Israelis protesting

[Castout]

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/israel-protest-leaders-prepare-for-third-weekend-of-mass-rallies-1.377242

I thought most Israelis were doing good and were prospering. Am I wrong?

Increase in prices could be a signal of an overcharged economy since when many people are doing well economically it tends to push prices up which in return that pushes back the quality of living marginally that otherwise could have been gained. In effect obligating any Israeli to be doing above average to enjoy any increase in standard of living even when that average is increasing.

Example would be Australia. Prices there could make me mad. I'm no expert though I solely judge by their PC game prices LOL.


Any Israeli here that could offer his insight on the matter?

[MH]

Israeli economy is doing relatively well.
The protest are about high housing prices and indirect taxation which is the highest in the world.
Israeli average citizen has a lot of burden and obligations with relatively small revenue compared to other countries.
Specially in Europe.
Netanyahu did some good things to Israeli economy when moved from socialist government union mafia economy to free market but over stretched it a little bit.
While some of the protests are honest and justified there is a lot of political anti "likud party" leftist never land BS in them as well.
No... im not "likud" or Netanyahu fan boy.

It must be the Egyptian spies as well :rotfl2:

[MH]

Here is some sane take on this.



The protesters’ demands fit snugly into the populist empowerment-polemics rubric.

Talkbacks (7)
After several weeks of generalized agitation for nebulous “social justice,” Tel Aviv’s Rothschild Boulevard tent-protesters and student union representatives have hammered out their joint list of demands. Their qualifications to fix Israel’s entire socioeconomic system aside, their catalogue of demands is so all-encompassing, and so radical, that no government of any political persuasion could plausibly meet it.

Regrettably, therefore, it must be judged as more populist than serious.

Populist discourse pits “the people” against “the elite” and ballyhoos sweeping, often unrealistic changes in the sociopolitical system. Because these are so across the board, they’re bound to include something for everyone and thus superficially appeal to broad, unspecified segments of society.

Claiming to sound the undiluted voice of “average folks” versus oppressive and privileged classes can be intoxicating. The protesters’ demands fit snugly into the populist empowerment-polemics rubric.

Headlined “Guidelines for a New Social and Economic Agenda,” these demands include reducing indirect taxes while hiking direct and capital gains levies; investing surplus revenues in social programs; annulling anti-bureaucracy legislation geared to speed up construction (which, protesters, aver would benefit contractors); more mortgage and rent subsidies; free education from age three months through university; overhauling Israel’s medical infrastructure; halting the privatization of welfare and mental health facilities; and cancelling private-contractor participation in public-sector projects.

No cost-estimates for the above have been furnished, and no timetables.

Some postulates are incontestable. Indirect taxes are regressive. Nonetheless, do we want to return to the 80- percent income-tax brackets that once stymied our economy? Tycoons, with armies of accountants and lawyers, will find loopholes. The middle classes, in whose name the protests are mounted, will inevitably be hard hit.

Privatization must indeed have its limits, especially when it concerns services liable to be misused by big business. Mental health facilities and mother-and-child clinics certainly come into this category.

Overhauling the medical infrastructure is worthy; but how to achieve it is another matter. When things are easier said than done, we enter the sphere of demagoguery.

The anti-contractor clauses are cases in point. If private contractors are barred from various programs, things will get worse, not better – as they were in the Israel of the 1950s, when shoddy, undersized future slums were put up by government/Histadrut functionaries. Smallish flats built to please young singles won’t do when they start families.

Subsidies are expedient, but who’ll foot the bill? The same goes for “educating” three-month-old infants – a euphemism for diaper-changing services. Such largesse with taxpayer funds exists nowhere, and it’s doubtful that any country can afford it – least of all Israel, which is, inter alia, lumbered with existential burdens unequalled anywhere.

Decades ago, late finance minister Yigal Hurwitz responded to demands for exorbitant welfare expenditures by turning his pockets inside-out and shouting “I’ve got nothing!” He also called on “all crazies” to “get down off the roof.” Today, there’s nobody in high places with his fearless straight-talking and earthy grit. Even if many current higher-ups feel Hurvitz’s outspoken pronouncements remain valid, they won’t dare say so.

The current spate of social protest is so intrinsically populist and has been so hyped by the media that anyone who dares to object will be commiting PR suicide. Entertainer Margalit Tzan’ani, who boldly questioned the protest instigators’ goals, was so pilloried that she had to backtrack just a day later. No politician missed the message.

By definition, populism is popular, but it is frequently irrational and introduces instability into the political process, no matter how enticing or compelling its rhetoric appears on first hearing.

Critical appraisal is mandated from us all, and especially from the government, which, despite its natural craving for popularity, must not give in to demands that are bound to unbalance the collective budget and leave us far worse off than we are now.

It’s not easy to be fiscally responsible in the face of a seemingly grassroots outcry. It is, on the other hand, easy to end up where Greece, Portugal, Ireland and Spain currently are.

We‘re moaning about the marmalade, not about the bread and butter. Things can get a lot worse if unemployment ensues as a result of overspending. In Spain , 45% of young people are jobless. We don’t want to be dragged down that path

..............

[Castout]

Israeli economy is doing relatively well.


But are the majority of Israelis doing well? :hmmm:

[Tribesman]

I thought most Israelis were doing good and were prospering. Am I wrong?

Look at the figures, none of it has ever added up. What might have been a possibly viable state is being thown away on projects that make the state completely unviable.

[Castout]

Look at the figures, none of it has ever added up. What might have been a possibly viable state is being thown away on projects that make the state completely unviable.

You saying the figures were fabricated? How they never add up exactly?

Their stock market and currency certainly reflect their well performing economy as well as their consumer confidence index among other economic measuring stats.

250,000 Israelis are now protesting, a very high number considering how small Israel is as a state. For each one on the street there may be at least several others who may have the same sentiment but wouldn't come to the streets.

If I were to guess then I'd guess the well performing economy has brought increase prices and costs, the same thing that is happening in Australia and China for example.

[Tribesman]

You saying the figures were fabricated?

No, I say the figures don't add up in terms of sustainability and havn't done since first Aliyah and as time progresses following political action has made them even worse

[Castout]

No, I say the figures don't add up in terms of sustainability and havn't done since first Aliyah and as time progresses following political action has made them even worse


But they are still enjoying growth and even bigger growth can be expected to come thanks to the gas field.

[MH]

But are the majority of Israelis doing well? :hmmm:

Its all relative.
We are not living as well as some western countries because paying indirect taxes and expenses that are between the highest in the world.
Very little of those taxes return to average citizens.
People are sort of tired of paying taxes like Sweden spending like in Dubai and getting social benefits like in USA.
(not really like USA but close)
Its mostly because Israeli high defence spending vs relatively small market.
Still real issue is housing coasts which are unrealistic everything else its background noise of all different groups.

[Castout]

Its all relative.
We are not living as well as some western countries because paying indirect taxes and expenses that are between the highest in the world.
Very little of those taxes return to average citizens.
People are sort of tired of paying taxes like Sweden spending like in Dubai and getting social benefits like in USA.
(not really like USA but close)
Its mostly because Israeli high defence spending vs relatively small market.
Still real issue is housing coasts which are unrealistic everything else its background noise of all different groups.

You Israelis? I always thought you were Singaporean (no offense) :DL

It seems you're not getting to the streets. I got the impression you're young. So . . . you're not one of those coming to the streets? Things are doing well for you and you have no objection?

[MH]

You Israelis? I always thought you were Singaporean (no offense) :DL

It seems you're not getting to the streets. I got the impression you're young. So . . . you're not one of those coming to the streets? Things are doing well for you and you have no objection?

Why Singaporean-i missed the point here...:hmmm:
Corrupted and heretic?:D

I'm not young but try to stay so lol.
I work in two jobs in private sector and don't have time for that.
Got divorced have to start all over again.
Life is not that bad here but sometimes you have to bust your ass and i hate it lol.:O:

If things don't work out i get myself a nice house in west bank-just to piss off Tribesman lol

[Castout]

If things don't work out i get myself a nice house in west bank-just to piss off Tribesman lol

LOL :har:

[Tribesman]

But they are still enjoying growth and even bigger growth can be expected to come thanks to the gas field.
The gas field development needs agreements with 4 other countries. two of those won't agree with each other over a third country and the fourth country won't agree with Israel.
Besides which you have to take out all the exploration and development costs then all the tax write offs before you start to count it as real.

If things don't work out i get myself a nice house in west bank-just to piss off Tribesman lol
It is people playing silly buggers moving into the occupied territory which is causing the state to fail. Yet another demonstration that those who claim to support the state are often its worst enemies

[Castout]

I think I got the picture though with well economic performance in the background it seems a combination of high taxes due to prevalent war conditions unique to Israel AND added prices hike due to monopolistic business tendencies are upsetting the middle class who see themselves being abandoned by their government which is seen as allowing big businesses to set the tone to Israel monopolistic trades.


Or maybe it was the Egyptian spies after all LOL.

[Penguin]

Wow! 300.000 people protesting on Saturday! :o
A day after 300,000 march for social justice, Netanyahu government pledges change http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/a-day-after-300-000-march-for-social-justice-netanyahu-government-pledges-change-1.377388

In relation:
The biggest demonstration in West Germany in 1982 had 500000 participants @ 60 million inhabitants. The biggest in East Germany, in November 1989 had the same size @16 million inhabitants - though the East Germans went onto the street for a radical change - and Honecker was even more stubborn than Bibi ;)
So this is huge.

I must admit that I do not get the point of the demands of banning private contractors doing , as long as the work and wage standards are met, I see it as something which helps to prevent corruption.

The privatization of the health sector is something, Germany has done in the past 2 decades. It was really a "success": Health spendings rose, for the citizens as for the state and the work conditions (and wages) for the ones who work in this sector became worse...:-? I hope the Israelis are smart enough to stand against the fairy tales of improving the health sector through privatization...


Very little of those taxes return to average citizens.
People are sort of tired of paying taxes like Sweden spending like in Dubai and getting social benefits like in USA.
(not really like USA but close)

sounds nearly like Germany...:know:

Can you give us examples of housing costs in Israel? I heard especially Tel Aviv must be insanely expensive.
In my town the average rent is 7something € per m² . At least tghe statistic says so, good luck finding anything at this price. In ok parts of the town, you pay about 10-15€, while the rent for apartments in Yuppie quarters can be 100-300€ per m² :o


I'm not young but try to stay so lol.

Hey! :stare: We're about the same age! I prefer to say I am in my late youth! :D

[MH]

Wow! 300.000 people protesting on Saturday! :o
A day after 300,000 march for social justice, Netanyahu government pledges change http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/a-day-after-300-000-march-for-social-justice-netanyahu-government-pledges-change-1.377388

In relation:
The biggest demonstration in West Germany in 1982 had 500000 participants @ 60 million inhabitants. The biggest in East Germany, in November 1989 had the same size @16 million inhabitants - though the East Germans went onto the street for a radical change - and Honecker was even more stubborn than Bibi ;)
So this is huge.


Yes its big....
The ME tsunami arrived to Israel it seems.:D
Lots of demands are unrealistic and can never be met in current situation.
Anyone that feels unhappy about something joins the crowd with ridiculous demands.
Israel is not part of ME peaceful community yet so the country must remain warmonger armed to the teeth for time to come:woot:and its coasts money.

Still some consideration for social needs is needed as well.
Again the main issue is housing which is expensive.
You would have to pay 2.5m NIS for some decent flat in Tel Aviv region-nothing fancy and big.
There are northern Israel and south peripheries which are much cheaper but employment is an issue there.
Students need some better benefits.
Lots of students after doing 3 year in combat units and at least 4 weeks reserve service a year(sometimes interrupting exams) have to work like mad to pay for university and rent.....
That is if not having reach folks.
Making life easier here would be welcomed.


I must admit that I do not get the point of the demands of banning private contractors doing , as long as the work and wage standards are met, I see it as something which helps to prevent corruption.


Privet contracting its a way for government institution and some big companies to avoid providing benefits otherwise given to direct employees.
Some of contractors like to stretch the boundaries as well.
I would say its the opposite side of the coin.
On one hand you have government union workers who earn outrageous sums of money because they keep whole country as a hostage.
Example is port workers who when going on strike freeze whole export import market.
On another hand you have contractor employees who sometimes get the minimum benefits.
This whole issue need balancing legislation.
The issue is about the employees who are on lower side of food chain can make decent living or not.



The privatization of the health sector is something, Germany has done in the past 2 decades. It was really a "success": Health spendings rose, for the citizens as for the state and the work conditions (and wages) for the ones who work in this sector became worse...:-? I hope the Israelis are smart enough to stand against the fairy tales of improving the health sector through privatization...


No one is seriously considering privatisation style USA of health care i think.
Its just again about the medical staff salaries and benefits which need to be upgraded.
At least close in half to port workers lol



Hey! :stare: We're about the same age! I prefer to say I am in my late youth! :D

:yeah:

[Penguin]

Tzhanks for the long answer, I am a little smarter now.

Yes, spending a large amount for defense seems necessary - as long as you don't get any friendly neighbors moving in. :DL

Wow, the price for an apartment seems crazy, for that money you can buy a real luxury apartment in my town. A normal apartment for a family would be about half the price.

I get the point with the contractors - this happens here too, the contractor gets a subcontroctor, who gets a sub, etc. At the end you have some illegals who work for some euros a day and often do not even receive the money...:-? That's one of the problems if you don't have minimum wage, as we don't have here.
Therefore I meant: when the standards are met, then I see the contractors as an alternative to bureaucratic inefficency, but I have no solution, I am far away from being a politician, lol.

Even after the privatization of the medical institutions here, we haven't abolished public healthcare. The problem is that private institutions get fed by public money. Surely they do not have any interest to work cost-efficent, as long as the euros get pumped into their arses... However explaining the German health system, would be the same as our tax system. Nobody understands it, it would take years to try to desribe and I would get insane about it...:D

[MH]

Tzhanks for the long answer, I am a little smarter now.



Velcome herr penguin:D

The spirit of "viva la revolution" is not as great as "haaretz" would like us us to believe.
With current economical and political uncertainty not much of it will be turned into reality anyway-yep im negative.
Note that most of the happening is in Tel Aviv.
I'm not sure that people there would like to return to 70s economy and more equal but very modest lifestyle.
Giving every body good start is one thing but subsidising everything is another.
Interesting if those students will be ready to pay 50% or more direct tax rates in the future.
Probably not since they demonstrate against taxes too.