bomb in oslo

[joegrundman]

suspected truck bomb blows up government building in oslo, at least one dead, several injured.

i'm betting it's the Buddhists

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14252515

[Biggles]

Horrible business this is. Sweden supports you!

Enade är vi starka!

[Gerald]

I got it in my phone a while ago, no good news for me, and some other...:hmmm:

[stabiz]

Several dead after at least two blasts, the police are looking for two additional bombs that are supposedly not detonated.

[the_tyrant]

terrorism is everywhere:nope:
(lets hope its not a terrorist though)

[Morts]

terrorism is everywhere:nope:
(lets hope its not a terrorist though)
How can it be not be a terrorist who did this ?.
It was an act of terrorism, which makes the person who did it a terrorist !.
No matter color or creed

[Growler]

My thoughts are with all of those affected by this; stand strong, Oslo.

[danasan]

The pictures on TV news were just horrifying, so my thoughts are with all of those affected.

To be honest, I still can't see why Oslo / Norway?

[frau kaleun]

Terrible, I hope there are no more detonations. My heart goes out to everyone there.

[Skybird]

I still can't see why Oslo / Norway?
Afghanistan, Lybia.

Norway received threats from Al Quaeda, and Gaddafi has threatened terror strikes in all of Europe.

[Biggles]

To be honest, I still can't see why Oslo / Norway?

Those with a twisted mind will always find a reason...

[Penguin]

Shocking!

Norge: Vi tenker på dere!

I hope the norwegian people stay calm and remain sensible.


terrorism is everywhere:nope:
(lets hope its not a terrorist though)

Why don't you ****ing shut up and stay away from things you know nothing about instead of making generic statements which say nothing? Terrorism is everywhere? really? If someone dies in a car crash you post "accidents are everywhere"? you are somehow emotional crippled, eh?
You have obviously no idea about Europe and Scandinavia, nor what this act means to the population here.
welcome back to my ignore list, child

[danasan]

Afghanistan, Lybia.

Norway received threats from Al Quaeda, and Gaddafi has threatened terror strikes in all of Europe.

That is nothing new, but I am sure there are targets which are more likely, regarding for example the NATO. But we shouldn't speculate on that, now.

[Gerald]

In my opinion, it can not at present directly determined that it comes from groups who have previously threatened countries that have had foreign presence in their homeland, but the idea is not far away, and speculation will always get a foothold before the counterattack is inserted into the country's security service (which works 24/7 always), and the world's leading anti-terrorist organizations, field mitigation at various levels.

[Biggles]

Spokesman for Politi states they do not have any prime suspects or motives yet.

[Penguin]

danasan, don't forget the arrests made last year in Norway and Germany: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/09/world/europe/09norway.html - so the country has been targeted before
interesting conclusions drawn here: http://www.ctc.usma.edu/posts/lessons-learned-from-the-july-2010-norwegian-terrorist-plot
edit: forgot to mention, there is also a description of possible motives against Norway in the middle of the second article

[danasan]

Thanks, I remember now.

[stabiz]

Its getting wilder, now there are reports of a person dressed as a police officer shooting at people at a political gathering outside Oslo.

[Oberon]

Bloody hell, Norway? You just don't think of this kind of thing happening in Norway. This is quite terrible.

[danasan]

Here it is said that Stoltenberg seems to be the target. He should have been at that political gathering outside Oslo.

[Gerald]

http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/228/26db4a566fe2362cb8.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/64/26db4a566fe2362cb8.jpg/)

http://www.nrk.no/nyheter/norge/1.7722919

Note: In Norwegian language.

[Penguin]

dagbladet speculates that it was a huge car bomb

Its getting wilder, now there are reports of a person dressed as a police officer shooting at people at a political gathering outside Oslo.

This looks like a madman in the wake of the attack. He went there and told he'd investigate the attack, then opened fire. On the one hand there were prominent political persons there, on the other hand I think if those two were related it would have been a coordinated attack at the same time - as one could think that security at the camp was more alert after the bomb.

[Paul Riley]

I heard about it also,terrible news.
Petty the Vikings arent around anymore,they would smash their puny little bodies the cowardly scum!
Keep your chin up Norway,I am with you and all my other Scandinavian comrades,the b######s will pay for their cowardice one day when the einhergar are awakened at ragnarok! :arrgh!:

Sorry about that,just makes my blood boil thats all.

[Gerald]

Now you have the big picture again ... you confine yourself not with the smaller, :DL

[Paul Riley]

Now you have the big picture again ... you confine yourself not with the smaller, :DL

Sorry Vendor,you lost me mate ;)

[Paul Riley]

Sorry Vendor,you lost me mate ;)

Oh you mean the sig picture? is it too big again? :wah:

[McBeck]

A book apparently re-published the Muhammad drawings in norway not long ago...

[Gerald]

Oh you mean the sig picture? is it too big again? :wah:You have put it in the system ... to make it stand out sharply,:DL

[RickC Sniper]

Needless, stupid, idiotic. My heart goes out to those affected by this.

[Penguin]

New details come in any minute:

Now they say that the shooting in the camp and the bomb happened at the same time.
4 people were apparently killed in the summer camp.

[Gerald]

Five gunshot victims in the political camp,not dead.

[Biggles]

Five gunshot victims in the political camp,not dead.

While some sources claim that at least 5 and maybe even 10 have been killed there.

Confusion is reaching quantum levels. What appears to be confirmed though is that the gunman was disguised as a Police officer, he "looked Nordic" and he is arrested.

[Betonov]

I'll express my verbal support for Norway, that's all I can do now and my support for my Norwegian Red Cross colleagues allready on the scene

[MH]

That must be a shock to peaceful place like Norway.
Be strong.

[Gerald]

While some sources claim that at least 5 and maybe even 10 have been killed there.

Confusion is reaching quantum levels. What appears to be confirmed though is that the gunman was disguised as a Police officer, he "looked Nordic" and he is arrested. There currently are as different tasks, is circulating about who has suffered, and how many are involved in the attacks, a madman or an organization ... time will tell the truth...whatever ... so this will have consequences.

[Jimbuna]

Latest death toll is seven:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/

[VirtualVikingX]

Thanks for all the support. My heart breaks for those teenagers. Latest report up to 30 shot dead. Supposedly he had a glock and a hunting rifle

[krashkart]

I can't find the right words to express, so this will have to do:

:cry:

[Biggles]

Thanks for all the support. My heart breaks for those teenagers. Latest report up to 30 shot dead. Supposedly he had a glock and a hunting rifle

Mad, utterly madness. I feel sick.

Ni har mitt, och antagligen, hela Sveriges befolknings, fulla stöd. :salute:

[BossMark]

Absolutely bloody awful really sad what goes thtough these tossers minds to do such evil things :cry:
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Article/201107116035628

[Paul Riley]

Absolutely bloody awful really sad what goes thtough these tossers minds to do such evil things :cry:
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Article/201107116035628

I fear Britain will come under attack very soon,this is obviously going to have a domino effect on the politics of the western world.I hope NOT,but I dont see any way out myself,and to think how this filthy government continues to scrap our army and cut back on ships etc,makes me sick! :stare:

Gods bless Norway,we are with you all the way!

[Jimbuna]

On a personal note:

Young bunas vessel left Oslo this afternoon and all aboard are aware of the terrible tragic events so I should imagine the mood of the crew and passengers will be as gloomy as the weather in the arctic circle they are headed for.

[VirtualVikingX]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14256438

True in all ways.

[Catfish]

Hello,
god, this is really sad. I hope there will be no more dead, they are speaking of 20 now.

Right - this certainly is terrorism. Killing innocent people with a bomb is almost as cowardly as using land mines. But WHO did this ? Let us wait until some more facts, before blaming Islam again.
It is usually a good approach to think about whom serves such a deed most.
Islamic fanatics, really ?

Greetings,
Catfish

P.S. Jim, good to hear your son is safe.

[Growler]

On a personal note:

Young bunas vessel left Oslo this afternoon and all aboard are aware of the terrible tragic events so I should imagine the mood of the crew and passengers will be as gloomy as the weather in the arctic circle they are headed for.

Hell, Jim, they may be headed to the safest neighborhood around there at the moment. Glad the boy's safe, mate.

[BossMark]

Right - this certainly is terrorism. Killing innocent people with a bomb is almost as cowardly as using land mines. But WHO did this ? Let us wait until some more facts, before blaming Islam again.
Islamic fanatics, really
P.S. Jim, good to hear your son is safe.
If I hadnt paid my morgage off last year then I would certainly bet it all on it being those loony murdering bastards al qaeda

@ Jim glad your son is safe :yep:

[Jimbuna]

Hell, Jim, they may be headed to the safest neighborhood around there at the moment. Glad the boy's safe, mate.

Yeah, I'd be lying if I said a part of me hadn't already thought that :yep:

[Jimbuna]

P.S. Jim, good to hear your son is safe.



@ Jim glad your son is safe :yep:

Thanks guys....all our hopes and prayers should be firmly focussed on those who have lost family and on the rescue of those still in harms way.

[Paul Riley]

Yes,good to hear about your son Jim.
Lets hope the situation in Norway doesnt get any worse,or indeed spread :nope:

[VirtualVikingX]

Gun man said to be Norwegian and Nordic looking.

[Paul Riley]

Gun man said to be Norwegian and Nordic looking.

Male or female?
Damn this is getting more worrying by the minute,this sounds political (internally) and not islamic terrorism.We will have to wait until morning or in a few days,I do know though that Norwegian special forces have been put on high alert around the country.
Good luck.

[VirtualVikingX]

Male. You got friends in high places?

Edit: confirmed ethnic Norwegian. 32 years old.

[Safe-Keeper]

Seems to be a lone fanatic, yes.
Not up to Quisling's level, but still someone who will be remembered in infamy for a looong time.

Taking into consideration the horror of first a bomb, then a shooting, he'll probably get several, oh, hours of jail time for this:shifty:.

[Paul Riley]

You got friends in high places?


How do you mean?

[Penguin]

According to www.nrk.no the police found a car with (undetonated) explosives on Utøya (the camp's island) It seems that this scumbag wanted to raise the death toll among the juveniles.

[VirtualVikingX]

How do you mean?

Your knowledge of Norwegian military readiness. I don't doubt you though.

[McBeck]

Jeg føler med jer. Det er virkelig forfærdeligt...

[Foxtrot]

Immigrant community in Norway must be relaxed to know that the suspect is a local blond with blue/green eyes.
Al Qeeda goes for as much casualties as possible. I doubt that they will detonate a bomb while half of the country on holidays, unless they have some recent change of priorities and a new curriculum.

Correct me if I am wrong but majority of terrorist attacks in Europe are usually committed by separatist, IRA, ETA, Corsicans, arsonists, left/right wingers etc.

[Skybird]

Correct me if I am wrong but majority of terrorist attacks in Europe are usually committed by separatist, IRA, ETA, Corsicans, arsonists, left/right wingers etc.

With the IRA in Ireland and the lefty Red Army Faction in Germany gone, no faction once active in European terror can compete with the number and deathtoll imposed by Islamic terror of the past ten years, nor has the RAF in Germany ever carried out terror strike of the kind we have seen now, and have seen in London, in Madrid, and just to mention it: New York. The ETA also does not compare to that scale of bloodthirst, it often warns of bombs being placed.

Also, for every major Islamic terror strike of the past ten years, there have been multiple intended strikes spoiled. Between 2001 and 2006 there have been almost 30 intended terror attacks of jihadists in Europe that were interdicted by intel and the police before they could have been carried out. Some of these plots intended massacres of the scale we have had in Madrid, and London. Germany was targetted repeatedly, too, but so far we had been lucky.

Add to these all those Islamic terror strikes we have seen around the globe in the past ten years, from NorthWest Africa over the Gulf region and India to the Far East. It is a timeframe within which Islamic terrorism dominates terrorism conducted by other religious or political terror factions - and very clearly so. I little bit it reminds me of the era of the original Assassins (Hashishins) that haunted medieval rulers and leading figures not only but especially in the Sunni territories of influence within Persia, until their order got wiped out by the Mongoles who made short process with them in the middle of the 13th century, just some years before they conquered and completely destroyed Bagdad.

[Morts]

police confirming 80+ dead on Utøya

http://www.tv2.no/nyheter/innenriks/politiet-minst-80-drept-paa-utoeya-3544636.html (http://www.tv2.no/nyheter/innenriks/politiet-minst-80-drept-paa-utoeya-3544636.html)

[Safe-Keeper]

Absolutely devastating. Speechless at the moment.

Won't be happy news for my countrymen to wake up to in a few hours. Will be just like the first shock all over again:nope:.

[Kaye T. Bai]

Oh, no! 80 dead? It's only going to rise from here on out, not good. :nope:

The world stands with the Norwegians in their time of need. Hopefully the Norwegians will capture and punish those responsible for this criminal act.

Long live Scandinavia!

[Snestorm]

This is still beyond words for me.
My heart is with you, Norge.

[Hottentot]

Seems like this (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/23/world/europe/23oslo.html?_r=2&hp) article gives a pretty good summary in English so far.

Words fail me.

[VirtualVikingX]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2017851/Norwegian-massacre-gunman-Anders-Behring-Breivik-right-wing-extremist-hated-Muslims.html

Same as being reported in Norwegian media.

[Tribesman]

Terrible events.
Bloody sick neo-nazi scum.

To all the hypocrites.
You know who you are, and so do we.

[Snestorm]

Terrible events.
Bloody sick neo-nazi scum.

To all the hypocrites.
You know who you are, and so do we.

Take a hike, Tribesman!
Nobody needs a Troll now.

[VirtualVikingX]

84 confirmed dead after shooting.

[Tribesman]

Take a hike, Tribesman!
Nobody needs a Troll now.

If you want to include nordic neo nazi links in your signature in a topic about a nordic neo nazis murdering a bunch of kids then you get what you deserve and can't complain.

[ORP BALTYK]

Ye its so mednes .:nope:

[Foxtrot]

seems that a few "terrorists" were playing medics, and one of those "terrorist" wears red underwear.
Wake up Norway. "Terrorists" are now walking among you as Messiahs.

http://images.ctv.ca/archives/CTVNews/img2/20110722/470_oslo_blast_norway_explosion6_110722.jpg

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/7/22/1311349823595/People-tend-to-a-wounded--002.jpg

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/07/22/article-2017709-0D1E3D9300000578-741_634x612.jpg

[Schroeder]

This is so sick! Absolutely disgusting!

[Hottentot]

Take a hike, Tribesman!
Nobody needs a Troll now.

If you want to include nordic neo nazi links in your signature in a topic about a nordic neo nazis murdering a bunch of kids then you get what you deserve and can't complain.

Wow. To both.

[Tribesman]

Sorry, but if someone included videos in support of Lashkar-e-taiba in a topic about the Mumbai atrocities they would have got the same treatment.

[Hottentot]

No doubt. The question is: is the higher priority in following a tragedy, that is still going on and where the bodies are still being counted or to get to make a witty remark about a person commenting the said tragedy. He may deserve it, but the dead Norwegians deserve something much better, in my humble opinion.

[Tribesman]

Hottentot, there was no attempt to be "witty" there.

the dead Norwegians deserve something much better, in my humble opinion.
Fair point:salute:

[Skybird]

Neonazism is a sick breed of thought. It has caused and motivated for the mass killings of WWII, and now has motivated this (although I also think there is some mental health issue involved - it is reported he shot his victims with aim in the face and the head). How some people still can argue it should be given freedom of speech and fostering and growth and opportunity to attract people legally and in public, is beyond me. How much more disasters must it cause before people call it by its name?

[HunterICX]

This is so sick! Absolutely disgusting!

Couldn't put it better myself....:nope:

HunterICX

[joea]

I am disgusted, sad and angry as well. :nope:

My condolences to the Norwegian people.

[Paul Riley]

Bloody religious nutcases,I hate religion,all of it.This is what it causes.

The world needs to wake up,because we are all surrounded by wolves in sheep clothing,and they could all attack en masse if given the chance,and given the state of the west's governments presently then we are screwed if things escalate globally.
Surely this has to be a wake up call,but probably wont,MOST not ALL people are sheep and the wolves are hungry.

So sorry Norway,such a beautiful land :nope:

[Castout]

Wolves mostly are crook politicians and successful dictators.

You can't say a single nutcase a wolf. A nut is a nut though he might be a fatal nut. A nut can't organize and repeat this act of barbarism from time to time.
A nut may use any reason at all. Those including politics, religion, racism or any other. The reason whatever it was is in fact irrelevant because it is illogical. It was a fatal chaotic act. It wasn't the fault of any religion. Now if the nuts come together as a band and form an organized group basing on a skewed ideas of politics, religion or racism now that is what we call extremists or terrorists.

[Paul Riley]

Wolves mostly are crook politicians and successful dictators.



Dont forget the brainwashed zombies that follow those you just mentioned,they are all parts of the same cancer.

[Castout]

Dont forget the brainwashed zombies that follow these types you just mentioned,they are all parts of the same cancer. That they are. The cancer of society. Well if those people are the majority the downfall and collapse of the society and thus nation would only be a matter of time.

The cause is because every individual is not the same. Some people are just worms, some are dogs, some others snakes(small and big) and yet others still wolves and a few may be eagles but the majority are probably chickens(timid, compromising people who are lacking soul and with low aspirations). There are other types too such as sheep the innocent, etc.

A thousand chickens can't in any stretch of imagination be useful at all. Unable to bring about needed positive changes (often badly needed) and social progression to their society while 10 eagles would probably able to build a new nation.

As for the lone shooter he is a worm. A low human being. Probably read, breathe, eat, think, and feel worms.

[BossMark]

Dont forget the brainwashed zombies that follow those you just mentioned,they are all parts of the same cancer.
And its time a cure was found, as seen as they have the evil bastard in custardy I wonder if some one can see what is going on inside that evil head of his.Then put him out of his misery.

[Paul Riley]

A tribute to the northern lands

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0taOB_BSdPw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2C8ADBxyzI&feature=related

Stay strong Norway! :arrgh!:

[Paul Riley]

And its time a cure was found, as seen as they have the evil bastard in custardy I wonder if some one can see what is going on inside that evil head of his.Then put him out of his misery.

The cure is to embrace the old belief systems,for this modern world has become insane my friend :nope:
Hail our heathen forefathers!

(not trying to get political here,just sick of the madness today)

[TLAM Strike]

Info on the suspect:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/2011/07/23/2011-07-23_who_is_anders_behring_breivik_norway_shooting_s uspects_profile_emerges.html

Found this part interesting:
The shooter belongs to "right-wing circles" in Oslo, the city in which he resides, according to Norwegian TV2. Meanwhile, The Huffington Post (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Huffington+Post) cites the Swedish news site Expressen as saying that he is a "self-described nationalist who has also written a number of posts critical of Islam."So in the end it still comes down to Islam. There are some Jhadi groups who call this a holy war, well looks like someone may just have tried a counter attack for the west's side. :roll:

[Morts]

This is still beyond words for me.
My heart is with you, Norge.
gtfo you piece of s***, you belong to the same circles as the shooter.

[Gerald]

A pure speculation, that Islam would be heavily involved in this, and that is exactly in line with what some newspapers want some people to believe .... this is something completely different in my own opinion, the current situation, and that will change over time.Jhadi, and these groups have long engaged in holy war against the West, and they are known to be extremely controversial in his statements, and disgust with certain countries.

[Hottentot]

gtfo you piece of s***, you belong to the same circles as the shooter.

That does not make him the shooter, nor does it take away his right to express condolences, sincere or not. There are hundreds of threads in here in which you can attack Snestorm's background and believe me, in most of those I would support you (and Tribesman). But this is not one of those threads.

Guys. Please. I'm not trying to be a backseat mod, because I'm no mod in the first place. I'm just asking. Respectfully. Please.

[NeonSamurai]

Well as a front-seat moderator, I suggest people behave themselves here, otherwise you will be the one that gets into trouble in the end, and it is not worth it.

[Oberon]

Sheesh, this thread went to **** quickly. For gods sake, it's not about who is a neo-nazi or Muslims working as medics. It's one nutjob who did what nutjobs do, and thankfully he was captured before he turned the gun on himself and now he will face trial.

[joegrundman]

very well said, oberon

[Gerald]

gtfo you piece of s***, you belong to the same circles as the shooter. This statement can only be based on one thing, and that is because you know him, I would say you are wrong in that he would belong to these circles.

[Morts]

This statement can only be based on one thing, and that is because you know him, I would say you are wrong in that he would belong to these circles.
Do a little check up on the song he has in his sig.
That, and his posts have told me enough about his disgusting views.

[Gerald]

Do a little check up on the song he has in his sig.
That, and his posts have told me enough about his disgusting views. I am fully aware of what he has in his, signature .. and what it might stand for, this is individual, how it is interpreted, that text from youtube ... you come from the same country, and do not like him,this has nothing to do with his thoughts, like others of us have to them in Oslo, after yesterday's tragedy,different people like different things, right? And should be treated the same as long as they remain within prescribed limits, to my knowledge he has not crossed the line, but I'm not here 24 hours a day either ... so can not speak for the rest of the time.

[Oberon]

And should be treated the same as long as they remain within prescribed limits

Bingo. :yep: After all, is that not what 'Innocent until proven Guilty' is all about? After all, what is the difference between being anti-left or anti-right? It's all hate. You hate Neo-Nazis? Sure, many do, but to start demeaning a thread which is a tribute to those who lost their lives in Oslo with such heated rhetoric is just as bad as anything in his signature.

Come on...we're supposed to be better than this.

[Rilder]

Do a little check up on the song he has in his sig.
That, and his posts have told me enough about his disgusting views.

Judging People by the music they listen to? :nope: Yeah, stop, now.


As for the bombing, pretty terrible stuff. Bloody Fanaticism.

[Morts]

Judging People by the music they listen to? :nope: Yeah, stop, now.


As for the bombing, pretty terrible stuff. Bloody Fanaticism.
no, judging people by the message they send across

[Hottentot]

Why are the loonies always so vocal? I just learned that this one too wrote down his "deep and philosophical" thoughts and shared them in the internet, apparently thinking he is doing a favor for the mankind. I am not going to post links, but I'm just wondering what's with their fascination to wall of text rantings.

[Biggles]

and thankfully he was captured before he turned the gun on himself and now he will face trial.

This is a great relief for me. The thought that he'd end his own pathetic yet destructive life on his own terms just makes my blood boil. With him alive, we can also get a picture of his motives much faster, and I really would want to know. When something like this happens, one has to know, I guess. The very thought of him escaping this world without having to pay his debt makes my face twist in a foul grimace.

[Gerald]

I think that he had not thought of taking his own life also, police had the resources to take him by helicopter from the air with high-speed weapons with laser sighting.

[Hottentot]

I think that he had not thought of taking his own life

You might be right. And in that case I sincerely hope the tabloids won't make him a celebrity. Publicity for his thoughts is probably exactly what he wants.

[Gerald]

You might be right. And in that case I sincerely hope the tabloids won't make him a celebrity. Publicity for his thoughts is probably exactly what he wants. Maybe so ... he is probably sufficiently ill, and mentally damaged already, so he will not notice anything.

[joegrundman]

This is a great relief for me. The thought that he'd end his own pathetic yet destructive life on his own terms just makes my blood boil. With him alive, we can also get a picture of his motives much faster, and I really would want to know. When something like this happens, one has to know, I guess. The very thought of him escaping this world without having to pay his debt makes my face twist in a foul grimace.

his debt is beyond what can be paid

[Tribesman]

This statement can only be based on one thing, and that is because you know him, I would say you are wrong in that he would belong to these circles.
Sorry Vendor I was going to refrain, but don't talk so silly as that is disrespectful to the victims.
Dansk volk, Christian identity, C18, Knights of the...all the bloody same hate filled racist bastards who believe in violence as for saving of the "white race superiority" from the jewish/negro conspiracy.
He nailed his colours to ther mast so many times you cannot give him any leeway at all in regards to those "circles"

[joegrundman]

so were his victims jews or muslims or what?

[Gerald]

Sorry Vendor I was going to refrain, but don't talk so silly as that is disrespectful to the victims.
Dansk volk, Christian identity, C18, Knights of the...all the bloody same hate filled racist bastards who believe in violence as for saving of the "white race superiority" from the jewish/negro conspiracy.
He nailed his colours to ther mast so many times you cannot give him any leeway at all in regards to those "circles" Are you saying I have violated the Norwegian people, with that statement, regarding a comment made in a different record, you're in deep water and you know it already ... and of these "circles", you have no idea what it is.

[Tribesman]

Are you saying I have violated the Norwegian people, with that statement, regarding a comment made in a different record, you're in deep water and you know it already ... and of these "circles", you have no idea what it is.
No I am saying you are defending the past statements of a neo nazi white supremacist from scandinavia in a topic about a terrible atrocity by a scandinavian neo nazi white supremacist.
The only "deep water" left is for the poor kids who didn't swim fast enough to get away from the bastard and are still missing.

[Gerald]

No I am saying you are defending the past statements of a neo nazi white supremacist from scandinavia in a topic about a terrible atrocity by a scandinavian neo nazi white supremacist.
The only "deep water" left is for the poor kids who didn't swim fast enough to get away from the bastard and are still missing. I no defense neo Nazi white supremacist from Scandinavia, which I do not know if this is so or not, but I made a statement that his comments to the Norwegian people of yesterday's tragedy, which is legitimate to do, whatever his other opinions, the are two different things, and such simple things you should probably be able to remember.

[Tribesman]

I must say I was tempted to take this to PM with vendor.
But given the nature of the atrocity and it likely impact (not only on this continent but with increased warnings worldwide)...(like shoot the "******" 'freedom of speech' as example) perhaps not.
After all this is serious SH one T which seems to be growing

I do not know if this is so or not,
Sorry vendor, it is easy to measure, his statement counts for nothing while he has his usual link to scandinavian neo nazis under everything he writes.
It would be, to use his own word, hypocritical.
Even if he removed the link and all his past white supremacist rants it would still weigh on the occasion as past performance

You say you do not know if it is or not, for a journalsit such as yourself it should be easy, follow the link.
If the scandinavian neo nazi link he provides doesn't lead on to plenty of scandinavian neo nazi scum then I fully and most heartily apologise.

whatever his other opinions, the are two different things, and such simple things you should probably be able to remember.
It may be easier to forget, if he didn't nail his white supremacist nordic neo nazism to every post he made on the forum....
I am sure you must understand that if someone underlines everything they write with neo nazi crap they get associated as a neo nazi crap merchant in everthing they write.

[Spoon 11th]

No I am saying you are defending the past statements of a neo nazi white supremacist from scandinavia in a topic about a terrible atrocity by a scandinavian neo nazi white supremacist.
The only "deep water" left is for the poor kids who didn't swim fast enough to get away from the bastard and are still missing.
Mass murderer Anders Behring Breivik is anti-racist, pro-homosexual, pro-Israel, anti-immigration, anti-islam and wants same kind of isolationism policy in Europe, that Japan and South-Korea adheres. The attack was an act of war against multiculturalist alliance.

[Tribesman]

Spoon, how many contradictions can you fit in a post?

[krashkart]

Tribesman, whatever it was that the link pointed to has been taken down by YouTube for copyright violations. Not that it really matters, as this thread has absolutely nothing to do with a controversial link in a signature. Can we drop it and move on now, please? ;)

[Tribesman]

Can we drop it and move on now, please?
Ok as long as no one steps in to defend the act of war against multiculturalist alliance as that might open a whole new can of worms in relation to white supremacists in scandanavia

[Jimbuna]

I've been following the Sky News updates on the story at work and was quite suprised to learn that the stiffest penalty he can expect under Norwegian law is 21 years imprisonment :hmmm:

[Catfish]

Hello,

Bossmark wrote:
If I hadnt paid my morgage off last year then I would certainly bet it all on it being those loony murdering bastards al qaeda

If you would not have paid off your mortgage you would have lost it by now :-?

What i don't understand is why a "white supremacist" or neo nazi would kill other "white superior beings" and innocent children; i mean what "moral" standards could he claim - well he is obviously crazy.

Also seems he acted alone, hearing of right wing connections i already thought of "Gladio" and state terrorism.

Greetings,
Catfish

[Jimbuna]

If I hadnt paid my morgage off last year then I would certainly bet it all on it being those loony murdering bastards al qaeda



I'll be around for the deeds first thing tomorrow :DL

[Torplexed]

Must admit there is a weird irony in the fact that a terrible act committed by a right-wing, self confessed Muslim hater was initially claimed by a Muslim extremist group, albeit a group no one has ever heard of before.

[Gerald]

I must say I was tempted to take this to PM with vendor.
But given the nature of the atrocity and it likely impact (not only on this continent but with increased warnings worldwide)...(like shoot the "******" 'freedom of speech' as example) perhaps not.
After all this is serious SH one T which seems to be growing


Sorry vendor, it is easy to measure, his statement counts for nothing while he has his usual link to scandinavian neo nazis under everything he writes.
It would be, to use his own word, hypocritical.
Even if he removed the link and all his past white supremacist rants it would still weigh on the occasion as past performance

You say you do not know if it is or not, for a journalsit such as yourself it should be easy, follow the link.
If the scandinavian neo nazi link he provides doesn't lead on to plenty of scandinavian neo nazi scum then I fully and most heartily apologise.


It may be easier to forget, if he didn't nail his white supremacist nordic neo nazism to every post he made on the forum....
I am sure you must understand that if someone underlines everything they write with neo nazi crap they get associated as a neo nazi crap merchant in everthing they write. So now I am therefore a journalist in your eyes, and do not know what the difference is in what people post, these fantasies, you get to keep, in what you consider to be relevant, this was not about his opinions, and what he stands for, for so much, you must have understood that he expressed himself emotionally, about what happened in Oslo, and nothing else....when dealing with radical groups such as neo-nazi, so they're hardly news to me, but it is quite another thing.

[Gerald]

I've been following the Sky News updates on the story at work and was quite suprised to learn that the stiffest penalty he can expect under Norwegian law is 21 years imprisonment :hmmm: Yes, if the law be followed in "the act of terror" so it may be so, but justice in Norway will likely show another, which is not inconceivable.

[Tribesman]

this was not about his opinions, and what he stands for
It is exactly that.

you must have understood that he expressed himself emotionally, about what happened in Oslo, and nothing else
That means nothing when he expresses the same views as that murdering bastard in Oslo and makes a point of underlining everthing he writes with the same message of hate filled neo nazi bigotry.

[Jimbuna]

So is it possible a sentence in excess of twenty one years is possible?

[Gerald]

We are in disagreement on this.

[Skybird]

so were his victims jews or muslims or what?Probably all that, plus Christians and atheists. The point is: the summer camp on that isle was run by the socialist party of Norway, with meetings and discussions of socialist political issues. So sympathy for socialism probably is the primary characteristic all young people being there had in common.

However, I noted a probably unintended coincidence in German TV news early Saturday evening. In a broadcast from the scene, they interviewed 6 or 7 young people who escaped, but had been there. One was an obviously Scandianvian girl, white, blond. The others all where Arab/ME-looking people, definitely no Scandinavians. :D No joke, but true.

The attacker obviously had an evil but yet precisely functioning mind, his plan, although intended to cause terror, was well laid out and made sense - from his ice-cold point of view. First he distracted and bound the police by the bomb in Oslo, then struck at thereal primary target of his, the camp - on an isle where the police could not reach quickly, and his victims could not easily escape and were helpless prey to be hunted down in a small, limited environment, making the job all the easier for the hunter - and them all representing the future of the country, the socialist future of the party he probably has a strong dislike for, and that he probably also holds responsible for the migration policy of Norway that also sees substantial Muslim migration - with Islam being one of the things he expressed criticism for on his internet appearances.

In the way the android in Alien 1 says something like that he admired the conceptual clearity of the alien monster as an evolutionary design that represents a flawless predator that does not get hindred by any scruples of moral nature, one must admit that the plan of this assassin was brilliant, too, and unfortunately worked out to be almost perfect. This is no expression of admiration or smyptahy of mine - it is just an objective observation.

In the media here, they quoted from his internet appearances. Nothing of those quotes on German TV was explicitly Nazi-like, or hateful and irrational on Islam, but sounded quite determined, but sober, not that much different than what I criticise Islam for, what I say is even more aggressive than those quotes they showed. However, media here already link him not to the "right political" scene, which would be more precise maybe by those quotes they gave over here, but claim he had links to the "Nazi" scene. They also called him an Islam-hater, while the quotes they gave by him on that program were anything but hateful, just very critical of it in the same way like I am. When dealing with mass murderers and wanting to profile themn, such precision nevertheless is a necessity - clouding the murderer's psyche and intellect by labels that are politically opportune, does not help the cause of wanting to understand how his minds ticks. But you need to understand how he ticks if you want to increase chances, though in a theoretical understanding only, to prevent events like this horror now.

What also gets mentioned, is the idea that he represents a Christian fundamentalist sect or community or education. They did not give quotes so far (on German TV at last) that would inbdicate that, but it is possible that belief of a religious kind, or a cultural self-conception linked to that, indeed is part of the casue that made him tick out: his only one tweet-quote he left, is an indication for that, saying something like that one person with a strong belief is worth more than a 100,000 people with just ideas. Whether he meant "religious" belief or belief as a more general strong conviction, the Tweet-quote does not reveal.

Just some objective observations and emotionless thoughts of mine. Do not mistake them with any attempt of mine to relativise what he did. He is a monster - but an extremely intelligent one, in his way.

Also, very important: from a police-psychologist's point of view, he is no amok runner. Amok runners plan and execute their own killing in the end. It is reported he did not even attempt to not survive. This one is a guy with a mission that he plans to defend and justify. No amok run. The cold-blooded brilliance and precision by which he thought out and executed his plan, also speaks against the amok runner theory. If any psychological label is wanted, "psychopath" would meet several diagnostic key criterias like lacking empathy, lacking scruples to lie, betray and manipulate others (or to kill them), and rationalising the mistreaterment of the other for one's own interest. The own interest in this case would be the justification of his own cause.

[Gerald]

So is it possible a sentence in excess of twenty one years is possible? But as he undergoes a mental examination, to exclude refractions, as he "might" was when the offense was running, so the sentence can be shorter than 21 years or more, (if it turns out that he had mental disorders, on paper) or no one forgets to lock the door in the prison, then it will be much shorter, but the prosecutor will press for maximum penalties of at least anyway.

[Onkel Neal]

Sheesh, this thread went to **** quickly. For gods sake, it's not about who is a neo-nazi or Muslims working as medics. It's one nutjob who did what nutjobs do, and thankfully he was captured before he turned the gun on himself and now he will face trial.


Well said.

People, please keep your comments civil.

My condolences to the people of Norway, Texas supports you. This is a national tragedy, the time to discuss the other things is later. For now, support these people, they are stricken.

[Jimbuna]

But as he undergoes a mental examination, to exclude refractions, as he "might" was when the offense was running, so the sentence can be shorter than 21 years or more, (if it turns out that he had mental disorders, on paper) or no one forgets to lock the door in the prison, then it will be much shorter, but the prosecutor will press for maximum penalties of at least anyway.


I guessed that because it's similar in most Western European countries.

The question I was asking "So is it possible a sentence in excess of twenty one years is possible"?

[Gerald]

I guessed that because it's similar in most Western European countries.

The question I was asking "So is it possible a sentence in excess of twenty one years is possible"? Yes it is, if no other event coming up, which I see as not very significant!

[TLAM Strike]

The attacker obviously had an evil but yet precisely functioning mind, his plan, although intended to cause terror, was well laid out and made sense - from his ice-cold point of view. First he distracted and bound the police by the bomb in Oslo, then struck at thereal primary target of his, the camp - on an isle where the police could not reach quickly, and his victims could not easily escape and were helpless prey to be hunted down in a small, limited environment, making the job all the easier for the hunter - and them all representing the future of the country, the socialist future of the party he probably has a strong dislike for, and that he probably also holds responsible for the migration policy of Norway that also sees substantial Muslim migration - with Islam being one of the things he expressed criticism for on his internet appearances. Yes I agree with your analysis, I think he targeted the leftest part of the Norwegian political system that he sees as allowing for a mass Muslim immigration of his country for destruction and he picked the weakest target in that area, their children. Which also has the additional effect of reducing the "leftest elite" of the future giving his faction a future advantage.

To echo Sky, this is just subjective analysis on my part.

[Jimbuna]

Yes it is, if no other event coming up, which I see as not very significant!

Ah, right...fingers crossed then.

[Skybird]

German newspaper Die Welt claims to have an original copy of a 1500 :o paged manifest by the murderer, in which he describes the desatruction of Wetsern culture by a union of Marxists and Muslims with abusing multiculturalism as their primary weapon to achieve this. He calls for battle against multiculturalists and Muslim migration into Europe, and quotes even one of my own favourite German writers Henryk Broder who said that he doubts that the Europeans have the will to resist to the Islamisation of Europe. He calls for armed resistence and deportation and recommends people to stockpile weapons for the coming civil war, and he demands a reorientation of the national policy to focus on fostering agriculture, medicine and craftsmanships. He signed this manifest with something like "Poor Knights of Christ and the Salomonic Temple", and links himself and the needed future political system in Europe to the system of the order of the Temnple Knights and something that he calls a Russian administrative democracy, since democracy of the current type has failed. He counts for 45.000 killed multiculturalists and Marxists in the coming fight, and one million wounded, and gives explantions on how to build big bombs. The EU should be destroyed, the national government should be replaced since they were no longer truly democratic, the military should be strenghened, there should be a mandatory birth quota for women in Europe and a complete deportation of Muslims out of Europe.

Original quotes (in German translation) here:
http://www.welt.de/vermischtes/article13504232/Terrorist-veroeffentlicht-vor-der-Tat-Manifest.html

As I said: no amok runner who just ticked out over emotional breakdown, but a guy seeing himself on a mission to save the world. His intellect is precisely working in an instrumental, short-reaching understanding, but he shows signs of megalomania, messiah-syndrome and omni-potence, and his visions mislead him since he seems to have lost track of reality and what realistically can be achieved (or not being able to logically combine all the lose ends from his many theories, leaving him with just his disaconnected-from-reality conclusions).

1500 pages. :dead: Never ever complain again about any of my essays! He definitely is mentally deranged. Intelligent in a way, but mentally deranged nevertheless.

[Gerald]

I have read some of the material, and the person using an alias ... and yes it can be drawn conclusions, but is the subject of proper speculation whether this is driven hard.

[Feuer Frei!]

Update:

The man accused of a massacre at a youth camp in Norway and a bombing in the capital, Oslo, has admitted responsibility, his lawyer says.
Anders Behring Breivik, 32, described his actions as "gruesome but necessary", and said he would explain himself at a court hearing on Monday.
"He thought it was gruesome having to commit these acts, but in his head they were necessary," Mr Breivik's lawyer Geir Lippestad told Norwegian media.

SOURCE (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14265094)

[BossMark]

I'll be around for the deeds first thing tomorrow :DL
:oops: How wrong could I be, and reading a post further down the max this lunatic can get is 21 years imprisonment ?

[Jimbuna]

German newspaper Die Welt claims to have an original copy of a 1500 :o paged manifest by the murderer, in which he describes the desatruction of Wetsern culture by a union of Marxists and Muslims with abusing multiculturalism as their primary weapon to achieve this. He calls for battle against multiculturalists and Muslim migration into Europe, and quotes even one of my own favourite German writers Henryk Broder who said that he doubts that the Europeans have the will to resist to the Islamisation of Europe. He calls for armed resistence and deportation and recommends people to stockpile weapons for the coming civil war, and he demands a reorientation of the national policy to focus on fostering agriculture, medicine and craftsmanships. He signed this manifest with something like "Poor Knights of Christ and the Salomonic Temple", and links himself and the needed future political system in Europe to the system of the order of the Temnple Knights and something that he calls a Russian administrative democracy, since democracy of the current type has failed. He counts for 45.000 killed multiculturalists and Marxists in the coming fight, and one million wounded, and gives explantions on how to build big bombs. The EU should be destroyed, the national government should be replaced since they were no longer truly democratic, the military should be strenghened, there should be a mandatory birth quota for women in Europe and a complete deportation of Muslims out of Europe.

Original quotes (in German translation) here:
http://www.welt.de/vermischtes/article13504232/Terrorist-veroeffentlicht-vor-der-Tat-Manifest.html

As I said: no amok runner who just ticked out over emotional breakdown, but a guy seeing himself on a mission to save the world. His intellect is precisely working in an instrumental, short-reaching understanding, but he shows signs of megalomania, messiah-syndrome and omni-potence, and his visions mislead him since he seems to have lost track of reality and what realistically can be achieved (or not being able to logically combine all the lose ends from his many theories, leaving him with just his disaconnected-from-reality conclusions).

1500 pages. :dead: Never ever complain again about any of my essays! He definitely is mentally deranged. Intelligent in a way, but mentally deranged nevertheless.

Update:

The man accused of a massacre at a youth camp in Norway and a bombing in the capital, Oslo, has admitted responsibility, his lawyer says.
Anders Behring Breivik, 32, described his actions as "gruesome but necessary", and said he would explain himself at a court hearing on Monday.
"He thought it was gruesome having to commit these acts, but in his head they were necessary," Mr Breivik's lawyer Geir Lippestad told Norwegian media.

SOURCE (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14265094)

Well it doesn't look like he's going to be around to participate :nope:

[Jimbuna]

:oops: How wrong could I be, and reading a post further down the max this lunatic can get is 21 years imprisonment ?

Apparently not...if I'm interpreting Vendor @ #129 correctly.

[BossMark]

This bloke is a insane maniac and should be put out of his misery

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14265094

[Skybird]

Don't know about Norway, but in Germany, extremely dangerous offenders, usually sex offenders, also offenders with mental diseases like sociopathy, could serve their prison penalty and afterwards being brought into a closed, prison-like facility for something that is called "Sicherheitsverwahrung" over here. But the EU has objected to that meanwhile, and the system sees chnages, which led to the enforced release (against better police knowledge, I must add) of 60 sex offenders recently, at least two of which I remember to have heared to have committed new crimes against kids meanwhile whom they raped again. They were given the opportunity to do so in the name of freedom and a humanitarian, liberal society. :yeah:

The releases also lead to some hilarioius police operation, costing millions, becasyue several of these men are being monitored by 2-4 man teams around the clock.

However, the prinicple possibility of a post-prison "Sicherheitsverwahrung" maybe exists in Norwegian law. As long as the EU does not slap them and says "nonononono!" again.

[karyvi2]

...to all the victims of this horrible disaster .

[Schroeder]

However, I noted a probably unintended coincidence in German TV news early Saturday evening. In a broadcast from the scene, they interviewed 6 or 7 young people who escaped, but had been there. One was an obviously Scandianvian girl, white, blond. The others all where Arab/ME-looking people, definitely no Scandinavians.

Noticed that too when watching the "Tageschschau" yesterday. I guess that's what made the camp the target.

[Jimbuna]

Been watching Sky and BBC News for the last hour and the Oslo Police Chief has stated that the gunman has admitted what he has done but doesn't feel he has done anything wrong:o

Both channels are also confirming that the maximum sentence cannot exceed 21 years.

[BossMark]

Hasn't done anything wrong? :doh: this bloke is really a sad bastard, so in say 21 years time this tosser will be released from jail and repeat all this again :nope:

[Jimbuna]

Hasn't done anything wrong? :doh: this bloke is really a sad bastard, so in say 21 years time this tosser will be released from jail and repeat all this again :nope:

My sentiments entirely.

[Feuer Frei!]

Update 24 July, 10:48:

"He wanted a change in society and, from his perspective, he needed to force through a revolution," Mr Lippestad said. "He wished to attack society and the structure of society."

His lawyer, Mr Lippestad, said: "He's stated that he went to Utoeya to give the Labour Party a warning that 'doomsday would be imminent' unless the party changed its policies."
Mr Lippestad says the suspect remained calmed and balanced throughout a 10-hour night of interrogation.
"I think he's realised what he's done, and he views himself as sane," he said.




SOURCE (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14266815)

[VirtualVikingX]

21 years is the max punishment. Dangerous persons may however be keep after their sentence is finished. Technically that is Not punishment but protection of society.

[Spoon 11th]

** removed **

[Oberon]

I think what Vendor is trying to say is that in the justice system he can only receive 21 years, but I think that in prison he may last a lot less...and in fact may make use of his shoelaces...or someone else will make use of them for him. If he is still alive after 21 years then he'll probably be put somewhere secure for his own protection rather than for others.

You don't become the biggest mass murderer in Norwegian history and just walk away...of that I am sure.

[Oberon]

I think we're going to see a lot more of what Spoon has posted springing up, I can't say I'm surprised that this has happened, surprised where it happened, and saddened by it...but not entirely surprised. We have been in an ideological war since 9/11. Nutters on both sides have been at it and unfortunately it is the ordinary folk that get caught in the crossfire. :nope:

[Tribesman]

I think we're going to see a lot more of what Spoon has posted springing up
Nothing new, look at that murdering prick Copeland and his loony rants, exactly the same crap as this idiot wrote, he too saw nothing wrong with what he was doing.

We have been in an ideological war since 9/11
It goes back way before then.

Nutters on both sides have been at it and unfortunately it is the ordinary folk that get caught in the crossfire.
No, the nutters are on the same side even though they "think" they are opposites. there is no real difference between jihadi nuts and christian identity scum..they are all just sick murdering bastards with twisted minds.

[Oberon]

For once, we agree. They are both driven by their twisted version of 'justice', be they Muslim, Christian, Left or Right wing...it's got nothing to do with what religion or political leanings they have.

Sometimes I wonder how the internet has affected things in terms of the spread of radical views and the influence on those who are prepared to take things one step further.

[Torplexed]

Sometimes I wonder how the internet has affected things in terms of the spread of radical views and the influence on those who are prepared to take things one step further.

Probably the same thing it's done for any group with fringe beliefs on the internet. They discover there are like-minded fanatics out there. They develop a warped sense of community feeding off each others worst fears and beliefs and go to great pains to shut any dissenting views out.

[Foxtrot]

He looks like a character from warlock movies

[Skybird]

He has done no good service to people being critical of Islam and multiculuralism and the EU. When somebody now criticises Europe for becoming more Islamic and ignoring unwanted harsh realities about Muslim migration, he now will be confronted with "You like what happened in Utoya, eh? Want to kill them all, right? You are a potential massmurder yourself, you just don'T have the guts to do it, what?" Islam-critics already get brandmarked as insanes, as Islamophobes, as Nazis, to gag them in advance and not needing to deal with their arguments. Now they will be called potential massmurderers as well.

Great. What he did, in the longer run will help the left and Islam and the EU. Exactly the opposite of what he wanted to acchieve.

[Safe-Keeper]

As for the prison sentence...

21 years is a very, very, very long time. I'm 25, turning 26 in October, so basically that's my entire life. Just the idea of spending that long in prison is terrifying to me. This guy is 32, so if he was to spend 21 years locked away, he'd be 53 when he was finally let out. That's basically half his life gone. Considering he was a social failure who lived at home with his mother, I don't think he's got too many prior achievements to speak off, and now he won't be able to make too many more. He'll spend the next quarter of a century in prison as public enemy number one, surrounded by people who want him dead, and he will probably never, ever feel safe out on the streets again.

But the bottom line is, we're Norwegians. We don't throw people in jail to satisfy people with an axe to grind. We lock them away because they're a threat to themselves or others, or when they've committed a crime and need to be punished and rehabilitated. As the Prime Minister said, no one can bomb or shoot us from being Norway.

Even when he's served his sentence, he'll remain behind bars for as long as we deem him a threat to society. He'll never hurt a single person again, except perhaps himself.

If that doesn't satisfy your bloodlust sufficiently, pity. We're not doing it for you.

Don't know about Norway, but in Germany, extremely dangerous offenders, usually sex offenders, also offenders with mental diseases like sociopathy, could serve their prison penalty and afterwards being brought into a closed, prison-like facility for something that is called "Sicherheitsverwahrung" over here.We've got the same system. We call it forvaring, which seems to mean something like, well, safe-keeping (best I could think of). It's worse than prison in that you never know for how long you will remain in there. Could be five years, could be fifty. I imagine the security at those facilities is far higher, too.

He has done no good service to people being critical of Islam and multiculuralism and the EU. When somebody now criticises Europe for becoming more Islamic and ignoring unwanted harsh realities about Muslim migration, he now will be confronted with "You like what happened in Utoya, eh? Want to kill them all, right? You are a potential massmurder yourself, you just don'T have the guts to do it, what?" Islam-critics already get brandmarked as insanes, as Islamophobes, as Nazis, to gag them in advance and not needing to deal with their arguments. Now they will be called potential massmurderers as well.

Great. What he did, in the longer run will help the left and Islam and the EU. Exactly the opposite of what he wanted to acchieve. My heart bleeds for you.

[BossMark]

As for the prison sentence...

21 years is a very, very, very long time. I'm 25, turning 26 in October, so basically that's my entire life. Just the idea of spending that long in prison is terrifying to me. This guy is 32, so if he was to spend 21 years locked away, he'd be 53 when he was finally let out. That's basically half his life gone. Considering he was a social failure who lived at home with his mother, I don't think he's got too many prior achievements to speak off, and now he won't be able to make too many more. He'll spend the next quarter of a century in prison as public enemy number one, surrounded by people who want him dead, and he will probably never, ever feel safe out on the streets again.

But the bottom line is, we're Norwegians. We don't throw people in jail to satisfy people with an axe to grind. We lock them away because they're a threat to themselves or others, or when they've committed a crime and need to be punished and rehabilitated. As the Prime Minister said, no one can bomb or shoot us from being Norway.

Even when he's served his sentence, he'll remain behind bars for as long as we deem him a threat to society. He'll never hurt a single person again, except perhaps himself.

If that doesn't satisfy your bloodlust sufficiently, pity. We're not doing it for you.


Nice post and very well put

[Hottentot]

For what it's worth: flags in here have been raised halfway to the pole and at least some of the biggest cities (including my own) are having a mourning moment with candles being brought to the centres. I wish we could do more.

[Penguin]

worth quoting:


Det er et budskap fra hele Norge:
Dere skal ikke få ødelegge oss.
Dere skal ikke få ødelegge vårt demokrati og vårt engasjement for en bedre verden.
Vi er en liten nasjon, men vi er en stolt nasjon.
Ingen skal få bombe oss til taushet.
Ingen skal få skyte oss til taushet.
Ingen skal noensinne få skremme oss fra å være Norge.
[...]
I morgen skal vi vise verden at det norske demokratiet blir sterkere når det gjelder.


This is a message from whole Norway.
You will not destroy us.
You will not destroy our democracy and commitment for a better world.
We are a little nation, but we are a proud nation.
Nobody will bomb us into silence.
Nobody will shoot us into silence.
Nobody will ever scare us from being Norway.
We will show the world that the norwegian democracy becomes stronger when it's deemed to be.

(translation by me)


Frankly I don't know much about Stoltenberg's politics, but hats off to these good words. As I am sucker for original sources I looked for Stoltenberg's speech on norway.no. When searching for the name of the prime minister 0 hits. However a link to the official government site. This I found very sympathetic. On this site I found literally all informations about proposals, press papers, basically all the government works on, all with one click - we all know that sadly they have more important things to do than updating a webpage. I just write this as an example of one of the little things why I think Norway is a well working democracy when I compare to a banana republic like Germany.

I liked that Stoltenberg said he wants to try more democracy, however less naivety. I am happy that he did not propose a patriot-act.no. In Germany we already have the agitators, who call for more surveillance and less citizens rights. I have stomach aches when I think about the political consequences if a tragedy like this would happen here...

So my respect as well as my deeply felt condolences go to the Norwegian public, who defend their democracy and who did not storm onto the streets and beat down the next guy who looks like a terrorist - however one may look like.
Glad to have you as our 2-doors away neighbor - stay as you are! :salute:


@Spoon 11th:
I would find it more appropriate to the victims, if you refrain from posting propaganda from the lunatic here, a link to the picture would be sufficient.
If someone is interested in the guy's mindset, the wiki article about him has enough links to reading material.
Cheers & thanks!

[Safe-Keeper]

I couldn't find a subtitled version of his speech, but here is one with a running translation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRy-mOMqS_w

This is what Norway is all about. Beautiful.

[Tribesman]

He has done no good service to people being critical of Islam and multiculuralism and the EU


Some people just can't make the connection:doh:

My heart bleeds for you.
Safe-Keeper, I wish I had your restraint:salute:

Sometimes I wonder how the internet has affected things in terms of the spread of radical views and the influence on those who are prepared to take things one step further.
It is a major factor, not only for race or religiously bigoted scum but also for "causeless" crazies.

[Safe-Keeper]

There's a certain hilarious irony in that the original reaction from so many was so anti-immigrant and anti-Islamic, to the nature of "this is what happens when we let that kind of people into our countries!"... and then it turned out the perp was a right-wing, anti-immigrant islamophobe.

The delete buttons ran hot on certain peoples' computers on that day:03:.

[Hottentot]

Well, it wasn't a Buddhist.

[Safe-Keeper]

Not this time, no. But you just know it won't be long before they pull something again, the scheming *******s.
:p

[krashkart]

I think what Vendor is trying to say is that in the justice system he can only receive 21 years, but I think that in prison he may last a lot less...and in fact may make use of his shoelaces...or someone else will make use of them for him. If he is still alive after 21 years then he'll probably be put somewhere secure for his own protection rather than for others.

You don't become the biggest mass murderer in Norwegian history and just walk away...of that I am sure.


If I understand correctly, childkillers don't last long in general population -- at least here in the States. I guess we could cross our fingers and hope he doesn't get segregated out 'for his own safety'. :hmmm:

[Rilder]

http://kotaku.com/5824147/oslo-terrorist-anders-behring-breivik-used-modern-warfare-2-as-training+simulation-world-of-warcraft-as-cover
Great, here comes the Anti-Gaming crusade. :shifty:

(Though Modern Warfare 2? Seriously? That game is terrible, how can you even use it as simulation?)

[krashkart]

http://kotaku.com/5824147/oslo-terrorist-anders-behring-breivik-used-modern-warfare-2-as-training+simulation-world-of-warcraft-as-cover
Great, here comes the Anti-Gaming crusade. :shifty:

It is to be expected when things like this happen. DOOM took a lot of heat after Columbine, and there is hardly anything realistic about that game.

When these tragedies happen people always have to stop and ask, "Why do these things happen?". The quest for answers leads in many directions, some more misleading than others. *shrug*

[Flaxpants]

My deepest condolences for all those who have lost loved ones in Norway.
And here's hoping there's no segregation for this guy...

One question I keep hearing reporters asking officials is "Has this man been motivated to do this by right-wing extremist views or his he simply a Madman?"... Is it just me or is this question ridiculous? - He's clearly insane in the sense that he is a danger to society, and in my opinion his personal views are all but irrelevant.

[Oberon]

http://www.maximumpc.com/files/u94712/jt.png

[Safe-Keeper]

One question I keep hearing reporters asking officials is "Has this man been motivated to do this by right-wing extremist views or his he simply a Madman?"... Is it just me or is this question ridiculous? - He's clearly insane in the sense that he is a danger to society, and in my opinion his personal views are all but irrelevant. I find this view interesting.

When Muslim organizations shoot people, or blow something up, or carry out acts of sabotage, or call in threats, they're called terrorists. As was the case here.

Then it became clear he's a white, Norwegian, right-wing fundamentalist Christian, and then all of a sudden the act was no longer to be viewed a politically/religiously motivated terrorist act, but just a senseless killing spree by a madman.

Sorry, but this guy wrote a 1500 page book outlining his views. He planned the attack for eight years. If this attack was not a political terrorist act, then neither was 9/11 or Oklahoma or 7/7 or USS Cole.

[RickC Sniper]

I thought they were called a domestic terrorist, period.

[Gorduz]

actually here in Norway everyone still refers to it as a terrorist attack

[Biggles]

actually here in Norway everyone still refers to it as a terrorist attack

Rightfully so, if you ask me!

[andritsos]

just a thought that came from a person near me and made me think a bit about something: if on that island there was a reunion/event of a political party/youth camp , indipendently of which party, it isnt a little bit concerning also having pupils of 14-17 years of age that are take part at an organised political event?( to what extent can they have a clear political opinion , confrontation with other opinions etc withouth being directed?)

PS. I most probably be wrong as i am sorry to say, but I had learned most of it today as i have been to the mountain with few to no use of TV for some days, so if i proove to be wrong or have no-sense just tell me
I understand offcourse that there are more important things to affront but i didnt wanted to forget this question now that remembered it

Is there preventive detention ( or a name in german) legal applicable in Norway?

[Penguin]

just a thought that came from a person near me and made me think a bit about something: if on that island there was a reunion/event of a political party/youth camp , indipendently of which party, it isnt a little bit concerning also having pupils of 14-17 years of age that are take part at an organised political event?( to what extent can they have a clear political opinion , confrontation with other opinions etc withouth being directed?)


I presume you are German? It's not uncommon here, too. The Jusos (young socialdemocrats) here also have 14 years as minimum age, same with the Junge Union (young conservatives). Remember, it's also the age where you get the right to choose your own religion, so I see no problem with choosing a political direction at this age.


Is there preventive detention ( or a name in german) legal applicable in Norway?

A Norwegian might answer this probably better than me, however I think you mean "Sicherheitsverwahrung" - I think the English term is a little misleading here. The Norway law has this also, called Forvaring: http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forvaring. The 21 year limit also seems to apply here, however wiki states that a judge might extend the prison term for 5 more years.

On a sidenote: I also remember being in the mountains for a few days, when the pogrom in Rostock-Lichtenhagen happened(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riot_of_Rostock-Lichtenhagen). It felt so unreal to be back in "reality".:shifty:

[Skybird]

Henryk M. Broder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henryk_Broder)is a favourite commentor and writer on contemporary issues of mine. He writes books, and for newspappers like Die Welt and formerly, Der Spiegel. He is witty, has a dark, often sarcastic sense of humour that respects nothing, not even the Holocaust (he is a Polish Jew whose family has been in the camps camps), and has a very sharp tongue. Breivik quoted him, and Broder reacted to that in this article which i found very good and right in mark, so I took the time to translate it manually.

This was an original German release on Welt Online.

---

The manifest of Anders Behring Breivik, and me

(Henryk M. Broder, translated by Skybird)

Our author gets quoted in the 1500 paged manifest of assassin Anders Breivik. He describes on Welt Online, how it could get to that.
---

So this is a a causal chain: roughly 5 years ago I gave an interview to a Dutch newspaper, where I said that if I were younger, I would leave Europe and move to a country that was not threatened by a sneaking Islamisation.

This interview then got quoted by the Islam-critical Norwegian blogger "Fjordman" in one of his texts. The "Fjordman"-text

("Islamisation and Cowardice in Scandinavia": http://www.achgut.com/dadgdx/index.php/dadgd/article/me_and_the_manifesto/ )

now is to be found in full length in the "manifest" of Norwegian Breivik, who killed 76 people in two strikes. And as soon as that, me and other fellow travellers are declared responsible for these strikes:

Writes Turkish Ercan Tekin on the website Turkishpress: "Wilders, Sarrazin and Broder along with the whole udder-clique (=Euterclique) can be proud of having raised this breed with their atmosphere of "constructive debate" (=Streitkultur), and have in the name of freedom and Christian-democratic love for thy next exposed as targets all those "Gutmenschen", leftists, liberals and Muslims who were not d'accord with this sick way of thinking." Headlined as "Wilders, Sarrazin, Broder - intellectual arsonists?", the question mark at the end of the headline had a rather rethoric function only.

By "udder-clique" are meant Seyran Ates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seyran_Ate%C5%9F), Necla Kelek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necla_Kelek), Güner Balci (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%BCner_Balci), Cigdem Toprak (http://de-de.facebook.com/pages/Cigdem-Toprak/179643645387327#!/pages/Cigdem-Toprak/179643645387327?sk=info) and other journalists, who the writer for Turkishpress despises so very much that he could not bring their names over his lips.

With a bit more finesse it was formulated by Patrick Gensing on the homepage of Tagesschau.de . "The fight of the right extremists for more freedom" had turned into it's "opposite", the "consequences" were "intolerance, hate, and now even mass murder", he wrote.

He adds cream to his analysis by this advice: "Maybe the events give food for thought to burgoise circles in German society, who love to coquet with alleged breakings of taboos." Gensing not only lumbs together "rightwing radicals" and "burgoise circles", he attacks them both also for the same crime: to have paved the way for this mass murder by "breaking taboos". (Skybird: Broder means the ongoing debate over the failing of integration of Islamic migrants in Europe, where labelling the integration as failed indeed marks a breaking of a long-standing habit here ein Germany).

This is as logical and convincing as if somebody would hold both cannibals and vegans responsible of having ruined food culture.

Nevertheless I have a certain understanding for this kind of arguing. The deed this Norwegian has committed, is so monsterous, perverse and unbelievable, that one is tempted to accept just any explanation for it just in order to understand it.

Strealing food in a supermarket means the offender had hunger, who sets cars on fire by night has something against rich people (Skybird: he refers to Berlin were "autonomous" people set ablaze cars almost every night now), and who abuses a child, has had a dififcult childhood himself. But what does somebody have who wears a police uniform and shoots children and teenager as if they were flying ducks? What about this: lust to kill?

But in a society that rationalises and explains EVERYTHING - from alcoholism zu climate change - , this is no acceptable argument. The nutheads sit in the TV containers of "Big Brother" or showfight in the TV "Jungle Camp", but on the streets there are only rational, reasomnablel self-controlled people who always know exactly where to find the cheapest price for what they want to get.

And if the go wrong and fall nevertheless, then the automatism of cause study takes over immediately. Yes, if the art academy would have accepted Herrn Hitler, he wouldn'T have entered politics, WWII would not have taken place, and Wroclaw still would be named Breslau (Skybird: Broder is Jewish of Polish descent). And if the blond and blue-eyed Norwegian wouldn't have read Broder and Sarrazin, but Patrick Bahner and Roger Willemsen , he wouldn't have turned into a mass murderer.

I know I simplify, but I only trty to keep pace with the people in the opposite camp, who try with an unprecedented shamelessness to gain a moralising advantage in the debate, by trying to claim that Islam-critics from Ates to Sarrazin, from Broder to Wilders are responsible for the mass murder.

Breivik is a monster in human form, but stupid he is not. He prepared his deed extremely precisely. Part of that also is that "manifest", that beside me also quotes other Islam-critics like Richard Rorty, Immanuel Kant and Franz Kafka.

Breivik knew that he had to give rational reasons for his deed. And that he has not learned from Thilo Sarrazin or me, but he learned that from Mohammed Atta and Osama Bin Laden, the assassins from Madrid, London, Mumbai, Bali; from Carlos the Jackal and those "martyrs" who record a video before they leave to bomb themselves into paradise.

And whenever there was a terror strike or the plot had been spoiled in time, from the semi-professionals of the Hamburg terror cell to the dilletants of the Sauerland-group, immediately "experts" headed for the scene of the crime - means: the media - in order to ask the mother of all questions: "how desperate are people who do things like this?"

This question always has been the starting shot for the search for mitigating circumstances. In his first comment on 9/11, Günter Grass reasoned over the ammount of guilt "we" need to accept for "them" hating us so much.

After the assassination of Theo can Gogh, no commentator wanted to pass on makling the remark that the Dutch filmmaker had "offended" many Muslims, like Danish cartoonistr Kurt Westergaard also did, who had provoked his almost-executioner by painting those Muhammad cartoons.

Breivik noted all that. Very possible that he thought: "What they can do, I can do even better." And if he would have chosen as targets not a holiday camp of the socialist youth organisation, but an American embassy, or an Israeli group of athletes, then the differentiators and understand-it-alls already would be on the road again: "Terrible this attack, but..."

At Wikipedia there is a list of all suicide bombings in Iraq in 2010. It were dozens of attacks with hundreds of deaths. But I cannot remember a single report that asked the question what books the terrorists had read, and what literature had motivated them for their crimes. "Les Damnés de la Terre" by Frantz Fanon? Or the biography of Alfred Nobel? Because, different from the Norwegian murderer, they did not leave behind a manifest filled with lists and lists of literature references.

On his Twitter-.account, Breiivk left behind a quote by English philosopher J.S. Mill (1806-1073): One person with a belief is equal to the force of 100,000 who have only interests.

This quote also is by Mills: "It is better to be a human being dissatisfied than a pig satisfied." High time to remove the writings by John Stuart Mills on the book shelves and to replace them with the works by Richard David Precht: "Who Am I ***8211; And If So, How Many?"

---

Skybird: the last line: about Precht, here is basic info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_David_Precht

Originally planned as an introduction to philosophy for young people, his most successful work, the non-fiction Wer bin ich ***8211; und wenn ja, wie viele?(English: "Who Am I ***8211; And If So, How Many?"; release of the English version in April 2011.) was published in 2007. It is an introduction to philosophy with results of brain research, psychology, behaviour research and other sciences linked. The book regards itself as an introduction to the great question of being human and mankind, structured in Kant's classification: What can I know? What ought I to do? What may I hope? After a recommendation by Elke Heidenreich, the book ranked the first place in the Spiegel bestseller list. It was sold yet over 1,000,000 times and translated in 23 languages. According to non-fiction bestseller list of Spiegel, it was the most successful hardcover non-fiction of the year 2008 and ranked the third place in the bestseller of the decade.

---

The website "Turkishpress" is an extremely orthodox Sunni, ultranationalistic Turkish site known to be in favour of strong supression of women and servicing Turkish imperialistic propaganda. I would take everything they write with a truck-sized grain of salt.

---

All links on names added by me.

[Karle94]

I think it`s very unfortunate that the max punishment is 21-26 years in prison. Anders should at least rot in a prison cell for the rest of his life. Many here in Norway think he should be executed, but that`s against Norwegian law. Personally I think he should face the same punishment as Vidkun Quisling in may, 1945. Execution by firing squad.

[Biggles]

I think it`s very unfortunate that the max punishment is 21-26 years in prison. Anders should at least rot in a prison cell for the rest of his life. Many here in Norway think he should be executed, but that`s against Norwegian law. Personally I think he should face the same punishment as Vidkun Quisling in may, 1945. Execution by firing squad.

I am generally not very enthusiastic regarding the death penalty, yet I can't deny that the prospect of this particular murderer "getting away" grinds my gears...I've also thought back to the war, when Norway did some "exceptions" when it came to what the hardest punishment should be.

I can't imagine Norway making this exception today, but lord knows that this man does not deserve to live in the same world as the relatives to those he killed.

[Gerald]

Norway will not make exceptions for another penalty an what is written in the law ... however can someone "forget to lock the cell door" and that, makes the trip shorter for him.

[Flaxpants]

I find this view interesting.

When Muslim organizations shoot people, or blow something up, or carry out acts of sabotage, or call in threats, they're called terrorists. As was the case here.

Then it became clear he's a white, Norwegian, right-wing fundamentalist Christian, and then all of a sudden the act was no longer to be viewed a politically/religiously motivated terrorist act, but just a senseless killing spree by a madman.

Sorry, but this guy wrote a 1500 page book outlining his views. He planned the attack for eight years. If this attack was not a political terrorist act, then neither was 9/11 or Oklahoma or 7/7 or USS Cole.

Well in my opinion, anybody that thinks it's acceptable, even constructive, to commit mass murder, for whatever reason, is no more or less than a madman. If your political beliefs can lead you to do such things then you have a bolt loose. You may call him a political terrorist, and that's ok by me, I'll call him a madman.

[Feuer Frei!]

Update: 12:30AM, July 26,

ANDERS Behring Breivik told a Norwegian court that his bomb attack and island shooting rampage was aimed at saving Europe from a Muslim takeover, warning he was working with two other cells. Judge Kim Heger ordered the 32-year-old to be remanded in custody for eight weeks - the first four in solitary confinement - following a closed-door hearing that took place under tight security.

Police have revised the number of people - mostly teenagers - killed on the island down to 68, but stressed the toll could still increase.
Police also increased the number of confirmed deaths from the bomb attack to eight.
Breivik was yesterday charged with acts of terrorism.
He did not plead guilty, saying it was necessary to save Norway and Western Europe from a "Muslim takeover".
Breivik accused Norway's ruling Labour Party of a "mass import of Muslims" and said he aimed to hinder future recruitment.
Despite earlier claims that he had acted as a lone gunman, Breivik said he worked in an organisation with two more cells, the judge said.


There are now calls for Norway to reinstate the death penalty. The country's maximum prison sentence is 21 years, which can be extended if a prisoner is deemed a risk to the public, The Wall Street Journal reported.
Breivik's father says his son should have killed himself.
"I don't feel like his father," he is reported as saying.
"How could he just stand there and kill so many innocent people and just seem to think that what he did was OK?"
He told the Swedish newspaper Expressen: "He should have taken his own life, too. That's what he should have done."


SOURCE (http://www.news.com.au/world/explosion-at-office-of-norwegian-tabloid-newspaper-vg/story-e6frfkyi-1226101712907)

[Gorduz]

He will spend the rest of his life in prison(or equivalent) most likely. He will get 21 years + indefinite involuntary commitment. This means that after serving 21 years he will be kept locked inside until he is deemed fit to return to society (which could be never).

edit: Now it seems he might be prosecuted for crime against humanity(Trying to exterminate people based on their political opinions) which can give him 30 years in Norway.

[Gorduz]

Apparently people have been provoked by FOXs coverage of the event. They kept on calling it islamic terror long even after it became apparent that it might be other political forces behind it instead. And when finally it was clear that Anders Brehde Breivik had committed the act they stopped broadcasting about it.

http://translate.google.com/translate?client=ubuntu&hl=en&ie=UTF8&oe=UTF8&u=http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/article4183971.ece

[andritsos]

I presume you are German? It's not uncommon here, too. The Jusos (young socialdemocrats) here also have 14 years as minimum age, same with the Junge Union (young conservatives). Remember, it's also the age where you get the right to choose your own religion, so I see no problem with choosing a political direction at this age.



A Norwegian might answer this probably better than me, however I think you mean "Sicherheitsverwahrung" - I think the English term is a little misleading here. The Norway law has this also, called Forvaring: http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forvaring. The 21 year limit also seems to apply here, however wiki states that a judge might extend the prison term for 5 more years.

actually i am from italy
But i can say that the age of when a person is able to freely choose ( and confront ) a political belief varies from place to place , person to person etc

In the end it seem that victims weren't 90 or so,but 74. Even one is intollerable. was impressed by the thousands ( 100K+) people in the streets to express their compassion

[Jimbuna]

I think it`s very unfortunate that the max punishment is 21-26 years in prison. Anders should at least rot in a prison cell for the rest of his life. Many here in Norway think he should be executed, but that`s against Norwegian law. Personally I think he should face the same punishment as Vidkun Quisling in may, 1945. Execution by firing squad.

I should imagine a great many of your people feel that way.

[krashkart]

Apparently people have been provoked by FOXs coverage of the event. They kept on calling it islamic terror long even after it became apparent that it might be other political forces behind it instead. And when finally it was clear that Anders Brehde Breivik had committed the act they stopped broadcasting about it.

http://translate.google.com/translate?client=ubuntu&hl=en&ie=UTF8&oe=UTF8&u=http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/article4183971.ece


I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry. But, that pretty much sums up some of the media culture over here. Shock and horror, blame Islamic terrorists. Rinse and repeat. I doubt that anyone at Fox bothers to do their homework before going live with a story. :shifty:




Aw, what the heck.... :wah::rotfl2::har::har::cry:

All better now. :sunny:

[Safe-Keeper]

I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry. It gets worse. Glenn Beck just compared the youth politicians and their gathering to the Hitler Youth.

Because, you know, they're teens and politically active? Like the Hitler Youth? See?

Me neither:nope:.

[Hottentot]

That's not nearly as fun as the "Putin Jugend". Oh, how I envy the juggler of words, the magician of sentence, the wizard of wit who invented that immortal pearl of humor.

[Karle94]

I should imagine a great many of your people feel that way.

I think this article pretty much sums it up: http://translate.google.no/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=no&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=no&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vg.no%2Fnyheter%2Finnenriks%2Fa rtikkel.php%3Fartid%3D10080765&act=url

[Penguin]

Apparently people have been provoked by FOXs coverage of the event. They kept on calling it islamic terror long even after it became apparent that it might be other political forces behind it instead. And when finally it was clear that Anders Brehde Breivik had committed the act they stopped broadcasting about it.

http://translate.google.com/translate?client=ubuntu&hl=en&ie=UTF8&oe=UTF8&u=http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/article4183971.ece

I would never ever have the idea to use fox as a news source for anything that happens in Europe, hell, not even for anything that happens outside their studios.
In Germany, the major news sources did a crappy job, even when regarding that the news were confusing and contradicting. The German "24h news channels" preferred to show old documentations the whole day...:damn:
I relied on aftenposten and tv2 - they did a pretty good job, no hasty speculations and quick updates when stuff was reported wrong - which is unavoidable.


It gets worse. Glenn Beck just compared the youth politicians and their gathering to the Hitler Youth.

Because, you know, they're teens and politically active? Like the Hitler Youth? See?

Me neither:nope:.

I did not know that American teenagers are forbidden to participate in political activities, thanks to Beck's eternal wisdom we now know.
I would love to arrange a meeting of this dritthead with the relatives of the people who were on Utøya ...:nope:

[Betonov]

At least our media did something right. They waited until it was official. There was no talk of islamic terror.

[Tribesman]

It gets worse. Glenn Beck just compared the youth politicians and their gathering to the Hitler Youth.

Because, you know, they're teens and politically active? Like the Hitler Youth? See?

so he will have a big problem with GOPyoungguns and youth councildemocrats then.

[Hottentot]

Having read the news, I can't say I envy Breivik's lawyer, Lippestad. So he has to* defend a massmurderer and act as his public voice for the media and the people. Gee, what could be easier?

*)As I've understood it, Breivik himself requested Lippestad to defend him and he was obliged to do so. At least today, according to Finnish news, he has stated that he doesn't understand why Breivik chose him. Doesn't sound like a volunteer.

[Dan D]

It gets worse. Glenn Beck just compared the youth politicians and their gathering to the Hitler Youth.

Because, you know, they're teens and politically active? Like the Hitler Youth? See?

Me neither:nope:.


"Glenn Beck is Satan's mentally retarded little brother" (Stephen King). He,he.

[Jimbuna]

Having read the news, I can't say I envy Breivik's lawyer, Lippestad. So he has to* defend a massmurderer and act as his public voice for the media and the people. Gee, what could be easier?

*)As I've understood it, Breivik himself requested Lippestad to defend him and he was obliged to do so. At least today, according to Finnish news, he has stated that he doesn't understand why Breivik chose him. Doesn't sound like a volunteer.

So is an accused allow to pick their defence lawyer and does said defence lawyer not have the right to refuse?

[Biggles]

So is an accused allow to pick their defence lawyer and does said defence lawyer not have the right to refuse?

What I heard he agreed to take the case, but after spending some time thinking about it. He said something along the lines "It's a most unusual case, and he has already admitted his guilt, but it's an important democratic right for every man or woman to have a defense lawyer". True ofcourse, but I'm sure he secretly loath his defense subject to the bone.

Regarding why he chose him, I read that they "worked in the same building once". I am not sure what this meant.

[MH]

"Glenn Beck is Satan's mentally retarded little brother" (Stephen King). He,he.

I myself really despise GB very much and his political whining about Israel.
I think is is doing more damage than good in overall to Israel with messianic bull.
He is putting my country in wrong light.
Now what GB said about the camp is very nasty hideous thing but face the fact trying to shape youth political mindset since young age is indoctrination.
GB should know something about it.
I'm all for democratic education but no political parties thought shaping because i believe that this handicaps ability for flexible thought.
It turns problems into ideological issues when one side will not accept the others view just because of ideology.
(not claiming that im free of that:D)
I have no idea about Norway politics so that's all i can say
Judging by how peaceful and open minded country Norway is someone probably did something the right way there.
Maybe too well....
Possibly the nativity was too great in the same way thought in Israel once that no Jew would ever try to assassinate Israeli PM.


Really sorry for the great tragedy that happened to Norway.

[Safe-Keeper]

I did not know that American teenagers are forbidden to participate in political activities, thanks to Beck's eternal wisdom we now know.In the US, camps like these are only okay if they target much younger children and actually do indoctrinate. Such as, oh, the camp program Beck himself helps fund.

Yeah.

The hypocrisy is nauseating:nope:.

[Randomizer]

Sadly Glen Beck has a number of adherents on these Forums and no doubt somebody will come by to defend him.

Unfortunately there is little a society based on rule of law can do to protect itself completely from a murderer with an agenda, a weapon and or access to bomb-making material.

Politicizing the tragedy in Norway provides Breivik with a veneer of legitimacy that is an insult to his victims.

On the other hand, writing him off as a merely insane does nothing to honestly try and determine if there are warning signs that can identify politically motivated sociopaths before they can do violence. It's unlikely Breivik was born to murder so somewhere along the way outside influences shaped his worldview so that slaughtering innocents was an acceptable and correct course of action in his eyes. While not excusing his crime we should try to objectively understand the Why? even if the answer might be unpleasant for some.

It speaks volumes for the People of Norway that they seem to be giving Breivik all his rights and representations under Norwegian law although I am sure that virtually every policeman and probably most Norwegian's would gladly put a bullet in his head personally. In any case, I would think that there are no prospects of him ever rejoining society nor should there be.

Too bad Breivik will not be the last sociopathic, politically motivated mass-murderer; no country has immunity from the type but hopefully Norway will never again see something like this repeated. The scary thing is, somewhere out there another Breivik clone is plotting, scheming and arranging his dominoes for a new outrage.

[Dan D]

It gets worse. Glenn Beck just compared the youth politicians and their gathering to the Hitler Youth.

Because, you know, they're teens and politically active? Like the Hitler Youth? See?

Me neither:nope:.

In the US, camps like these are only okay if they target much younger children and actually do indoctrinate. Such as, oh, the camp program Beck himself helps fund.

Yeah.

The hypocrisy is nauseating:nope:.

Imo that is beside the point. Are you angry now about the US because of " Satan's mentally retarded little brother" Glenn Beck?

Who is this guy anyway?

[Platapus]

It gets worse. Glenn Beck just compared the youth politicians and their gathering to the Hitler Youth.

Because, you know, they're teens and politically active? Like the Hitler Youth? See?

Me neither:nope:.


I suppose the 9/12 organizations are OK with him.

[Jimbuna]

What I heard he agreed to take the case, but after spending some time thinking about it. He said something along the lines "It's a most unusual case, and he has already admitted his guilt, but it's an important democratic right for every man or woman to have a defense lawyer". True ofcourse, but I'm sure he secretly loath his defense subject to the bone.

Regarding why he chose him, I read that they "worked in the same building once". I am not sure what this meant.

I watched Sky News an hour ago and they are quoting his lawyer as saying "he is mad" :hmmm:

[Tribesman]

I watched Sky News an hour ago and they are quoting his lawyer as saying "he is mad"
Who, Glenn Beck or the murdering loony?

[Dan D]

Sadly Glen Beck has a number of adherents on these Forums and no doubt somebody will come by to defend him...


Accusations are flying around.

That Glenn Beck joke was a joke and it was Stephen King who created it.

Come on. It was just a joke.

[Jimbuna]

Who, Glenn Beck or the murdering loony?

Breivik

[Penguin]

Now what GB said about the camp is very nasty hideous thing but face the fact trying to shape youth political mindset since young age is indoctrination.
GB should know something about it.
I'm all for democratic education but no political parties thought shaping because i believe that this handicaps ability for flexible thought.
It turns problems into ideological issues when one side will not accept the others view just because of ideology.


It's not uncommon in Europe for kids to be in camps of organizations - at least it was in my generation. When I check out the European young socialists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecosy) where the party of the Norwegian kids are a member, you'll see that there are also two Israeli Youth Organizations associated.
I believe most organizations require the approval of the parents, so I see no difference if parents or an organization politicizes them, as long as those parties stand on the grounds of democracy.
However of course parents should teach kids to think independently, but we know that's wishful thinking.

I have many friends who were with the Falken (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_Youth_of_Germany_***8211;_Falcons) - they are somehow associated with Noar Oved from your country. None of them became a party member as an adult. They became very non-dogmatic persons - but still have their heart on the left side :O:
I was in many church camps, but became an agnostic ;).


The hypocrisy is nauseating:nope:.

Yep, somehow it is ok to him when they are sent to christian fundamentalist summer camps...

Who is this guy anyway?

In the 1960s a dark experiment took place in the USA: someone created a hybrid from Goebbels' sperm and female eggs from a tv-preacher. Good old Glenn was the result.

To be fair, at least he is consequent in showing compassion:

"I don't hate all of them. Probably about 10 of them. And when I see a 9-11 victim family on television, or whatever, I'm just like, "Oh shut up!" I'm so sick of them because they're always complaining. "

(source: http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/200509090003)

[Randomizer]

Accusations are flying around.

That Glenn Beck joke was a joke and it was Stephen King who created it.

Come on. It was just a joke.
Look at the time stamp, you posted AFTER me so what I wrote had nothing to do with your post. My only point is Glenn Beck has received supporting posts from a number of Forum members, as they are free to do. I have no intentions of accusing anybody of anything but you are free to use the Forum search engine should you wish user names and examples.

[Tribesman]

Breivik
Oh, thats understandable though.
I mean if you had put in all that effort and then had a court tell you to shut up your nonsense and had people laughing at your "manifesto" plus your dad saying you was an idiot who should have killed himself then you would be pretty mad wouldn't you. I bet he is absolutely livid.

[Dan D]

Look at the time stamp, you posted AFTER me so what I wrote had nothing to do with your post. My only point is Glenn Beck has received supporting posts from a number of Forum members, as they are free to do. I have no intentions of accusing anybody of anything but you are free to use the Forum search engine should you wish user names and examples.

"Thanks for the reminder. I will do".

[VirtualVikingX]

So is an accused allow to pick their defence lawyer and does said defence lawyer not have the right to refuse?

Any lawyer can refuse any client; this although has to be based on the ethical guidelines for lawyers in Norway.

[Jimbuna]

Oh, thats understandable though.
I mean if you had put in all that effort and then had a court tell you to shut up your nonsense and had people laughing at your "manifesto" plus your dad saying you was an idiot who should have killed himself then you would be pretty mad wouldn't you. I bet he is absolutely livid.

I should imagine/certainly hope so :yep:

Any lawyer can refuse any client; this although has to be based on the ethical guidelines for lawyers in Norway.

Then why is the lawyer prepared to carry on with the representation role...this is what I can't understand? :hmmm:

[VirtualVikingX]

Then why is the lawyer prepared to carry on with the representation role...this is what I can't understand? :hmmm:

1. Can anyone else but Lippestad answer that question?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/07/26/ap/europe/main20083524.shtml

2. Somebody has to do it.

3. The idiot may have picked up his name as Lippestad defended a right-wing murder about 10 years ago.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Then why is the lawyer prepared to carry on with the representation role...this is what I can't understand? :hmmm:
I think that Lippestad saw it better to do it himself than dump this "honour job" to someone else.

Just speculating based on what I would propably would do in this kind of situation. Luckily I'm not lawyer so I'm unlikely to get into this kind of mess...

[Feuer Frei!]

It is certainly nothing unusual for lawyers to defend, and i will use the term diplomatically, but a client such as this.
Especially if it is a big media trial.
Think of the exposure to the lawyer and the company!
Good for business.
And of course the money surely is not pushed aside.

[VirtualVikingX]

It is certainly nothing unusual for lawyers to defend, and i will use the term diplomatically, but a client such as this.
Especially if it is a big media trial.
Think of the exposure to the lawyer and the company!
Good for business.
And of course the money surely is not pushed aside.

But this is still a better downside than the alternatives.

[Penguin]

from the article Viking posted:

[The lawyer] confirmed he's a member of the Labor Party but doesn't know whether the suspect is aware.


This is what makes a professional lawyer: being able to put his own feelings toward the defendant aside. Even harder when he certainly hates the guts of his client.

Regarding the public Lippestad gains: this can also backfire on him, if people assume that he has sympathies for the murderer by the fact that he defends him. So this is a two-edged sword.

[Feuer Frei!]

This is what makes a professional lawyer: being able to put his own feelings toward the defendant aside. Even harder when he certainly hates the guts of his client.
Staying neutral in cases like this. Yea, makes you wonder wether these people are infact human, doesn't it?
Staying neutral on the outside, but inside burning up with hate and unspeakable feelings of ill wishes i would imagine.

Regarding the public Lippestad gains: this can also backfire on him, if people assume that he has sympathies for the murderer by the fact that he defends him. So this is a two-edged sword.Absolutely.
Although i think that in this day and age not a lot of that happens though. Or does it?
I don't recall any noteworthy trials where the public has persecuted and ridiculed a defense lawyer in public. I'm sure someone may be along and point out just the opposite.
From a respect point of view to the victims and the People of Norway, i will from now ON refrain in entering discussions on this topic as i wouldn't be showing respect to them. Just my personal opinion, that is all.

[VirtualVikingX]

Id like to add that all the victims and also murder victims families will have lawyers appointed to them, free of charge, as per usual in serious cases (rape, murder and so on).

[Jimbuna]

1. Can anyone else but Lippestad answer that question?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/07/26/ap/europe/main20083524.shtml

2. Somebody has to do it.

3. The idiot may have picked up his name as Lippestad defended a right-wing murder about 10 years ago.

That clears it up for me...thank you :up:

[Feuer Frei!]

Update:

A POLISH businessman faces up to eight years in prison after being charged for selling chemicals to Norwegian self-confessed killer Anders Behring Breivik, Norway's Dagbladet newspaper reported today. Lukasz Mikus, 32, was charged with public security offenses and faces between six months and eight years in prison, a Polish prosecutor told the newspaper.
Breivik named Mikus's online trading business, based in the southern city of Wroclaw, in his "manifesto" detailing his preparations for last Friday's attack, in which 76 people were killed in a bomb blast in Oslo and shooting at a youth camp on Utoya island.
Mikus told the newspaper that he had no idea that Breivik intended to use his chemicals in a bomb. He described the situation as "a nightmare."
Polish authorities denied reports Monday that it arrested Mikus. But the businessman told the newspaper that he was questioned through Sunday night and Monday after armed police raided his home.

SOURCE (http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/norwegian-killers-polish-chemical-supplier-faces-jail-report-says/story-e6frfku0-1226103039356)

[BossMark]

Leeds United pay their respects in Norway

http://www.leedsunited.com/news/20110727/united-pay-respects-in-norway_2247585_2403373

[AVGWarhawk]

Look were the accused is spending 21 years!! :o:o



Norway's unrepentant mass killer, Anders Behring Breivik, is now under arrest. And he should count himself lucky for -- if entirely undeserving of -- a penal system in that country that is among the cushiest in the world. There's no capital punishment, and the longest jail term allowed is 21 years (a caveat (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2018378/Norway-Massacre-Anders-Behring-Breivik-21-years-jail-most.html): if a prisoner is deemed to still be a threat, his sentence can be extended in five-year blocks indefinitely, though it's highly unlikely (http://www.globalmontreal.com/story.html?id=5154799), according to Norwegian officials). In Norway, rehabilitation is the guiding principle, not punishment -- a somewhat difficult notion to swallow given the gravity and callousness of his crimes.


Its a damn vacation resort!




http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/07/25/the_super_lux_super_max (http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/07/25/the_super_lux_super_max)

[Tribesman]

Look were the accused is spending 21 years!!

First impression is what a knee jerk piece.
Second impression says it all.
Look at the article ...Daily Mail....Daily Mail....Daily Mail.
But it does also have a global article which goes...according to the Daily Mail.
Given that parts of fruitcakes "manifesto" read like a Daily Mail article it is a bit rich.
BTW isn't that "super lux" prison the one which lots of criminals beg to get out of after they finally earned the chance to get sent to it.

[AVGWarhawk]

First impression is what a knee jerk piece.
Second impression says it all.
Look at the article ...Daily Mail....Daily Mail....Daily Mail.
But it does also have a global article which goes...according to the Daily Mail.
Given that parts of fruitcakes "manifesto" read like a Daily Mail article it is a bit rich.
BTW isn't that "super lux" prison the one which lots of criminals beg to get out of after they finally earned the chance to get sent to it.

I do not see where it says daily mail. :hmmm:

Let's try here:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/norway/8661444/Norway-killer-could-be-held-in-luxury-prison.html

[VirtualVikingX]

Look were the accused is spending 21 years!! :o:o




Its a damn vacation resort!




http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/07/25/the_super_lux_super_max (http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/07/25/the_super_lux_super_max)

I feel a need to get very vocal in my reply to this post. Ill wait a bit a post later when I'm calm.

(Main point: Do not push caveman style justice on us! However you can do what you want in your own country/state/republic)

[Jimbuna]

I feel a need to get very vocal in my reply to this post. Ill wait a bit a post later when I'm calm.

(Main point: Do not push caveman style justice on us! However you can do what you want in your own country/state/republic)

Best you ensure you are calm before you post then.

[Tribesman]

I do not see where it says daily mail
Can't you, it is on everything that isn't the Time photojournal or the globalmontreal(which is itself taken from the Mail)

Let's try here:

Wow, that article says the Norwegian system works, are you sure you wanted to link it as you were going big and bold complaining about Norways penal system.:03:

[AVGWarhawk]

Can't you, it is on everything that isn't the Time photojournal or the globalmontreal(which is itself taken from the Mail)


Wow, that article says the Norwegian system works, are you sure you wanted to link it as you were going big and bold complaining about Norways penal system.:03:

I was not complaining about the penal system. :O:

I don't get it Tribesman, close to 100 dead and just 21 years. :hmmm: Looks cushie to me.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/norway/8661444/Norway-killer-could-be-held-in-luxury-prison.html

[Tribesman]

I was not complaining about the penal system.
So you were not complaining about the penal system, just the sentencing under their penal code and the prisons in their penal system.
So apart for the jail terms and the jails what was it you liked about their penal system?:03:

don't get it Tribesman, close to 100 dead and just 21 years
No, 21 years and a chance of indefinate 5 yearly extensions if they go just for the murders, or 30 years and a chance of indefinate 5 yearly extensions if they go under crimes against humanity.
The law is the law, what part of that don't you get?

Looks cushie to me.

Is it?
Firstly what eligibilty would he have to eventually qualify for a place in that particular prison?
Secondly, as I mentioned earlier, if by some fluke he eventually qualifies to apply for a transfer to that prison and gets it, what is to say that he won't be one of those that beg to be thrown back in regular jail once he gets there?

BTW why link to the same article twice, I already read that it says the Norwegian penal system seems to work very well.

[August]

(Main point: Do not push caveman style justice on us! However you can do what you want in your own country/state/republic)

You criticize our justice system while demanding that we refrain from criticizing yours. Or is that too "caveman style" to point out?

[AVGWarhawk]

So you were not complaining about the penal system, just the sentencing under their penal code and the prisons in their penal system.
So apart for the jail terms and the jails what was it you liked about their penal system?:03:


No, 21 years and a chance of indefinate 5 yearly extensions if they go just for the murders, or 30 years and a chance of indefinate 5 yearly extensions if they go under crimes against humanity.
The law is the law, what part of that don't you get?


Is it?
Firstly what eligibilty would he have to eventually qualify for a place in that particular prison?
Secondly, as I mentioned earlier, if by some fluke he eventually qualifies to apply for a transfer to that prison and gets it, what is to say that he won't be one of those that beg to be thrown back in regular jail once he gets there?

BTW why link to the same article twice, I already read that it says the Norwegian penal system seems to work very well.

To many if's... a chance of indefinate



Now the Los Angeles Times reports (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-norway-defense-20110727,0,4153050.story), "The high death toll in the attacks has led some Norwegians to question the adequacy of the nation's penal system. Under current law, the maximum sentence for most crimes is 21 years. Norway has no death penalty or life imprisonment. Recently the legislature approved a 30-year sentence for crimes against humanity, and officials are considering charging Breivik under that statute."
I stand corrected. According to this report, Breivik may face a maximum sentence of 30 years -- although apparently Oslo authorities were unaware of the law earlier in the week. Now, it is possible that if convicted, Breivik would serve as much as 144 days per victim.
Or maybe that 21 years is the maximum, because Reuters reported, "The maximum sentence for terrorism in Norway will shortly be raised to 30 years under a decision by parliament. Breivik cannot be tried under that law which has not yet entered into force."


Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/djsaunders/detail?entry_id=94042#ixzz1TL3EAUMI

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/djsaunders/detail?entry_id=94042

[VirtualVikingX]

@jimbuna: Fair point.


You criticize our justice system while demanding that we refrain from criticizing yours. Or is that too "caveman style" to point out?

Fair enough, what gets me is that the criticism is based on us not being vengeful, rather than facts. One man should not change a system which works so well, and in all honesty, it really doesn't matter what the victims think. If the person commiting the crime is rehabilitated then that is what it is. Best to look towards the future, and not dwell on the past. However I don't believe that he will be let out after 21/30 years unless he is an empty and sick shell of a man.

Here is a page that I hope give the facts:

http://internationalbusiness.wikia.com/wiki/Norway's_Legal_System_Affects_the_Crime_Rate

If anything here seems wrong to you guys, please let me know. To my knowledge the numbers there are about right.

[AVGWarhawk]

Tribesmans sparked my interest into looking at the penal model of Norway. It is quite a good system that works. The US system pales in comparison. I wonder why that is? At any rate, this particular individual might have created circumstances that call for a change in the laws for Norway.

[Feuer Frei!]

and in all honesty, it really doesn't matter what the victims think.
I assume that that is in the context of this particular discussion. :hmmm:

[Tribesman]

To many if's...
There are never too many ifs.

"linky linky."would you like me to go through those articles? or can I leave it til I am sober?

Tribesmans sparked my interest into looking at the penal model of Norway.
For gods sake don't tell august:03:

There is only one question AVG.
It may seem like a simple question but it isn't.

Norway has a penal system that seems to out perform by a major factor those of other western countries.
Norway in this case has had a single sick bastard murdering a hell of a lot of people.
Should Norway change it s rather succesful penal system in light of one sick bastard who just did a very nasty crime?

though while I is at itI wonder why that is? At any rate, this particular individual might have created circumstances that call for a change in the laws for Norway.
Is not nearly al of thsi call for changing Norways laws coming from people outside Norway?

[VirtualVikingX]

I assume that that is in the context of this particular discussion. :hmmm:

One of the important basis for the Norwegian justice/penal system is approiate punishment.

The penal system acts appropriately if it works to reduce crime in society; it should be a tool to fight crime by attacking the evil at its roots. The essential question in the design of a criminal law is thus not what is a just punishment, but what was an appropriate punishment. So we may not have just punishments in Norway, but they are hopefully appropriate to fullfill their intended role. One man shouldnt change that.

To this Id also like to add the the idiot wanted a harder and more strict society. I think that we shouldnt give him what wanted.

I do of course acknowledge that long prison sentences also full fills the role of vindication to the victims, but the role is downplayed in Norway. I agree with this.
---
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14311157

NB: 30 years is only applicable if he can be sentenced under the "crimes against humanity" act (basicly war crimes). So that stands to be seen.

EDIT: I sent an email to the journalist, they will correct the article.

[Skybird]

Violence is not the answer (http://www.youtube.com/user/patcondell#p/a/u/0/MVbUzbLC5GE)

Leaves nothing to wish for in precision, determination and consistency.

[Penguin]

Here is a page that I hope give the facts:

http://internationalbusiness.wikia.com/wiki/Norway's_Legal_System_Affects_the_Crime_Rate

If anything here seems wrong to you guys, please let me know. To my knowledge the numbers there are about right.

Interesting statistics and the linked articles are also worth a read. Sadly nobody seems to have clicked on it yet :down:, otherwise somebody would have said that the link doesn't work. The forum software can't handle an apostrophe in a URL. , You have to manually correct it and change "***39 ;" with an apostrophe - or use this: http://tinyurl.com/3eyxyzw

As far as I can see the statistics mostly seem to be correct, a little old, as the data is from 1991 - however comparing it with the 2005 EU crime statics the numbers are about the same.
The car theft rate is better comparable per 1000 cars, not per inhabitants and the numbers on death row in the US are the total number, not per 100000 inhabitants - otherwise they would have more then 6 million people on death row...

As Norway is the richest country of all of the countries compared, the standard of living is also a factor which goes into crime stats, as well as the social system, but overall these numbers speak for a system based on rehab. I find it quite annoying when people claim that a system of rehabilitation instead revenge would somehow show sympathies for the criminal. It shows an interest in reducing crime.

What would also be very interesting and I miss in the link, would be a comparison of the recidivism rate.

[Tribesman]

What would also be very interesting and I miss in the link, would be a comparison of the recidivism rate.
Wasn't it in one of the ealier articles. 20% for Norway as compared to 50 -60% elsewhere.

[Penguin]

Wasn't it in one of the ealier articles. 20% for Norway as compared to 50 -60% elsewhere.

:hmmm: have to check through it.
Currently I am looking for the German figures, but it's hard to find official numbers in a country who thinks its tributary subjects do not need informations...:-?

a study about youth crime in the state of Baden-Würtenberg claims its 67% among German juveniles (47.5% among foreign adolescents - deportation not counted in)

An article about the canton of Zürich, Switzerland says the German recidivism rate among adults is about 40%, in Zürich 3%, 1/13th :o - on a funny side note the article also mentions the Germans complaining about Switzerland's prisons being too soft...:doh:

[VirtualVikingX]

Interesting statistics and the linked articles are also worth a read. Sadly nobody seems to have clicked on it yet :down:, otherwise somebody would have said that the link doesn't work. The forum software can't handle an apostrophe in a URL. , You have to manually correct it and change "***39 ;" with an apostrophe - or use this: http://tinyurl.com/3eyxyzw

As far as I can see the statistics mostly seem to be correct, a little old, as the data is from 1991 - however comparing it with the 2005 EU crime statics the numbers are about the same.
The car theft rate is better comparable per 1000 cars, not per inhabitants and the numbers on death row in the US are the total number, not per 100000 inhabitants - otherwise they would have more then 6 million people on death row...

As Norway is the richest country of all of the countries compared, the standard of living is also a factor which goes into crime stats, as well as the social system, but overall these numbers speak for a system based on rehab. I find it quite annoying when people claim that a system of rehabilitation instead revenge would somehow show sympathies for the criminal. It shows an interest in reducing crime.

What would also be very interesting and I miss in the link, would be a comparison of the recidivism rate.

Thanks, P. I know I started off on the wrong chord here, but Im Ill try hard not to make the same mistake again.

[Gorduz]

There are three reasons for prison:

1. Punishment which in Norway is the removal of freedom, not living crappy or living of bread and water. This is why the prisons look like low standard hotel rooms.

2. Rehabilitation, this is the most important thing in Norway I believe, do everything you can to prevent the prisoner from committing another crime. Most importantly make sure he still can work in a social setting and if necessary give him an education so that he can get a legal job.

3. Removing a threat from society. This is why we have such a long sentence as 21 year at all. And as mentioned several times this penalty can be renewed indefinitely for 5 years at the time if the subject is deemed unfit for release.

The ultimate goal of a prison and criminal justice system is to reduce crime, and I do not believe that can be achieved in Norway through increasing the penalties or worsening the standard of the prisons. I fail to see how this act of terror would have been prevented if he knew that he might get 50 years(or lifetime) for it instead of 21, Anders Breivik has already said he is prepared to spend the rest of his life in prison.

I do see that a death penalty could have had some effect, but i belive introducing that would have to many other negative consequences,

[VirtualVikingX]

Nice post, Gorduz!

An interesting article:

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/07/28/norway/index.html
-------------------
"Over the last decade, virtually every Terrorist plot aimed at the U.S. -- whether successful or failed -- has provoked greater security and surveillance measures. Within a matter of mere weeks, the 9/11 attacks infamously spawned a vast new surveillance statute (the Patriot Act), a secretly implemented warrantless eavesdropping program in violation of the law, an explosion of domestic surveillance contracts, a vastly fortified secrecy regime, and endless wars in multiple countries."
-------------------