Evading destroyers

[phil82]

Hi folks,

I couldn't see any guides for this anywhere but if there is one and someone could point me to it that would be great.

I'm back to SH 4 after a bit of a gap and I'm having a blast playing with RFB. But whenever I try and attack anything with escorts I end up getting curb stomped. I can just about manage to get close enough to get a shot off but once the enemy spot me things go south pretty quickly.

My usual evasion tactics are to crash dive as deep as I can and then inch along with silent running, but the destroyers always find me and depth charge me to buggery. Clearly I'm doing it wrong but I'm not sure what else I could do. I know it depends on the situation but some general tips would be greatly appreciated.

Also I posted some questions about U boats in the U-boat add on forum but no one ever seems to go in there, so if someone could have a look at them then that would be great :DL

One question that is relevant to Fleet boats is, What's the spotting range of enemy ships, in the day and at night, if I'm runining on the surface?

Cheers

[WernherVonTrapp]

Hi folks,

...I can just about manage to get close enough to get a shot off but once the enemy spot me things go south pretty quickly...

...One question that is relevant to Fleet boats is, What's the spotting range of enemy ships, in the day and at night, if I'm runining on the surface?

CheersI probably shouldn't be trying to answer this right now since I just awoke from a deep sleep and trying to think (for me right now) is tantamount to finding a book in a vast darkened library using a birthday candle as my source of light.
Anyway, as far as spotting distance goes, that's quite a general question, and that which depends upon a number of variables. During daylight, those variables include the presence or absence of fog, whether the sun is behind you or in front of you and whether you boat is bladed or broadside to the target, not to mention how low you're sitting in the water.
At night, the fog question still stands along with the presence or absence of moonlight and again, whether you're bladed or broadside to the target as well as depth in the water. And, these are merely the visual aspects to account for. Being a sub sim, sound has a great influence also.

Is your crew at general quarters on approach and/or silent running engaged? As soon as you fire a torp, the crew automatically starts the very noisy process of reloading, but Silent Running will prevent them from reloading until your at a safe distance. What is your angle of approach and departure? If you're approaching underwater at anything above 1/3 speed, your chance of remaining undetected is increasingly diminished with every yard closer to the target. Is your periscope always raised for everyone to see or do you expose it only for the few seconds necessary to adjust your approach and attack settings? The bottom line is, there's no easy answer, but this should make you aware of some basics that you must always take into account whenever you conduct your attack/escape. Only time and repetition will sharpen your skills to second nature status.
Hope this helps some.
Oh yeah, welcome abroad mate.:salute:

[Sailor Steve]

Don't go as deep as you can. Go to 200 feet and Silent Running. When you hear their propellors overhead they're close enough that the can't hear you anymore. At that point go to flank speed, turn hard one way or the other and drop 50 feet or more. Then straighten out and go back to silent running. This increases the chance that they will miss. After doing it a couple of times creep back up to 200 feet so you have room to do it again.

Just for realism's sake I always disable Auto-Reload, because they didn't dare reload torpedoes while running from an enemy, since the steep dive angles could cause the ton of steel and explosives to break loose from the hoist chains.

[Diopos]

Number of DDs is also a factor. Depends on version and mod (of course).
Up to three DDs on actual ASW duty seems to be workable. Four is a battle. Five you're probably doomed.:hmmm:

.

[EricW]

Don't go as deep as you can. Go to 200 feet and Silent Running. When you hear their propellors overhead they're close enough that the can't hear you anymore. At that point go to flank speed, turn hard one way or the other and drop 50 feet or more. Then straighten out and go back to silent running. This increases the chance that they will miss. After doing it a couple of times creep back up to 200 feet so you have room to do it again.

Just for realism's sake I always disable Auto-Reload, because they didn't dare reload torpedoes while running from an enemy, since the steep dive angles could cause the ton of steel and explosives to break loose from the hoist chains.

This......you can dodge 'em for a long time. I only go really deep when there's big waves......(high wind speed) and their active/passive sonar is mostly worthless. You can tell as the pings get fainter and fainter as you go deeper.

One thing to remember, when you hear the pinging....DON'T panic. It takes a while for them to zero in on you. You can tell when it goes to shortscale(double time) that they have an idea where you are....and they will do that for a while before they rush over and drop. You just have to listen and wait til they do, then do what Sailor Steve says. Don't be afraid to get loud for a minute if it will get you out of the way. Its a marathon, not a sprint, you have to outlast them.

One thing that can SUCK though.....you can do this for 2-3 hours realtime and STILL get sunk eventually.

[TBear]

well. Right now im east of aussy land and late 1944. For the last 3 hours i have been pounden from air, sea. Doing the basic, 200ft, evede, drop, evade, clip, etc......

I am not a happy Japanese submariner right now. This could be the one engagement that send this fine sub dooooooooown uuuuunder......:damn:


FOR THE EMPORER :up:

LTbear:arrgh!:

[phil82]

Thanks for the replies guys. Some great info there


Anyway, as far as spotting distance goes, that's quite a general question, and that which depends upon a number of variables... Being a sub sim, sound has a great influence also.

So for arguements sake, if conditions are totally calm and it's day light, can a destroyer see me pretty much when I see it? Presumably a frieghter has worse visibility? Is there a good rule of thumb? Like don't get within 5 miles of another ship in the day time?

What is your angle of approach and departure? If you're approaching underwater at anything above 1/3 speed, your chance of remaining undetected is increasingly diminished with every yard closer to the target.Good tip, I kind of figured that if I'm underwater they can't spot me, that explains alot.

The bottom line is, there's no easy answer, but this should make you aware of some basics that you must always take into account whenever you conduct your attack/escape.

Oh yeah, welcome abroad mate.:salute:Lots of stuff to think about there, Cheers for the help :DL


Don't go as deep as you can. Go to 200 feet and Silent Running. When you hear their propellors overhead they're close enough that the can't hear you anymore. At that point go to flank speed, turn hard one way or the other and drop 50 feet or more. Then straighten out and go back to silent running. This increases the chance that they will miss. After doing it a couple of times creep back up to 200 feet so you have room to do it again.

Okay that makes sense, I tend to drop like a stone and then sit there. I'll try your way next time.



One thing to remember, when you hear the pinging....DON'T panic.

Thats exactly what I do, I'm like a deer in headlights!

One thing that can SUCK though.....you can do this for 2-3 hours realtime and STILL get sunk eventually.As far as I can remember, there used to be a bug where the game got messed up if you saved under water. Is that still a problem cos I don't often get to play for more than one or two hours at a time and from what I can tell using time compression in this situation is suicide.

Cheers Fellas

[Sailor Steve]

One thing to remember, when you hear the pinging....DON'T panic. It takes a while for them to zero in on you.
:yep:

Just because they're pinging doesn't mean they're getting a return signal. You don't need to panic until you can hear their propellors through the hull.

So for arguements sake, if conditions are totally calm and it's day light, can a destroyer see me pretty much when I see it? Presumably a frieghter has worse visibility? Is there a good rule of thumb? Like don't get within 5 miles of another ship in the day time?
No. SH4 has a 20 km (12.43) mile visual limit. You'll see them at about 12 miles. They won't see you until about 8 km, or 5 miles.

Don't count on that, though. There may be variables.

Okay that makes sense, I tend to drop like a stone and then sit there. I'll try your way next time.
That shows the disparity between real life and game life. In real life they couldn't just sit underwater, unless they were on the bottom. Imperfect trim and even small leaks would cause the boat to start sinking, necessitating either movement or pumps, both of which make some noise. Pumps make more.

As far as I can remember, there used to be a bug where the game got messed up if you saved under water. Is that still a problem cos I don't often get to play for more than one or two hours at a time and from what I can tell using time compression in this situation is suicide.
Underwater is its own problem, but the bigger problem here is that you can't save near other ships, and if your not near enemy ships there's no reason to be underwater. Saving with other ships around causes them to go haywire in unpredictable ways.

[magic452]

A deer in the headlights has a much better chance of survival than you do if you are attacking in clear weather and calm seas.

Submarine warfare is a game of stealth , cunning, patients and surprise in daylight and calm seas you give all that away. Plot the convoy's course and track it till dark thirty.

Approach from ahead and a 70° angle to it's course. This puts you clear of the lead and flanking escorts and gives them both the smallest angle on your boat. Silent running, periscope depth and speed at one knot or less (the game will do 1/4 knots) Plan your attack so that you are about 2,000 to 3,000 yards off the convoy's course. If you can't shoot from this distance with a 70° AoB either learn or die. If you set up a good attack sinking ships is almost easy. Learn how to use the steadimeter and all the different constant bearing methods and use the best tool for the job at hand. (Rockin Robins bag of tricks thread).

You have both speed and stealth on your side so use them to attack on your terms.

Don't be greedy, pick out the best two targets and shoot them (one high speed the other at low) and than get the heck out of Dodge. 2,800 to 3,200 yards is best for this as you can get near simultaneous hits on two targets and they don't have time to take evasive action.

Do an end around and repeat the above. You can take out an entire convoy and never even hear a depth charge.

If I'm attacking with bow tubes I back out instead of turning around, you can clear the area much faster. I changed the telegraph settings to back 1/3 at one knot, back 2/3 to 3 knots.
3 1/4 knots or 100 RPM is pretty silent, at least in TMO, and you can use it once you get a little distance on the escort.


In bad (good for you) weather all bets are off. Heavy seas are your best friend and rain or fog are his brothers. You have much more freedom in bad weather and it is much easier to make a get away so you can get in closer and really mix it up.

The best way to evade escorts is to avoid escorts or at least having them find you.

You will get caught at some time or another and the advice Sailor Steve and EricW gave is top notch. Keep changing things up and don't stay at one depth too long, use flank speed only when they are dropping DC's for about 20 or so seconds then cut speed and coast. Give about 20° or so rudder at flank to change course, full rudder will slow you down and you can't coast as far.

DO NOT use flank to get deep order max depth and three knots as soon as you fire your last fish. "Run silent, run deep" as they say. If they find me I'll work my way back up to about 250 feet and work from there.

The fastest way to die is attacking in shallow water. You gotta be able to shoot form 3,500 to 4,000 yards or you don't stand much chance. You might pull it off once or twice but you can't make a living at it.

Good luck and good hunting

Magic

[phil82]

:yep:

No. SH4 has a 20 km (12.43) mile visual limit. You'll see them at about 12 miles. They won't see you until about 8 km, or 5 miles.

Don't count on that, though. There may be variables.

That makes sense then, so if I stay at roughly 7 miles they'll not see me, good to know.


Underwater is its own problem, but the bigger problem here is that you can't save near other ships, and if your not near enemy ships there's no reason to be underwater. Saving with other ships around causes them to go haywire in unpredictable ways.I think I'm going to have to risk it, but thanks for the heads up.

Thanks in general theres a lot of good advice in your post :DL


Submarine warfare is a game of stealth , cunning, patients and surprise in daylight and calm seas you give all that away. Plot the convoy's course and track it till dark thirty.

Thats my problem right there, I'm always worried I'm going to lose them and I end up getting spotted.


... If you can't shoot from this distance with a 70° AoB either learn or die. If you set up a good attack sinking ships is almost easy. Learn how to use the steadimeter and all the different constant bearing methods and use the best tool for the job at hand. (Rockin Robins bag of tricks thread).Working out attacks is about the one thing I can do! When I used to play I learned from Werner Sobe's videos and Rockin Robin's Dick O'Kane method and I'm still pretty good at that. I just tend to get deadied way before I reach that stage :DL


3 1/4 knots or 100 RPM is pretty silent, at least in TMO, and you can use it once you get a little distance on the escort.I've seen a couple of posts mentioning rpm, is there something in the game that tells you or do you just get a feel for what speed equates to what rpm?


Give about 20° or so rudder at flank to change course, full rudder will slow you down and you can't coast as far.There again, I've been giving it full lock and wondering why I basically stop moving. It never even occurred to me that they would've modelled stuff like this.


Good luck and good hunting

MagicThanks for the tips. I thought I knew this game pretty well, turns out I know nothing.

[magic452]

I've seen a couple of posts mentioning rpm, is there something in the game that tells you or do you just get a feel for what speed equates to what rpm?

There are tachs in the control room, pan the camera to the right and you will see them on the aft bulkhead. I don't play RFB so that advice may only apply to TMO.

Patients is the key to a good attack, set up an intercept well ahead and let them come to you. Put yourself in the right spot at the right time and the rest is pretty easy. For me that is the real fun in the game. I tracked convoys for half a day or more just to get the right set up.

Patients is also the the best quality in evading escorts. Sitting in the control room or the sonar station and tracking DDs trying to kill you can really get the old ticker pumping. But you gotta have patients.

Magic

[TBear]

was tired when making last reply. Here is my way. (i sail jap sub so cant go realy deep 120 m max on a good day)

Ooooh noes here he comes.

Flank speed down to 80m turning right into him. Normaly i aim for a head on attack :03: me passing underneath him af full speed. Not even the vet DD`s will drop DC`s on that initial pass. When passing i get a fix on hes turn, (sonar) drop decoys and turn 90 degrees the opesite direction, this buy you abit more time (longer turn for him to get sonar onto you)

Then silent running and listining (sonar) Normaly he will turn into the decoys realise hes mistake and begin turning the other way (kinda like an S) then he need one more turn to get onto you. When he begins turn (use sonar) you make another 90 degree turn into your old bearing this bring him on a wrong turn behind you.

Then i dive to 90m stil silent running. With luck he lost you by now. Everytime you can hear he turns, flank speed 5 sec silent again (pushing faster forward)

The rest above have given a pretty ok way with the YO YO up and down thing. But single DD i use above 90% of the time.

Practice.
Sonar, so you can tell when hes bow or stearn on you, that is the real life savior.

PS.
someone mentioned Rudder, remember that one to. More rudder = less speed in turn

LTbear

[phil82]

A quick update for everyone that helped me. Last night I took on a convoy, got a clean shot at a merchant (three duds though :damn:), and then managed to evade three destroyers! I snuck out from underneath them, got to 7 miles out and then surfaced to watch them slink off back to the convoy.

Thanks for the great advice everyone :D

[Sailor Steve]

Good job! :rock:

[CptChacal]

Very informative thread.
How much of the following is actually modeled and used in SH4?

that's quite a general question, and that which depends upon a number of variables. During daylight, those variables include the presence or absence of fog, whether the sun is behind you or in front of you and whether you boat is bladed or broadside to the target, not to mention how low you're sitting in the water.
At night, the fog question still stands along with the presence or absence of moonlight and again, whether you're bladed or broadside to the target as well as depth in the water. And, these are merely the visual aspects to account for. Being a sub sim, sound has a great influence also.

[WernherVonTrapp]

Very informative thread.
How much of the following is actually modeled and used in SH4?As far as I'm aware, all of it.:yep:

[MattM1121]

I'm using TMO 2.5 and I'm approaching a convoy of 6 merchant and 2 destroyers.

I was ready to give up the game. I couldn't understand why I was SO bad at attacking this convoy.

After reading this thread I found that I was doing everything wrong.

It's a beautiful day with calm seas and I'm about 3500 yards away with my periscope up.

After this thread I'm eager to try it again. This is a great thread. I love it. Just what the doc ordered.

[Armistead]

If I'm playing serious, I want as many factors in my favor as possible. Remember, the game sets values for each sensor, including visuals, if I can't get what I feel is atl east 50% in my favor I wait or don't attack.

Simply, attacking in calm water that is shallow is asking for death in TMO.
If I think the group will stay in shallow water for days or to port, I wait for a night surface attack from long range, if it's a dark night with no moon and fog, I'll go in closer.

As far as I can tell the only moon light value is size of moon, not where it is in the sky, so I don't worry if the moon is behind me in game.

The biggest factor in your favor for submerged attack is water conditions, in rough seas you can about have at it and should always be able to escape.

If you look in the sim file, you can see what factors and values you're dealing with.

[AI detection]
Lost contact time=90 ;[min]
[Visual]
Detection time=0.5 ;[s] min detection time.
Sensitivity=0.1 ;(0..1) min detection threshold double detection time.
Fog factor=1.0 ;[>=0]
Light factor=2.0 ;1.7 ;[>=0]
Waves factor=1.5 ;[>=0]
Enemy surface factor=30 ;50 ;[m2]
Enemy speed factor=8 ;25 ;[kt]
Thermal Layer Signal Attenuation=5.0

[Radar]
Detection time=1 ;[s]
Sensitivity=0.01 ;(0..1)
Waves factor=1.0 ;[>=0]
Enemy surface factor=5.0 ;[m2]
Thermal Layer Signal Attenuation=1.0
[Hydrophone]
Detection time=1 ;[s]
Sensitivity=0.20 ;(0..1)
Height factor=0 ;[m]
Waves factor=0.5 ;1.0 ;[>=0]
Speed factor=15 ;[kt]
Noise factor=0.35 ;0.25 ;1.0 ;[>=0]
Thermal Layer Signal Attenuation=2.0 ;[>0], 1 means no signal reduction, 3 equals signal reduction to 33%

[Sonar]
Detection time=5 ;[s]
Sensitivity=0.05 ;(0..1)
Waves factor=1.0 ;[>=0]
Speed factor=20 ;[kt]
Enemy surface factor=200 ;[m2]
Lose time=30 ;[s]
Thermal Layer Signal Attenuation=3.0 ;[>0], 1 means no signal reduction, 5 equals signal reduction to 20%