Who, What, Why: How dangerous is firing a gun into the air?

[Gerald]

Libyan rebels have celebrated their advance into Tripoli by firing guns in the air. How hazardous is this?

It is, unarguably, an emphatic way to display one's jubilation.

Shooting an automatic weapon into the sky to signal an occasion one welcomes is a popular practice in much of the world, as the footage of Libyan anti-Gaddafi forces seizing the main square of the capital city has demonstrated.

But it is a potentially fatal activity, which regularly results in the deaths of bystanders.

"These bullets go a long way up when they're fired," says ballistics expert David Dyson. "But you don't know where they're going to land - there's always a chance of them causing serious harm or death."

Examples of fatalities due to celebratory gunfire abound.

Three people in the Philippines died due to stray bullets fired to welcome New Year's Eve 2011.

n 2010 a Turkish bridegroom killed three relatives when he fired an AK-47 at his own wedding. In the same year, Jordan's King Abdullah II ordered his country's authorities to clamp down on the practice after two people were killed and 13 more injured in one incident.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14616491


Note: 22 August 2011 Last updated at 12:19 GMT

[Oberon]

What goes up....

[Gerald]

....coming down

[August]

.....but only at terminal velocity.

[nikimcbee]

Lets go to Iraqi soccer game to find out. I hear when somebody scores a goal, the AKs come out.

Maybe a Raiders game would be closer.:dead:

[Jimbuna]

Lets go to Iraqi soccer game to find out. I hear when somebody scores a goal, the AKs come out.

Maybe a Raiders game would be closer.:dead:

Problem being...the Raiders don't score very often :O:

[Stealhead]

Lets go to Iraqi soccer game to find out. I hear when somebody scores a goal, the AKs come out.

Maybe a Raiders game would be closer.:dead:


Actually the AKs come out after a wedding in Iraq.My brother did two tours over there and until they get used to it the new guys who have never been get antsy on I think it is either Fridays or Saturdays when most weddings are hearing AK shooting in the air is normal(every house hold is allowed one AK or similar long arm.) Of course the bullets could still be deadly if you where in there path I suppose.I am going to assume that they are not using blanks.

Of course during New Years,4th of July and similar events I hear guns going off and I am pretty sure that they are being aimed skywards and I live in rural Florida.Well I know they are not being used safely because I can sometimes hear someone yell out in slurred English "**** yeah" or "Now we can party".

[Sailor Steve]

And here I go again.
Please use language that you would use around your mother. No vulgarities, obscenities, hate speech, or foul language. Do not use *******ing w*rds with aster*cks, that's the same thing as vulgar languge. Express yourself with respect to others.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/faq.php?faq=vb_faq#faq_new_faq_item_language

[Betonov]

There was an incident a few years ago, when at a wedding in Bosnia they fired AK's into the air and shot down a low flying Cesna on aproach to an airstrip. No one was killed luckly, the pilot managed to put the aircraft down safely

[Growler]

Not too many civvies can claim an anti-aircraft kill today.:D

[August]

Bullets dropping out of the sky fall no faster than they would if they were dropped from a 3 story building.

Like a penny dropped from the Empire State building they accelerate to terminal velocity and that's it. At that speed they are not likely to kill anyone.

[Sailor Steve]

What exactly is terminal velocity for a bullet? For a battleship shell it's still supersonic. Of course a bullet doesn't weigh almost a ton, either. Just wondering.

[Tribesman]

What exactly is terminal velocity for a bullet?

Depends entirely on it how heavy it is what size and shape it is and which way it is falling.
A heavy but narrow bullet falling pointy end first will have very little drag and so will achieve a higher terminal velocity than the same bullet falling backwards

Like a penny dropped from the Empire State building they accelerate to terminal velocity and that's it.
two identical pennies dropped from the empire state building can have very different terminal velocities....and that's it

[Penguin]

:hmmm: we had this discussion almost exactly a year ago: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=1463682

I linked a surgeons report there, which states that a falling bullet can indeed kill you: http://ats.ctsnetjournals.org/cgi/content/full/83/1/283

@Steve:

Bullets fired into the air during celebrations return at a speed fast enough to penetrate the skin and cause internal damage to other organs in the path of the migrating bullet. The bullet's velocity required for skin penetration is between 148 and 197 feet per second. A velocity of less than 200 feet per second, which is easily obtained by a celebratory gunfire, is capable of fracturing bone and even causing intracranial penetration [4]. Spent bullets have the capability of reaching up to 600 feet per second during their downfall, and thus they have the ability to inflict damage to multiple body cavities [4]. The larger caliber bullets (ie, .45-caliber) reach a higher terminal velocity compared with the smaller caliber bullets (ie, .30-caliber), because of the proportion of their weight to their diameter [4]. Terminal velocity is difficult to calculate with falling bullets because wind resistance and updrafts can cause a spent bullet to land miles away from the initially fired site [2].

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Bullets dropping out of the sky fall no faster than they would if they were dropped from a 3 story building.

Like a penny dropped from the Empire State building they accelerate to terminal velocity and that's it. At that speed they are not likely to kill anyone.If bullet falls directly downwards then propably but often that is not a case. When people shoot to air they rarely take care that they are shooting exactly upwards. If there is even a little bit angle then bullet flies in arch like artillery shell.

[Tribesman]

If bullet falls directly downwards then propably
No not probably, not at all really.
A bullet that is able to reach its terminal velocity when it travels the equivalent height of three story building will do so, a bullet that travels the same distance but doesn't reach its terminal velocity in that distance will continue to accelerate until it reaches its terminal velocity.
Same as with the Empire State penny, there are too many variables to even consider Augusts two claims as accurate.

[Stealhead]

Unless the bullet was fired at a perfect 90 degree towards the sky then the bullet will travel in a manner that will still make it deadly if someone happens to be in it path.For your statement to be true the barrel would have to a perfect 90 deg upwards something that would be very hard for a person to do without some rigging.Anyone who fires guns in celebration or for what ever reason into the air they are never firing it perfectly 90.

In most photos you will see the person holding the weapon closer to 60 deg that bullet will for 100% certainty kill or injure anyone who should happen to be along its path.Perfect 90 or close likely not but are you willing to stand in the predicted line of fire of a weapon while someone fires it into the air? I no am not.I bet that was the case at the Turkish wedding or perhaps the guy actually hit people above and across from him.I do not think very many people get hit by bullets truly fired anything near upwards to be honest even the ones that are coming down hard so to speak.

[Penguin]

A question to the Americans: How is the availability of blanks in the most common calibers in your local gun stores? Are they usually on sale or do they have to be ordered? And how much is the price compared to live ammo? Here blanks are usually cheaper, but this could be due to supply & demand.

[Stealhead]

You can buy them but I never paid much attention I mainly own semiautomatic weapons and for those you will also need a blank adapter or the weapon may not cycle at least this will be the case with most rifles.

There are entire websites devoted to selling blanks if that answers your question.

[August]

Unless the bullet was fired at a perfect 90 degree towards the sky then the bullet will travel in a manner that will still make it deadly if someone happens to be in it path.For your statement to be true the barrel would have to a perfect 90 deg upwards something that would be very hard for a person to do without some rigging.Anyone who fires guns in celebration or for what ever reason into the air they are never firing it perfectly 90.

In most photos you will see the person holding the weapon closer to 60 deg that bullet will for 100% certainty kill or injure anyone who should happen to be along its path.Perfect 90 or close likely not but are you willing to stand in the predicted line of fire of a weapon while someone fires it into the air? I no am not.I bet that was the case at the Turkish wedding or perhaps the guy actually hit people above and across from him.I do not think very many people get hit by bullets truly fired anything near upwards to be honest even the ones that are coming down hard so to speak.

I wouldn't want to be hit by a badly thrown punch for that matter but once a bullet or anything else has bled off it's initial velocity it's not very dangerous at all.

[Tchocky]

I'd say any sort of gun firing is dangerous, to be honest. It's just a matter of degree.

[Penguin]

You can buy them but I never paid much attention I mainly own semiautomatic weapons and for those you will also need a blank adapter or the weapon may not cycle at least this will be the case with most rifles.

There are entire websites devoted to selling blanks if that answers your question.

I asked because celebration shootings also happen often in the USA, hence the availability question in stores. Ordering from the web would need more pre-planning.
If I had a tendency to shoot my guns out of joy while being drunk, I'd prefer to load them with blanks before - but I guess most people who do this do not think much about that ;)

:hmmm: I've often witnessed weapons firing blanks, even full-auto rifles, never saw one with a blank fire adapter outside the military. I have only once seen a gun, a thompson, that had firing problems with blanks though, but for film shooting the effects are more important than a temporary malfunction.

[Stealhead]

[QUOTE=August;1734060]I wouldn't want to be hit by a badly thrown punch for that matter but once a bullet or anything else has bled off it's initial velocity it's not very dangerous at all.[/QUO


That would work out fine if the bullet truly had bleed off its energy but if it has not :dead:.I am gong to assume that the guy fired a bullet say like a .223 but he fired it at say 45 deg then that bullet is going to simply arc and come back down while it is still deadly at some point.true it may not be the normal ballistics but there are still many angles where it will not bled of its velocity enough to be safe.

[Highbury]

I wouldn't want to be hit by a badly thrown punch for that matter but once a bullet or anything else has bled off it's initial velocity it's not very dangerous at all.

I don't understand what you are trying to say. If you intend to prove that bullets fired from a gun are not that dangerous when falling back to Earth, then I am sorry you can talk internet physics all you like. They kill people. Many have died from them, period. You can't rationalize that away.

Here are 3 from the last 6 years or so that were in the US
http://www.clickorlando.com/news/4084756/detail.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4568568.stm
http://www.wsbtv.com/news/22105604/detail.html

You can say they are "not very dangerous at all" as much as you like. These not very dangerous things have a bad habit of killing people they hit.

[Madox58]

The need for a blank adapter depends on how much 'blow back gas' is needed to operate the bolt.
I don't believe the Thompson SM used gas like an M16 does.

Also, HollyWood Guns maybe specially 'fixed' so you would not need the bulky blank adapter you had while in Service.

Did you know that if a guy grabs the muzzle of an M16 with no blank adapter,
and grips it tight enuff,
it WILL Rock-n-Roll on full Auto!!
:haha:

Ask me how I know!! I dare you!
:D

[Tchocky]

Did you know that if a guy grabs the muzzle of an M16 with no blank adapter,
and grips it tight enuff,
it WILL Rock-n-Roll on full Auto!!
:haha:

Ask me how I know!! I dare you!
:D

A story told by your old Army buddy, No-Face McGee? :D

[August]

I'd say any sort of gun firing is dangerous, to be honest. It's just a matter of degree.

There you go. A matter of degree.

[Stealhead]

I don't understand what you are trying to say. If you intend to prove that bullets fired from a gun are not that dangerous when falling back to Earth, then I am sorry you can talk internet physics all you like. They kill people. Many have died from them, period. You can't rationalize that away.

Here are 3 from the last 6 years or so that were in the US
http://www.clickorlando.com/news/4084756/detail.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4568568.stm
http://www.wsbtv.com/news/22105604/detail.html

You can say they are "not very dangerous at all" as much as you like. These not very dangerous things have a bad habit of killing people they hit.


He is talking about a bullet that has expended all of its energy and is coming back down to earth at terminal velocity which for any bullet is not deadly it would be like a rock getting tossed at you maybe.The only problem is that the barrel must be perfectly vertical for that to happen.If not it could be deadly if the angle and the ballistics work out which they can.Though as I said I dont think very many people have truly been hit by the type of shooting I am talking about.

It is very common for some reason for police and doctors to list a person killed or injured by a bullet and the source of said bullet is unknown to credit it as having come from the air so you cant rely on that many people get shot and do not want to say who shot them or witnesses dont want to say so you get "the sky bullet".

[Penguin]

A story told by your old Army buddy, No-Face McGee? :D

:har:

like the old joke how the guy from the sawmill orders 10 beers:
http://img851.imageshack.us/img851/9110/3193116manshowingtwofin.jpg

[August]

The only problem is that the barrel must be perfectly vertical for that to happen.


No, not perfectly vertical. Actually it can be fired at any angle as long as it has expended it's velocity. As long as it's still travelling laterally it has not expended all it's energy, although as Tchocky said it's a matter of degree.

You're right about the unknown origin bullets though.

[Tribesman]

He is talking about a bullet that has expended all of its energy and is coming back down to earth at terminal velocity which for any bullet is not deadly it would be like a rock getting tossed at you maybe.
Another one that doesn't get physics:doh:
Do you even know what terminal velocity means Stealhead?

[Stealhead]

The need for a blank adapter depends on how much 'blow back gas' is needed to operate the bolt.
I don't believe the Thompson SM used gas like an M16 does.

Also, HollyWood Guns maybe specially 'fixed' so you would not need the bulky blank adapter you had while in Service.

Did you know that if a guy grabs the muzzle of an M16 with no blank adapter,
and grips it tight enuff,
it WILL Rock-n-Roll on full Auto!!
:haha:

Ask me how I know!! I dare you!
:D

Your crazy man. Yeah the Thompson uses blow back.I think the adapter is needed more with gas tube and gas piston systems becasue the all AKs and derivatives also use blank adapters. http://centerfiresystems.com/ProductImages/AK/AK-BFA-B.jpg

I always wondered this maybe you know why seems to me that during exercises belt feed weapons like the M-60,240,249 they never seemed to feed very well using blanks maybe it is the weaker blank causing that?

[August]

I always wondered this maybe you know why seems to me that during exercises belt feed weapons like the M-60,240,249 they never seemed to feed very well using blanks maybe it is the weaker blank causing that?

I believe it is a combination of that and fouling faster because of the increased rate of fire. Even popping off a magazine or two with our old M-16s would gunk them up pretty good.

[Madox58]

A story told by your old Army buddy, No-Face McGee? :D
:haha:
Nope. Gallant Eagle '82. The Death Drop!

I was a Scout Patrol Leader and captured an APC with full Crew.
According to the ROE (Rules of Engagement) they had to allow us to take them back to a detainment area.

I was in the Commander's Copula when they decided to try an escape.
(Against the rules!)
The stupid 1st LT reached up and grabbed the muzzle of my M16 which had no adapter on it.

I had blanks loaded and pulled the trigger!
:o
30 rounds later? I had a bit of flesh attached to the end of that Weapon,
he had some VERY nasty burns to his hands!!
:haha:

We dropped some Tear Gas inside the APC and laughed our behinds off
then the Judges showed up and told those Army Reserves they could not try what they did!

Once We got that APC to the detainment area?
The biggest Mexican S.O.B. looking guy I've ever seen came after me because of the burns to his Lt!
:o

He took my M16 away from me like it was nothing as I back stepped to get a stance!
(It had nothing but blanks anyway)
The 2 Custom Made Fighting knifes that came off my Gear sure gave him a lot of reasons to stop dead in his tracks though!
:har:

I told him just how I felt at that moment.
He stopped after I spoke to him.
I don't recall the exact words but I still know to this day I would have sliced and diced him had he came any closer to me.
:nope:
The Lt. did come up to me later and apologized for both of them.
And I did sit down with that big Mexican S.O.B. and share a drink with him!
(All AirBorne carry a flask)
:up:

[Madox58]

Your crazy man. Yeah the Thompson uses blow back.I think the adapter is needed more with gas tube and gas piston systems becasue the all AKs and derivatives also use blank adapters. http://centerfiresystems.com/ProductImages/AK/AK-BFA-B.jpg

I always wondered this maybe you know why seems to me that during exercises belt feed weapons like the M-60,240,249 they never seemed to feed very well using blanks maybe it is the weaker blank causing that?

No I ain't crazy.
I don't know the Thompson that well so it's operation is unknown to me.
All I know is mostly Gas Tube Weapons.

Every Gas Tube Weapon suffers from clogs to the Gas Tube when fireing Blanks that I'm aware of.
The reason is is that you are shoveing the spent powder back down the Tube!

The M16 does not show this as quick as it is not usually fired on full Auto all the time. (If you know what the heck your doing!)

The M-60 and such fire full Auto ALL the time!
Plus they have a bit bigger round/load thus a quicker clog factor.

[Stealhead]

No I ain't crazy.
I don't know the Thompson that well so it's operation is unknown to me.
All I know is mostly Gas Tube Weapons.

Every Gas Tube Weapon suffers from clogs to the Gas Tube when fireing Blanks that I'm aware of.
The reason is is that you are shoveing the spent powder back down the Tube!

The M16 does not show this as quick as it is not usually fired on full Auto all the time. (If you know what the heck your doing!)

The M-60 and such fire full Auto ALL the time!
Plus they have a bit bigger round/load thus a quicker clog factor.

Well your story changed my mind I had it pictured you holding an M-16 with one hand the other on the muzzle blasting away for some reason Rambo style.We had M-16A2s so full auto was not an option.

One funny thing about the Air Force was even in the late 1990s at least where I was stationed there where still some M16A1/M203 combos in use.In the AF you get issued a different weapon each day when you go to the armory and I was qualified on the M203 so if the regular cops found this out they'd make me carry it around in stead of themselves and one time the armor issues me and I see that it is an A1 (the A1 has a different rear sight and a different flash suppressor) I say what is this something left over from the Tet Offensive?

[August]

In the AF you get issued a different weapon each day when you go to the armory

How do you maintain a zero?

[Anthony W.]

Didn't they do a study that proved a bullet at terminal velocity can't do much harm unless it hits the middle of the top of your head?

[RickC Sniper]

The problem with gunshoot celebrations is there's always a couple of dipwads who forget which direction UP is.:know:

Oh, and then add alcohol. :damn:

[RickC Sniper]

How do you maintain a zero?

This.

Besides, I want the firearm I cleaned and oiled back.

[Stealhead]

Good question I did not make up the rules the Air Force did you should know that the AF is not known for making the wisest choices.Funny thing was the regular SPs got issued weapons the same way M9s and M-16s but the Security Forces guys which are more like Infantry and focus on base defense had assigned weapons so they got the same weapon.In both cases you had to clean your weapon before turning it in at the end of the day.This was in the 1990s though I did not get this detail in the 2000's and it was not my normal job so I did not keep up with how they did things but I am pretty sure it is different now seeing as since 2008 you get issued an M-16 for basic in and learn the ins and outs in the past they taught you this in a day and only SPs SF the elite AF guys got any further training.As a result in the old day people like me who had experience with firearms in civilian life where usually the ones that got selected for "fill in" duty.Baislcy in the old AF only the people who worked with weapons every day or had an interest in firearms or had the brains to realize that you might just some day have to use a weapon got god scores and knew the weapons others barely ever touched them I can recall at one yearly qualification the person to my left and right did not know too smack the bolt release after they had unloaded one mag and put an new one in.If you hit the side hard enough you don't even have to hit the latch my dad was in the Army an LRRP man and was in Nam so he taught me alot about the M-16 to say the least the AF taught me nothing.

I found out from a Security Forces Flight Staff Sargent that you had to fill out a form and they would issue you the same weapon so when I found this out I zeroed one and that one was mine after that.Another thing that most airmen apparently did not know is that any airmen regardless of job could request to go to a range and fire any weapon you where qualified on or you could also ask to be trained on a weapon that you wished to be qualified on.What can I say easily 60% of the Air Force spend more time in chairs so what do you really expect?4% are actual aircrew and the rest are either SPs or SF or mechanics who are doing the physical labor.

[Tribesman]

Didn't they do a study that proved a bullet at terminal velocity can't do much harm unless it hits the middle of the top of your head?

It would depend on what the terminal velocity of that bullet was.
If every bullet was a perfect sphere with the same dimensions the same mass and the same perfctly uniform surface finish then they would all have the same terminal velocity as they would all have the same drag no matter which way they fell, and they would all free fall to that velocity in the same time in the same distance
But as bullets don't fit those categories you can see that some people have been making rather strange statements about what they think terminal velocity is.

[Penguin]

The need for a blank adapter depends on how much 'blow back gas' is needed to operate the bolt.
I don't believe the Thompson SM used gas like an M16 does.

Also, HollyWood Guns maybe specially 'fixed' so you would not need the bulky blank adapter you had while in Service.


Your crazy man. Yeah the Thompson uses blow back.I think the adapter is needed more with gas tube and gas piston systems becasue the all AKs and derivatives also use blank adapters. http://centerfiresystems.com/ProductImages/AK/AK-BFA-B.jpg


I have seen different AK's that fired blanks, there was nothing to see from the outside - if I presume correctly that this adapter is put onto the muzzle. Maybe the adapter for prop weapons is somehow attached inside the rifles. I will check it out when I see the gun prop guy the next time and tell you how they do it.

[Stealhead]

If you look at old photos of Soviet troops during training or in newer pictures of Russians you will see them on the end of the muzzle they are natural metal so they may not stand out like say the kind that most western rifles use which also happen to be red or yellow.

here is modern example attached to AK74Ms in the case of the AK74 the muzzle brake must be removed.
http://englishrussia.com/images/soldier_training/1.jpg



As Privateer said before prop guns are completely modified from the original design and they also fire special blanks as well it is nothing like a military rifle or gun using blanks for training
purposes place prop guns in their own category from the weapon that they look like or do not look like the "pulse rifle from Aliens is a really a prop gun M1 Thompson with lots of furniture added and the Smart gun that is a highly modified MG3.

[August]

AK-47 blank adapters

https://www.libertytreecollectors.com/productcart/pc/catalog/DSC0765711(1).JPG





.50 cal M2 adapter

http://www.cranetechnologiesinc.com/50Browning/M1950CalBlankFiringAdaptor1.jpg

[Stealhead]

I tried to find some photos of Soviet troops in training with the blank adapters but I did not find any I have several old cold war era books that show them though.

Of course we have the MILES system which simulates bullets of various calibers so you cant kill a tank with an M-16.The Soviets never had anything like that and I don't think the Russian military does today not on a large scale anyway.Before MILES it was pretty easy to cheat one of my uncles told me about a war game in West Germany in the late 50s back in those days you had a team color which would be the color of your m1 helmet liner my uncle got picked to drive the commander around in a jeep and they took a wrong turn they stopped and realized that they where in "blue" territory and the radio operator takes out this little can of red paint and takes everyone's helmet liners and paints them red they figured that no red troops would not question a red officer riding in a jeep and they didn't.The trick was to have two sources of paint one in your color the other in the enemy color.:haha:

[MH]

Of course we have the MILES system.....

It aways comes defective :D

[August]

I tried to find some photos of Soviet troops in training with the blank adapters but I did not find any I have several old cold war era books that show them though.

Of course we have the MILES system which simulates bullets of various calibers so you cant kill a tank with an M-16.The Soviets never had anything like that and I don't think the Russian military does today not on a large scale anyway.Before MILES it was pretty easy to cheat one of my uncles told me about a war game in West Germany in the late 50s back in those days you had a team color which would be the color of your m1 helmet liner my uncle got picked to drive the commander around in a jeep and they took a wrong turn they stopped and realized that they where in "blue" territory and the radio operator takes out this little can of red paint and takes everyone's helmet liners and paints them red they figured that no red troops would not question a red officer riding in a jeep and they didn't.The trick was to have two sources of paint one in your color the other in the enemy color.:haha:

During an ARTEP at Hohenfels a few of our guys acting as aggressor forces put white engineer tape around their steel pots like the referees, donned medic armbands and drove right into the enemy Bn HQ. They claimed they were from the Red Cross and they were there to take SFC so and so for a family emergency. SFC so and so happened to be the Bn S2 NCOIC. Once clear of the AO guns were pulled out and he became our prisoner. The Refs didn't allow it to stand of course but it sure made an impression.

That was the year we got ahold of the enemy CEOI and used it to broadcast "Radio Free Orange Forces" on their tactical radio nets. :D

[Dowly]

Guns are bad, mkay? :O:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hS85HH9Pf80&feature=player_detailpage#t=27s

[Gerald]

:up: