "colored" truths are fairly common. Still doesn't in my opinion justify the "don't believe anything any media ever says" attitude that some people have. You just have to understand that it's text written by people for people..
Never beliving anything the media say, is just as stupid as beliving everything they say. Questioning on the hand is quite different... And that means questioning where appropriate, not just for questionings sake. If a small part of us thinks something isnt quite right, it shouldn't be ignored.
Im saying, at least take it with pinch of salt and maybe flick between more than just 1 or 2 sources for the important stuff.
In my book, spinning is already half way to lying. When you spin infomation, you are not telling as it is - simple as that.
Maybe if we meet two opposing spins in the middle we might actually have soming accurate? :) (that is a joke of course)
Tribesman
09-13-11, 05:35 AM
Of course there is a big difference if you actually approached it in a reasonably intelligent manner beforehand, then decided that you agree with it. But many people dont do that
Its double edged, you have people who do that and will approach issues in an intelligent manner, but they can suddenly and without reason become bleating sheep based on nothing but nationalism or national myths.
If you want at a really telling example you have to look no further than the last republican debate and the sheeplike "patriotic" reaction Ron Paul got over 9/11
You are so predictive mr objective lol
Accurate though, you will without doubt as soon as your country is in a major topic again adopt your bunker mentality and try and defend everything long after your arguements have fallen apart once more.
A perfect example of looking through the white and blue glasses.
@Tribesman
That is what people do in hard times, be it war/ terror, economical, natural distaster or what ever... they huddle round the leader / look to the higher order, in religious countries they look to god, in capitalist countries we look to our governments to act.
Its perfecty natural in time of crisis (and in 9/11's case, a time of shock.)
Where things can go wrong is when a government DOES act on its peoples initial emotions, by way of a 'knee-jerk' reaction.
People need a little time to calm down and collect themselves. Actions based on emotions are not usually rational or clever ones.
(Such as calling for nuke strikes on afghanistan, or beating up 'middle eastern looking' people.
those hysterical people needed to get a bloody grip!)
In the long run, you certainly dont want political or military decisions to be influenced by these 'lash-out emotions'.
August, please. Don't sink yourself any deeper.
I don't think I'm the one who is overly sensitive on the subject. Debating over this doesn't make me overly sensitive. You act like germans acted during the nazi regime, blindly following the fatherland, refusing to criticize it
Don't compare me to the nazis Crecy. You have no idea what you're talking about.
They just follow popular opinion and are instantly willing to belive anything the government or media tells them at face value - which is increadibly trusting when you consider the frequencey they have been proven to lie and spin.
I have never in my long life met someone like that. I have however met plenty of folks who just assumed the person they were talking to did, but it's always because that person holds a viewpoint they don't share.
Don't compare me to the nazis Crecy. You have no idea what you're talking about.
Just out of curiosity, do you? :hmmm:
Hottentot
09-13-11, 07:37 AM
Just out of curiosity, do you? :hmmm:
Why wouldn't he? I think August is referring to his often repeated slogan of hating the nazis.
Why wouldn't he? I think August is referring to his often repeated slogan of hating the nazis.
Yes, I've seen him state that quite often.
Don't compare me to the nazis Crecy. You have no idea what you're talking about.
First of all, I certainly did not compare you to nazis, I compared you to german people of that time. Or do you think all germans were nazis?
First of all, I certainly did not compare you to nazis, I compared you to german people of that time. Or do you think all germans were nazis?
Yeah Its about a similar mentality, Post Nazi germany was screwed economically by sanctions and depression, the quality of life was beyond miserable, people rallied around hitler because he gave them hope, a scapegoat and the promise of revenge.
Likewise in the aftermath of 9/11, Americans rallied behind Bush for similar reasons. Ditto for us Brits after 7/7.
Typical human behavior, it can happen in any country thats going though a bad time, nazism has nothing to do with it.
It can be potentially dangerous, because people are at their most prone to being manipulated when they are afraid.
Just as Goering pointed out 70 odd years ago.
***8220;Of course the people do not want war. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it is a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism Herman Goering, Nazi Leader-Nuremberg Trial.
@Tribesman
That is what people do in hard times, be it war/ terror, economical, natural distaster or what ever... they huddle round the leader / look to the higher order, in religious countries they look to god, in capitalist countries we look to our governments to act.
Its perfecty natural in time of crisis (and in 9/11's case, a time of shock.)
Where things can go wrong is when a government DOES act on its peoples initial emotions, by way of a 'knee-jerk' reaction.
People need a little time to calm down and collect themselves. Actions based on emotions are not usually rational or clever ones.
(Such as calling for nuke strikes on afghanistan, or beating up 'middle eastern looking' people.
those hysterical people needed to get a bloody grip!)
In the long run, you certainly dont want political or military decisions to be influenced by these 'lash-out emotions'.
We probably would disagree on many occasions about what in YOUR opinion is "jerk off" decision.
Its all matter of perspective available data or viewpoint you had been represented.
First of all, I certainly did not compare you to nazis, I compared you to german people of that time. Or do you think all germans were nazis?
Lets compare everything to nazis.
Nazis wore hats-don't wear hats.
On this forum you will find some people who can be compared to nazis-try to spot the difference.
Just out of curiosity, do you? :hmmm:
Go back to your girly pictures Dowly. Adults are talking here... :up:
Go back to your girly pictures Dowly. Adults are talking here... :up:
Eh.. what did I do to deserve that for? :doh:
Yeah Its about a similar mentality, Post Nazi germany was screwed economically by sanctions and depression, the quality of life was beyond miserable, people rallied around hitler because he gave them hope, a scapegoat and the promise of revenge.
Likewise in the aftermath of 9/11, Americans rallied behind Bush for similar reasons. Ditto for us Brits after 7/7.
You're not seriously trying to compare post 7-7 and 9-11 western life with the horrible economic conditions in post WW1 Germany are you?!
That's like comparing the light breeze blowing outside my window right now with Hurricane Andrew. Such comparisons are just not valid.
You're not seriously trying to compare post 7-7 and 9-11 western life with the horrible economic conditions in post WW1 Germany are you?!
That's like comparing the light breeze blowing outside my window right now with Hurricane Andrew. Such comparisons are just not valid.
Er ...No Im not, re-read my posts.
Er ...No Im not, re-read my posts.
I have and yes you did. :yep:
I have and yes you did. :yep:
If thats how you want to interpret it, thats up to you.
What else can I say..... I was using it as an example: that people get behind their leader when the **** hits the fan - and that we'll all do it.
Sorry if that wasn't clear enough.
Sailor Steve
09-13-11, 01:40 PM
Which creates a semi-related question:
Can a person by his/her own reasoning become a supporter of what authorities say? Because it seems that whenever people are being called to think for themselves, it also includes the implication of disagreeing with the authorities. I for one agree with quite many things that my country's authorities do and say, while disagreeing with others. Am I a brainwashed sheep?
Agreeing with specific government policies represents brainwashing no more than disagreeing with them. The danger becomes apparent when the speaker or writer agrees (or disagrees) with all stated policies across the board seemingly without analyzing each one. Many party-liners in America do exactly that. If you're a Conservative you hate gays, abortion, any kind of social welfare and of course any government spending. If you're a Liberal you believe that the Government is the answer to every problem man can have. Of course there are huge numbers of people who don't agree with every policy but support the party that mostly agrees with them.
Blindly following anything without question is dangerous, and that includes the concept of hating the party in power, or government in general, so much that you condemn anyone who agrees with any policy put forth by that party.
So no, you're not brainwashed because you agree with some policy or other, but there are people who will tell you you are. Are they brainwashed? Possibly. I'd say you have to worry about the ones who are all one or the other. Anybody who actually thinks for himself will never be that absolute, or convinced he's right all the time.
Anybody who actually thinks for himself will never be that absolute, or convinced he's right all the time.
Spot on! :up:
If thats how you want to interpret it, thats up to you.
What else can I say..... I was using it as an example: that people get behind their leader when the **** hits the fan - and that we'll all do it.
Sorry if that wasn't clear enough.
Well it's a bad example. I won't speak for your country but over here people just don't have such blind allegiance to any individual, especially the President.
Of course there are always those who interpret anything shy of total distaste and hatred as blind allegiance and that might be where you got this idea but remember:
"My country right or wrong" doesn't mean "My leader right or wrong".
mookiemookie
09-13-11, 03:57 PM
Well it's a bad example. I won't speak for your country but over here people just don't have such blind allegiance to any individual, especially the President.
Of course there are always those who interpret anything shy of total distaste and hatred as blind allegiance and that might be where you got this idea but remember:
"My country right or wrong" doesn't mean "My leader right or wrong".
There's plenty of "true believers" in this country, as in every country. It's human nature.
Well it's a bad example. I won't speak for your country but over here people just don't have such blind allegiance to any individual, especially the President.
Nah of course not, which is why the majority supported Bush when he traded in some of your civil liberties for protection, then you supported him though two invasions that undermined the U.N, cost you billions of tax dollars and thousands of soldiers lives. All the while pretty much branding anyone who spoke out against these actions as a 'terrorist supporter?' to the tune of his "with us or with the terrorists" speech. Remember the boycott of France?
From out side looking in, the U.S appeared to have decended into a flag waving paranoid angry mob with the president leading the charge.
Does this sound anything like America under normal rational minded circumstances?
You kinda see where these 2001 U.S - 1930s Germany comparisons are coming from now?
Like I said, when any country suffers at he hands of an outside influence, this is pretty much what goes down. America and Germany are just two examples of many, it can happen anywhere to anyone, even to me - Its just an observation so don't take it personally.
And just incase its still not crystal clear, no-one is comparing Amercians to Nazis!
TLAM Strike
09-13-11, 05:40 PM
...then you supported him though two invasions that undermined the U.N...
That's not true!
You can't undermine the UN; it has no authority, power, creditability or integrity to undermine! ;)
Tribesman
09-13-11, 05:46 PM
"My country right or wrong" doesn't mean "My leader right or wrong".
But either one is still blind.
That's not true!
You can't undermine the UN; it has no authority, power, creditability or integrity to undermine! ;)
... Anymore :O:
That's not true!
You can't undermine the UN; it has no authority, power, creditability or integrity to undermine! ;) There are certain types of operations that comes from there but never reaches the surface ... then the audience,
:03:
There are certain types of operations that comes from there but never reaches the surface ... then the audience,
:03:
Top secret shhh, dont tell them about UN's covert blue helmeted ninja squad.
You kinda see where these 2001 U.S - 1930s Germany comparisons are coming from now?
The comparisons come from you and they are still not valid.
You say a "majority supported Bush", so what? A majority supported Obama just 4 years later. Does that make him our next Fuehrer in your eyes? After all, Adolf Hitler wore pants and, OMG, Barack Obama wears pants! He must be just like Hitler!
Do you really think Hitler and co would have left power voluntarily like Bush and the Republicans did in 2008? This is one reason why your comparison is not valid.
As for the UN. To heck with them. I've been saying we need to kick those UN leeches out of our country for years now, long before George Bush became president. Our dislike of that useless entity (the UN not Bush) does not start or end with him.
Nah of course not, which is why the majority supported Bush when he traded in some of your civil liberties for protection, then you supported him though two invasions that undermined the U.N, cost you billions of tax dollars and thousands of soldiers lives. All the while pretty much branding anyone who spoke out against these actions as a 'terrorist supporter?' to the tune of his "with us or with the terrorists" speech. Remember the boycott of France?
UN had never the stomach to do the right thing...not in this case and not in Yugoslavia or ME.
UN always tries to keep majority of its members happy by protecting their own interests.
France had its own business in Iraq.
As some one who claims to be so versatile you should realise at least that much.
I'm not fan of Bush but i still think that most of the criticism toward him is worth as much as some extreme right wing critics toward Obama.
What Bush did may be seen as mistake and gamble which went wrong therefore every one can be so clever about it in retrospective.
Its also good tool for fear mongering about right wing.
"The patriot act" that there is so much ranting about...how it really affect life and freedoms of average American?
The issue grew up to proportion of Bush government wanting to control whole American population while riding on a fear.
Is it true or just regular political crap spawn by left wing?
Its legitimate to defend personal freedoms but all the rant about Bush is over the top.
Its leftist fear mongering no less.
There is lot of polarisation going on from both sides.
I hope USA will find its way after all those turbulent 10 years when jumping from extreme to extreme may be natural in politics.
hiding behind Obama may be seen just as a claim about Bush considering the circumstances.
Its legitimate to defend personal freedoms but all the rant about Bush is over the top.
Its leftist fear mongering no less.
Of course it is. Notice he has nothing to say about the two whole years the Democrats ran the whole enchilada but failed to repeal the Patriot act. But to him it's all Bush's fault... :roll:
The comparisons come from you and they are still not valid.
You say a "majority supported Bush", so what? A majority supported Obama just 4 years later. Does that make him our next Fuehrer in your eyes? After all, Adolf Hitler wore pants and, OMG, Barack Obama wears pants! He must be just like Hitler!
Do you really think Hitler and co would have left power voluntarily like Bush and the Republicans did in 2008? This is one reason why your comparison is not valid.
As for the UN. To heck with them. I've been saying we need to kick those UN leeches out of our country for years now, long before George Bush became president. Our dislike of that useless entity (the UN not Bush) does not start or end with him.
Its almost like he's not reading my posts at all. :doh:
Of course it is. Notice he has nothing to say about the two whole years the Democrats ran the whole enchilada but failed to repeal the Patriot act. But to him it's all Bush's fault... :roll:
Bushes fault? This wasn't even about Democrates or Republicans, what are you talking about?
I give up August - sorry mate I cant be bothered anymore, you win I guess :dead:.
Bushes fault? This wasn't even about Democrates or Republicans, what are you talking about?
I give up August - sorry mate I cant be bothered anymore, you win I guess :dead:.
No it wasn't...it was about people's attitude of which you are victim as well.....
Its all matter of perspective.
yeas... always doubt and analyse your government.
Tribesman
09-14-11, 12:49 PM
Its almost like he's not reading my posts at all.
Its just that he is reading them with the glasses on, that was the whole point wasn't it.
This wasn't even about Democrates or Republicans, what are you talking about?
Its the plain default position, if you criticise a decison by Bush then it means you are giving a pass to Obama, if you thought the invasion of Iraq was a throughly predictable pile of crap then you love Saddam....or to explore the original tangent, if you think the latest version of the national myth being touted in someones post isn't really true then you hate that country.
Pure nonsense isn't it.:yep:
Top secret shhh, dont tell them about UN's covert blue helmeted ninja squad. I will not.....
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