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Feuer Frei!
07-27-11, 08:17 AM
Four years ago, an experienced gun owner in Pembroke Pines (http://www.sun-sentinel.com/topic/us/florida/broward-county/pembroke-pines-PLGEO100100403220000.topic) named Reynaldo Gonzalez made an exception he will forever regret.

His 15-year-old daughter, Yamel Trigo, begged to show off his guns, usually locked away except when Gonzalez went to the range, to a visiting teenage cousin. Out came the guns and a camera, Yamel recalls. The cousin posed with a .22-caliber rifle, which Yamel's dad thought was unloaded.
The cousin put her finger on the trigger — something safety-minded gun owners know never to do unless you mean to fire. The rifle went off. The bullet hit Yamel in the neck and left her a quadriplegic.


Cases like Yamel's in which kids are shot accidentally are hardly new, but now they're at the core of an unusual legal battle pitting a portion of the medical profession against some powerful gun-rights advocates and the state of Florida.

At issue is a new state law, the first of its kind in the nation, that forbids licensed healthcare workers from asking patients about gun ownership and gun safety absent compelling reasons. Supporters, including the National Rifle Association, say the law was needed to protect gun owners' privacy and stop doctors from "harassing'' patients on the subject.

The law, which went into effect June 2 when Gov. Rick Scott (http://www.sun-sentinel.com/topic/politics/government/rick-scott-PEPLT00007609.topic) signed it, has prompted a lawsuit in federal court from three professional groups representing thousands of Florida physicians. They say it unconstitutionally curtails their freedom of speech and interferes with their ability to look after patients' well-being.
The law says healthcare workers "should refrain'' from asking about guns, recording information about gun ownership on medical records or "unnecessarily harassing'' patients unless the question is "relevant,'' or risk loss of their license and a $10,000 fine. Physicians say the steep sanctions effectively chill many practitioners' willingness to raise the subject. The consequence, they argue, will be more tragedies like Yamel's.

Asking about gun ownership, and whether firearms are safely stored, has been standard medical procedure across the country for years — not just for clinicians treating depression or mental illness (http://www.sun-sentinel.com/topic/health/behavioral-conditions/mental-illness-HEBEC00006.topic), but also for pediatricians and family doctors. Their practices are increasingly focused on injury prevention.
It's also been standard among therapists dealing with a sharp increase in the incidence of dementia (http://www.sun-sentinel.com/topic/health/diseases-illnesses/alzheimers-disease-HEDAI000007.topic), whose sufferers, they say, should be kept away from guns.

Critics of the law say its vague wording raises a serious legal conundrum for physicians: If they're not supposed to ask whether patients or their family members keep guns, and under what circumstances, how can they determine if the information is relevant? And how would the state medical licensing board judge a complaint?
Lawyers for the state argue that nothing in the law stops healthcare providers from asking about guns if they believe "in good faith'' that the question is relevant "to medical health or safety.''

"The act instructs physicians only to respect the rights of patients who decline to disclose their ownership or possession of firearms,'' Assistant Attorney General Jason Vail wrote in a court brief. "A controversy exists only because the plaintiffs misconstrue the act.''

The NRA's chief lobbyist in Tallahassee, Marion Hammer, a key backer of the bill, declined to comment, citing the pending litigation. The NRA is not a party to the case because the judge turned down its request to intervene.

The state medical board sent out a letter advising healthcare workers to ask about guns only when it's relevant but provided little guidance. The University of Miami (http://www.sun-sentinel.com/topic/education/colleges-universities/university-of-miami-OREDU0000157.topic) told its physicians at Jackson Memorial Hospital to strip questions about guns from written questionnaires.

SOURCE (http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/florida/mh-gun-showdown-20110724,0,3086029.story)

Osmium Steele
07-27-11, 08:47 AM
The University of Miami (http://www.sun-sentinel.com/topic/education/colleges-universities/university-of-miami-OREDU0000157.topic) told its physicians at Jackson Memorial Hospital to strip questions about guns from written questionnaires.

That's your problem, right there.

yubba
07-27-11, 12:53 PM
They don't need to know what made the hole, they need to know how to fix the hole. more lib regs. I wonder how they are making out on the fast and furious hearings

Tribesman
07-27-11, 01:03 PM
So you have these laws which say people who are mentally incapable can't have guns, and you have their doctors who are not allowed to ask them if they have guns.

kraznyi_oktjabr
07-27-11, 02:03 PM
I really don't understand this law but this is not first time I find understanding Americans a bit challenging.

And to put this to record: I have nothing against firearm ownership as long as they are kept in right hands (ie. not in kids, mentally ill, people with dementia). In my family dad have several rifles and shotguns just like my little brother. Mom doesn't have use for one and I don't bother to ask from police about gun permit as its almost certain that it would be rejected.

Why it would be rejected? Same reason why army put me to category D (relieved from both peace and wartime conscription): legally deafblind.

Stealth Hunter
07-27-11, 02:05 PM
They don't need to know what made the hole, they need to know how to fix the hole. more lib regs. I wonder how they are making out on the fast and furious hearings

Part of fixing the hole is knowing what made the hole...:-?

Osmium Steele
07-27-11, 02:05 PM
So you have these laws which say people who are mentally incapable can't have guns, and you have their doctors who are not allowed to ask them if they have guns.

Asking about gun ownership, and whether firearms are safely stored, has been standard medical procedure across the country for years — not just for clinicians treating depression or mental illness (http://www.sun-sentinel.com/topic/health/behavioral-conditions/mental-illness-HEBEC00006.topic), but also for pediatricians and family doctors

At issue is a new state law, the first of its kind in the nation, that forbids licensed healthcare workers from asking patients about gun ownership and gun safety absent compelling reasons.

Mental capacity/dementia would likely be considered compelling reasons, and should be allowed under the law. Passes the common sense test anyway.

Tribesman
07-27-11, 02:17 PM
Mental capacity/dementia would likely be considered compelling reasons, and should be allowed under the law. Passes the common sense test anyway.
But when it comes to gun rights and possible litigation common sense has a tendancy to go out the window

Osmium Steele
07-27-11, 02:19 PM
True, true.

Shouldn't be too bad in Flalaland.

August
07-27-11, 02:59 PM
The cousin put her finger on the trigger — something safety-minded gun owners know never to do unless you mean to fire. The rifle went off. The bullet hit Yamel in the neck and left her a quadriplegic.

Physicians say the steep sanctions effectively chill many practitioners' willingness to raise the subject. The consequence, they argue, will be more tragedies like Yamel's.


How?

Platapus
07-27-11, 04:09 PM
I have never had any doctor ask me about guns.

sidslotm
07-27-11, 04:14 PM
"don't worry it ain't loaded" got to be the quote of all time.

razark
07-27-11, 04:23 PM
How?
Because, as everyone knows, doctors are responsible for training people proper gun safety.

Buddahaid
07-27-11, 05:46 PM
How?

I think what is relevant here is the dementia angle. Doctors examining people with mental problems could inform the family that the patient should be kept away from firearms if they own them to help prevent accidents.

If it is part of a formal questionnaire then the doctor would be required to report the gun ownership to the authorities just like they have to report child and senior abuse, and that's the sticky part.

Tribesman
07-27-11, 08:41 PM
If it is part of a formal questionnaire then the doctor would be required to report the gun ownership to the authorities just like they have to report child and senior abuse, and that's the sticky part.
That is an infringfement:yeah:
sticky eh:03:

Rilder
07-27-11, 09:16 PM
DER TERKING UR GRRNS

Laws like this are kinda off... I could understand having it so you can decline to answer if a doctor asks you about guns, (And if you die because the doctor didn't know the ammunition that entered you, that's your fault) but making it a law that a doctor can't ask questions that might help him treat his patients?

August
07-27-11, 10:09 PM
I think what is relevant here is the dementia angle. Doctors examining people with mental problems could inform the family that the patient should be kept away from firearms if they own them to help prevent accidents

That may be but then why not use an example which supports that claim? The story of poor Yamel, however tragic, does not even come close.

Anthony W.
07-27-11, 11:46 PM
A gunshot wound is pretty hard to miss.

What kind of questions would need to be asked? "Gee, well, it appears there is a bullet in your leg. Do you have a gun?"

Oddly enough, that did happen to my great uncle. He had a large bullet in his side with no entry wound and no idea how it got there.

gimpy117
07-27-11, 11:49 PM
this is why you NEVER EVER keep a gun loaded and always treat it as ready to fire!

just the other day I looked at a buddies 12 gauge shotgun and while checking to see it was empty found two shells in the magazine. needless to say i immediately cleared it.

but i think it's a fair question for doctors to ask. guns are dangerous, especially with kids and him advising you on safety could save your life. even more so with a gunshot wound. they need to ask questions, because there is a chance of foul play.


That may be but then why not use an example which supports that claim? The story of poor Yamel, however tragic, does not even come close.

Virginia Tech? somebody should have taken his guns away. (even better the law should have not had that voluntary checking into a mental asylum loophole).

Growler
07-28-11, 08:00 AM
If we have the right to own guns, docs have the right to ask about them as part of the service we're seeking of them, and we ALSO have the right to answer or decline to answer.

Further, a good doctor will inform the family of a person suffering dementia to remove that person's access to anything that may cause harm - including prescription medication, alcohol, and firearms.

Stupid, unnecessary regulation. Next, they'll be told not to ask about a patient's sex life when the patient reports with an STD.

*sigh* We are slowly but surely giving up our right to think for ourselves.

August
07-28-11, 09:17 AM
but i think it's a fair question for doctors to ask. guns are dangerous, especially with kids and him advising you on safety could save your life.

What makes a Doctor qualified to teach firearms safety?

Virginia Tech? somebody should have taken his guns away.

Yes there are good examples gimpy. I'm just curious why they decided to use an unrelated incident to illustrate their point. No amount of Doctor questions would have prevented Yamel's injury and as you point out there are better examples that they could have used.

Gerald
07-28-11, 09:35 AM
I guess the doctor is sufficiently skilled to determine, Whether the person should have weapons license or not, in Sweden as an example, the doctor must notify the police if a person has weapons in their possession, and then the police get them, especially if the patient is cared on the hospital bed, and then in the inpatient.

gimpy117
07-28-11, 10:18 AM
What makes a Doctor qualified to teach firearms safety?
no, but they are usually qualified in common sense. if they think babies are toddling around the house with loaded guns or something like that they ought to tell someone.

August
07-28-11, 02:26 PM
no, but they are usually qualified in common sense. if they think babies are toddling around the house with loaded guns or something like that they ought to tell someone.

All they ask is whether there are firearms in the house. You can't determine negligence from mere possession.

JU_88
07-28-11, 04:14 PM
LOL, I remember when I was kid, I had so much blind faith in adults, I always remember seeing the talking heads on TV News etc,
while not understanding 80% of what they said, I do recall thinking to mysellf, It sounds complicated, but Im sure they know what they are doing.
Two decades later I walk amongst them and realise they dont have a bloody clue half the time.... The people at the top? they just 'wing it' :rotfl2: