U-505, Chicago [Archive] - SUBSIM Radio Room Forums

Anthony W.

07-27-11, 12:18 AM

I went through it a long time ago. I was dismayed that they cut the side...

Woulda been more impressed if they left it all stock.

I read an article somewhere that said when they got it and were restoring it just after the war, they wrote to the companies that made the parts asking for replacements. Most of them replied with a letter that said something like, "We are sorry you have our U-Boat, but, since you do, we at least want it to stand as a testament to German technology."

Woo 600th post

Sailor Steve

07-27-11, 12:53 AM

I toured U-505 in 1962. I don't remember much about it.

Penguin

07-27-11, 04:08 AM

Most of them replied with a letter that said something like, "We are sorry you have our U-Boat, but, since you do, we at least want it to stand as a testament to German technology."

It's highly unlikely that a German company would have written this shortly after the war. They would never openly stated that they are sorry that the enemy has captured a boat, especially not during "denazification". Plus they had tons of other problems and did not care much for the stuff they produced during the war.

In John Venzo's chapter in "Steel Boat, Iron Hearts", he also never mentions this, iirc he also writes that the restoration did not start until the 1990s.
Can't check the book out atm - still in a box somewhere.

frau kaleun

07-27-11, 07:49 AM

Penguin is correct, there was no "restoration" as such done just after the war. The museum didn't physically acquire the boat until 1954; the full restoration was only begun in 1997 when they decided to move it indoors.

From 1944 through 1954 the boat was in the hands of the US Navy. They sent her around the country on a war bonds tour after VE Day and certainly she was thoroughly examined for whatever intelligence and technological insights she might yield, but they wouldn't have been doing anything to restore or preserve her. Just the opposite, they were planning to get her "off the books" by using her for target practice until the buyers in Chicago intervened and saved her from destruction.

Osmium Steele

07-27-11, 07:57 AM

AVGWarhawk

07-27-11, 08:01 AM

Many WW2 items were left mothballed for quite sometime after the war. There is a storage facilty in Suitland MD were many were kept. Flying wings. Enola Gay. Of course the Enola Gay was restored and on display.

The again, U-505 was used quite a bit after capture. Many things could have been altered or changed. Much like the Torsk from her WW2 configuration up to Guppy class Cold War boat.

The U-Boat that had been captured by the USA was U-505 (http://www.uboat.net/boats/u505.htm), which had been forced to the surface on 4 June 1944 by a US Navy escort carrier task group 150 miles off the west coast of Africa. U-505 (http://www.uboat.net/boats/u505.htm) was then towed to the Port Royal Bay US Navy Base in Bermuda for technical examination. U-505 (http://www.uboat.net/boats/u505.htm) was kept in Bermuda for the remainder of the war and, because of the security imperative to maintain the illusion that she had been sunk rather than captured, it was temporarily renamed as USS Nemo. After the war, U-505 (http://www.uboat.net/boats/u505.htm) was moved to the US Navy Yard at Portsmouth, NH for use in gunnery and torpedo target practice. However this proposed fate came to the attention of Admiral Gallery (who had commanded the carrier USS Guadalcanal when U-505 (http://www.uboat.net/boats/u505.htm) was captured), and through his initiative the U-Boat was eventually donated by the US Government to the Chicago Museum of Science and Industry, being dedicated as a permanent exhibit and war memorial on 25 September 1955 - where it remains on display.

kraznyi_oktjabr

07-27-11, 08:04 AM

Here's the thread Mookie started in the museums section. (http://174.123.69.202/%7Esubsimc/radioroom/showthread.php?t=167739)

Some good pics there. Unfortunately, the lighting sux in the pen. Too dim for anything out of flash range.

Next time I go, I'm taking a hand held spotlight with me. :yeah:
Dim lights are propably here preserve the ship. This is atleast case in Vasamuseet (Vasa Museum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasa_Museum)) where there is very poor lighting inside to prevent further damage to wreckage of Swedish 64-gun warship Vasa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasa_%28ship%29).

mookiemookie

07-27-11, 08:12 AM

Here's the thread Mookie started in the museums section. (http://174.123.69.202/~subsimc/radioroom/showthread.php?t=167739)

Some good pics there. Unfortunately, the lighting sux in the pen. Too dim for anything out of flash range.

Next time I go, I'm taking a hand held spotlight with me. :yeah:

You're right, the lighting is very dim inside the exhibit hall. I think that's more for atmosphere than any sort of preservation. The boat is painted up good as new, so I don't think it's in any danger of rust or decay due to light.

Penguin

07-27-11, 08:23 AM

Next time I go, I'm taking a hand held spotlight with me. :yeah:

This would work if you only want to take pics of details.
If you want to take a shot of the whole boat, you would need dozens of kilowatt's of light from different positions. Better take a tripod with you and use a long exposure time.
Looking forward to any submarine pics! :salute:

AVGWarhawk

07-27-11, 08:27 AM

I suspect there is a large sign that states no flash photography. Flash will discolor paint over time plus it disturbs other visitors.

Osmium Steele

07-27-11, 08:33 AM

I suspect there is a large sign that states no flash photography. Flash will discolor paint over time plus it disturbs other visitors.

Not that I saw, and I looked. There were plenty of folks snapping flash pics. They even had an employee taking pics of visitors and hawking them.

Just can't take any inside the boat. :down:

Jimbuna

07-27-11, 08:35 AM

I went through it a long time ago. I was dismayed that they cut the side...

Woulda been more impressed if they left it all stock.

I'd be grateful it didn't receive the same treatment as U-534...sliced into four sections.

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQcHCQhh76Phoa3vy0sEx1uOoFfWtVK2 1l4yab7MXKke6FFCIEU

http://www.u-boatstory.co.uk/_common/img/Liverpool-Days-Out2-U-534.jpg

http://www.merseymammoth.com/assets/images/portfolio/DSC_5082%5B1%5D_1.jpg

http://www.irishseashipping.com/viewpoint/u534/u534.htm

Apologies for the background music.

AVGWarhawk

07-27-11, 08:39 AM

Not that I saw, and I looked. There were plenty of folks snapping flash pics. They even had an employee taking pics of visitors and hawking them.

Just can't take any inside the boat. :down:

I figured no pics inside with flash. Just the nature of some museums. Personally all the darn flashing is irritating to me. I'm sure it is to others.

Anthony W.

07-27-11, 11:16 AM

I'd be grateful it didn't receive the same treatment as U-534...sliced into four sections.

Not quite that, about a 12x12 hole cut in the side, tho. I was dismayed. I'd much rather have climbed down the hatch. I looked at the lady like, "Listen, I probably know more about how this boat operated than you ever will or will care to (thanks to reading all the posts here). I wanna go down the damn hatch!"

AVGWarhawk

07-27-11, 11:19 AM

Not quite that, about a 12x12 hole cut in the side, tho. I was dismayed. I'd much rather have climbed down the hatch.

Grandpa and Grandma do not want to climb down the hatch. The boat would lose a lot of visitorship if access was limited. It's all about money when it comes to warship museums. Visitorship brings much needed money. :03:

Growler

07-27-11, 11:27 AM

Grandpa and Grandma do not want to climb down the hatch. The boat would lose a lot of visitorship if access was limited. It's all about money when it comes to warship museums. Visitorship brings much needed money. :03:

This.

As devastating as it is to the old boats, there's just no other alternative if you want John Q. Public, his parents, and his kids to have access to the boat, and therefore, keep the boat around a little longer.

Hottentot

07-27-11, 12:02 PM

I looked at the lady like, "Listen, I probably know more about how this boat operated than you ever will or will care to (thanks to reading all the posts here). I wanna go down the damn hatch!"

Ah. Thank you. You just made me remember why working on research and not having to deal with the visitors can be a paradise on Earth compared to the alternatives.

mookiemookie

07-27-11, 12:08 PM

Hottentot

07-27-11, 12:10 PM

Stay classy. :nope:

Hey, staffs need amusement too.

Edit: And not to turn this into flaming, two simple questions to Anthony and anyone, really:

1: Do you think the only information the museum, therefore the staff, has about an object, is the thing written on the posts?

2: How many self proclaimed experts visit (on average) per week?

mookiemookie

07-27-11, 01:27 PM

One of the life lessons I've learned is to never be too sure of your own knowledge. It breeds closed mindedness and invariably there's always someone out there that knows more about a subject than you do, and you may not realize it at first.

Anthony W.

07-27-11, 03:28 PM

Never said I actually said it lol

I did think it tho haha

I would only make a scene in public if it was an emergency.

Oh, couldn't they have 2 tours (one of which you get to go down the hatch), or have placed the hole somewhere else? I'd have much rather seen a set of stairs going down into it from the deck...

AVGWarhawk

07-27-11, 03:44 PM

Oh, couldn't they have 2 tours (one of which you get to go down the hatch), or have placed the hole somewhere else? I'd have much rather seen a set of stairs going down into it from the deck...

From a insurance/liability standpoint it is not recommend. There is plenty of compartments on the Torsk that do not have access for visitors. The Torsk has stairs to enter and exit. What she does not have is a nice building surrounding and protecting her from the elements like U-505. However, it is kind of cool to see her in the water which is her natural habitat. :yeah:

Anthony W.

07-27-11, 05:03 PM

From a insurance/liability standpoint it is not recommend. There is plenty of compartments on the Torsk that do not have access for visitors. The Torsk has stairs to enter and exit. What she does not have is a nice building surrounding and protecting her from the elements like U-505. However, it is kind of cool to see her in the water which is her natural habitat. :yeah:

If there were ever a fund to move her to an enclosed aquarium, I'd donate every dime I could afford. Same with the Requin. And I'd lobby congress to authorize the USS Bowfin to sail under her own power - and give her her authorization to dive. :D

History is something that is definitely worth my hard earned dollar. I'd even put off my car projects for it.

AVGWarhawk

07-27-11, 05:26 PM

If there were ever a fund to move her to an enclosed aquarium, I'd donate every dime I could afford. Same with the Requin. And I'd lobby congress to authorize the USS Bowfin to sail under her own power - and give her her authorization to dive. :D

History is something that is definitely worth my hard earned dollar. I'd even put off my car projects for it.

The funds to do such things are only dreams of the volunteers that keep them preserved. For the Torsk, getting a Fairbanks working again would be great but other things on the boat need much more attention than getting a engine started. Plus, if the Torsk dived it would be her last. The induction system in the sail is rusted open about an inch or two. Furthermore, when the US Navy hands a vessel over for museum use they basically take a chainsaw to the wiring in every compartment. In short, they do their best to assure the vessel would not function like it was made to function. As a machine of war. Just dry dock alone was millions for cleaning and paint. Growler will attest to that! We work for the same cause concerning the USS Torsk. Growler is much more involved now Torsk and the Lighthouse Chesapeake. :up:

vienna

07-27-11, 06:01 PM

Another aspect of public access is the issue of Americans with Daisabilities Act (ADA) requirements. Any organization, public or private, that accepts public tax funds or grants is required to comply with ADA standards for access by all segemnts of the public. To deny access, aside from the spectre of individual suits, can result in the loss of public tax funds.

Growler

07-27-11, 07:56 PM

...getting a Fairbanks working again would be great but other things on the boat need much more attention than getting a engine started.

Well... um... about that...

... Just dry dock alone was millions for cleaning and paint. Growler will attest to that! We work for the same cause concerning the USS Torsk. Growler is much more involved now Torsk and the Lighthouse Chesapeake. :up:

JR had the duty during the last drydock period, but thanks to him, I was able to make an appearance at Sparrows Point for a few hours one Saturday morning with many of the TVA in attendance; I didn't pick up where he left off until Jun 6 of this year. Constellation's unexpected wood rot repair bought Torsk a few extra weeks in the dock; rough estimate on the drydocking is ~$1M. Some of the costs were defrayed by donations of services and dock time - General Ship Repair helped out a lot - and a LOT of the work done on both ships was done by Museum staff rather than the yardbirds.

Another aspect of public access is the issue of Americans with Daisabilities Act (ADA) requirements. Any organization, public or private, that accepts public tax funds or grants is required to comply with ADA standards for access by all segemnts of the public. To deny access, aside from the spectre of individual suits, can result in the loss of public tax funds.

There are exceptions to ADA, most notably around historic vessels; reasonable attempts at accommodating disabled persons must be made, provided they do not irrevocably alter or destroy historic fabric. For Torsk to be made handicapped accessible in her current configuration is impossible to do without significantly destroying the vessel itself.

Growler

07-27-11, 08:04 PM

Ah. Thank you. You just made me remember why working on research and not having to deal with the visitors can be a paradise on Earth compared to the alternatives.

This.

Neptunus Rex

07-27-11, 08:19 PM

Unfortunately, no pics. Museum staff would not allow it, don't know why. Only small groups allowed under staff excort for a guided tour. Tour guide gave a basic description of each space but the bulk of the tour (and audio effects) was describing the conditions at the time of aquistion by the Task Force that attacked her, to surfacing, order to scuttle and abandon ship and arrival of US Navy forces on board.

All the instruments and controls have the original German tags. Not even English translations. But I have enough knowledge of subs to figure most out. No time to wander though. Get in, go through, get out. They run the groups through too quickly.

I thought the Gato/Balao were small (compared to modern SSN's). The Type IXC hull was only about 12 feet max width.

Neptunus Rex

07-27-11, 08:21 PM

Whoa!

Neal, what's with this avatar?

Neptunus Rex

07-27-11, 08:22 PM

What's up. One post and the avatar changed again!

:hmmm:

Growler

07-27-11, 08:23 PM

No time to wander though. Get in, go through, get out. They run the groups through too quickly. I've heard this complaint often. Sad, really, but understandable, somewhat. Too many people would be prying everything loose on that boat, as rare as it is. Hell, we see people trying to pry stuff off of Torsk and the other museum boats, and, while not rare, these boats aren't exactly uncommon, either.

I thought the Gato/Balao were small (compared to modern SSN's). The Type IXC hull was only about 12 feet max width.

ID (inner diameter) or beam?

EDIT: Neptunus, the Avatars change at certain post counts, for a post or two... Neal's just having a bit of fun.

frau kaleun

07-27-11, 08:26 PM

I thought the Gato/Balao were small (compared to modern SSN's). The Type IXC hull was only about 12 feet max width.

When I toured U-505 some years ago it was before my current u-boat obsession began. Of course I knew what a u-boat was and had an understanding of the historical significance within the context of the war in general, but what I knew about the specifics of the boats themselves was next to nothing.

I distinctly remember going through the boat from one end to the other and then thinking, okay, now we'll go up or down and see the rest of the boat. Except there was no "rest of the boat." :haha:

I am still amazed at how little living/working space there was inside that thing given the size of the crew it carried.

Neptunus Rex

07-27-11, 08:52 PM

ID (inner diameter) or beam?

ID!

Sailor Steve

07-27-11, 09:25 PM

What's up. One post and the avatar changed again!

:hmmm:
There are two avatars that come and go at a set post count. "Wild Night in Bangkok" comes at post #179 and "Rough Night at Langtree's Brothel" comes right about where you're at.

Hottentot

07-27-11, 11:30 PM

I've heard this complaint often. Sad, really, but understandable, somewhat. Too many people would be prying everything loose on that boat, as rare as it is. Hell, we see people trying to pry stuff off of Torsk and the other museum boats, and, while not rare, these boats aren't exactly uncommon, either.

And let us not forget the effect of "Do not touch the objects" signs.

Poke, poke, poke...

Growler

07-28-11, 07:22 AM

And let us not forget the effect of "Do not touch the objects" signs.

Poke, poke, poke...

Oh, brother, you said it. I've said to people, when they ask (about anything, sometimes) that, "That takes the boat down underwater," and then watched as they messed with it; if what I told them were true, they would have killed themselves, their family, and everyone else on the boat, and they chuckle it off like it's no big deal. Since, you know, I couldn't have been serious. If there's a particularly obnoxious visitor, I'll hit the klaxon when they can't see me.

There's a reason why the AC panel is screened off from visitors, but that still doesn't stop them from sticking their fingers into live circuit panels after prying the covers off.

ID!

Torsk's inside diameter (the people tank) is probably that, or less. To the Germans' credit, at least their compartment watertight doors are easier to get through, being round; American boats used smaller, oval-shaped doors that don't necessarily lend themselves to rapid transition for the tall and broad-shouldered among us.

Hottentot

07-28-11, 08:15 AM

There's a reason why the AC panel is screened off from visitors, but that still doesn't stop them from sticking their fingers into live circuit panels after prying the covers off.

Sounds...familiar. How come 6,800 kilometers and an ocean don't seem to make people any different in certain ways that you'd hope they would be different in?

Growler

07-28-11, 08:17 AM

Sounds...familiar. How come 6,800 kilometers and an ocean don't seem to make people any different in certain ways that you'd hope they would be different in?

I wish I had some sort of enlightening answer, but I have to admit, I think it's just that stupidity is the lowest common denominator.

Neptunus Rex

07-28-11, 08:57 AM

Torsk's inside diameter (the people tank) is probably that, or less. To the Germans' credit, at least their compartment watertight doors are easier to get through, being round; American boats used smaller, oval-shaped doors that don't necessarily lend themselves to rapid transition for the tall and broad-shouldered among us.

US watertight doors are oval so they can be removed and repaired off ship if necessary.

Tough to do with round doors that are larger than the exterior hatches.

I'm 6'3" tall and had no problem negotiating those doors in my five years on boats.

Growler

07-28-11, 09:06 AM

US watertight doors are oval so they can be removed and repaired off ship if necessary.

Tough to do with round doors that are larger than the exterior hatches.

I'm 6'3" tall and had no problem negotiating those doors in my five years on boats.

Yeah, my first day on the job on Torsk some five years ago, I had to haul it through the boat from ATR to FTR because the docent, and older guy in his seventies, who was supposed to be topside wasn't answering radio calls, and we were afraid he was in trouble. We found him in FTR - giving a guided tour. My 6'4" fits through the doors well enough, but that's largely because I'm well-used to them by now. I can still get through the boat pretty quick, but then, I've always been fairly agile, once I quit growing, that is.

As to removing the doors for repair - that makes sense, though I wonder what it would take to damage a door that badly - they seem pretty solid, and not overly complicated. The circumstances under which you'd haul the whole thing off the boat must be exceptional, I would guess. (Don't mistake me for doubting you, because I don't - it makes perfect, clear sense to me that they'd be done that way, now that you mention it.)

Neptunus Rex

07-28-11, 02:01 PM

As to removing the doors for repair - that makes sense, though I wonder what it would take to damage a door that badly - they seem pretty solid, and not overly complicated. The circumstances under which you'd haul the whole thing off the boat must be exceptional, I would guess. (Don't mistake me for doubting you, because I don't - it makes perfect, clear sense to me that they'd be done that way, now that you mention it.)

The dogging mechanism has gears. They mount to machined bosses on the door. If those gear bosses become gauled or cracked, they have to be welded and machined.

Or they just bring another door down and the repair shop keeps the repaired one.