F16's Scrambled As Pilot, 75, Triggers Obama Alert

[Feuer Frei!]

A 75-year-old aviation enthusiast whose plane strayed into restricted airspace during a presidential visit, prompting fighter jets to be scrambled, has brushed off the incident.
Two F-16s intercepted Myrtle Rose's aircraft as she took to the skies over the suburbs of Chicago city on Wednesday afternoon.
The widow told US media she thought the warplanes were just admiring her plane.
The agency which oversees air safety in America said it was investigating.


Because of President Barack Obama's visit to Chicago on Wednesday to attend a fundraiser marking his 50th birthday, restrictions were in place forbidding private pilots to come within 30 miles (48km) of the city's O'Hare Airport.

Ms Rose told the Associated Press news agency that before flying her Piper J-3 Cub aircraft she normally checks for any airspace restrictions on her computer, but it was not working properly that day.
"I hadn't flown in over a week," Ms Rose told AP. "It was a beautiful afternoon."
She also said she did not have her radio on. Jets were scrambled from Toledo, Ohio, when air traffic controllers were unable to contact her.
Asked what she thought when the F-16s appeared, Ms Rose told AP: "I thought, 'Oh, well, they're just looking at how cute the Cub is.'"
When Ms Rose landed on an airstrip on the outskirts of Chicago, police were waiting.
The North American Aerospace Defense Command (Norad), which scrambled the two warplanes, said there was no excuse for not knowing about the airspace restrictions.
"The biggest thing to keep in mind is that when F-16s come screaming up to you, they are probably trying to tell you something," said Norad spokeswoman Stacey Knott.
Ms Rose said she had filled in a report with the Federal Aviation Administration, which said she could face a fine, a pilot's licence suspension, or no action at all.


SOURCE (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-14428377)

5 August 2011 Last updated at 22:53

[Platapus]

The FAA and the military have no sense of humour concerning prohibited air space.

It is the PICs responsibility.

[Torplexed]

There was a similar incident in Seattle last year. A float plane who's pilot was unaware of the President being in Seattle for a fund-raiser wandered into restricted air space causing two jets to be scrambled from Portland. The resulting sonic bombs over populated areas set off quite a scare.

Going by TV news footage the pilot spent quite a few hours sitting at a table in the float plane airport with a Secret Service agent going over his flight plan, background and licenses.

[breadcatcher101]

You've got to admit those Piper Cubs are cute little planes, I am glad they didn't shoot Aunt Myrtle down.

Doesn't it seem a bit extreme to shut down private planes down within 30 miles where ever the president happens to be? I know of the post 9/11 thing and all but come on.

He came through not far from here recently and traffic was tied up and to top that our cell phones were jammed which didn't please me at all. What if I had to make an urgent call or something?

He has SS all around him for protection. That should be enough.

[Platapus]

I remember flying civilian airplanes in South Korea. Not a good idea. The South Koreans have moving prohibited zones that they don't tell you about until after you violate them.

They kinda like to discourage private pilots in South Korea. :yep:

[Rilder]

I'd like to know how much damage you could possibly do with a Piper Cub? I'm pretty sure even if you smashed it directly into the president it wouldn't hurt him. :rotfl2:

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Platabus could you as a pilot answer to small question? It was mentioned that there is restricted airspace of 30 miles in diameter. From edge of restriced airspace how long it would take for Piper Cub to reach center? If we assume that president is in that location and that aircraft is flying in relatively low altitude, how much warning time Secret Service would have?

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

I'd like to know how much damage you could possibly do with a Piper Cub? I'm pretty sure even if you smashed it directly into the president it wouldn't hurt him. :rotfl2:
Well plane itself may not be heavy enough but I'm pretty sure that it can carry enough explosives to do the job...

[Platapus]

Platabus could you as a pilot answer to small question? It was mentioned that there is restricted airspace of 30 miles in diameter. From edge of restriced airspace how long it would take for Piper Cub to reach center? If we assume that president is in that location and that aircraft is flying in relatively low altitude, how much warning time Secret Service would have?

First of all, it has been over 20 years since I last flew so I am not a knowledgeable source for the size of prohibited airspace. There are other members much more current and knowledgeable than I am on these.

Taking your 30 mile diameter circle as given, it would depend on the exact model of the J3. J3's had different engines. But let's assume an "average" J3 speed of between 65 and 75 knots

To get to the center of your 30 mile circle (15 mile) would take about 12 minutes. A little less if the pilot is diving and has no intention of surviving.

The payload of the J3 is about 500 pounds. That's a lot of explosive that could be carried.

Not saying that a J3 is the uber weapon of choice, but I would hardly dismiss the threat of a J3 in the hands of a dedicated Bad Guy.

[Jimbuna]

First of all, it has been over 20 years since I last flew so I am not a knowledgeable source for the size of prohibited airspace. There are other members much more current and knowledgeable than I am on these.

Taking your 30 mile diameter circle as given, it would depend on the exact model of the J3. J3's had different engines. But let's assume an "average" J3 speed of between 65 and 75 knots

To get to the center of your 30 mile circle (15 mile) would take about 12 minutes. A little less if the pilot is diving and has no intention of surviving.

The payload of the J3 is about 500 pounds. That's a lot of explosive that could be carried.

Not saying that a J3 is the uber weapon of choice, but I would hardly dismiss the threat of a J3 in the hands of a dedicated Bad Guy.

Rgr that....a cunning and effective method of delivery to someone determined to get past security measures already in place on the ground.

[Platapus]

I wonder if modern heat seeking missiles would even lock on to a J3?

Especially when you have 10 minutes. That's not a long time, especially when some of that time will be spent evaluating the thread and deploying defenses.

Imagine a J3 diving with the engine off how would you shoot it down?

Would a stinger type weapon be able to lock on to a stopped J3 engine?

Small arms fire is probably not going to do it.

You can poke a lot of holes in a J3 and unless you hit the main wing beam it might keep on its ballistic course. I suppose a 20 mm round on the engine or the explosive payload would take care of it, but how hard would that be to accomplish?

I hope the USSS has already figured this out. :o

[mobucks]

Kinda negligent to turn off your radio in a private plane. Bad airmen(woman)ship if you ask me.

Its nice to know at least the people in place for security do their jobs.

[Platapus]

It is important to recognize that this was not some prohibited zone in the middle of nowhere. This was centered on O'hare Airport, which gets a little busy at times. O'hare is the third busiest airport in the world.

What was she doing flying within 30 miles of O'Hare without her radio on? Even if it is not required due to airspace designations for that area/altitude, wouldn't you think it would be a good idea to have it on?

Besides, part of the Private Pilot's education is non-radio air intercepts. When these F-16's intercepted her, they did it in an specific manner that communicates their intention. She must have a pretty high self image if she thinks that F-16's would fly close to her just to admire her and her aircraft. Planes don't do that, they maintain separation, especially military jets and civilian props.

I think this lady needs to lose her ticket until she goes through some remedial training. She does not seem to have the judgment expected of a pilot operating in crowded airspace.

Here is a nice FAA document that describes Temporary Flight Restricted Zones and at the end of the document covers the interception procedure including non-radio communication.

www.faa.gov/pilots/safety/notams_tfr/media/tfrweb.pdf

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Thank you Platabus. I read about Piper J-3 and I understood that its cruise speed is just 65 knots which is about 75 mph (121 km/h). Wouldn't it make sense to fly in low altitude in same direction with highways and try to make aircraft to look like being just one more car speeding in road for radar operator?

[Platapus]

I am sure there are advantages of approaching at all altitudes. Not being an suicidal terrorist, I can't opine on which would be the best. :D

Since the J3 could legally approach until the edge of the TFR zone, I would imagine a higher altitude for the dive speed might be better. The lower altitude makes you more vulnerable to small arms fire and kills the ballistic trajectory option.

It is an intriguing problem to consider.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

I am sure there are advantages of approaching at all altitudes. Not being an suicidal terrorist, I can't opine on which would be the best. :D

Since the J3 could legally approach until the edge of the TFR zone, I would imagine a higher altitude for the dive speed might be better. The lower altitude makes you more vulnerable to small arms fire and kills the ballistic trajectory option.

It is an intriguing problem to consider.
Little strategist and tactician in me started thinking options of how to execute attack and how to prevent it. Currently it looks like that having radar directed quad 40 mm Bofors right next from presidents limo would be quite nice to have. :hmmm:

[CaptainMattJ.]

Bofors? Someone is living in the past :up:.

Its all about the radar-guided Dual vulcan platform firing 20mm High Explosive rounds.

Theres no comparison. Youll be lucky if anyone can find half of your body parts after that thing literally shreds you like paper. not to mention your aircraft, which will look like swiss cheese on a bad day

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Bofors? Someone is living in the past :up:.

Its all about the radar-guided Dual vulcan platform firing 20mm High Explosive rounds.

Theres no comparison. Youll be lucky if anyone can find half of your body parts after that thing literally shreds you like paper. not to mention your aircraft, which will look like swiss cheese on a bad day
If I need a gun I take Bofors, if I need a sewing machine I take Vulcan. :D

[mobucks]

I would fly next to her wing and tip the old bat sideways like pilots used to do to the V2 rockets in WW2. No ammunition used that way.

[Platapus]

It was not all that long ago that there were still Hawk Missile sites around Dulles Airport. One could see the mounds from the highway but I imagine few knew what they were for.

Then about 10 years ago, they were all taken down,

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

It was not all that long ago that there were still Hawk Missile sites around Dulles Airport. One could see the mounds from the highway but I imagine few knew what they were for.

Then about 10 years ago, they were all taken down,
About 10 years ago? Do you remember was that before or after 9/11?

[Platapus]

They were taken down before 9/11 so it must have been longer than 10 years. I was still military at that time so it was probably in the late 1990's.

I don't think there was any active decision to take down the Hawk sites, they had been abandoned for many many years, it was more leave them up until we need to take them down for other construction.

Which is what happened. That part of airport property was graded for something and gone were the Hawk mounds. I don't know if there are still any old mounds left on the less accessible portions of the airport.

It would be interesting to see the Air Defense plans for Washington DC during the cold war.

[Jimbuna]

I wonder if modern heat seeking missiles would even lock on to a J3?

I hope the USSS has already figured this out. :o


Possibly radar guided? :hmmm:

[MH]

Maybe optical image recognition....:ping:

[Torplexed]

They were taken down before 9/11 so it must have been longer than 10 years. I was still military at that time so it was probably in the late 1990's.

I don't think there was any active decision to take down the Hawk sites, they had been abandoned for many many years, it was more leave them up until we need to take them down for other construction.

Which is what happened. That part of airport property was graded for something and gone were the Hawk mounds. I don't know if there are still any old mounds left on the less accessible portions of the airport.

It would be interesting to see the Air Defense plans for Washington DC during the cold war.

In the 1950s there was a ring of Nike missile bases around Seattle. The closest one to me is currently used as the Vashon Island Equestrian Park/Nike Events Center. The launch area was leveled off, covered with dirt and now is used as a riding area. Much to my surprise, there is a complete Nike Ajax on the ground next to the assembly building: missile, booster and rail, in original paint with the addition of a Peter Max-ish rainbow on the tail. :D

[Platapus]

Possibly radar guided? :hmmm:

The RCS of a J3 head on would be significant

Maybe optical image recognition....:ping:

That would be the best. Do we have any ManPads that use that system? I am not a Manpad guy.

[Tribesman]

I would fly next to her wing and tip the old bat sideways like pilots used to do to the V2 rockets in WW2. No ammunition used that way.

Damn fast planes they must have had in WW2:03:

[Platapus]

Damn fast planes they must have had in WW2:03:

Especially when those small tail fins.

[mobucks]

sorry, it was the V-1 where they did that.

heres a pic from wikipedia of a spitfire tipping a v-1

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/96/Spitfire_Tipping_V-1_Flying_Bomb.jpg/220px-Spitfire_Tipping_V-1_Flying_Bomb.jpg

[Krauter]

It is important to recognize that this was not some prohibited zone in the middle of nowhere. This was centered on O'hare Airport, which gets a little busy at times. O'hare is the third busiest airport in the world.

What was she doing flying within 30 miles of O'Hare without her radio on? Even if it is not required due to airspace designations for that area/altitude, wouldn't you think it would be a good idea to have it on?

Besides, part of the Private Pilot's education is non-radio air intercepts. When these F-16's intercepted her, they did it in an specific manner that communicates their intention. She must have a pretty high self image if she thinks that F-16's would fly close to her just to admire her and her aircraft. Planes don't do that, they maintain separation, especially military jets and civilian props.

I think this lady needs to lose her ticket until she goes through some remedial training. She does not seem to have the judgment expected of a pilot operating in crowded airspace.

Here is a nice FAA document that describes Temporary Flight Restricted Zones and at the end of the document covers the interception procedure including non-radio communication.

www.faa.gov/pilots/safety/notams_tfr/media/tfrweb.pdf

Agree whole heartedly. Just seems negligent and really stupid after reading her comments...

[Jimbuna]

Damn fast planes they must have had in WW2:03:

LOL :DL

sorry, it was the V-1 where they did that.

heres a pic from wikipedia of a spitfire tipping a v-1

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/96/Spitfire_Tipping_V-1_Flying_Bomb.jpg/220px-Spitfire_Tipping_V-1_Flying_Bomb.jpg

Well corrected sir :DL