In Immigrant Areas, a Culture Clash Over Gay Marriage

[Gerald]

Molly Blooms, a Victorian-accented Irish bar in Sunnyside, Queens, recently raffled off a free same-sex wedding reception, with a three-hour open bar, a D.J., a photographer and a horse-drawn gilded carriage to deliver the winning couple to the festivities. The bar’s owner thought the idea would be good for business and for the largely working-class and immigrant neighborhood.

But some in the community disagreed.

Neighbors said they would boycott the bar. Bloggers posted reports of past health violations there. Larry Yang, the Korean-American owner of a hardware store next door, said he resented such a public promotion of same-sex marriage. He said many among the large number of Korean-American Christians in Queens felt similarly but feared that if they spoke out they would be demonized by a liberal majority.

“If that horse-drawn carriage rides by my store, I will make sure my kids do not see it,” Mr. Yang, 45, said. “I am worried about what kind of message gay marriage is sending.”

The legalization of same-sex marriage in New York State has been embraced by many in the city. But in some neighborhoods heavily populated by immigrants from countries where homosexuality is less accepted, the idea is stirring feelings of unease or, at times, outright disgust.

Sunnyside has been transformed in recent decades, first by immigration, and more recently by urban professionals priced out of Manhattan. As in some other parts of the city, same-sex marriage has laid bare the clash between the social conservatism of many immigrants and the values of the often wealthier and more liberal newcomers to the neighborhood.

Many immigrants in Sunnyside are Muslims from Turkey, where the military, the guardian of the country’s secular state, regards homosexuality as a disorder. On a recent day on 46th Street, a group of men hunched over Turkish newspapers next to a mosque in a part of the neighborhood that includes kebab shops, a Jewish community center, a Romanian restaurant and a Russian hairdresser.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/08/nyregion/gay-marriages-frowned-on-by-some-immigrant-groups.html?src=me&ref=nyregion


Note: September 7, 2011

[Jimbuna]

A marker :hmmm:

[Gerald]

Could be...

[AVGWarhawk]

There is an old saying, "Can't make everyone happy all the time."

[ZeeWolf]

I know the solution for this depravity! :D

:arrgh!:

[mookiemookie]

Many immigrants in Sunnyside are Muslims from Turkey, where the military, the guardian of the country’s secular state, regards homosexuality as a disorder.

Tough. This isn't Turkey, this is America where it isn't, so they can just get over it.

[August]

Tough. This isn't Turkey, this is America where it isn't, so they can just get over it.

It's not Seoul, or Bucharest or Moscow either, but they have a right to their opinions just like you do. You can't legislate people likes or dislikes.

[ZeeWolf]

Anyway, "tolerance" with this kind of degenerate depravity is only temporary.
America is awakening, especially with us Christians.
Multi-cultural Diversity is as communist as you can possibly get. This federal
mandated to destroy White Christian America has been exposed for what it is
- finally! :up:
Those decent, moral and Christian "LEGAL" immigrants want no part of the
revenge campaign of wealth redistribution and demonizing the White race as
mass murdering ex-slave masters who lost there right of sovereign self-governing.
As a White Christian Heterosexual, I clearly see this assault
on White Christian America - and I do not like it.

[AVGWarhawk]

It's not Seoul, or Bucharest or Moscow either, but they have a right to their opinions just like you do. You can't legislate people likes or dislikes.


Good point!

[Tchocky]

Anyway, "tolerance" with this kind of degenerate depravity is only temporary.
America is awakening, especially with us Christians.

You call yourself a Christian while saying things like this? You have a mighty interesting definition.

This federal
mandated to destroy White Christian America has been exposed for what it is
- finally! :up: You're missing a noun and a boatload of decency.

As a White Christian Heterosexual, I clearly see this assault
on White Christian America - and I do not like it.

More of an Old Testament fan then.

[TLAM Strike]

Multi-cultural Diversity is as communist as you can possibly get.

Could someone point me in the direction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russification#Under_the_Soviet_Union) of a Communist state (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution)where cultural diversity is encouraged (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodia_under_Pol_Pot)?

[razark]

Those decent, moral and Christian ...
"Many immigrants in Sunnyside are Muslims from Turkey..."

Interesting.

[mookiemookie]

It's not Seoul, or Bucharest or Moscow either, but they have a right to their opinions just like you do. You can't legislate people likes or dislikes.

Isn't it usually those on the right that are big advocates of immigrants assimilating into their new culture?

[MH]

Isn't it usually those on the right that are big advocates of immigrants assimilating into their new culture?

Isn't a culture an outcome of vast different views among other things.

[mookiemookie]

Isn't a culture an outcome of vast different views among other things.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say your culture sucks if it's based around hate and intolerance of others.

[ZeeWolf]

Could someone point me in the direction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russification#Under_the_Soviet_Union) of a Communist state (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution)where cultural diversity is encouraged (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodia_under_Pol_Pot)?

The term multi-cultural diversity is a foundational push of the new Marxist
agenda for the US. A weapon if you will, to cause chaos and disunity among
Americans while at the sometime creating a false concern for non-white people in the US.
It's a facet of class warfare. The most successful btw.

[Tchocky]

The term multi-cultural diversity is a foundational push of the new Marxist
agenda for the US.

You must live far away from commercial air routes. The chemtrails get into your brain and Marxify your God-given freedom of WHITE CHRISTIAN HETEROSEXUAL speech.

It's too late for me.

Go on without me

[Buddahaid]

The term multi-cultural diversity is a foundational push of the new Marxist
agenda for the US. A weapon if you will, to cause chaos and disunity among
Americans while at the sometime creating a false concern for non-white people in the US.
It's a facet of class warfare. The most successful btw.

I thought you were being sarcastic but I see I'm wrong. I don't think there ever was, or ever will be, a white Christian totalitarian state you seem to long for. And it's a good thing as that state would make Iran look tolerant. Yippee the US constitution wins again.

[MH]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say your culture sucks if it's based around hate and intolerance of others.

Most people don't really care about gays and you polarising this issue.
I don't think that someone who says that gay married feels wrong is going to stone one to death tomorrow.
ZeeWolf might do it though.:haha:

[ZeeWolf]

Most people don't really care about gays and you polarising this issue.
I don't think that someone who says that gay married feels wrong is going to stone one to death tomorrow.
ZeeWolf might do it though.:haha:

No, no stoning by me. You are refering to the Law of Moses in which all Jews will be judged by.
Or I should say all who think they are Jews. As for it pertaining to us Christians, it is used to
learn what God's position is on the subject.
And as far as "feeling wrong" feelings are irrelevant concerning sin.
Feelings are subjective and ever changing but the Word of God stands forever.
That's good news for some and very bad news for others. Especially for those
who claim Abraham is their father, for them the law is absolute and totally
unmerciful as unyielding as stone it's self. And all those who judge the law
as evil - I truly pity you.
But hey, anyone who call such a sick and depraved behavior "Gay" certainly
could careless about the true things of God.

[Sailor Steve]

You call yourself a Christian while saying things like this? You have a mighty interesting definition.

You're missing a noun and a boatload of decency.

More of an Old Testament fan then.
Some people who call themselves Christian concern themselves with serving as Jesus served, helping others and proclaiming their truth. Others who call themselves Christian concern themselves with hating anyone who disagrees with them, and blaming the world's problems on those they hate. They forget the part about plucking the splinter out of the other guy's eye, and the last place they would ever look for the real problem is in the mirror.

[Morts]

No, no stoning by me. You are refering to the Law of Moses in which all Jews will be judged by.
Or I should say all who think they are Jews. As for it pertaining to us Christians, it is used to
learn what God's position is on the subject.
And as far as "feeling wrong" feelings are irrelevant concerning sin.
Feelings are subjective and ever changing but the Word of God stands forever.
That's good news for some and very bad news for others. Especially for those
who claim Abraham is their father, for them the law is absolute and totally
unmerciful as unyielding as stone it's self. And all those who judge the law
as evil - I truly pity you.
But hey, anyone who call such a sick and depraved behavior "Gay" certainly
could careless about the true things of God.
sick and depraved behavior ? Thats not how you spell natural.
oh FYI, homosexuality is completely normal :up:

[Tchocky]

Some people who call themselves Christian concern themselves with serving as Jesus served, helping others and proclaiming their truth. Others who call themselves Christian concern themselves with hating anyone who disagrees with them, and blaming the world's problems on those they hate. They forget the part about plucking the splinter out of the other guy's eye, and the last place they would ever look for the real problem is in the mirror.

:up:

There are indeed a fair amount who see religion as a vehicle rather than a destination.

[MH]

No, no stoning by me. You are refering to the Law of Moses in which all Jews will be judged by.
Or I should say all who think they are Jews. As for it pertaining to us Christians, it is used to
learn what God's position is on the subject.
And as far as "feeling wrong" feelings are irrelevant concerning sin.
Feelings are subjective and ever changing but the Word of God stands forever.
That's good news for some and very bad news for others. Especially for those
who claim Abraham is their father, for them the law is absolute and totally
unmerciful as unyielding as stone it's self. And all those who judge the law
as evil - I truly pity you.
But hey, anyone who call such a sick and depraved behavior "Gay" certainly
could careless about the true things of God.

As some theologists say....let idiot read too much scripture and it will drive him mad.

[Tribesman]

America is awakening, especially with us Christians.

A jew hating nazi bigot calling himself a christian
what a muppet:doh:

[Stealhead]

Some people who call themselves Christian concern themselves with serving as Jesus served, helping others and proclaiming their truth. Others who call themselves Christian concern themselves with hating anyone who disagrees with them, and blaming the world's problems on those they hate. They forget the part about plucking the splinter out of the other guy's eye, and the last place they would ever look for the real problem is in the mirror.


Hit the nail right on the head.The same applies to many who call them selves Jews and Muslims the scripture is a bit different but the idea is the same.

[August]

Isn't it usually those on the right that are big advocates of immigrants assimilating into their new culture?

Possibly, although the Melting Pot concept is hardly a creation of the right. But isn't it usually the left who are big advocates of maintaining the cultural differences of the various immigrant communities?

Besides whose domestic culture should these oafish immigrants be assimilating into? Yours or mine or somebody elses? After all you and I agree on some things but in many more we do not, so what exactly defines the American culture model is not very clear.

In any case diversity advocates ought to remember that cultural assimilation is two way street. That which goes into our melting pot is blended in, not destroyed.

[ZeeWolf]

A jew hating nazi bigot calling himself a christian
what a muppet:doh:

Hey what happened to the chant "Racist, Bigot, Homophobia" doesn't that
work for you people anymore? :DL

Actually the term "Christian" was given to us by the Romans and not by my
Lord and Savoir Jesus Christ. :yep:

[Sailor Steve]

"Ye shall know them by their fruits." Calling yourself by the name means nothing when your actions say the opposite.

[ZeeWolf]

Can, ca, ca, can't we all just get along?
-Rodney King

What a true Christian! :haha:

I love Martin Luther (the German monk), he is truly a roll model for Christians who defy those who compromise. Loathed by the enemies of God btw.

[Tribesman]

Actually the term "Christian" was given to us by the Romans and not by my

Mussolini called nazis "Christians"?
Well we learn something new everyday, what a fountain of wisdom Stormfront must be.
I would have thought that anyone with a functioning brain would know that the words origins are with the greeks not the romans.


I love Martin Luther
Maybe you can book the gay wedding venue

[Hottentot]

http://sinfest.net/comikaze/comics/2011-09-07.gif

[Gerald]

^:O:

[ZeeWolf]

Mussolini called nazis "Christians"?
Well we learn something new everyday, what a fountain of wisdom Stormfront must be.
I would have thought that anyone with a functioning brain would know that the words origins are with the greeks not the romans.



Maybe you can book the gay wedding venue


Interesting,

love = homosexual perversion.

No wonder you people have to use can phrase when denouncing your
enemies. Your true nature will ooze out otherwise. :D
Why not quote Martin Luther openly especially about those who pretend
to be Jews. In doing so maybe your hatred for Christ will ooze out too :DL

Btw which forum are you payed to disrupt stormfront or subsim?

[AVGWarhawk]

you people:hmmm:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_qIdxc0EEs44/TCLvrLPbOeI/AAAAAAAAA6g/MJ-hPQlZs_o/s320/what_do_you_mean_you_people_tshirt-p235444994006793345t5tr_400.jpg

[Growler]

Interesting,

love = homosexual perversion.

No wonder you people have to use can phrase when denouncing your
enemies. Your true nature will ooze out otherwise. :D
Why not quote Martin Luther openly especially about those who pretend
to be Jews. In doing so maybe your hatred for Christ will ooze out too :DL

Btw which forum are you payed to disrupt stormfront or subsim?

So while you're banging on about the evil lives all these other, non-Christian or non-doctrinals are living, aren't you forgetting your "Lord and Savior's" admonition to "turn the other cheek?" Or does that just not apply to them?

What continues to amaze me is the fact that otherwise intelligent people, capable of what would appear to be some level of cognitive reasoning and expression, can so easily, blindly, and unconcernedly follow a doctrine that is so plainly archaic and outdated. Based on their logic, I would imagine that moments after the non-doctrinals are tortured, lined up, and executed for the salvation of their souls, the remaining women will be back to barefoot, pregnant, and dead at thirty in short order.

[Betonov]

So while you're banging on about the evil lives all these other, non-Christian or non-doctrinals are living....

Good question Growler. WHY is he so interested in gays ???

Some secret desire, a skeleton in his closet, an old flame that rejected him because of some other more masculine man.
C'mon, ZeeWolf, share us your pain, the first step to healing is admiting

[Buddahaid]

Interesting,

love = homosexual perversion.

No wonder you people have to use can phrase when denouncing your
enemies. Your true nature will ooze out otherwise. :D
Why not quote Martin Luther openly especially about those who pretend
to be Jews. In doing so maybe your hatred for Christ will ooze out too :DL

Btw which forum are you payed to disrupt stormfront or subsim?

I suppose you would believe the five billion or so people who are not Christians will all burn in hell for not seeing the true God. Well no matter the joke will be on you in the end.

[ZeeWolf]

So while you're banging on about the evil lives all these other, non-Christian or non-doctrinals are living, aren't you forgetting your "Lord and Savior's" admonition to "turn the other cheek?" Or does that just not apply to them?

What continues to amaze me is the fact that otherwise intelligent people, capable of what would appear to be some level of cognitive reasoning and expression, can so easily, blindly, and unconcernedly follow a doctrine that is so plainly archaic and outdated. Based on their logic, I would imagine that moments after the non-doctrinals are tortured, lined up, and executed for the salvation of their souls, the remaining women will be back to barefoot, pregnant, and dead at thirty in short order.


Greetings Growler,

No need for your concern about what Christ says to the believer. Your
concern should be directed to what he said about those who refuse to
believe. That's what I did and I am very happy I did.

[AVGWarhawk]

This thread went south. :hmmm:

[Dowly]

This thread went south. :hmmm:

You make it sound like it's a bad thing. :hmmm:

[razark]

This thread went south. :hmmm:
The title could have told you that it would. Immigrants, culture, and gay marriage.


But there's still one missing! Who will be the first to tie this to Obama or the Tea Party?

[Betonov]

Obama invited the Queen to a tea party yesterday :O:

[AVGWarhawk]

But there's still one missing! Who will be the first to tie this to Obama or the Tea Party?

Even money on Yubba!

[Growler]

Greetings Growler,

No need for your concern about what Christ says to the believer. Your
concern should be directed to what he said about those who refuse to
believe. That's what I did and I am very happy I did.

Oh, I disagree wholeheartedly. What Christ alleged says to his believers concerns me just as much as what Mohammed allegedly says to his believers, and what any other man-constructed religious mythological godhead allegedly says to its believers. The entire concept of "Messages from the Lord" should concern every rational human being on the planet, because, despite the loud protestations of all sorts of followers, I have yet to see a "Religion of Peace" be exactly that.

[Growler]

You make it sound like it's a bad thing. :hmmm:

Agreed! From where I sit, south is down... and there's nothing wrong with going there, as far as I can see... unless you're an airplane... then it could be bad.

[ZeeWolf]

Good question Growler. WHY is he so interested in gays ???

Some secret desire, a skeleton in his closet, an old flame that rejected him because of some other more masculine man.
C'mon, ZeeWolf, share us your pain, the first step to healing is admiting

No secrets here Dr. Betonv, Ive never had an interest with "gay" but a revolting hatred for the behavior I saw on the TV program "To Catch a Predator" hosted by Chris Hansen. Before that I had know idea what the
"gays" were doing to America. So, I would like to thank Chris Hansen for
the courage to shed so light on the "Secret".

[Betonov]

Even money on Yubba!

Put me done to EUR 10 (payday still hasn't come, cant afford to gamble) :O:

[Gerald]

Even money on Yubba! Tribesman,is low odds...

[AVGWarhawk]

No secrets here Dr. Betonv, Ive never had an interest with "gay" but a revolting hatred for the behavior I saw on the TV program "To Catch a Predator" hosted by Chris Hansen. Before that I had know idea what the
"gays" were doing to America. So, I would like to thank Chris Hansen for
the courage to shed so light on the "Secret".

Did we already have a thread on this subject before? :hmmm:

[Betonov]

I saw on the TV program "To Catch a Predator" hosted by Chris Hansen.

I think I also saw that, but wasn't it titled Fishing adventures with Rex Hunt :hmmm: A trout is a predator fish

[AVGWarhawk]

Tribesman,is low odds...

:up:

[Morts]

No secrets here Dr. Betonv, Ive never had an interest with "gay" but a revolting hatred for the behavior I saw on the TV program "To Catch a Predator" hosted by Chris Hansen. Before that I had know idea what the
"gays" were doing to America. So, I would like to thank Chris Hansen for
the courage to shed so light on the "Secret".
So what you're really saying is that you're an ignorant fool who based his hatred off of a TV show and not actual experience.
Got it :yeah:

[Growler]

Did we already have a thread on this subject before? :hmmm:

Haven't we had a thread on just about every subject before? Sometimes in the same thread, and all at once?:hmmm:

[AVGWarhawk]

I think I also saw that, but wasn't it titled Fishing adventures with Rex Hunt :hmmm: A trout is a predator fish


No, it was Mutual of Omaha Wild Kingdom.

[ZeeWolf]

I suppose you would believe the five billion or so people who are not Christians will all burn in hell for not seeing the true God. Well no matter the joke will be on you in the end.

So where do you plan to put your thrown, next to Christ or above him?

[flatsixes]

Leave Jesus out of this, you lunkhead.

[Growler]

Leave Jesus out of this, you lunkhead.

In complete seriousness, I'd like to officially nominate the quoted post for Post of the Year. I mean, look at it. How can it NOT be? This is perfection, gentlemen. It just doesn't get any more succinct, eloquent, poignant, and totally, completely accurate as this.

[ZeeWolf]

Oh, I disagree wholeheartedly. What Christ alleged says to his believers concerns me just as much as what Mohammed allegedly says to his believers, and what any other man-constructed religious mythological godhead allegedly says to its believers. The entire concept of "Messages from the Lord" should concern every rational human being on the planet, because, despite the loud protestations of all sorts of followers, I have yet to see a "Religion of Peace" be exactly that.

That's because peace dose not come from religion nor the heart of man. So
stop wasting your time looking for one. But, there is one who gives man
peace. Peace with God and only one way to enter the Kingdom of God and
that is through Christ Jesus. All the other ways are counterfeits.

[ZeeWolf]

Leave Jesus out of this, you lunkhead.

no!

[Buddahaid]

That's because peace dose not come from religion nor the heart of man. So
stop wasting your time looking for one. But, there is one who gives man
peace. Peace with God and only one way to enter the Kingdom of God and
that is through Christ Jesus. All the other ways are counterfeits.

I get to repeat myself. "I suppose you would believe the five billion or so people who are not Christians will all burn in hell for not seeing the true God. Well no matter the joke will be on you in the end".

As far as where I put my thrown(throne), it's normally in the WC and has little to do with Jesus. But for an answer you may understand, I'll put it above until the Christian God earns my respect by examples of rational behavior and goodwill. Those are traits I admire and respect. Vindictiveness, unstable temperament, and power are a terrible combination worthy of no ones fealty. And if God is omnipotent, why does he need earthly humans to do his will? He doesn't and that shows the conceit of the overly pious. Lead your life as you believe fit and let others do the same. God can punish them without your help.

[TLAM Strike]

Ive never had an interest with "gay" but a revolting hatred for the behavior I saw on the TV program "To Catch a Predator" hosted by Chris Hansen.

I saw that too! I loved the part where he discovered he could hide from the Predator's heat vision by covering him self in mud. :yeah:

... never knew the Alien was gay though... :hmmm:

[Gerald]

... never knew the Alien was gay though... :haha:

[ZeeWolf]

I get to repeat myself. "I suppose you would believe the five billion or so people who are not Christians will all burn in hell for not seeing the true God. Well no matter the joke will be on you in the end".

As far as where I put my thrown(throne), it's normally in the WC and has little to do with Jesus. But for an answer you may understand, I'll put it above until the Christian God earns my respect by examples of rational behavior and goodwill. Those are traits I admire and respect. Vindictiveness, unstable temperament, and power are a terrible combination worthy of no ones fealty. And if God is omnipotent, why does he need earthly humans to do his will? He doesn't and that shows the conceit of the overly pious. Lead your life as you believe fit and let others do the same. God can punish them without your help.

Don't worry eat drink and be marry for someone as holy and perfect as you
are should just realize if you are wrong (a slight incontestable chance) you
will only get what you deserve - now do you understand way there is a need for hell?

[razark]

now do you understand way there is a need for hell?
I don't understand why there needs to be a hell. Can you explain it to me?

[ZeeWolf]

I don't understand why there needs to be a hell. Can you explain it to me?

What do you beleive concerning God?

[razark]

What do you beleive concerning God?
Gods in general:
I have not been convinced that any of the gods that have been described to me exist.

Specifically the god of the bible:
If he exists and he and his actions are as described in the book, I find him to be an immoral creature, deserving neither respect or worship. The existence of hell is part of why I hold that view. Even if I were to take the framework of the creation/fall/redemption story as true, I still see no need for it, other than as a threat to coerce people to conform to the god's commands.

[Dowly]

The whole concept of Heaven and Hell is contradicting to what God is supposed to
be: the good guy.

"Don't do as I say? Fine, you'll burn in hell for eternity!"

Sounds like a great guy! :doh:

[Buddahaid]

Don't worry eat drink and be marry for someone as holy and perfect as you
are should just realize if you are wrong (a slight incontestable chance) you
will only get what you deserve - now do you understand way there is a need for hell?

Oh I understand that perfectly. There is no need for Heaven without Hell, no need for Hell without Heaven. In that sense they are inseparable as two sides of the same coin and give argument for God being one with the Devil.

And, I'm quite a good step from being holy and perfect which I never claimed to be, although I find my world view to be more Christian than yours in practice.

We all make our own Hell to our own needs which is usually punishment enough for most of us. Eternity? I'll cease to be when I die is all there is. The rest is wishful thinking for something greater and more noble I will not buy into as a leap of faith. A very convenient way to sidestep rational thinking making believers impossible to argue with eventually. I hope you find you're heaven after all.

[Growler]

Gods in general:


Could have been a better movie, but Stephen Lang was good as Jackson.

Wut?

[MH]

The whole concept of Heaven and Hell is contradicting to what God is supposed to
be: the good guy.

"Don't do as I say? Fine, you'll burn in hell for eternity!"

Sounds like a great guy! :doh:

The concept seems to work well for guys like ZeeWolf...
Seems it scared the hell out of him just like some peasant in 14th century...

In Judaism there is no concept of hell.
It was added later to keep people in line.

[ZeeWolf]

Gods in general:
I have not been convinced that any of the gods that have been described to me exist.

Specifically the god of the bible:
If he exists and he and his actions are as described in the book, I find him to be an immoral creature, deserving neither respect or worship. The existence of hell is part of why I hold that view. Even if I were to take the framework of the creation/fall/redemption story as true, I still see no need for it, other than as a threat to coerce people to conform to the god's commands.

Ok, If (I am assuming) you read the bible and you have considered what
was said and then decide to reject it then it's all said and done - what
can I say?
But what got the hook in me was what I read about the disciples. At first
after the death of Christ they hid in fear of the Jews. But once Christ
appeared to them they no longer feared the Jews a went out and faced
the worst the Jews could do to them even death. To simply say they saw
Jesus after his death on the cross and that he in fact rose from the dead.
Now you have to understand if they would have just went underground
so-to-speak the Jews would have let them live. But they went boldly out
to face a certain death from those who hated and had a blood lust for
Christ and those who followed him.
And then the more I studied the more I became convinced of the historical
authenticity of the accounts given in the bible. Now, there is no looking
back for me.

[Dowly]

The concept seems to work well for guys like ZeeWolf...
Seems it scared the hell out of him just like some peasant in 14th century...

Well, yes, it works in doing just that. :88)

In Judaism there is no concept of hell.
It was added later to keep people in line.

Aye, right you are. :salute:

[Sailor Steve]

Unfortunately your knowledge of the way the Bible was written is limited. When it says "Jews" it is referring specifically to the Pharisees, the religious leaders. The common Jew knew nothing of Jesus, and didn't care one way or the other. There were many men hailed as "Messiah" at the time, and they all had their friends and their enemies.

I find it interesting that you never talk about Christ or your faith until people challenge your undeniable animosity for certain groups and your tendency to connect with people who are known for their hatred and anger. Then you fall back on "I'm a Christian and you're going to burn in hell!" I've never seen you once in these forums actually try to save people from hell, or to convince them the Christ is "The Way."

[razark]

Ok, If (I am assuming) you read the bible and you have considered what
was said and then decide to reject it then it's all said and done - what
can I say?
My view is that I do not choose what to believe and disbelieve. I can no more choose to believe the bible than I can choose to believe that water is not wet, or choose to believe the sky is green. Belief is the result of your brain processing the information it has available. I will not say that I have read every word of the bible, but I have read large portions of it, and find it to resemble more an ancient society's world view and less an authoritative book of history, science, morality, or any other subject. In addition, I have read other accounts of history and the history of the bible, and that further removed the bible from the category of authoritative literature.


And then the more I studied the more I became convinced of the historical
authenticity of the accounts given in the bible.
And the more I learned about the bible, the less I was able to consider it accurate.


However, none of that addresses the question. Even if we take every bit of the bible as true, why is hell necessary? The only thing I can see it being needed for is to coerce people to comply. If god is omnipotent/omniscient, he should be able to achieve his ends without the need of eternal torture. If he is omnibenevolent, eternal torture (or even non-eternal torture) should go against his very nature.

[ZeeWolf]

My view is that I do not choose what to believe and disbelieve. I can no more choose to believe the bible than I can choose to believe that water is not wet, or choose to believe the sky is green. Belief is the result of your brain processing the information it has available. I will not say that I have read every word of the bible, but I have read large portions of it, and find it to resemble more an ancient society's world view and less an authoritative book of history, science, morality, or any other subject. In addition, I have read other accounts of history and the history of the bible, and that further removed the bible from the category of authoritative literature.


And the more I learned about the bible, the less I was able to consider it accurate.


However, none of that addresses the question. Even if we take every bit of the bible as true, why is hell necessary? The only thing I can see it being needed for is to coerce people to comply. If god is omnipotent/omniscient, he should be able to achieve his ends without the need of eternal torture. If he is omnibenevolent, eternal torture (or even non-eternal torture) should go against his very nature.


I think you are confusing the issue with things
that we learn to believe as children through
the five senses. Which depends on each other
to confirm our conclusion. what I mean can be
demonstrated for example by a simple game you
can play by closing your eyes and have someone
feed you a spoonful of something familiar with
out the use of you sight. You will be amazed how
easily you choose to believe you are eating
something that in reality is totally wrong.
And another example is the man who hears from
his best friend tell him his wife is cheating
on him. The facts my be very well prepared and
presented with great sensitivity and more times
then his best friend just became his worst enemy
because he refuses to believe his wife would do
such a thing. This example could also work in
reverse, by having a suspicion about his wife
that no matter what she dose he refuses to
believe her. I could go on but I think you will
understand.
So, I hope you see that "choosing to believe" is
in fact a daily occurrence in our lives.

As for hell it is as much a deterrent as going
to prison for a crime. If you ever interviewed
men who committed crimes that resulted in a prison
sentence many will say they never thought they
would get caught.
There is very little concern for the need for
punishing criminals who work to enforce and uphold
the law. But there is great concern over the need
for prison and punishment from those innocent little
darlings setting in prison.
I guess it matters what side you are on over these
issues. The same logic can apply with the need for
hell.

[Krauter]

In complete seriousness, I'd like to officially nominate the quoted post for Post of the Year. I mean, look at it. How can it NOT be? This is perfection, gentlemen. It just doesn't get any more succinct, eloquent, poignant, and totally, completely accurate as this.

Agreed :up:



... never knew the Alien was gay though... :hmmm:

I think we have a contender :yeah:

@ Zeewolf, I'll just post this video, which is what I think of when people start trying to hate on gays..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mY711HJK7pg

@ Mods/Neal.. Why is this racist... #&&($... a Mod? What the hell is wrong with subsim now.

Edit: Also, Zeewolf, next time you have a thought... just let it go.

[ZeeWolf]

The whole concept of Heaven and Hell is contradicting to what God is supposed to
be: the good guy.

"Don't do as I say? Fine, you'll burn in hell for eternity!"

Sounds like a great guy! :doh:

Look at it this way Dowly it's a pretty good deal,
Suppose you are near the end of your life and suddenly you are
arrested for all the crimes you committed over your entire life.
And they make you a deal that all you have to do is admit to
being guilty of all charges. And in return the will drop all charges
and completely wipe your so record clean that it will be as if you
never violated the law.
That would be a pretty good deal wouldn't you say Dowly?

[Krauter]

So basically you're justifying your racist, hating and disrespectful ways by saying in the end, god will simply wipe the slate clean if you say "sorry".

One big example I can think of people doing this is the crusades, which caused war and hatred for what a couple hundred years... :damn:

[ZeeWolf]

Agreed :up:



I think we have a contender :yeah:

@ Zeewolf, I'll just post this video, which is what I think of when people start trying to hate on gays..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mY711HJK7pg

@ Mods/Neal.. Why is this racist... #&&($... a Mod? What the hell is wrong with subsim now.

Edit: Also, Zeewolf, next time you have a thought... just let it go.

Homophobia is like the term Homosexual they are terms created to deceive.
They are both modern terms that are founded to promote a list of behavior
that any decent man would find repulsive and depraved. Used to overturn
the sodomy Laws of Germany in the mid 1800's. "Homosexual" was a kind of
clinical term to give a false impression of careful medical research attached
to the proponents assertions that it should be made accepted on a firm
scientific bases and not on a moral one.

It all was started with lies and has continued in lies. There is no amount
propaganda no matter how many compromise and bend over to the pier
pressure it is the lowest debasement of man.

[ZeeWolf]

So basically you're justifying your racist, hating and disrespectful ways by saying in the end, god will simply wipe the slate clean if you say "sorry".

One big example I can think of people doing this is the crusades, which caused war and hatred for what a couple hundred years... :damn:

Wait a minute Krauter - when did you ever hear me say I was sorry for my
beliefs ?
This is America! Americans do not cry and hop away like you Canadians do
when denounced as "Racist, Bigot, Homophobias"

Crusades - no. Spanish inquisition - yes

[Krauter]

Wow, how they keep you here is beyond me.

What does my being Canadian have to do with anything? As far as I'm concerned you'd still be a racist, hating disrespectful twit if you were Canadian, German, Russian, Chinese, British, French or came from any other country.

[Oberon]

http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2011/3/21/974fd778-fa7d-4026-ac26-79382b51bf1d.gif

[Dowly]

NEVAAAH! :rock:


Ok, maybe I will, need to go watch David Lynch's Dune. :hmmm:

[razark]

I think you are confusing the issue with things
that we learn to believe as children through
the five senses. ...
So, I hope you see that "choosing to believe" is
in fact a daily occurrence in our lives.
I'm just going to have to disagree. I think we're really talking about different things here, and I don't really feel like debating that point right now.

As for hell it is as much a deterrent as going
to prison for a crime.
That's one of my problems with hell. It's a threat, simply to coerce people to behave a certain way. Let's say you have two people.

Person A does not believe in hell. He does what he believes to be right, based on his desire to do good and for people to treat him the way he treats them.

Person B believes in hell. He does what is right because he is afraid he will be punished at a later time for what he does.

Who is more moral? The person who doesn't rob a bank because he knows robbery is wrong, or the person who doesn't rob banks because he will go to prison?

Person A will do what is right because he believes it is correct to do so. He does not need a system of reward and punishment to be moral. Person B does what is right because he fears punishment. If the threat of punishment were removed, person A would continue to do what he believes is right. Person B may continue to do what is right, but there is also the chance that without the threat of punishment, he will do whatever he wants, to whoever he wants, simply because he knows he will get away with it.


Beyond that, the qualifications for going to hell are not moral. Person A has led a saintly life, done what is right, avoided every possible wrong he could have done, but he does not believe in Jesus. Person B is a horrible mass murder. He has committed every crime he could think of, tortured people for his own entertainment, caused suffering to innocent people at every chance he got. But person B believes in Jesus.

According to the bible, person A will go to hell despite leading an exemplary life. Person B will go to heaven, even though he has committed the worst possible crimes. Going to your prison analogy: A bank has been robbed. The police catch two suspects, A and B. They investigate, and find no evidence pointing to A, but every time they turn around, they find another bit pointing right to B. The police go to B and say "You're guilty! Apologize!" B says "I'm really very sorry.", and the police let him go. They go to A, and say "Apologize for robbing the bank!" A says "I have nothing to apologize for." The police then throw him in prison for the rest of his life.


Another point against hell is the punishment far outweighing the crime. The bible says that those who do not accept Jesus will go to hell to be punished for eternity. A person is capable of only finite acts. Hell is an infinite punishment. If a person was capable of infinite crimes, infinite punishment would be fitting. But infinite punishment for finite crimes is far beyond being moral.


I guess it matters what side you are on over these
issues. The same logic can apply with the need for
hell.
I still do not see the "need" for hell. If hell exists so we will behave, then it is morally wrong. An omnibenevelent, loving god would not be able to commit such an unjustifiable act. Also, if god is omniscient/omnipotent, he knows what will happen, and in fact causes it to happen. If god wants us to be good, he can cause us to be good, and skip the threatening.

[Jimbuna]

http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2011/3/21/974fd778-fa7d-4026-ac26-79382b51bf1d.gif

Rgr that :yep:

[ZeeWolf]

I'm just going to have to disagree. I think we're really talking about different things here, and I don't really feel like debating that point right now.


That's one of my problems with hell. It's a threat, simply to coerce people to behave a certain way. Let's say you have two people.

Person A does not believe in hell. He does what he believes to be right, based on his desire to do good and for people to treat him the way he treats them.

Person B believes in hell. He does what is right because he is afraid he will be punished at a later time for what he does.

Who is more moral? The person who doesn't rob a bank because he knows robbery is wrong, or the person who doesn't rob banks because he will go to prison?

Person A will do what is right because he believes it is correct to do so. He does not need a system of reward and punishment to be moral. Person B does what is right because he fears punishment. If the threat of punishment were removed, person A would continue to do what he believes is right. Person B may continue to do what is right, but there is also the chance that without the threat of punishment, he will do whatever he wants, to whoever he wants, simply because he knows he will get away with it.


Beyond that, the qualifications for going to hell are not moral. Person A has led a saintly life, done what is right, avoided every possible wrong he could have done, but he does not believe in Jesus. Person B is a horrible mass murder. He has committed every crime he could think of, tortured people for his own entertainment, caused suffering to innocent people at every chance he got. But person B believes in Jesus.

According to the bible, person A will go to hell despite leading an exemplary life. Person B will go to heaven, even though he has committed the worst possible crimes. Going to your prison analogy: A bank has been robbed. The police catch two suspects, A and B. They investigate, and find no evidence pointing to A, but every time they turn around, they find another bit pointing right to B. The police go to B and say "You're guilty! Apologize!" B says "I'm really very sorry.", and the police let him go. They go to A, and say "Apologize for robbing the bank!" A says "I have nothing to apologize for." The police then throw him in prison for the rest of his life.


Another point against hell is the punishment far outweighing the crime. The bible says that those who do not accept Jesus will go to hell to be punished for eternity. A person is capable of only finite acts. Hell is an infinite punishment. If a person was capable of infinite crimes, infinite punishment would be fitting. But infinite punishment for finite crimes is far beyond being moral.


I still do not see the "need" for hell. If hell exists so we will behave, then it is morally wrong. An omnibenevelent, loving god would not be able to commit such an unjustifiable act. Also, if god is omniscient/omnipotent, he knows what will happen, and in fact causes it to happen. If god wants us to be good, he can cause us to be good, and skip the threatening.

Person A is the more noble without question.
However this morality issue has noting to do with your position in the eyes
of God.
Please allow me to explain the sin issue from Gods stand point.
All mans sins require blood atonement. In other words to be forgiven
requires a sin offering of blood sacrifice. And Christ is the absolute final
sin offering. Now, to escape the demand God has on all mankind to pay
a sin debt that no man can pay, God sacrificed his only begotten son
so that who ever believes on him will be saved from the penalty of sin.
Christ Jesus did not come into the world to condemn the world because
it is condemned already, but to save the world. So, who ever believes
in Christs full payment for sins will be excepted those who do not will
receive what they deserve.
Mans situation is dire and hopeless. Religion tries to say man can be
accepted if he works his way in by being a do-gooder. That's like trying
to out run a bullet, no matter how hard you run or how good you feel the
bullet hasn't caught up to you yet - it will. Or like the intellectuals who are
quick to see how stupid it is to try an out run a bullet they waste their
time dodging the bullet through clever, high minded reasoning and skepticism,
always wining the debate with their vast knowledge etc. this
too is futile.
We are all born into a bad situation, no matter how you slice it or dice it
it a totally no win - apart from Christ.

[ZeeWolf]

Wow, how they keep you here is beyond me.

What does my being Canadian have to do with anything? As far as I'm concerned you'd still be a racist, hating disrespectful twit if you were Canadian, German, Russian, Chinese, British, French or came from any other country.

Gee Krauter, I didn't realize you where such a pouter. Maybe it's time for your nappy poo!

[MH]

Person A is the more noble without question.
However the morality issue has noting to do with your position in the eyes
of God. Please allow me to explain the sin issue from Gods stand point.
...........

:rotfl2:
Someone nail him please.:har:

[Krauter]

Person A is the more noble without question.
However this morality issue has noting to do with your position in the eyes
of God. Please allow me to explain the sin issue from Gods stand point.
All mans sins require blood atonement. In other words to be forgiven
requires a sin offering of blood sacrifice. And Christ is the absolute final
sin offering. Now, to escape the demand God has on all mankind to pay
a sin debt that no man can pay, God sacrificed his only begotten son
so that who ever believes on him will be saved from the penalty of sin.
Christ Jesus did not come into the world to condemn the world because
it is condemned already, but to save the world. So, who ever believes
in Christs full payment for sins will be excepted those who do not will
receive what they deserve.
Mans situation is dire and hopeless. Religion tries to say man can be
accepted if he works his way in by being a do-gooder. That's like trying
to out run a bullet, no matter how hard you run or how good you feel the
bullet hasn't caught up to you yet - it will. Or like the intellectuals who are
quick to see how stupid it is to try an out run a bullet they waste their
time dodging the bullet through clever, high minded reasoning and skepticism,
always wining the debate with their vast knowledge etc. this
too is futile.
We are all born into a bad situation, no matter how you slice it or dice it
it a totally no win - apart from Christ.

Wow. Sorry I actually kind of fell out of chair laughing there for a sec. After reading this, I'm sorry but I just can't take you seriously anymore.

As for me being a "pouter" where did you ever get that inclination?

[mookiemookie]

Just let it go. People like that are sold on their ideas and there's no changing them.

[ZeeWolf]

Wow. Sorry I actually kind of fell out of chair laughing there for a sec. After reading this, I'm sorry but I just can't take you seriously anymore.

As for me being a "pouter" where did you ever get that inclination?

Look if you do not like or except what I say that's fine but you name call
personal attacks are out of line.
I am fully aware how terrifying it can be (to some) to side or even give a hint of agreement
with someone with a minority view, but to over react with a personal attack in order to show
no one thinks you agree with me is to be expected when you dare to stand up for your beliefs

[razark]

However this morality issue has noting to do with your position in the eyes
of God.
I can agree with that.

All mans sins require blood atonement. In other words to be forgiven
requires a sin offering of blood sacrifice.
Why? Why does god require a sacrifice? He created the rules, he's all powerful. Why does he require a man's horrific torture and death instead of just forgiving people? If he truly is all powerful, why?

Now, to escape the demand God has on all mankind to pay
a sin debt that no man can pay
Why is there some sort of "debt" to be paid in the first place?

God sacrificed his only begotten son...
Christs full payment...

Again, why was this necessary?


We are all born into a bad situation, no matter how you slice it or dice it
it a totally no win - apart from Christ.
So god set up an evil world, drops us into it, and threatens to torture us forever if we don't believe in him... but lovingly sent a man to a bloody death to save us?

[ZeeWolf]

Just let it go. People like that are sold on their ideas and there's no changing them.

That's not true I changed my view. As a matter of fact men change their
views all the time concerning things that don't affect their income. And on
the other hand if changing their view meant earning more money and a
show of success many have no problem changing their views. Isn't that
the modern tactic today for those who have no true core beliefs. Do what
ever it takes, say and think what ever takes.
Take a view at those who represent us in Government. Wouldn't it be a
horrible thought to think they actually do represent us.

[ZeeWolf]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeeWolf http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/smartdark/viewpost.gif (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=1746781#post1746781)
However this morality issue has noting to do with your position in the eyes
of God.

I can agree with that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeeWolf http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/smartdark/viewpost.gif (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=1746781#post1746781)
All mans sins require blood atonement. In other words to be forgiven
requires a sin offering of blood sacrifice.

Why? Why does god require a sacrifice? He created the rules, he's all powerful.
Why does he require a man's horrific torture and death instead of just forgiving people? If he truly is all powerful, why?

Well if I was God that is what I would do. But a time will come when you will
appreciate a God that man can not fully know or comprehend. Could you imagine for example in stead of sixty six books
of the bible there where sixty six trillion books. God has hidden so much from us but enough for guys like me to
comprehend his plan of salvation and that in it self speaks volumes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeeWolf http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/smartdark/viewpost.gif (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=1746781#post1746781)
Now, to escape the demand God has on all mankind to pay
a sin debt that no man can pay

Why is there some sort of "debt" to be paid in the first place?
Adam in the garden of Eden sinned. And therefore was proof to mankind
man could not be obedient to even a single command no matter the environment. God knew this from the
beginning but God was after the heart of man. Creating Adam with a free will meant God wanted man to worship
him from the core of his heart. And as you read the account you see that that was not going to be easy.
Adam turned on God and Eve in a drop of
hat.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeeWolf http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/smartdark/viewpost.gif (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=1746781#post1746781)
God sacrificed his only begotten son...
Christs full payment...

Again, why was this necessary?

It was the greatest expression of love God could do to show man. And
man could never save himself or appreciate the sacrifice until after the fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeeWolf http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/smartdark/viewpost.gif (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=1746781#post1746781)
We are all born into a bad situation, no matter how you slice it or dice it
it a totally no win - apart from Christ.

So god set up an evil world, drops us into it, and threatens to torture us forever if we don't believe in him... but lovingly sent a man to a bloody death to save us?

Hell was never intended for mankind. It was set up for Satan and his Angels
who broke in open rebellion in heaven. Angels where created to live forever
never to die. And God never offered them forgiveness.
To angels they where cast down forever to man he was cast out but with an a single option - Christ Jesus.

[MH]

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQKdHyEsZnZz0nJpzm6YLRPGLeV-DNrcz8KukDVKN0zM4I_ARfbpqjx6NCaCw


http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRCRm6LRzPEHNl6iWXjaGdhBJQCv02hL z6hS2RMiLOlMf_sFNzEvQ

[ZeeWolf]

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRCRm6LRzPEHNl6iWXjaGdhBJQCv02hL z6hS2RMiLOlMf_sFNzEvQ

This one! :DL

[razark]

God has hidden so much from us but enough for guys like me to
comprehend his plan of salvation and that in it self speaks volumes.
Uh huh.

Adam in the garden of Eden sinned.
man could not be obedient to even a single command
Adam turned on God
What was the sin of Adam in the Garden? He ate from the tree that god told him not to eat from. This was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Before eating from this tree, Adam could not know good from evil, therefore he could not know that disobeying was wrong. Adam could not know he was sinning.

Also, why does Adam disobeying god have anything to do with me? If Adam sinned (which he could not have, because he could not knowingly choose between good and evil), Adam is responsible. If I rob a bank, my children will not go to jail. If my grandfather committed murder, I am not put on trial. Holding someone else responsible for the transgressions of another is immoral.

It was the greatest expression of love God could do to show man. And
man could never save himself or appreciate the sacrifice until after the fact.
The greatest expression would have just been to forgive, instead of demanding a bloody death for someone. Substitutionary atonement is immoral, as well. The crucifixion was punishing one person for someone else's crime.

Hell was never intended for mankind. It was set up for Satan and his Angels
who broke in open rebellion in heaven.
So now we finally get to why hell is needed. It's for the fallen angels. So why does god send people there?

[August]

http://home.comcast.net/%7Erdsterling/pwpimages/indiannajonesihatenazis.jpg

[ZeeWolf]

http://home.comcast.net/%7Erdsterling/pwpimages/indiannajonesihatenazis.jpg

Boy I really care - honest!

[ZeeWolf]

Uh huh.

Holding someone else responsible for the transgressions of another is immoral.


Could you tell me your bases for your morality?

[August]

Boy I really care - honest!

You ought to. :yep:

[razark]

Could you tell me your bases for your morality?
My personal basis for morality, or the origins of human morality in general?

Personally, empathy for other beings, along with the teachings of my parents and other respected members of society.

In general, evolution and learned behavior from emerging society.

I'm not personally well versed on the subject, but it's on my list of things to look into.

[ZeeWolf]

Could you tell me your bases for your morality?

[razark]

Could you tell me your bases for your morality?
I did.
Personally, empathy for other beings, along with the teachings of my parents and other respected members of society.

[ZeeWolf]

I did.

So it's subjective to the influence of mankind ie the ever changing respected
members of a constantly changing society etc.

Do you believe in any absolutes in your morality?

[Sailor Steve]

Does he need to? I believe in absolute freedom, so long as it harms no one else or interferes with their own freedom. You can attribute it to whom you like, but even with no God it's still there. The claim that without God there is no morality hinges upon the belief in God in the first place.

Morality is a fact of life, as is immorality. What we find immoral varies, and seems to be dependent on what the person writing the lesson considers moral. You seem to consider yourself moral, yet you let hate dominate your outlook. As I've said, anyone can claim to be Christian, but whether the claim is true can only be known by their fruits, and yours seem to be somewhat sour.

[razark]

So it's subjective to the influence of mankind ie the ever changing respected
members of a constantly changing society etc.
Yes. Much as slavery was once considered acceptable (such as in the bible), or forcing a woman to marry her rapist (the bible again), or sacrificing your daughter for victory in battle (any guesses on that one, kids?) but these are now considered to be unacceptable.

Hrm. That could be parsed badly. To add clarity: The morals of a society are changing as society changes. My personal morals may vary throughout my life, but not as widely as a society's throughout that society's life.

Do you believe in any absolutes in your morality?
Yes. For example: Don't molest children.


Do you consider slavery, forcing a woman to marry her rapist, sacrificing your daughter, planting two types of crops in one field, wearing clothing woven of more than one type of fiber, or treating women as property to be immoral?

[ZeeWolf]

Yes. Much as slavery was once considered acceptable (such as in the bible), or forcing a woman to marry her rapist (the bible again), or sacrificing your daughter for victory in battle (any guesses on that one, kids?) but these are now considered to be unacceptable.

Hrm. That could be parsed badly. To add clarity: The morals of a society are changing as society changes. My personal morals may vary throughout my life, but not as widely as a society's throughout that society's life.


Yes. For example: Don't molest children.


Do you consider slavery, forcing a woman to marry her rapist, sacrificing your daughter, planting two types of crops in one field, wearing clothing woven of more than one type of fiber, or treating women as property to be immoral?

Let's stay on the issue of your moralities foundation a little longer.

You Judge the Holy God of the universe as immoral and stand in judgement of the Holy Laws of Moses and you wonder why God sends people to hell?
Well you say you have some absolutes that's good. But don't you see your
absolutes are already under assault. The whole word of God will be considered
immoral when the accepted morality is bound to a constantly
changing foundation. And the bad news is you have no power to resist.
It is slowly pulling you down with it.
You obviously considered Christ already. You have already heard the Gospel
of Christ, because I laid it out for you. My job as a Christian is fulfilled.
Set before you now is life and death. Do not take this lightly choose life.

[razark]

You Judge the Holy God of the universe as immoral and stand in judgement of the Holy Laws of Moses and you wonder why God sends people to hell?
No, I judge the book that makes these claims. I can no more judge your god than I can judge Darth Vader, Santa Claus, or King Arthur.

Do not take this lightly choose life.
As I said before, it's not a choice.


Do you consider slavery, forcing a woman to marry her rapist, executing a woman for being raped, sacrificing your daughter, planting two types of crops in one field, wearing clothing woven of more than one type of fiber, stoning unruly children, genocide, or eating shellfish to be immoral?

[ZeeWolf]

No, I judge the book that makes these claims. I can no more judge your god than I can judge Darth Vader, Santa Claus, or King Arthur.


As I said before, it's not a choice.


Do you consider slavery, forcing a woman to marry her rapist, executing a woman for being raped, sacrificing your daughter, planting two types of crops in one field, wearing clothing woven of more than one type of fiber, stoning unruly children, genocide, or eating shellfish to be immoral?

Look razark I am not going to argue about what you said. You obviously
have it figured out, so you deal with it, without me.

[razark]

Look razark I am not going to argue about what you said. You obviously
have it figured out, so you deal with it, without me.
No, I don't have it figured out. You are the one claiming to hold all the answers. I simply make my way through each situation as it comes, which is all any of us can really do.

You are allowed to examine the source of my morality, but when I ask you to speak about yours, you avoid the question. If we cannot examine the basis of your morality, why should we accept any position you put forth?

Goodnight.

[CCIP]

Funny, you were very keen on arguing with everything he said up to that point.

[Krauter]

Look if you do not like or except what I say that's fine but you name call
personal attacks are out of line.
I am fully aware how terrifying it can be (to some) to side or even give a hint of agreement
with someone with a minority view, but to over react with a personal attack in order to show
no one thinks you agree with me is to be expected when you dare to stand up for your beliefs

Hey I'm fine with name calling as long as I don't sound like some Nazi, Holocaust denying retard who can't take a look at history, nor see the phallacy in his words. Fine by me.

[Krauter]

You are allowed to examine the source of my morality, but when I ask you to speak about yours, you avoid the question. If we cannot examine the basis of your morality, why should we accept any position you put forth?

Goodnight.

This x 1000

[Gerald]

This thread content, are in part so far from what it was about from the very beginning ...is it so difficult to stick to the topic.

[Jimbuna]

This thread content, are in part so far from what it was about from the very beginning ...is it so difficult to stick to the topic.

Well you posted the topic and it is after all GT

[Gerald]

So you think the responsibility lies on me, what some choose to post, such a reasoning I do not buy,but I know GT is GT...this is not a lament about being unhappy, but pure statement.

[Jimbuna]

I did not say that nor did I use the word responsibilty.

What I did mean though is that you were the original poster....fact.

You should know from your experience here what pattern often develops in GT....debatable perhaps.

So if anything, I'm a little suprised you ask the question at the end of your post.

I meant nothing more or nothing less.

You got out of wrong side of bed this morning....you lacking sleep? :DL

[Gerald]

I did not say that nor did I use the word responsibilty.

What I did mean though is that you were the original poster....fact.

You should know from your experience here what pattern often develops in GT....debatable perhaps.

So if anything, I'm a little suprised you ask the question at the end of your post.

I meant nothing more or nothing less.

You got out of wrong side of bed this morning....you lacking sleep? :DL No, but has a lot to do and I do not blame you for something that has the above to do, but the threads ... I'm pretty familiar with because they are usually closed because of trolls, who have other intentions,instead of one of us, :yep:

[Jimbuna]

That is one of the reasons I sit and study :03:

[Gerald]

I know,:DL

[Jimbuna]

I know,:DL

Good...you'll live longer that way :O:

[Gerald]

Good...you'll live longer that way :O: Thank you for those words, :up:

[Jimbuna]

A grand old Geordie colloquial saying.

[mookiemookie]

http://home.comcast.net/%7Erdsterling/pwpimages/indiannajonesihatenazis.jpg

:03:

[Gerald]

That would be grand fun.

[Betonov]

Damn, 4 pages since I last responded on this thread.

How many have accused me of being gay, for defending their rights (and knowing one) :hmmm: Don't want to re-read everything

[Hottentot]

How many have accused me of being gay, for defending their rights (and knowing one) :hmmm: Don't want to re-read everything

None as far as I noticed when browsing trough the thread half a sleep.

Does it make you feel better if I question your orientation? I can include Bible quotes too.

[Betonov]

Does it make you feel better if I question your orientation? I can include Bible quotes too.

If you'd know my women, you'd question why the hell am I still straight :haha:

[Hottentot]

You are maybe too buddy-like to them? Have you tried starting a new relationship with these words:

"Hello aesthetically pleasing sex object. This room here is called K-I-T-C-H-E-N."

[Betonov]

"Hello aesthetically pleasing sex object. This room here is called K-I-T-C-H-E-N."

That might work

[Dowly]

You are maybe too buddy-like to them? Have you tried starting a new relationship with these words:

"Hello aesthetically pleasing sex object. This room here is called K-I-T-C-H-E-N."

LMAO :rotfl2:

[Sailor Steve]

LMAO :rotfl2:
HEY! Just because no woman can resist a ferrett doesn't mean you have to rub it in for the rest of us! :O:

Though I do like the sound of "Aesthetically pleasing sex object."

[Krauter]

"Hello aesthetically pleasing sex object. This room here is called K-I-T-C-H-E-N."

:har:

[Jimbuna]

If you'd know my women, you'd question why the hell am I still straight :haha:

Am I being overly presumtious if I presume you meant 'single' or 'straight and single'? :)

[Gerald]

@Betonov! Do you still have that horse girl by your side, :hmmm:

[Betonov]

@Betonov! Do you still have that horse girl by your side, :hmmm:

Refer to her as the horse riding girl, horse girl might give people here the wrong idea :DL Especially Jim

She's been written off a long time ago. Called her for a drink, she started serving me the ususal course of excuses: ''I have to study, the horses need care, bla bla bla bla... I'll call you'' of course you will :shifty:
Are women still that dumb that they think that we dont know ''I'll call you'' means ''bugger off''

I'll work on the current brunette, my mountaneering buddy. She's a tough nut to crack, but at least she loves to hang out with me.
And keep an open eye for anyone else

[Gerald]

Maybe she is good at helping you with your car, a car capable of little else what a horse does, and that it not only eats oats, :DL