TankSim!

[Gerald]

Gentlemen: A few days ago I got hints of Dowly, what is the best tanksim, and he mentioned the there could be a good idea that you are initiated here can tell me which is preferable, and that has fewest problems, and can be run on-line, :up:

[ZeeWolf]

Hi Vendor,
That's a good question, I would like to know the "tank simulations" on line too.
Most tend to be arcade style games with no (or very little) historical concerns.
Most arcades appeal to the masses so-to-speak and use the term "tanksim"
as marketing hype.

ZeeWolf

[Gerald]

Hi Vendor,
That's a good question, I would like to know the "tank simulations" on line too.
Most tend to be arcade style games with no (or very little) historical concerns.
Most arcades appeal to the masses so-to-speak and use the term "tanksim"
as marketing hype.

ZeeWolf Ok! Do you have any thoughts on any particular game ... Dowly mentioned the T-34 .. but the game had "little" problems on-line....

[Skybird]

Gentlemen: A few days ago I got hints of Dowly, what is the best tanksim, and he mentioned the there could be a good idea that you are initiated here can tell me which is preferable, and that has fewest problems, and can be run on-line, :up:

SBP. Fewest problems. Constant upgrading. Realistic simulation. Rocksolid online.

If you demand WWII visuals, than not SBP.

Check the latest entries in the video list in my sig, and nthe resources thread.

Also check the essay "How to simulate WWII-like battles with SBP" linked to in the resources.

[Gerald]

SBP. Fewest problems. Constant upgrading. Realistic simulation. Rocksolid online.

If you demand WWII visuals, than not SBP.

Check the latest entries in the video list in my sig, and nthe resources thread.

Also check the essay "How to simulate WWII-like battles with SBP" linked to in the resources. Good, but is not there an old game with worse graphics ... than can be expected today, :hmmm:

[Skybird]

Good, but is not there an old game with worse graphics ... than can be expected today, :hmmm:
What...?

If you mean the first Steel Beasts, now that is old, yes, with worse graphics, also yes, becasue it was VGA palette and software mode graphics only. Why should one want that old thing today? SBP is the new version.

[Gerald]

What...?

If you mean the first Steel Beasts, now that is old, yes, with worse graphics, also yes, becasue it was VGA palette and software mode graphics only. Why should one want that old thing today? SBP is the new version. Sooo..how much $ ?

[ZeeWolf]

Ok! Do you have any thoughts on any particular game ... Dowly mentioned the T-34 .. but the game had "little" problems on-line....

I have not given the online capabilities the ZW touch yet, but I will as soon as
the single player side of the sim is complete.
The online side of T34 vs Tiger will be much more separate than it was intended
to be by the developers. Creating vehicles that are online specific
is the only way to achieve any real success with the online end. Basically
stating the online work from a rock solid single player T34 vs Tiger that will
be my approach.

[Gerald]

I have not given the online capabilities the ZW touch yet, but I will as soon as
the single player side of the sim is complete.
The online side of T34 vs Tiger will be much more separate than it was intended
to be by the developers. Creating vehicles that are online specific
is the only way to achieve any real success with the online end. Basically
stating the online work from a rock solid single player T34 vs Tiger that will
be my approach. Thank you, I wait until I purchased the client ... or buy it first, does not matter, :yep:

[ZeeWolf]

Thank you, I wait until I purchased the client ... or buy it first, does not matter, :yep:

Well just a word from what I've learned so far:
Tank simulation developers (me included) need your support now. The way
things are going and have been going [PC simulations] are dying on the vine.
For example this endeavor "Project ZeeWolf " has been the least profitable for
the amount of time/work then anything I have personally been involved with.
I could not even begin to imagine a development house taking on a tank sim
and surviving. There is no base that want to see a companies success likewise
there is very few development teams willing (or can hold their life together long
enough) to eat out of a can until the project is complete.
The reality is - it takes money to make this stuff.

So, on behalf of all those who are trying to make this tank sim stuff work,
donate, support and encourage - please!

ZeeWolf

[Gerald]

Well just a word from what I've learned so far:
Tank simulation developers (me included) need your support now. The way
things are going and have been going [PC simulations] are dying on the vine.
For example this endeavor "Project ZeeWolf " has been the least profitable for
the amount of time/work then anything I have personally been involved with.
I could not even begin to imagine a development house taking on a tank sim
and surviving. There is no base that want to see a companies success likewise
there is very few development teams willing (or can hold their life together long
enough) to eat out of a can until the project is complete.
The reality is - it takes money to make this stuff.

So, on behalf of all those who are trying to make this tank sim stuff work,
donate, support and encourage - please!

ZeeWolf Of course I will do my best, if time and other commitments work well, and donating the piece will continue as usual, if nothing unforeseen happens.

[ZeeWolf]

Of course I will do my best, if time and other commitments work well, and donating the piece will continue as usual, if nothing unforeseen happens.

Great Vendor, thanks,
As for the unforeseen - that's the part that is bound to shake things up
for us all! :o

[Dowly]

The way
things are going and have been going [PC simulations] are dying on the vine.

If one category in the simulations genre is dying, it doesn't mean the whole
genre is going to go with it. ;)

[Gerald]

Great Vendor, thanks,
As for the unforeseen - that's the part that is bound to shake things up
for us all! :o I send a PM! :03:

[Skybird]

Sooo..how much $ ?

16,000.00 $US per 10 seat classroom license.

:D

As a private user, you get it for 125.00 $US/86.80 €. ;)

[Gerald]

16,000.00 $US per 10 seat classroom license.

:D

As a private user, you get it for 125.00 $US/86.80 €. ;) Thanks,(Dowly's figures were correct,not that I doubted in any way) two hours of work....Priceless :D

[Skybird]

BTW, I disagree with Zeewolf here. It's not because he and me are interested in two very different titles, but because post #10 in here. Simulations still find an audience willing to pay, if they are justifying their price with quality. That is true for flightsims, and for racing sims, and for subsims. It also is true for tanksims, and especially for WWII tanks, the market is bigger than for contemporary tank sims. But Steel Fury and TvT got published by a publisher cheating on the developement teams, and also at release time both games imo simply were not good, even when not considering them as hardcore sims (which they are not), but "games". Both titles are no longer officially available, as far as I know, the publisher went bancrupt, the support ceased almost immediately after release. But this forum and as well feedback in nother gaming forums show that there difintely is intrerest in taksims, and especially WWII tank sims. But also, there is still the occasional mentioning of M1 Tank Platoon 2, and of course Steel Beasts 1 and Pro PE. Many People would love to see a Tank Platoon 3, which often simply means: an SBP with contemporary graphics and for the price of just one instead of two games, because what drives people away from SBP most often is the price before anything else.

I do not see tanksims being under more pressure than all PC gaming, not at all. You just have to deliuver the kind of quality people expect, for the price of an ordinary game.Eagle Dynamics and their DCS flightsims are much more a niche product, due to the immense complexity of these study sims. And still they find their market. SBP comes at the cost of two games, and okay, the game market is just a bonus for them, not their core business, but still - it finds its customers in the public private sector, due to mouth propagfanda for its good quality. The demand for Steel Fury seems to have declined massively, which does nto surprise me, since I think it was no well-done title _ I tested it back then, and as an arcade game rfated it reaosnably good, but as a sim below par. TvT was released in a hopelessly prermature statuzs and in a bad status - rushing out unfinsihed relases this way certainly will not establish such games a good reputation, and backfire agaiunst the publisher and developer as well in the long run.

So when there is difficult times for tank developers, then maybe that is because they are responsible for that all by themselves...? This does not go against Zeewolf, I do not like TvT, but I never have tested his mod, so I do not comment on what he is doing. I just want to put his absolute statement a bit into relation.

[Gerald]

BTW, I disagree with Zeewolf here. It's not because he and me are interested in two very different titles, but because post #10 in here. Simulations still find an audience willing to pay, if they are justifying their price with quality. That is true for flightsims, and for racing sims, and for subsims. It also is true for tanksims, and especially for WWII tanks, the market is bigger than for contemporary tank sims. But Steel Fury and TvT got published by a publisher cheating on the developement teams, and also at release time both games imo simply were not good, even when not considering them as hardcore sims (which they are not), but "games". Both titles are no longer officially available, as far as I know, the publisher went bancrupt, the support ceased almost immediately after release. But this forum and as well feedback in nother gaming forums show that there difintely is intrerest in taksims, and especially WWII tank sims. But also, there is still the occasional mentioning of M1 Tank Platoon 2, and of course Steel Beasts 1 and Pro PE. Many People would love to see a Tank Platoon 3, which often simply means: an SBP with contemporary graphics and for the price of just one instead of two games, because what drives people away from SBP most often is the price before anything else.

I do not see tanksims being under more pressure than all PC gaming, not at all. You just have to deliuver the kind of quality people expect, for the price of an ordinary game.Eagle Dynamics and their DCS flightsims are much more a niche product, due to the immense complexity of these study sims. And still they find their market. SBP comes at the cost of two games, and okay, the game market is just a bonus for them, not their core business, but still - it finds its customers in the public private sector, due to mouth propagfanda for its good quality. The demand for Steel Fury seems to have declined massively, which does nto surprise me, since I think it was no well-done title _ I tested it back then, and as an arcade game rfated it reaosnably good, but as a sim below par. TvT was released in a hopelessly prermature statuzs and in a bad status - rushing out unfinsihed relases this way certainly will not establish such games a good reputation, and backfire agaiunst the publisher and developer as well in the long run.

So when there is difficult times for tank developers, then maybe that is because they are responsible for that all by themselves...? This does not go against Zeewolf, I do not like TvT, but I never have tested his mod, so I do not comment on what he is doing. I just want to put his absolute statement a bit into relation. Well,thanks for your input about tank sims...Indeed, I tried some a few years ago, but some have changed, and then I am a bit novice in this topic, :hmmm:

[Skybird]

Well, there is currently no big choice anyway. The only sim still supported and officially sold, is SBP. As smile price- or second hand-buys you can get TvT, and SF. M1TP2 does not run on most modern OS, and is hopelessly overaged. There is no argument for getting SB1, except the maybe low price you have to pay, but damn - it looks old and it is old. And then there was Panzer III, very good at its time, but again: hopelessly overaged today, no longer recommendable.

Think about what features and qualities you want, and then chose between SBP-PE and Zeewolf's TvT mod. Better ignore SF, it had some flaws that made me really shreddering it, so I will not recommend it. Timeframe is an obvious criterion, then online play, realism, tactical challenge, longtime motivation/replayability value.

Most likely, the question whether or not it must be WWII graphics is what will decide it for you. It has been the important question for many people coming here and asking for tank titles in the past. But consider the other points as well.

[Gerald]

Well, there is currently no big choice anyway. The only sim still supported and officially sold, is SBP. As smile price- or second hand-buys you can get TvT, and SF. M1TP2 does not run on most modern OS, and is hopelessly overaged. There is no argument for getting SB1, except the maybe low price you have to pay, but damn - it looks old and it is old. And then there was Panzer III, very good at its time, but again: hopelessly overaged today, no longer recommendable.

Think about what features and qualities you want, and then chose between SBP-PE and Zeewolf's TvT mod. Better ignore SF, it had some flaws that made me really shreddering it, so I will not recommend it. Timeframe is an obvious criterion, then online play, realism, tactical challenge, longtime motivation/replayability value.

Most likely, the question whether or not it must be WWII graphics is what will decide it for you. It has been the important question for many people coming here and asking for tank titles in the past. But consider the other points as well. Personally, I prefer a good graphics and detail, and that it can be both WWII and the future ... but that it is interference, it may I assume .. but I guess what I chose, so will the current updates,in the long and short term.

[ZeeWolf]

If one category in the simulations genre is dying, it doesn't mean the whole
genre is going to go with it. ;)

Well from what I see there is nothing really encouraging going on is there?

[Skybird]

but that it is interference, it may I assume .. but I guess what I chose, so will the current updates,in the long and short term.

Ich versteh mal wieder nur die Hälfte. :haha:

I do not know any tank title allowing you WWII and modern equipement/scenarios.

The cloosest you can get in combining two era, is SBP, which has early cold war tanks like the Leopard-1A5, T-55, T-62 and M60A3 (the last three only AI-controlled, though), and most modern types like Leopard-2A6, M1A2SEP, T-80U and Challenger-II, which all are crewable except the T-80 (the C2 will become crewable in this winter's major upgrade). You can also tune down the in fluence of modern hightech by disabling certain subsystems like thermal imagers and laser range finders in the mission editor, forcing players tro use classic visual sights with crosshairs and scales like in WWII.

But you should also compare the style of "gameplay" in TvT and SBP. It is very different. I do not know if the Zeewolf mods change that, but the TvT in default status was an arcade shooting gallery with linear and prefixed mission flow, and the player only gunning away, needing to follow the string of mandatory successes before the mission rolled on - else tanks got respawned time and again (hope I get this right, I had only one afternoon on somebody else'S system to testplay it). SBP on the other hand allows you freedom of mission plan, team cooperation, tactics planning, playing from TC or gunner's seat or as force commander. Making best use of terrain and unit coordination are important parts of the show. You will spend much time i n hte mission planner before mission start. The better your preparation, the better your chances. SBP is no Rambo game. SBP also allows complex mission designs like bridging and minefield breaching operations. Simplified are helicotper and ifantry behavior, with infantry said to be drastically improved with the coming upgrade.

I should, mention that after several years, their major upgrade packages, which usually are very comprehensive, now have become payware (25 dolalrs, I think). Patches are still free. They delivered upgrades for free over the first years. They said from all begining on that at one day they would need to take some minor price for additional content - and they did so after delivering the first 4 years of all patches and upgrades for free.

And graphics, you asked for. The graphics in SBP deliver, and do their job of creating a beliavable battle envrionment. There are extrenmely realistic sights (optical, thermal), no dnymaic light chnages over the time of day/night, and the most used vehicles now have highres skins which are second to none in detail you see in ArmA2 or similiar titles. The sim creates optical vieiwjng ranges of up to 4.5 km, and delivers very natural feelings for the landscape. I prefer this engine to that of ArmA1, for example. Youz will not get too much effect gimmicks, though, no special light effects, and the kind of things you use to see in Unreal Torunament.

Sounds are already good in default release, plus many sound mods avaialble improving this or that sound file even more. It is no joy to witness an artillery barrage from being inside it.

[Skybird]

Well from what I see there is nothing really encouraging going on is there?
DCS A-10...?

SH5, despite its broken status, still selling.

Addon market for FSX and FS9 EXTREMELY busy.

Rise of Flight.

IL2 and Dover.

To mention a few.

[Gerald]

Ich versteh mal wieder nur die Hälfte. :haha:

I do not know any tank title allowing you WWII and modern equipement/scenarios.

The cloosest you can get in combining two era, is SBP, which has early cold war tanks like the Leopard-1A5, T-55, T-62 and M60A3 (the last three only AI-controlled, though), and most modern types like Leopard-2A6, M1A2SEP, T-80U and Challenger-II, which all are crewable except the T-80 (the C2 will become crewable in this winter's major upgrade). You can also tune down the in fluence of modern hightech by disabling certain subsystems like thermal imagers and laser range finders in the mission editor, forcing players tro use classic visual sights with crosshairs and scales like in WWII.

But you should also compare the style of "gameplay" in TvT and SBP. It is very different. I do not know if the Zeewolf mods change that, but the TvT in default status was an arcade shooting gallery with linear and prefixed mission flow, and the player only gunning away, needing to follow the string of mandatory successes before the mission rolled on - else tanks got respawned time and again (hope I get this right, I had only one afternoon on somebody else'S system to testplay it). SBP on the other hand allows you freedom of mission plan, team cooperation, tactics planning, playing from TC or gunner's seat or as force commander. Making best use of terrain and unit coordination are important parts of the show. You will spend much time i n hte mission planner before mission start. The better your preparation, the better your chances. SBP is no Rambo game. SBP also allows complex mission designs like bridging and minefield breaching operations. Simplified are helicotper and ifantry behavior, with infantry said to be drastically improved with the coming upgrade.

I should, mention that after several years, their major upgrade packages, which usually are very comprehensive, now have become payware (25 dolalrs, I think). Patches are still free. They delivered upgrades for free over the first years. They said from all begining on that at one day they would need to take some minor price for additional content - and they did so after delivering the first 4 years of all patches and upgrades for free. And the graphics are high and details....;)

[ZeeWolf]

16,000.00 $US per 10 seat classroom license.

:D

As a private user, you get it for 125.00 $US/86.80 €. ;)

That's great Sb, I hope you sell a million!

As for Project ZeeWolf it's $50.00 per year. With a great deal for those
who renew for $30.00 for their first renewal, $20.00 for their second
renewal and $10.00 per year for their third renewal.

[ZeeWolf]

DCS A-10...?

SH5, despite its broken status, still selling.

Addon market for FSX and FS9 EXTREMELY busy.

Rise of Flight.

IL2 and Dover.

To mention a few.

Ok, I love flight sims and of course Silent Hunter is awesome for us PC
guys man, it's really in a class of it's own.

[Gerald]

That's great Sb, I hope you sell a million!

As for Project ZeeWolf it's $50.00 per year. With a great deal for those
who renew for $30.00 for their first renewal, $20.00 for their second
renewal and $10.00 per year for their third renewal. What differs in these Project ... apart from the economic part :hmm2:

[Skybird]

That's great Sb, I hope you sell a million!

Of what? I sell nothing. I have no links whatever to eSim. I just do mouth propaganda, privately motivated and unpayed for. And no, I do not get my copies for free. :)

[Skybird]

And the graphics are high and details....;)
Hm...? Sometimes I just understand "Bahnhof".

Graphics can be watched here:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=88893&page=3

From post #45 on. That represents the .dds-standard that was introduced back then, with highrtes skins and new 3D models. all oictrures before posting #45 are old.

Lovely.
http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/4038/ss013137.jpg

http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/9626/ss014208.jpg

http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/2872/ss025049.jpg

http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/8163/ss011644.jpg

http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/4590/ss012539.jpg

http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/7775/ss144920.jpg

http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/4348/ss144347.jpg

Any more questions...!?! :stare:


:woot:

[Skybird]

What differs in these Project ... apart from the economic part :hmm2:
I think he means that when you prolongue your subscription to downloading his content, the second term will be cheaper for you, and the third even more. You do not pay 50/1st year+50/2nd year+50/3rd year, but 50/1st year+30/2nd year+20/3rd year.

[Skybird]

Yes...graphics look ok ... but I guess it gets better with time, thanks! I guess you can turn down the graphics card settings, to a normal level now, or it can redirect I have too high, and the game is not suited for cards that are built "for to good" :o

???

If you ask for what graphics options there are: not too many. You can set resolution to anything you want, and have the range at which the grass and detailed terrain is displayed, to longer didstances. In principle, that's it. AA and AF you can set via your gfx driver.

Hope this was what you wanted to ask.

Chances are that you can run the sim on any system around these days - also on older ones: I ran it until this spring on a system from 2004 or so - and a standard system that was at its time, nothing special.

Just avoid to carelssly set the grass lsider to maximum - that sometimes can kill any system there is.

[Skybird]

I forgot: best advise is to check out the videos. This series gives you 1 day of multiplayer action in WWIII, condensed and summarised in 6 videos of around 1 hour in total. It starts in dark, yes, but you can move forward if you want. If you are after MP, this is what you need to see.

Brave Rifles - Zipuli - January-March 2011 (multiplayer)
part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9tPv...eature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9tPvJoCZLg&feature=related)
part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFZuC...eature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFZuC28HXHQ&feature=related)
part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvC9TyTpOEk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvC9TyTpOEk)
part 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xz9yFp2Q6O8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xz9yFp2Q6O8)
part 5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYJv8...eature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYJv8F0666A&feature=related)
part 6 (The Final) : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMi0n...eature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMi0n_aQKCw&feature=related)

From the dawn of day one to the afternoon of the second day - 36 hours of intense fighting in the 90s, when the cold war suddenly turned hot! This is a great multiplayer battle being done, telling the story of events in more than one hour of video!

[Gerald]

???

If you ask for what graphics options there are: not too many. You can set resolution to anything you want, and have the range at which the grass and detailed terrain is displayed, to longer didstances. In principle, that's it. AA and AF you can set via your gfx driver.

Hope this was what you wanted to ask.

Chances are that you can run the sim on any system around these days - also on older ones: I ran it until this spring on a system from 2004 or so - and a standard system that was at its time, nothing special.

Just avoid to carelssly set the grass lsider to maximum - that sometimes can kill any system there is. Thanks for all the answers, I have good machines and cards, so setting becomes less of a problem .. with AA and AF :up:

[Jimbuna]

Yes...graphics look ok ... but I guess it gets better with time, thanks! I guess you can turn down the graphics card settings, to a normal level now, or it can redirect I have too high, and the game is not suited for cards that are built "for to good" :o

Can we please remember not to copy the graphical content when quoting Gerald....in all fairness Steve has already pointed this out to you recently.

As we are all well aware....bandwidth costs money.

TIA

[Gerald]

Can we please remember not to copy the graphical content when quoting Gerald....in all fairness Steve has already pointed this out to you recently.

As we are all well aware....bandwidth costs money.

TIA I know it .. and please excuse me!

[Gerald]

I forgot: best advise is to check out the videos. This series gives you 1 day of multiplayer action in WWIII, condensed and summarised in 6 videos of around 1 hour in total. It starts in dark, yes, but you can move forward if you want. If you are after MP, this is what you need to see.

Brave Rifles - Zipuli - January-March 2011 (multiplayer)
part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9tPv...eature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9tPvJoCZLg&feature=related)
part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFZuC...eature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFZuC28HXHQ&feature=related)
part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvC9TyTpOEk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvC9TyTpOEk)
part 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xz9yFp2Q6O8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xz9yFp2Q6O8)
part 5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYJv8...eature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYJv8F0666A&feature=related)
part 6 (The Final) : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMi0n...eature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMi0n_aQKCw&feature=related)

From the dawn of day one to the afternoon of the second day - 36 hours of intense fighting in the 90s, when the cold war suddenly turned hot! This is a great multiplayer battle being done, telling the story of events in more than one hour of video! :up:

[Jimbuna]

I know it .. and please excuse me if this ... but if it's just about money, so I can make donations at a faster pace, no problem at all!

No, it is not about money it is more a case of using bandwidth and lengthening the time other board users that have slow connections will require to access the thread.

[ZeeWolf]

What differs in these Project ... apart from the economic part :hmm2:

Project ZeeWolf has been and still is an ongoing work to build on top of a
product that was dumped on the market, unfinished and unsupported.
Although I do love T34 vs Tiger the progress I have achieved thus far has
been truly amazing in all aspects from the default product. Fixing and
supporting the software is just a part of the work the main part is to
produce from the default product a stellar Tank Simulation that this
game's engine has to offer.

[ZeeWolf]

Of what? I sell nothing. I have no links whatever to eSim. I just do mouth propaganda, privately motivated and unpayed for. And no, I do not get my copies for free. :)

Sorry about that, I didn't mean it as an accusation.

[Gerald]

My records are edited, and deleted,and of course, money is important in the long term.

[Skybird]

Sorry about that, I didn't mean it as an accusation.
Don't worry, I did not take it as an accusation, just a possible misunderstanding.

[Jimbuna]

My records are edited, and deleted,and of course, money is important in the long term.

*For the record*

I did not ask you to delete the complete post and feel disappointed you felt the need to resort to public sarcasm.

If you wish to continue this dialogue/exchange I would appreciate the vehicle of use be via PM.

[Gerald]

*For the record*

I did not ask you to delete the complete post and feel disappointed you felt the need to resort to public sarcasm.

If you wish to continue this dialogue/exchange I would appreciate the vehicle of use be via PM. It was a voluntary decision to delete and make changes, and there was no sarcasm from my side!