A Better Submarine Simulation than the Ubisoft Tripe

[Patchman123]

I was thinking about someday a submarine game having more value and actually having to rise through the ranks as a sailor and having to share a bunk with several other soldiers instead of being a captain all the time.

What about a more interactive submarine game? Where you can talk to other sailors on the submarine like a Sims game and talk to the captain. I know SH5 has something like that, but it's a total turkey. :rotfl2:As you know SH5 is a turkey. :rotfl2: It is perhaps the worst sub sim ever made. How about seeing the other 38 men aboard the sub and having to sweat it out in hot and sweaty conditions instead of being a captain all the time.

The current sub sims lack any interaction with the crew. Why I can't i be a single crewman aboad the ship or be an ordinary sailor who has to go through sub training or get a commission at Annapolis to be a captain?

I would love that. Instead of being chained like in SH5. These games lack any depth. There is no set up microphone input for single player. I was thinking about having someone petition Ubisoft to make a new sub game?

How about we all band together and make our own sub sim instead of the total crap from Ubisoft? Ubisoft is turning out really bad games.

One turkey after another. Why should we wait for Ubisoft to turn out more slop? Ubisoft is bull **** and we all know it.

Let's just petition Ubisoft to make a more interactive game than the current crap. A more realistic subsim. I wanna start off an ordinary seamen on a submarine and have a bunk and have to live through harrowing depth charge attacks. The depth charges physics are too unrealistic. The boat shakes like a blender instead of a REALLY earth-shaking shake to shake things up.

Silent Hunter games could be better. How about having a more interactive crew? Crew talking to each other about a girl back home or a card game or rumors of a lost submarine or rumors about where their voyage will the captain will take them next, i.e. Run Silent, Run Deep. Or listening to Tokyo Rose on the radio. :haha: Or sharing a smoke with another sailor, even though smoking is HIGHLY discouraged these days, (it wasn't then) and discouraged on a sub because of the risk of a fire.

How about a visible engine room? How about the loud noise of an engine room? Ever notice how the sub decelerates like a car does when stopping? That should stop, too.

How about playing cards with the XO? How about having to eat at the galley? How about a more interactive and human crew instead of a bunch of robotic zombies for more realism?

I'd love to eat in the galley or eat a small ration of food as a sailor.
I think that there should be more depth to a submarine game. The smells of the stink of the sailors cannot be replicated though. Having to spend time in a steel tube and least being human. That would be fun to talk to sailors on a submarine and see the enlisted quarters and sleep at night. Then wake up whenever and have the AI take over during an attack during the middle of the night. Being spotted on a Japanese night raid. How about having a real subsim?

How about the Subsim community make of its own? Based on Silent Hunter IV? I want an interactive crew, a talking captain and XO, to hear voice chatter among the crew about certain topics. And language filter for the family man in you. To have the choice of filtering out bad language.

Having a game where sailors jump out of their ships. How about having a game where you can surface your sub and abandon ship and swim to a deserted island and hope a PBY Catalina rescues you or spending the war in a Japanese POW camp if you're stuck behind enemy lines with no hope of rescue instead of having to grimly die with your sub?

I want to be able to swim from my submarine in first-person view. I want to see an enemy sailor jump from his gun position rather than having to see a poor sailor burn to death like he currently does and seeing the robotic lifelessness of an enemy ship. Why is everything so lifeless? Why everything in subsims so void of life and void of any humanity of any real human interaction? That puzzles me and disturbs me so.

How about a real subsim game with more interaction? That would be aAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWESOME to have something like that. I am tired of boring sub games, aren't you?

[Armistead]

With the right mods it's a great game. Online play will always lack in games that require TC, although several have groups and just start you in the fray. Would be nice if several could play together in one sub doing different roles....

Maybe one day...

[I'm goin' down]

With the right mods it's a great game. Online play will always lack in games that require TC, although several have groups and just start you in the fray. Would be nice if several could play together in one sub doing different roles....

Maybe one day...

As long as I am the captain, no problem. I can think of a few jobs that I others might not want. If RR is on the crew, it will be worse than a back seat driver. He would want to coordinate every attack.:haha:

[0rpheus]

Tripe:

http://www.lifeaftercubes.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/tripe.jpg

SH5:

http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/558664839990783098/325C769D6367A08F4BE86AC93F20E073798C8A9D/


Sounds like most of what you want is in SH5... not quite to the level of detail you want (cook is making broth in 5 for example, you can talk to him, but you can't eat it)... but definitely there. The stock game is awful, granted, but the mods make it a much better game. Seems like 5 was the attempt to make the boat & crew more 'alive' - but there's only so much you can do in a game. Crew mods are being worked on now actually, with WIP releases already available.

As for escaping and landing on an island.. then you're talking about a whole different game. Sitting there for months on end waiting to be rescued doesn't sound like much fun! ;)

Until a game that encompasses more of the 'submarine' experience is released, most of what you want will have to be found in a modded SH5/4 and a little mental roleplaying. I often imagine the conversations, clatter and noise around the sub while I stand on the bridge on a sunny day at sea, or the hushed whispers of a crew under DC attack, and I bet nearly everyone here does too.

The idea of a community made or non-Ubisoft submarine game is compelling... but a vast amount of work. No harm in crossing fingers for the future though!

Happy sailing! :salute:

[Daniel Prates]

Iuch! Trippa means 'intestins'.

Silent Hunter 5 went for that: having you feel like an actual person inside the submarine, having to walk around and access direcly your main officers etc.

Most people found that, though the idea was great, it grows old very soon and turns the game into a cumbersome experience.

[0rpheus]

Iuch! Trippa means 'intestins'.

Silent Hunter 5 went for that: having you feel like an actual person inside the submarine, having to walk around and access direcly your main officers etc.

Most people found that, though the idea was great, it grows old very soon and turns the game into a cumbersome experience.

Yeah cow stomach lining... bleghhh!

That's the beauty of TDWs New UI mods - you can still do all that, but you no longer have to. Check my screen: I can control it all from there without moving an inch just like in 4 (hell, you can even have the exact same layout found in 4 if you want lol).

Anyway this is the SH4 forum and I shouldn't be rattling on about SH5 :O: I love both equally :salute:

[razark]

...total crap from Ubisoft? Ubisoft is turning out really bad games.

One turkey after another. Why should we wait for Ubisoft to turn out more slop? Ubisoft is bull **** and we all know it.
That's absolutely right. Ubisoft is horrible and cannot be trusted to make anything useful ever. Everything they touch turns to crap. But who shall we turn to for our salvation from the utter dreck of Ubisoft?!?

Let's just petition Ubisoft to make...
:o
Really? Your solution to Ubisoft is... Ubisoft?


My other comment on this:
Ideas are easy. Implementing them in software is a bit more challenging.

Aside from that, because development is finite, every bit of effort to produce a more interactive crew/experience is effort taken away from something else that needs to be there. Add in talking to the crewman operating the hydrophone? Take out proper sound travel underwater. Add in a card game, take away from a realistic radar. Add in a meal in the wardroom, take out a tracking and plotting party. Add in a noisy engine room that adds nothing to the game other than a "Oh, cool." the one time you visit it, take out a realistic working TDC.

[Rockin Robbins]

I was thinking about someday a submarine game having more value and actually having to rise through the ranks as a sailor and having to share a bunk with several other soldiers instead of being a captain all the time.

Actually, rising through the crew to captain just wasn't possible in WWII. If you were out of officer school you might be immediately appointed to be exec or captain of a submarine. As a 90 day wonder, you knew nothing except that every man on the boat followed your orders. Many officers felt therefore privileged to enforce their ignorance on the crew with great relish and so squandered any respect they may have earned. Others, like Eugene Fluckey, treated their crews like men and both groups profited.

If you were an enlisted man, you may enter as a seaman 3rd class, earn your dolphins and advance to Chief of the Boat at best. But you were always an enlisted man, never to be an officer. You knew too much.:D

What about a more interactive submarine game? <the OP then whips out his automatic shotgun and fills the air in all directions with red hot pellets!> I was thinking about having someone petition Ubisoft to make a new sub game?

Asking Ubi to make a new sub game is like asking Enron for investment advice. I bet you thought there were development teams working on each game franchise, keeping alive old knowledge and creating new content for the next generation of the games. WRONG.

In the "drink coaster" business mode of dinosaur video game companies, the suits hire a group of liabilities called programmers. They are all the same, have no special abilities one compared to another and their job descriptions are to do what they are told in the timeframe they are given. At the expiration of that time, gobs of bits and bytes are impressed on "drink coasters" and they are shipped to stores everywhere. End of story! No more money comes in to the game company. The programmers who worked on SH3 last week are all either disposed of or reassigned to a new project Duke Nukem Does Vegas or something. They're programmers: interchangeable cogs in a drink coaster machine. If the games are playable at all, it's a bonus!

You think the SH3 programmers were reassigned to work on SH4? I was born recently, but not YESTERDAY! Heck no. Remember programmers are interchangeable drones with no personal qualities worth consideration. If you can program Pong, you can work on SH4. In fact only a couple of team members from the SH3 dev team worked on SH4. Huge chunks of code were imperfectly understood or not understood at all, and could not be optimized for the new game. Bugs could not be fixed. New ones were introduced by people who confused a submarine for a Ms Pacman powerup pellet. Oops. Doesn't matter! It's only a drink coaster. Once we sell the sucker to some hapless retailer they can burn 'em for all we care. Our job is over.

Same thing for SH5, 6, 7, etc. Can you see that with drink coaster management each iteration devolves into further chaos and inoperability? It is not an accident that SH5 is such a disaster. It is an inevitable consequence of a deeply flawed business model, a mangagement system which has no clue how to develop and profit from a franchise.

There's a better way. It's called evolution, not revolution. There should be no SH1, SH2, SH3 or SH4. There should only be Silent Hunter. There must be an income stream to continuously pay the stable team who will over the years develop, polish, innovate and perfect Silent Hunter. This means that the method of paying for the game must change. Instead of $50 for the game, disastrously falling to $10 three months later after the game is revealed to be a poorly functioning drink coaster, players could pay $5 per month. No contract. If they are happy they renew. If not they quit paying and go their way.

I have always found that people do just about exactly what you pay them for. You want to own stock and pay someone to inanely buy and sell it each month, having you lose your money to fees and commissions? That's called a stock broker and they do what you pay them to do: ruin your finances. Here a stable team can be paid from a perpetual income stream to kill bugs, introduce new features, polish, promote and make Silent Hunter the best darned game on the planet. Don't say nobody would pay $5 per week, you pay more for Coca Cola. Your cell phone gives you little or nothing in return for its $100 per month. If it were gone you'd never miss it.

Hold on....let me log into Runescape. Introduced in 2001, it's not Runescape 8, it's Runescape. It's paid for by subscription and the team that works on it is pretty static. They have the cash to bring in whatever new talent they need and keep their people. It's a community. Nobody would actually pay for that, right? Let's see......let's just count the paid subscribers on line right more: 96 servers averaging just over 1000 per, that's 96,000 subscribers on right now, a weekday during working hours. Let's pretend this is all they have.

96,000 subscribers times their subscription price of $6.95 per month means that they have a conservative income stream of $667,200 per month. Not too shabby. Actually they have MUCH more than that. So I guess you're right, the subscription model is a loser unless you want to make scads of money.

Clue: Ubi ain't up to the job.

How about we all band together and make our own sub sim

ummmmmmmm..........no

[Daniel Prates]

I actually wonder if someone from Ubisoft ever bothers to come here and check out our naggings.

Anyway, back to our "cold cow" (another expresison that makes no sense when translated to english, such as 'wed true'!)... not only RRobbins is right, also you have to ponder this: what would a low crewmen, say a planesman for instance, do all of the time he was on duty? Press a lever back and foward a couple of times a day when asked to by an officer. That was it. And he would be doing that all through the war.

Does that really sounds interesting?

[razark]

I actually wonder if someone from Ubisoft ever bothers to come here and check out our naggings.
Actually, yes. I know I've seen a couple of them. However, unless we get higher up management in here, it really doesn't make that much difference.

[Daniel Prates]

Actually, yes. I know I've seen a couple of them. However, unless we get higher up management in here, it really doesn't make that much difference.

Well, thats fair, anyway. I mean, we do complain a lot, but mostly on a purely 'spray and pray' manner, with excessive nagging and little objectivity.

If we really wanted to reach Ubisoft and bring them some points worth considering, we should elect some sort of board and bring up productive and construcive criticism - something that, in this forum, we all do in a merely superficila manner.

[Rockin Robbins]

I actually wonder if someone from Ubisoft ever bothers to come here and check out our naggings.

You mean in any official capacity outside their own personal interest? No. SH4 has been dead to them since they pushed the game out to the retailers. Another game, SH4UBM, came to life for a couple of months while they pushed it out to the retailers. Then there was no Silent Hunter developer crew. It was disbanded and all the programmers either became unemployed or worked on some first person shooter.

Silent Hunter is dead. It died the minute the retailers bought the product, even before you bought yours. Games die when the cash stops flowing into the game company. That happens weeks after publication, and before most players even purchase the game.

The company's product is little plastic disks with irrelevant bits and bytes on them. These plastic disks are sold and the game is over. The contents of the disks don't matter.

[Daniel Prates]

Games die when the cash stops flowing into the game company. That happens weeks after publication, and before most players even purchase the game.

Why? They sell it to the distribution company and then it is out of their hands?

[Armistead]

It's simple marketing and sales, they only take a title so far and that's it. Most do this, you may get some add-ons later if they can make a buck out of it.

I think they realize they have a fan base that they may create new games for such as SH5, but once it hits the shelves...game is basically dead to them.

SH4 is for sure a dead issue.

That's how they stay in business. Now, games that really hit the big time, they'll spend more time on.

[Daniel Prates]

Then SH5, which I reckon being an marginally sucessful game, may imply the end of the SH franchise alltogether?

[Sailor Steve]

That's been the opinion around here for about a year now. Any new naval sim will likely come from some other source.

[CapnScurvy]

Then SH5, which I reckon being an marginally sucessful game, may imply the end of the SH franchise alltogether?


That's been the opinion around here for about a year now. Any new naval sim will likely come from some other source.

You may be right, but I'm buying into the theory that UbiSoft will see $$ signs in their little beady eyes and shove out another sub simulation to catch up on lost revenue.

Will it be any better than the last? Probably not. As Rockin Robbins pointed out, the selling of a "disc" is the most important thing. Not the content on it!

Marketing is the most valuable tool any game producer has. Drum up as much hype as you can; release a couple of beautifully rendered screen shots; make a release date that needs to be pushed back due to the "complication of game play" and you have a gamer needing a bib to catch the drool. Once the product is sold you look for a sell-able "patch" to add to the games revenue, so you can pay the severance check of the programmers you laid off.

But, not all franchise games run this same way. An Indiana boy named David Kaemmer loved the idea of programming a game that simulated the Indianapolis 500. He and his small team developed their first title in 1989 and Electronic Arts marketed it. Creating one of the largest and most successful racing design teams around, the Papyrus Design Group. They made several titles for Indy Car, but made their largest mark with the NASCAR series of games that are still highly sought after today, even though their last title was pushed out in 2003.

Kaemmer and most of his Papyrus team, are still in the forefront of racing simulations with his partner John Henry (owner of the Boston Red Sox's) with their iRacing Internet racing franchise. You take what you love and turn it into a life's work. That's what the Submarine community needs. Programmers that have a passion for the work they do, and are content to stick with it to develop a better game year after year.

In my "man cave", I built this set up 5 years ago. I probably haven't spent 2 hours with it since then. Seems writing on these forums and piddling with mods for SH4 has retained my interests.

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/crawlee/RacingSetup_Uploadable.jpg

[Rockin Robbins]

Perfect example, Capn! EA Games and NASCAR actually forced stores to remove unsold copies of NASCAR 2003, still the greatest NASCAR simulation by far, from store shelves! Today there is a very active community of NASCAR 2003 players and racing teams, my brother being one of the most rabid. In fact, it's about the only reason he owns a computer.

Kaemmer saw exactly what I was talking about. People do what they are paid to do. He made sure he and his people are paid to produce the best racing simulation in the world. They have unlimited time to work and perfect it. You think EA or Ubi or anyone else in the world has a chance against them? And their game lives on-line, continuously updated, continuously opening the quality gap between it and the drink coasters.

When that happens to submarine simulation, we'll see progress beyond what we have. Until then we'll look back on SH4 as the best there ever was. SH3 fanatics will still be looking back and most likely playing it in five years too.

You listening Dan? Silent Hunter is more than just an assignment to you. If Kaemmer can do it as a programmer and team leader, so can you. If you don't have the knowledge, you can find it--your skill is as a team leader. Somebody has to destroy the drink coaster mentality and the best way is to make bushels of money while doing something you love. The game companies won't do it. They're dinosaurs. Slam 'em in the tail with a sledge hammer and it's a couple of months before the head says ouch. By that time it will be too late for them.

[Sailor Steve]

You may be right, but I'm buying into the theory that UbiSoft will see $$ signs in their little beady eyes and shove out another sub simulation to catch up on lost revenue.

Will it be any better than the last? Probably not. As Rockin Robbins pointed out, the selling of a "disc" is the most important thing. Not the content on it!
New Subsim from Ubisoft! New advertising campaign: "Not like the others! This one actually works! Honest!"
:rotfl2:

Nice setup, by the way.

[Fish40]

Why not see if Shockwave might want to bite at the oppotunity. They totally revamped BOBWOV and CFS3, why not SH4? What the guys of the BOB development group has done with that sim is amazing. Although the game engine is no spring chicken, I find myself playing BOB more than IL2 1946 with U.P. Forget COD for now. All it has is good looks going for it now. What a company like Shockwave might do, plus our modders, we may come a step closer to realising our dream sim. Just a thought:hmmm:

[Anthony W.]

I'm really sick of Ubisoft. They stole 10 bucks from me by purging their records when they updated their site.

I think Cascade Game Foundry is who we should look to. I know they only do Flight Sim, but maybe we can turn them a bit.

[Daniel Prates]

You listening Dan? Silent Hunter is more than just an assignment to you. If Kaemmer can do it as a programmer and team leader, so can you.

You mean me, man?! :88) Damn, I'm no programmer. Still, I try to contribute as much as I can, enlightening those who know less than me and absorving what I can from those who know more. And keeping the ball rolling.

Also, I do agree that, since SH is an open-source game, we will manage to give it a long afterlife, regardless of what Ubisoft may wish for it. I mean ALL OF WE, even the 'wed true' guy, everybody. All criticism and suggestions are usefull, ranging from small ideas from the hardcore modding that allowed all supermods we use today. BTW, most of them more than doubled the game's output, so somehow it is fair to say that we've done more than the development team to get it right.

Funny, isn't it? Maybe what we lack is some order or organization. I mentioned this earlier these days (in this thread or some other). We nag a lot but we lack some objectivity, except for some enlightned ones here, who came up with excellent supermods all by themselves or with the help of a small circle.

Maybe we should aim for a larger entity, to take control of the "SH" legacy and try to keep it evolving for the decades to come. Hell, just the other day I was playing TIE-FIGHTER originally designed for Win95, which itself was an improvement of a dos game... with a proper organized comunity (lucasarts has given it up completely) it may very well live forever, with people playing it decades from now.

Why can't we do the same? With the rigorosity of method, with aims, with goals? We can make the SH franchies live forever if we want. Ubisoft will eventyally release it to the abandonware void sooner or later. Better than that, we can make it increasingly better over the years. We already are doing it now, only un-organizedly. why not take a bold stem and organize some form of SILENT HUNTER ETERNAL MAINTAINANCE COMUNITY or something?

[Sailor Steve]

You mean me, man?! :88)
He meant Dan Dimitrescu, AKA Elanaiba, team leader for SH4 and SH5. He's Romanian, he's friendly, those of us who were in Houston for the 2008 meeting and Copenhagen in 2009 got to know him and like him. He could put together the team to do something like this.

[Rockin Robbins]

Oops, forgot there was a Dan already in the conversation. Sorry Daniel. Steve's right on the person I was talking about. I don't like the way Dan took SH5 at all, but that is no reflection on his love for the genre, his programming and team-building ability.

And when you have an evolving game OF COURSE you're going to make some missteps. But unlike in the SH5 debacle, your mistakes are not written in stone and ideas can be massaged, changed, sold (sometimes people just need time to get used to something), evolved into great things. When you're paid to tinker good stuff happens, modules are properly documented, every piece of the software is understood by multiple people. It can be a whole new world.

[Daniel Prates]

He could put together the team to do something like this.

So the idea is not entirely bad?

[Dogfish40]

RR, Right on the "Money" as usual.
I have little gripes when it comes to any games like this as it's lucky they even make it out at all anymore (or survive the test of time till a new generation of players picks it up and keeps it alive). Wanna' look at something astounding? Check out the date of the first posts for SH4! This thing has lasted quite a while for being a turkey. I'm just playing a bit of Devil's advocate here, UBISOFT could have developed a new version of "PAC-MAN the Barbarian" instead of a sub-sim at all, and we'd be out there complaining about the latest version of "Medal of Honor" (wanna' talk about a turkey) or some such junk. I agree there are times when I would love to hear more sound, much more crew order's, command repeats and just plain human noise. I'd also like to be able to shut it off with a keystroke 'cause I don't wanna' hear someone sipping coffee while I'm setting up a carrier shot. Anyway, I read one of the old posts of a guy that had worked on this sim, his voice is actually the one who says "Passing thermal Layer". Read his posts sometime if you can find them and you'll have a good picture of what the programmers were up against.
With all it's flaws...I still love this game.
Good Hunting
D40 :salute:

[AVGWarhawk]

I have to admit the replay value of the game is quite high for me. New mods and new patrols all the time. :yeah:

[Rockin Robbins]

Don't get me wrong. SH4 is not a turkey. While not being perfect, it is a solid game with amazing features, great replay value, designed in modability, good graphics, decent variety of foes, pretty good replication of TDC, periscope, torpedo action, navigational and charting tools. Heck, it's been out now since 2007 and still commands a portion of my time!

However, its very success in our view is failure on the part of the game companies. They want a popcorn game: you munch it and it's gone and time to spend another $50. A game with staying power like Silent Hunter 4 is actually a liability for them because while you are actively interested in the game you bought five years ago you are not looking to buy another game to take its place.

Were the sales numbers the same, Silent Hunter 5 would be considered by Ubi to be a much more successful release because players quickly saw its limitations and lost interest, just like they are supposed to. But we're sitting here all fat and happy with the best submarine simulation ever released and won't buy another submarine simulation that isn't demonstrated to be much, much better. Loyal customers are Ubi's worst enemy!

That is the same thing that happened with the release of Silent Hunter 4. Thousands of people, especially in Europe, were happy with a game which was a complete revolution in submarine simulation. It was ten times better than any previous work. They had and have great satisfaction with its detail, playability and replay value. Along comes SH4. It's a little better. But a little better, while losing some of the things that worked fine in SH3 is not enough motivation for them to jump ship and invest in a new product. Evolutionary, just a little improvement, progress doesn't work for drink coaster games.

When loyal customers are hurtful to your business model the fault is with you and you must change the way you do business. Customers ALWAYS eventually get what they want and what we want is a great game that we can play for a long time. Presently there's no money in that for a game company. They're the ones who are wrong, not us.

They will make bucketloads of money when the things we want result in income to them. It's up to them to meet our wants and needs. In the meantime our money stays in our pockets.

[CapnScurvy]

Like Double R states, this game is far from being a dust bin candidate. It has great potential even though there are definite limitations to just how much we can do with it. The hard coded limitations do get into the way when thinking about a modification that would be nice to try. But, the replay value is one of the best advantages of any game as it gets "long in the tooth". Silent Hunter 4 has this advantage.

I understand Elanaiba problems. His team has the desire to make a substantial sub simulation game, but having the ability to pay the bills while pulling in little revenue during the games production is what keeps these small independent developers from striking out on their own. Tying yourself to a large game distributor like UbiSoft keeps the bread on the table until the day they come-a-knocking to take what you have (ready or not) and push it out the door for release. I don't envy these guys one bit. You tie yourself up with a game distributor to get through the lean times, but they "own you" when it comes to their idea of what's ready for the public.

I would have loved to been the fly on the wall in late 2006 when UbiSoft came to Romania to collect their "content" for the soon to be released SH4. I'll bet there was a lot of gnashing of teeth over just what was ready, what was not, and what was never to be. My hat's off to the developers. They did the best they could under the conditions their employer allowed, and have a great legacy of a game for us to enjoy. :salute:

Should we dream that a development team could push themselves through the lean times while making a sub simulation worth their hard efforts. Heck yes! Will it happen? That's only a question time can tell.

[Gerald]

@Steve,Well,this is a nice and good Avatar :DL

[Dogfish40]

Don't get me wrong. SH4 is not a turkey. While not being perfect, it is a solid game with amazing features, great replay value, designed in modability, good graphics, decent variety of foes, pretty good replication of TDC, periscope, torpedo action, navigational and charting tools. Heck, it's been out now since 2007 and still commands a portion of my time!

.

RR,
I hope you know that I agree %100 with everything you've said and I always have a great deal of respect for all yer posts. It's the subject that I'm commenting. The interaction of the game could be so much better, but these guys just didn't have the time. Just the fact that the crew voices are the same as SH3 should be testament to that. Anyway, Yes UbiSoft ain't makin' no more money on SH4, but I just hope that our "modders" out there keep it up so we can have some of the ideas that come up in the posts.
Cheers again. :salute:
D40

[I'm goin' down]

Like Double R states, ...

"Double R." That is a GOOD ONE!!!:haha::haha::haha::yeah:

Yep, partner, last summer when the good ol' boys at the Double R went fishin', they hooked the biggest, meanest, figtn'st submarine you'all ever seen. It took 'em all day to land the sucker, and just as they were about to haul it ashore, a Great White from the Joe Haifisch mod gobbled 'er up.