Book wanted

[Herr-Berbunch]

Sorry, not naval.

Can anyone recommend a good book about the Spanish Civil War? Please don't just Google some, I'd like personal recommendations.

Quite a few things I've read in the last couple of years have referenced, or been partially involving with the conflict with the International Brigade and the Condor Legion amongst others. Now I'd like to read a book specifically on the subject with little or no deviation elsewhere.

Musts are: factual, interesting, anecdotal/humerous (where possible). Oh, and in English! :D

I await your replies, and thanks in advance,

HB

[Gerald]

I can deliver something tomorrow, :yep:

[Jimbuna]

I've read this one in my local library reference section....mainly first-hand accounts and very informative IMHO.

Here is a link with the opportunity to 'look inside' the book:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Heroic-Voices-Spanish-Civil-International/dp/1847734693/ref=sr_1_6?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1314722670&sr=1-6#_

Of course, if you did decide to purchase the book you could use the SS link to Amazon.co.uk :sunny:

[Randomizer]

I have read The Spanish Civil War by Hugh Thomas, for a long time perhaps the most complete English language single volume. I have an older edition written when Franco still rules (he apparently had it banned in Spain although he allowed Prof Thomas access to government archives). It's now in its fourth edition and has been updated with new info several times since it was first published.

Anthony Beevor's The Battle for Spain is on my to buy list, I have a number of his books and am generally pleased with the quality and extent of his research and soundness of his conclusions but have not yet read the book.

Lots of new scholarship out there as the Civil War generation passes away but as you note, much is memoirs or popular subject exclusive.

I'd probably go with the latest edition of Thomas.

[Penguin]

You may have already read it, but I can recommend one by my favourite author: Homage to Catalonia, by George Orwell.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by deviation, it certainly is subjective, as he fought for the Republicans and it is written from his POV, so this goes more among Jim's book.
Although subjective it sticks to the facts and covers also the ugly experiences he had with the inner-republican fighting. It definitely lead to an overhaul of his political views and led to the writing of Animal Farm.

Oh, and I would definitely check out Randomizer's Beevor recommendation. I haven't read his book about Spain, but if it is like his Stalingrad book it is worth a peek. In this book, Beevor tried to cover both sides, which he managed quite well, so this could be the book if you are looking for a more objective general overview about all sides.

[Randomizer]

Homage to Catalonia is riveting but is (in my opinion) tainted as a narrative with Orwell's deep cynicism and disillusionment with Republican infighting. Although based on a diary he kept in theatre, it was written after the civil war when his contempt for the political Left was almost equal to his hatred of all things fascist. An immensely valuable insight into an Englishman's experience with one of the International Brigades but very narrow in scope and extremely biased. Worth reading as a source but not as the source.

[Herr-Berbunch]

Thanks guys - all noted and I'll see what my local library has in. :yeah:

By deviation I meant that I wanted the whole book to be reference to the war, and not visit other places at other times like some autobiography (for instance Dennis Sefton Delmers excellent autobiographical books (Trial Sinister and Black Boomerang) covering when he was a journalist during the war along with living in Germany/France before and Black Propaganda activities during WWII).

[Penguin]

Oke, me know underständ! :)
I wasn't sure if you were looking for something objective and thus not wanting to read stuff from biased sources.

@Randomizer:
You can already see Orwell's beginning disillusion in the second part of Wigan's Pier, where he slags off the polical left. He descibes them as naive, pale vegetarians, disattached form the problems of the working man, :hmmm: seems like not too much has changed... - says the vegetarian, lefty Penguin ;).
One little nitpicking: Orwell fought among the POUM together with Spanish fighters, he was supposed to fight in the International Brigades later, but as far as I remember he didn't join them as he fled from Spain at this time.


And damn you, Herr B. - now my interest in the Spanish civil war is fueled again, my purse will curse you! :O:

[Herr-Berbunch]

And damn you, Herr B. - now my interest in the Spanish civil war is fueled again, my purse will curse you! :O:

Sorry :D

I've not seen much at all on the subject before, but every little glimpse I get it seems more and more intruiging. I am of course getting slightly ahead of myself here - I've nearly finished Das Boot, and still have a dozen or so books to read before anything else! And I'm not the quickest reader :cry:.

[Penguin]

Sorry :D

I've not seen much at all on the subject before, but every little glimpse I get it seems more and more intruiging. I am of course getting slightly ahead of myself here - I've nearly finished Das Boot, and still have a dozen or so books to read before anything else! And I'm not the quickest reader :cry:.

Oh yeah, this is my problem, too. I just moved, so I put all the books I still have to read next to each other. They already fill one 80cm shelf yet, will probably find some more when I finishied unpacking all the boxes. Too few time to read, but too many interests to stop getting new books... :wah:

So after reading Das Boot it's time to read it in German :D. However I don't know if they ever find the way to the Bahnhof in the German edition....:03:

[Herr-Berbunch]

So after reading Das Boot it's time to read it in German :D. However I don't know if they ever find the way to the Bahnhof in the German edition....:03:

What do you mean? :hmmm: Even at the height of my German-speaking it wasn't good enough to read a poster, nevermind a book!
http://www.gonemovies.com/www/MyWebFilms/Oorlog/BootLuchtAanval.jpg

[Jimbuna]

Not sure if it's worth a mention but my late father was aboard the steamship Cydonia when she was bombed in Barcelona Harbour during the Spanish Civil War.

[Randomizer]

Oke, me know underständ! :)
@Randomizer:
...
One little nitpicking: Orwell fought among the POUM together with Spanish fighters, he was supposed to fight in the International Brigades later, but as far as I remember he didn't join them as he fled from Spain at this time.

You're right of course and I stand corrected, thanks for setting the record straight. Have not read Homage to Catalonia for some time and that's what happens when one relies on a flawed memory.

The hardest thing in researching the war in Spain was getting the alphabet soup of the political factions down correctly!

This thread has brought the Spanish War back into my sights as well so I now have Beevor's book ordered from the local library.

[Penguin]

What do you mean? :hmmm: Even at the height of my German-speaking it wasn't good enough to read a poster, nevermind a book!


Just pulling your leg. I would never even try to learn the grammar mess that German is if it would not have been breastfed to me. And I wanted to use the word Bahnhof, thought it is your favourite ;)
Btw, I find the German in the "Das Boot" film very hard to understand, as much is spoken very quickly and/or mumbled, must be a mess for a non-native speaker.


The hardest thing in researching the war in Spain was getting the alphabet soup of the political factions down correctly!

This thread has brought the Spanish War back into my sights as well so I now have Beevor's book ordered from the local library.

oh yes, the fractions are all P-something :DL had a hard time when talking to a Spanish guy, who spoke little English, about the war , my drunken state certainly didn't help "pouf puum paull", :haha:

Looking forward to hear a judgement from you about Beevor's book, I am still in the Winter War atm ;)

[Herr-Berbunch]

And I wanted to use the word Bahnhof, thought it is your favourite ;)


It is :yep:

Der Bahnhof ist die zweite Straße auf der rechten Seite. :o

[Sailor Steve]

Just pulling your leg. I would never even try to learn the grammar mess that German is if it would not have been breastfed to me.
:rotfl2:

Maybe you'll appreciate this quote from the late, great Mark Twain:
"Since long, my gentlemen, have I the passionate longing nursed a speech on German to hold, but one has me not permitted."
http://www.langeslag.org/teaching/german/German_05_Mark_Twain.pdf

[Penguin]

It is :yep:

Der Bahnhof ist die zweite Straße auf der rechten Seite. :o

This is uncannily true from where I sit... add one left turn on the second street and you're there....:o


:rotfl2:

Maybe you'll appreciate this quote from the late, great Mark Twain:
"Since long, my gentlemen, have I the passionate longing nursed a speech on German to hold, but one has me not permitted."
http://www.langeslag.org/teaching/german/German_05_Mark_Twain.pdf


Ha, this is great! :haha: I didn't even know that Twain visited Europe, nor that he spoke German.
I read the original, it was much better, as the translator did a literal translation, where his right sentences appear like he spoke them wrong at his speech. He actually used the German language in a nearly perfect way, only some minor flaws identify his English language background.

Here is something for you, I didn't wanted to quote it till the next immigration debate, but this is too good to hold back:

Benjamin Franklin about the Germans:

Those who come hither are generally of the most ignorant Stupid Sort of their own Nation, and as Ignorance is often attended with Credulity when Knavery would mislead it, and with Suspicion when Honesty would set it right; and as few of the English understand the German Language, and so cannot address them either from the Press or Pulpit, 'tis almost impossible to remove any prejudices they once entertain. Their own Clergy have very little influence over the people; who seem to take an uncommon pleasure in abusing and discharging the Minister on every trivial occasion.

Not being used to Liberty, they know not how to make a modest use of it; and as Kolben says of the young Hottentots, that they are not esteemed men till they have shewn their manhood by beating their mothers, so these seem to think themselves not free, till they can feel their liberty in abusing and insulting their Teachers. Thus they are under no restraint of Ecclesiastical Government; They behave, however, submissively enough at present to the Civil Government which I wish they may continue to do: For I remember when they modestly declined intermeddling in our Elections, but now they come in droves, and carry all before them, except in one or two Counties;

Few of their children in the Country learn English; they import many Books from Germany; and of the six printing houses in the Province, two are entirely German, two half German half English, and but two entirely English; They have one German News-paper, and one half German. Advertisements intended to be general are now printed in Dutch and English; the Signs in our Streets have inscriptions in both languages, and in some places only German: They begin of late to make all their Bonds nad other legal Writings in their own Language, which (though I think it ought not to be) are allowed good in our Courts, where the German Business so encreases that there is continual need of Interpreters; and I suppose in a few years they will be also necessary in the Assembly, to tell one half of our Legislators what the other half say; In short unless the stream of their importation could be turned from this to other colonies, as you very judiciously propose, they will soon so out number us, that all the advantages we have will not in My Opinion be able to preserve our language, and even our Government will become precarious


source: http://www.historycarper.com/resources/twobf2/letter18.htm

[Tribesman]

You can already see Orwell's beginning disillusion....
Penguin, wouldn't you say that was emerging in Aspidistra before Wigan

[Herr-Berbunch]

This is becoming a smaller world - Aspidistra was the name of one of the transmitters used by the aforementioned Dennis Sefton Delmer during his Black Propaganda times :D

[Penguin]

Penguin, wouldn't you say that was emerging in Aspidistra before Wigan

You got me there, as I haven't read this one yet. :oops: It was one of the less printed books here. At the time I read most of his stuff, the hunger for books was in deep contrast to my finances, so I rwas dependent on the library.
Still have his BBC transcripts to read on my shelf, but I found a used copy of Aspidistra at amazon marketplace. You own me 6€! :stare:

You can work off the money by giving an elaboration, what in Aspidistra represents Orwell's emerging disillusion.:DL

[Randomizer]

Bump...

Penguin wrote:
Looking forward to hear a judgement from you about Beevor's book, I am still in the Winter War atm
Am about one-third of the way through The Battle for Spain. So far and based on my recollections of Thomas' The Spanish Civil War, the latter goes into more detail as to causes and the turbulent political climate contributing to the war. The former however is far more readable and descriptive and the maps are infinitely better than the first mentioned book. Thomas is dry to the point of being pedantic but am finding Beevor difficult to put down.

Assessment so far, if you intend to read only one book on the subject, you probably would be best served going with The Battle for Spain.

[Penguin]

Thanks, I think I'll give Beevor's book a try then :up:. I like a vivid written history book, as long as it sticks to the facts. Some writers just manage to keep the right balance!

[Herr-Berbunch]

Thanks, I think I'll give Beevor's book a try then :up:. I like a vivid written history book, as long as it sticks to the facts. Some writers just manage to keep the right balance!


Me too, thanks all for your input :D