Top Nazi Rudolf Hess exhumed from 'pilgrimage' grave

[Gerald]

The grave containing the remains of Hitler's deputy Rudolf Hess has been destroyed to end it being used as a pilgrimage site by neo-Nazis.

Hess's bones were exhumed at the graveyard in the small town of Wunsiedel, southern Germany, in the early hours of Wednesday morning.

The remains will be cremated and then scattered at sea.

Hess was captured in 1941 and sentenced to life in prison. He killed himself in jail in 1987 at the age of 93.

As he requested in his will, he was buried in the Bavarian town of Wunsiedel, where his family had a holiday home and where his parents were already interred.
http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/4035/541765250124968451.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/269/541765250124968451.jpg/)
Neo-Nazis attempted to hold rallies at the grave on the anniversary of Hess's death.

The local Lutheran church which supervises the cemetery gave its permission for the burial at the time, ruling that the wishes of the deceased could not be ignored, the Suddeutsche Zeitung reports.

But they and local people have since become concerned by the number of far-right groups visiting the grave. Each year on the anniversary of his death, neo-Nazis have attempted to staged a march to the cemetery, saluting the grave, with its epitaph "I dared" and laying floral wreaths.

A 2005 court order banning such gatherings had little effect so the church decided to terminate the family's lease on the grave as of October 2011.

A granddaughter of Hess objected to the decision, the paper reports. She filed a lawsuit in an attempt to prevent it going ahead, but was eventually persuaded by the parish council to drop the case and allow the exhumation to go ahead.

Hess was one of Hitler's closest aides, but in 1941 he parachuted into Scotland in an apparently authorised solo peace mission, which was later denounced by the fuhrer.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14232768


Note: 21 July 2011 Last updated at 11:00 GMT

[Growler]

I never understood the way the Western Allies treated Hess.

He lived out his years in jail, while after only a few years, Jochen Peiper was a free man; Peiper, and many others far more deserving of long sentences than Hess.

[Penguin]

I never understood the way the Western Allies treated Hess.

He lived out his years in jail, while after only a few years, Jochen Peiper was a free man; Peiper, and many others far more deserving of long sentences than Hess.

Well there were some people who think he deserved the death penalty... :know:

[Growler]

Well there were some people who think he deserved the death penalty... :know:

That's kind of my point - a whole lot of convicted Nazis basically skated free or had their sentences commuted/overturned, but not Hess, and he was out of the war far earlier than guys like Goering (who offed himself in custody, I know).

[TLAM Strike]

I never understood the way the Western Allies treated Hess.
Hess did transcribe and edit Mein Kampf and was Hitler's #2, he was definitely responsible for helping plan a war of aggression and conspiracy to commit war crimes. :yep:

[conspiracy_theory]

I saw this story on the bbc and noticed for once there was not a comment box at the bottom,strange...hmmm.I also noticed an error in the story,from what i had previously read anyway.I thought Rudolf Hess parachuted into Britain to beg us to stop the war with Germany,and therefore was not "captured" as the bbc story read.Also i wonder now if all the communist leaders graves will also be exhumed...of course we already know the answer to that.

Why is it that the bbc and other media are so afraid to let people openly talk about the Nazi's.Why have they removed the comment box from that page?Of course someone could reply,its because of all the abuse and hatred that would come from pro Nazi's commenting on the story,but we all know that both left and right wing people are capable of such bile.

To me this is just another great example of the huge anti Nazi propaganda machine at work.We are truly not free in the west.

[Growler]

Hess did transcribe and edit Mein Kampf and was Hitler's #2, he was definitely responsible for helping plan a war of aggression and conspiracy to commit war crimes. :yep:

And was out of the picture in 41, where the SS had three more years to carry on, with the consequences far out of proportion to Hess' sentence.

I'm not calling into queston Hess's guilt. Rather, I'm curious as to the disparity in sentencing.

[conspiracy_theory]

Seriously Strike,"a war of aggression and conspiracy"...lol,sorry but are you 8?Do you think every other nation that has gone to war did it with flowers and love,and never used propaganda.:har:


Hess did transcribe and edit Mein Kampf and was Hitler's #2, he was definitely responsible for helping plan a war of aggression and conspiracy to commit war crimes. :yep:

[Growler]

We are truly not free in the west.

Free enough to discuss it here.

[Gerald]

I saw this story on the bbc and noticed for once there was not a comment box at the bottom,strange...hmmm.I also noticed an error in the story,from what i had previously read anyway.I thought Rudolf Hess parachuted into Britain to beg us to stop the war with Germany,and therefore was not "captured" as the bbc story read.Also i wonder now if all the communist leaders graves will also be exhumed...of course we already know the answer to that.

Why is it that the bbc and other media are so afraid to let people openly talk about the Nazi's.Why have they removed the comment box from that page?Of course someone could reply,its because of all the abuse and hatred that would come from pro Nazi's commenting on the story,but we all know that both left and right wing people are capable of such bile.

To me this is just another great example of the huge anti Nazi propaganda machine at work.We are truly not free in the west. From the story,"Hess was one of Hitler's closest aides, but in 1941 he parachuted into Scotland in an apparently unauthorised solo peace mission, which was denounced by the fuhrer.

He was imprisoned by the British for the duration of the war, and jailed for life at the Nuremberg trials in 1946. He spent 40 years in Spandau Prison in Berlin.

He was the last remaining inmate at the prison when he was found hanged there in August 1987." And welcome to SubSim, conspiracy theory :salute:

[TLAM Strike]

Seriously Strike,"a war of aggression and conspiracy"...lol,sorry but are you 8?Do you think every other nation that has gone to war did it with flowers and love,and never used propaganda.:har:
No sometimes they go to war because they or their allies are invaded by other powers who want to exterminate part of the population and enslave the rest. Hess transcribed the book saying that Germany was going to do just that if they picked his buddy Hitler to lead it. :roll:

[conspiracy_theory]

I think you maybe a little misled my friend. Can you show me where in mein kampf where it mentions exterminating anybody.

After the war, in all the records the nazi's kept, they only found one peice of paper that mentioned the extermination of jews, written in poor German.

If you watch the nuremburg trials, you will see Hermann Goring looking totally bemused as he is trying to tell the prosecution that he and Hitler knew nothing about an extermination of the jews. But who really knows eh.

Btw, there are a few alternative documentaries on the so called "death camps",worth a watch if , like me, you are into all this conspiracy stuff.One of the interesting things they show is how shallow the water table is at auswitch,so so much for the stories of thousands of people being burnt is massive pits...of water??? lol, plus how much heat would it take to burn thousands of bodies in an open pit?

But the most eye opening vid you will ever see is a video with David Irving,who was untill he wrote a book called Hitlers war (which he researched for 10 years) ,one of the worlds most trusted and celebrated historians. The problem with his book was, there was nothing on the holocaust in it. He told his jewish publishers, it was because he found no evidence of one, and after refusing to make it up as they told him to do, they pulled his book.

But if you are into hating nazi's, he does mention a lot of sick things they did actually do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Aq485-WwF4





No sometimes they go to war because they or their allies are invaded by other powers who want to exterminate part of the population and enslave the rest. Hess transcribed the book saying that Germany was going to do just that if they picked his buddy Hitler to lead it. :roll:

[Oberon]

Oh, this thread is going to go well.

I predict a brigging. :yep:

[Growler]

You're suggesting the Holocaust is a fiction... why? To what end would the Western Allies perpetuation of such a fiction serve?

Oh, this thread is going to go well.

I predict a brigging. :yep:

Hmm.

[conspiracy_theory]

Well you can read a book called the holocaust industry, actually written by a jew, apart from that, i'd say that watch that vid i sent you and all will become clear. I mean you tell me why the bbc censored the comments on this story. Why nazi symbols are not even allowed in some computer games, yet u can buy a communist t-shirt on any high street. There are greater powers at work here than me and you mate.And why is it illegal in Europe to publicly deny or question the holocaust? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial I think this shows they have something to hide.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BaJCRXsgt4 a vid on the guy who wrote the holocaust industry,but watch the other vid...amazing stuff.


You're suggesting the Holocaust is a fiction... why? To what end would the Western Allies perpetuation of such a fiction serve?



Hmm.

[Gerald]

@conspiracy theory! When it comes to the Nuremberg trials, as were all the defendants, well unconcerned about what was read by the prosecutor, and as evidence of what was hard evidence against different people and not a pleasant story for their families who have suffered and are suffering over what was a fact, after visiting soon fifty-six years later ... you can make your own interpretation, just like everyone else, but it is impossible to change the truth, for a further insight into Mein Kampf,buy it from Amazon.com

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0395078016/freethinkers

[Lord Justice]

I feel no ambition for a share of it, I desire some hold fourth sensibly! :yep: On a subject matter as this, the volatile become easy prey. :shifty:

[Growler]

Well you can read a book called the holocaust industry, actually written by a jew, apart from that, i'd say that watch that vid i sent you and all will become clear. I mean you tell me why the bbc censored the comments on this story. Why nazi symbols are not even allowed in some computer games, yet u can buy a communist t-shirt on any high street. There are greater powers at work here than me and you mate.

As I am not able to view videos at this time, and am not in a position to purchase a book and await its arrival in order to continue this discussion, I beg your indulgence and say again: To what end would the Western Allies perpetuation of a fictional Holocaust serve?

I'm not interested in BBC censoring comments, or the legality of the swastika vs. communist t-shirts. Those are diversions from the issue at hand. I want to know what the Western Allies gain/have gained through the alleged Holocaust fiction.

[MH]

Well you can read a book called the holocaust industry, actually written by a jew, apart from that, i'd say that watch that vid i sent you and all will become clear. I mean you tell me why the bbc censored the comments on this story. Why nazi symbols are not even allowed in some computer games, yet u can buy a communist t-shirt on any high street. There are greater powers at work here than me and you mate.And why is it illegal in Europe to publicly deny or question the holocaust? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial I think this shows they have something to hide.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BaJCRXsgt4 a vid on the guy who wrote the holocaust industry,but watch the other vid...amazing stuff.


Good stuff.

[Raptor1]

I think you maybe a little misled my friend. Can you show me where in mein kampf where it mentions exterminating anybody.

Whether something is or isn't explicitly written in Mein Kampf hardly matters, does it? Mein Kampf isn't the complete guide to Nazi atrocities, it's just the ideological basis of it.


After the war, in all the records the nazi's kept, they only found one peice of paper that mentioned the extermination of jews, written in poor German.

Oh? Do you have a source for that? I've seen and heard about quite a few documents that detail it.


Btw, there are a few alternative documentaries on the so called "death camps",worth a watch if , like me, you are into all this conspiracy stuff.One of the interesting things they show is how shallow the water table is at auswitch,so so much for the stories of thousands of people being burnt is massive pits...of water??? lol, plus how much heat would it take to burn thousands of bodies in an open pit?

Indeed, it's a good thing the Nazis had built extensive crematoriums there to do the job then, isn't it?


But the most eye opening vid you will ever see is a video with David Irving,who was untill he wrote a book called Hitlers war (which he researched for 10 years) ,one of the worlds most trusted and celebrated historians. The problem with his book was, there was nothing on the holocaust in it. He told his jewish publishers, it was because he found no evidence of one, and after refusing to make it up as they told him to do, they pulled his book.

But if you are into hating nazi's, he does mention a lot of sick things they did actually do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Aq485-WwF4

Trusted and celebrated historians? Let's see...


Irving's reputation as an historian was widely discredited after he brought an unsuccessful libel case against the American historian Deborah Lipstadt and Penguin Books. The court found that Irving was an active Holocaust denier, antisemite, and racist, who "associates with right-wing extremists who promote neo-Nazism," and that he had "for his own ideological reasons persistently and deliberately misrepresented and manipulated historical evidence."

But that's all part of the conspiracy, yes?

[conspiracy_theory]

How do i know lol,i just like conspiracies.

It could be said that it is because the poeple that run our western countries,the same people that made Britain go to war over Poland???, and then let Russia have it for free, have had something to gain from it, as the book the holocaust industry says,the U.S.A alone gives Israel the equivilent of $40,000 per Israely every year Beacause of the holocaust, god knows why.

Also, with the capitalists on one side and the communists on the other, they do not want a new power like national socialism getting in their way for world domination. So they make it very unattractive, even illegal.

The russians admitted after the fall of the berlin wall, that they built the smoke stacks at Auschwitz after the war, and if you watch the alternative tour of Auschwitz on google, you can see that they are not even connected to anything.


As I am not able to view videos at this time, and am not in a position to purchase a book and await its arrival in order to continue this discussion, I beg your indulgence and say again: To what end would the Western Allies perpetuation of a fictional Holocaust serve?

I'm not interested in BBC censoring comments, or the legality of the swastika vs. communist t-shirts. Those are diversions from the issue at hand. I want to know what the Western Allies gain/have gained through the alleged Holocaust fiction.

[MH]

The russians admitted after the fall of the berlin wall, that they built the smoke stacks at Auschwitz after the war, and if you watch the alternative tour of Auschwitz on google, you can see that they are not even connected to anything.

So what was really going on there-that is in Auschwitz?

[Krauter]

The russians admitted after the fall of the berlin wall, that they built the smoke stacks at Auschwitz after the war, and if you watch the alternative tour of Auschwitz on google, you can see that they are not even connected to anything.

Auschwitz wasn't closed after the war....

The Communists and Stalin used the German concentration and death camps as their own after the war to imprison German POWs and undesirables.

[KaptCosper]

I do believe there was a holocaust, but what i really want to know.. is why Hess killed himself at 93.. I would have just finished the sentence

[conspiracy_theory]

[quote] Oh? Do you have a source for that? I've seen and heard about quite a few documents that detail it.

You've actually seen them?

[quote]Indeed, it's a good thing the Nazis had built extensive crematoriums there to do the job then, isn't it?

i've just googled them,a regualr size crematorium
,in which they burnt 1000's per day? It takes hours for one body to burn.


If you google death camps,you will see 1000's of jewish websites telling us all about the holocaust.But why it is illegal to deny or question it publicly??? I think that says it all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial

[Feuer Frei!]

There is indeed something to be said about the reasons why we are not allowed to question what happened in the past.
It is a crime to question anything that was the Holocaust.
Or so the law says.
I say, what good does that do to the plea of freedom of speech and the freedom to always search for truth and justice?
Why is it a crime to seek these things?
I can understand it being a crime to deny something that occurred or to use parts of history for advocating violence and attrocities in today's society.
Using historie's tools of worship and ideologies of crimes and acts against humanity.
However, is this the only reason why free man cannot question the past?
What does that mean to me? It means that i am not able to think for myself. I am given information about an occurrance in the past and i am told that if i do not believe it and that if i openly question this event that i am acting against the law.
Am i alluding or alleging conspiracy here?
No, but i think it is inherently wrong for man to not be able to seek questions to answers or to wonder and research parts of history without upsetting certain parts of society.

[Krauter]

Oh? Do you have a source for that? I've seen and heard about quite a few documents that detail it.

You've actually seen them?

Indeed, it's a good thing the Nazis had built extensive crematoriums there to do the job then, isn't it?

i've just googled them,a regualr size crematorium
,in which the burnt 1000's per day? It takes hours for one body to burn.


If you google death camps,you will see 1000's of jewish websites telling us all about the holocaust.But why it is illegal deny or question it publicly??? I think that says it all.

Source for what? The crematoriums? Well aside from pictures like this:

http://isurvived.org/Pictures_iSurvived-4/crematorium-mini.GIF
and
http://www.ushmm.org/lcmedia/photo/lc/image/03/0315.jpg

Also, who else would write about the Holocaust? The Russians, Americans, French? Christians? They weren't in death camps. The Jews was. So isn't it logical for them to write about it? Or does Logic escape you?



For more about what this guy thinks was a freaking tea party :shifty: : http://isurvived.org/Holocaust-definition.html

Edit:


What does that mean to me? It means that i am not able to think for myself. I am given information about an occurrance in the past and i am told that if i do not believe it and that if i openly question this event that i am acting against the law.
Am i alluding or alleging conspiracy here?
No, but i think it is inherently wrong for man to not be able to seek questions to answers or to wonder and research parts of history without upsetting certain parts of society.

I'm not for censoring the information, but when you blatantly disregard the facts and testimonials of people who were both there, both on the receiving and giving end, then that's just stupid. It's blatantly spitting in the face of those who survived and those who died.

[Growler]

How do i know lol,i just like conspiracies.

It could be said that it is because the poeple that run our western countries,the same people that made Britain go to war over Poland???, and then let Russia have it for free, have had something to gain from it, as the book the holocaust industry says,the U.S.A alone gives Israel the equivilent of $40,000 per Israely every year Beacause of the holocaust, god knows why.

Also, with the capitalists on one side and the communists on the other, they do not want a new power like national socialism getting in their way for world domination. So they make it very unattractive, even illegal.

The russians admitted after the fall of the berlin wall, that they built the smoke stacks at Auschwitz after the war, and if you watch the alternative tour of Auschwitz on google, you can see that they are not even connected to anything.


So if I'm understanding you correctly, it's the Western Allies play for global domination that created the myth of the Holocaust; a myth further promulgated by the support of the Israelis to the tune of ~$40K/annum/person. So, basically, the Holocaust isn't a Western Allies' construction, it is a construction of the Jews, perpetuated through the Western Allies, with the goal of global domination by the Jews. Am understanding correctly?

I don't understand how a pro-Jewish global conspiracy would have Britain go to war over Poland - and Polish Jews - only to cede that nation to Soviet control, whereupon profession of any faith - especially Jewish faith - was as likely to lead to death as it was in Nazi Germany.

[MH]

"The more we do to you, the less you seem to believe we are doing it."
Mengele


...........

[conspiracy_theory]

Your post illustrates my point,they had a normal ammount of crematoria,no other way of getting rid of the millions they suggest.

And my point on the jewish websites was, some people say, the reason we are not allowed by law (now think about that statement) to deny or question the holocaust is that it is too upsetting for jews,when its all they bloody talk about.

Source for what? The crematoriums? Well aside from pictures like this:

http://isurvived.org/Pictures_iSurvived-4/crematorium-mini.GIF
and
http://www.ushmm.org/lcmedia/photo/lc/image/03/0315.jpg

Also, who else would write about the Holocaust? The Russians, Americans, French? Christians? They weren't in death camps. The Jews was. So isn't it logical for them to write about it? Or does Logic escape you?



For more about what this guy thinks was a freaking tea party :shifty: : http://isurvived.org/Holocaust-definition.html

[Krauter]

Your post illustrates my point,they had a normal ammount of crematoria,no other way of getting rid of the millions they suggest.


What? Can you please expand on your posts rather then repeating yourself?

[Hottentot]

I think you maybe a little misled my friend. Can you show me where in mein kampf where it mentions exterminating anybody.

Chapter 5.

Marxism, whose final objective was and is and will continue to be the destruction of all non-Jewish national States, had to witness in those days of July 1914 how the German working classes, which it had been inveigling, were aroused by the national spirit and rapidly ranged themselves on the side of the Fatherland. Within a few days the deceptive smoke-screen of that infamous national betrayal had vanished into thin air and the Jewish bosses suddenly found themselves alone and deserted. It was as if not a vestige had been left of that folly and madness with which the masses of the German people had been inoculated for sixty years. That was indeed an evil day for the betrayers of German Labour. The moment, however, that the leaders realized the danger which threatened them they pulled the magic cap of deceit over their ears and, without being identified, played the part of mimes in the national reawakening.

The time seemed to have arrived for proceeding against the whole Jewish gang of public pests. Then it was that action should have been taken regardless of any consequent whining or protestation. At one stroke, in the August of 1914, all the empty nonsense about international solidarity was knocked out of the heads of the German working classes. A few weeks later, instead of this stupid talk sounding in their ears, they heard the noise of American-manufactured shrapnel bursting above the heads of the marching columns, as a symbol of international comradeship. Now that the German worker had rediscovered the road to nationhood, it ought to have been the duty of any Government which had the care of the people in its keeping, to take this opportunity of mercilessly rooting out everything that was opposed to the national spirit. While the flower of the nation's manhood was dying at the front, there was time enough at home at least to exterminate this vermin. But, instead of doing so, His Majesty the Kaiser held out his hand to these hoary criminals, thus assuring them his protection and allowing them to regain their mental composure. And so the viper could begin his work again. This time, however, more carefully than before, but still more destructively. While honest people dreamt of reconciliation these perjured criminals were making preparations for a revolution.

[...]

But what should have been done then? Throw the ringleaders into gaol, prosecute them and rid the nation of them? Uncompromising military measures should have been adopted to root out the evil. Parties should have been abolished and the Reichstag brought to its senses at the point of the bayonet, if necessary. It would have been still better if the Reichstag had been dissolved immediately. Just as the Republic to-day dissolves the parties when it wants to, so in those days there was even more justification for applying that measure, seeing that the very existence of the nation was at stake. Of course this suggestion would give rise to the question: Is it possible to eradicate ideas by force of arms?

[...]

The application of force alone, without moral support based on a spiritual concept, can never bring about the destruction of an idea or arrest the propagation of it, unless one is ready and able ruthlessly to exterminate the last upholders of that idea even to a man, and also wipe out any tradition which it may tend to leave behind.

[...]

When sheer force is used to combat the spread of a doctrine, then that force must be employed systematically and persistently. This means that the chances of success in the suppression of a doctrine lie only in the persistent and uniform application of the methods chosen. The moment hesitation is shown, and periods of tolerance alternate with the application of force, the doctrine against which these measures are directed will not only recover strength but every successive persecution will bring to its support new adherents who have been shocked by the oppressive methods employed. The old adherents will become more embittered and their allegiance will thereby be strengthened. Therefore when force is employed success is dependent on the consistent manner in which it is used.[...]

[conspiracy_theory]

So if I'm understanding you correctly, it's the Western Allies play for global domination that created the myth of the Holocaust; a myth further promulgated by the support of the Israelis to the tune of ~$40K/annum/person. So, basically, the Holocaust isn't a Western Allies' construction, it is a construction of the Jews, perpetuated through the Western Allies, with the goal of global domination by the Jews. Am understanding correctly?

yes 100%




I don't understand how a pro-Jewish global conspiracy would have Britain go to war over Poland - and Polish Jews - only to cede that nation to Soviet control, whereupon profession of any faith - especially Jewish faith - was as likely to lead to death as it was in Nazi Germany.

Well you need to watch that irving vid.He has proof of all this btw letter from rich and powerfull jews to churchill, he even has a challenge for a $1000 dollars and his reputation of course that no one can prove other wise.

[Raptor1]

i've just googled them,a regualr size crematorium
,in which they burnt 1000's per day? It takes hours for one body to burn.

Five, actually, Birkenau (The main site) had four of them. And no, they apparently weren't enough as, like you said, they had to resort to burning bodies in open air pits.

[Lord Justice]

the same people that made Britain go to war over Poland???, and then let as the book the holocaust industry says,the U.S.A alone gives Israel the equivilent of $40,000 per

You set such an example you are much to be applauded. I ought to mention, by this, I mean the execution of the way you have chanced to deliver Britain and the USA. I am affraid I shall not be able to flatter you, I cannot conceive it my duty to be in the least influenced to make a post regarding your fancy. However I will advise, your trifles are starting to look ridiculous. Whatever your opinions on such a sensitive subject, you will not draw me, I find your propensity for action is very apt to lead you into verbal engagements. Before I blush, I beg you be done with, I would be much obliged. Good day.

[Krauter]

Well you need to watch that irving vid.He has proof of all this btw letter from rich and powerfull jews to churchill, he even has a challenge for a $1000 dollars and his reputation of course that no one can prove other wise.

Just watched the video and all I'm hearing is a bunch of bull**** that has so many holes in the story it might as well be swiss cheese

Edit: @ Lord Justice.. can we get that in plain English please... :shifty:

[Growler]

Well you need to watch that irving vid.He has proof of all this btw, he even has a challenge for a $1000 dollars and his reputation of course that no one can prove other wise.

As I said earlier, I'm not in a position wherein I can view videos, so I'll need you to clarify that point for me: I don't understand how a pro-Jewish global conspiracy would have Britain go to war over Poland - and Polish Jews - only to cede that nation to Soviet control, whereupon profession of any faith - especially Jewish faith - was as likely to lead to death as it was in Nazi Germany, even as it was alleged that Marxism was creating the environment for Jews to thrive and take over control.

[Raptor1]

Ah, missed this:


You've actually seen them?

Yes, I have. If you're asking whether I've seen the original documents in person, rather than photographs or copies of them, then I haven't, as far as I recall.

[Krauter]

As I said earlier, I'm not in a position wherein I can view videos, so I'll need you to clarify that point for me: I don't understand how a pro-Jewish global conspiracy would have Britain go to war over Poland - and Polish Jews - only to cede that nation to Soviet control, whereupon profession of any faith - especially Jewish faith - was as likely to lead to death as it was in Nazi Germany, even as it was alleged that Marxism was creating the environment for Jews to thrive and take over control.

Also, why would Jews, which in the video he states were then the richest people in Germany at the time want communism? That would result in them losing their power and, as history has show us, be persecuted as a religious sect.

[Lord Justice]

Edit: @ Lord Justice.. can we get that in plain English please... :shifty:I am stating that I will not be drawn into posting this topic, I find the member is pulling at strings for gratification. I am asking him to drop it in a kind manner before this all gets heated. Good day sir.

[Krauter]

Thanks :up:

[conspiracy_theory]

As I said earlier, I'm not in a position wherein I can view videos, so I'll need you to clarify that point for me: I don't understand how a pro-Jewish global conspiracy would have Britain go to war over Poland - and Polish Jews - only to cede that nation to Soviet control, whereupon profession of any faith - especially Jewish faith - was as likely to lead to death as it was in Nazi Germany, even as it was alleged that Marxism was creating the environment for Jews to thrive and take over control.

Well the fact that the rothschilds funded the birth of communism (and at first funded the nazi's btw), and before and after ww2 the secret police in eastern europe where mainly jewish,so they where very well looked after by the russians.In Estonia and Lithuania, the germans found the locals taking care of the jews already,and after the war the anti communist hungarian revolution started out as an anti jewish revolution.

btw, you could have watched that vid by now, lol.

[Lord Justice]

Thanks :up:No need sir, I am sensible enough to realise. Enjoy. :salute:

[Hottentot]

btw, you could have watched that vid by now, lol.

Does the video explain, why Mein Kampf speaks of exterminating people?

[Krauter]

btw, you could have watched that vid by now, lol.

Are you daft?

As I said earlier, I'm not in a position wherein I can view videos,

As I said earlier, I'm not in a position wherein I can view videos,

As I said earlier, I'm not in a position wherein I can view videos,
Great way to make a start here..

[Growler]

Well the fact that the rothschilds funded the birth of communism (and at first funded the nazi's btw), and before and after ww2 the secret police in eastern europe where mainly jewish,so they where very well looked after by the russians.In Estonia and Lithuania, the germans found the locals taking care of the jews already,and after the war the anti communist hungarian revolution started out as an anti jewish revolution. Anti-semitism was rife in Europe in the first half of the 20th Century; the Germans had no exclusivity to it until the 40's. So the KGB, MVD, Stasi... all Jews? The Hungarian Revolt was put down by the Red Army because the Red Army was Jewish? I just don't see how anyone can reach that conclusion. I'd like to know your rationale behind that statement.

btw, you could have watched that vid by now, lol. There's a reason why I can't watch videos at the moment that goes beyond simply choosing not to.

[Raptor1]

Well the fact that the rothschilds funded the birth of communism (and at first funded the nazi's btw), and before and after ww2 the secret police in eastern europe where mainly jewish,so they where very well looked after by the russians.In Estonia and Lithuania, the germans found the locals taking care of the jews already,and after the war the anti communist hungarian revolution started out as an anti jewish revolution.

btw, you could have watched that vid by now, lol.

Well, this I haven't heard about. Sources?

[August]

Seriously Strike,"a war of aggression and conspiracy"...lol,sorry but are you 8?Do you think every other nation that has gone to war did it with flowers and love,and never used propaganda.:har:

Seriously, where does a noob like yourself get off insulting long term members?
If anyone is acting like they're 8 it's you.

[conspiracy_theory]

Does the video explain, why Mein Kampf speaks of exterminating people?

that would be impossible, because it doesn't.

[Lord Justice]

Are you daft?






Great way to make a start here.. Wer I to conform to such, it could give him pleasure.

[Krauter]

Where is Steve? If anyone can cram a trolls terrible argument where the sun doesn't shine it's him.

@ Lord Justice: Aye, but it gives me an abundance of pleasure to watch them squirm when they actually need to defend their arguments rather then redirecting the argument away.

[Hottentot]

Oh. Well, I thought I just read it from the book itself and provided direct quotes. But OK, if you say so, I guess it must be so then. Silly me. Can you, oh master of masters, please tell me then, what it just said?

[Krauter]

Oh. Well, I thought I just read it from the book itself and provided direct quotes. But OK, if you say so, I guess it must be so then. Silly me. Can you, oh master of masters, please tell me then, what it just said?

Silly Hottentot, readings for kids!

[HunterICX]

Well I could come with a witty line wondering why people are responding to his bull, but then I remember something...this is the GT :damn:

HunterICX

[Hottentot]

Silly Hottentot, readings for kids!

Actually I'm starting to wonder why I'm here. It's not like this thread was about emotionally approaching historically sensitive subjects in black & white "you evil me good" mentality and no one has even said Stalin or Lenin yet. Bleh, did you have to drop me back to reality?

[Lord Justice]

:salute: I wish you all well, further posts serves to test and put stain on your respected characters, I readily observe advantage noob. :03:

[Ducimus]

Seriously, where does a noob like yourself get off insulting long term members?
If anyone is acting like they're 8 it's you.

I note that this individual registered today, just to respond to this thread, and thus far, has not posted anywhere but this thread. I think he's either got strong feelings about Hess, or he's one of our keelhauled trolls reincarnated after seeing a topic of opportunity.

[Oberon]

I note that this individual registered today, just to respond to this thread, and thus far, has not posted anywhere but this thread. I think he's either got strong feelings about Hess, or he's one of our keelhauled trolls reincarnated after seeing a topic of opportunity.

Maybe he's an escaped camp commandant, with all this knowledge of the camps that no-one else in the world, not even the people who were imprisoned in them has been aware of?

Where's Simon Wiesenthal?

[Growler]

Anyway... my original statements/questions still stand unanswered.

Why the singling out of Hess, to remain in Spandau until his death some 40 years on, when other ardent Nazis walked free after only a few months or years? What was the point in the Western Allies holding Hess specifically?

[Gerald]

May well be a question of prestige, from a political perspective....

[Growler]

May well be a question of prestige, from a political perspective....

"As the senior surviving Nazi, we're going to lock you up for life, but let your mates off after a few months/years."

Ain't that a bit-. Guy's out of the war in 41, but still does the time that lots of Hitler's other cronies got out of by sticking it out to the bitter end.

[ZeeWolf]

I think you maybe a little misled my friend. Can you show me where in mein kampf where it mentions exterminating anybody.

After the war, in all the records the nazi's kept, they only found one peice of paper that mentioned the extermination of jews, written in poor German.

If you watch the nuremburg trials, you will see Hermann Goring looking totally bemused as he is trying to tell the prosecution that he and Hitler knew nothing about an extermination of the jews. But who really knows eh.

Btw, there are a few alternative documentaries on the so called "death camps",worth a watch if , like me, you are into all this conspiracy stuff.One of the interesting things they show is how shallow the water table is at auswitch,so so much for the stories of thousands of people being burnt is massive pits...of water??? lol, plus how much heat would it take to burn thousands of bodies in an open pit?

But the most eye opening vid you will ever see is a video with David Irving,who was untill he wrote a book called Hitlers war (which he researched for 10 years) ,one of the worlds most trusted and celebrated historians. The problem with his book was, there was nothing on the holocaust in it. He told his jewish publishers, it was because he found no evidence of one, and after refusing to make it up as they told him to do, they pulled his book.

But if you are into hating nazi's, he does mention a lot of sick things they did actually do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Aq485-WwF4

Excellent point c_t,
Mr. Irving starts speaking 11 minutes in to the video and finishes at the 1hr 12min mark.
This one hour of video is some of the most powerful and revealing and the most
compelling facts of WWII that I have ever heard in my 45 years of study.
The questions asked and answers given can only come from a scholar of
World War II history. But presented in away that honors the truth and truth seeker
as well as a novice such as I.

ZeeWolf

[Gerald]

"As the senior surviving Nazi, we're going to lock you up for life, but let your mates off after a few months/years."

Ain't that a bit-. Guy's out of the war in 41, but still does the time that lots of Hitler's other cronies got out of by sticking it out to the bitter end. What no one will have a clue about what was true or not.

[Growler]

What no one will have a clue about what was true or not.

I suppose you're right in that regard, and to the extent that what's done is done, it certainly doesn't matter much, as Herr Hess is beyond caring about what happens here any longer.

Just curious is all.

[Gerald]

I suppose you're right in that regard, and to the extent that what's done is done, it certainly doesn't matter much, as Herr Hess is beyond caring about what happens here any longer.

Just curious is all. Without curiosity, it becomes difficult to handle most things, I want to say that there is a driving force in many situations that you put into its.

[August]

I suppose you're right in that regard, and to the extent that what's done is done, it certainly doesn't matter much, as Herr Hess is beyond caring about what happens here any longer.

It was never about just Hess. It's about neo-nazis and their sympathizers attempting to whitewash their ideologies bloody past and gain a level of acceptability. We should never allow this to occur or we risk unleashing their evil on the world again.

[Growler]

It was never about just Hess. It's about neo-nazis and their sympathizers attempting to whitewash their ideologies bloody past and gain a level of acceptability. We should never allow this to occur or we risk unleashing their evil on the world again.


Oh, I agree wholeheartedly in regard to the removal of Hess' remains - I didn't mean to give the impression otherwise, and apologize if I did.

I'm just curious as to folks' thoughts why Hess spent the rest of his life in Spandau, when, if I remember correctly, no other convicted Nazi suffered the same fate.

[Sailor Steve]

Where is Steve? If anyone can cram a trolls terrible argument where the sun doesn't shine it's him.
Right here, catching up. And you're wrong about me, at least in this case, because I don't have all the answers. I've seen enough to have the opinion that deniers mostly want Nazism to come back, and even once had the pleasure of talking to a neo-Nazi who insisted that it was all a lie, the Nazis never killed any jews. When I asked what his solution was, he replied "Kill all the lying Jews."

So my question to this guy is the same: Assuming you are right, what is your answer to the problem?

Oh, and Hottentot is doing a great job, so why should I butt in? I haven't even read Mein Kampf. On the other hand I do have a great big book called The Auschwitz Chronical, which contains all the records for the entire existence of that camp. Unfortunately it's currently in my storage. Fortunately I should be moving all that stuff to my apartment tomorrow.

Now I have to risk stepping on some toes, and please remember it's just my opinion. Why is it against the law to deny the holocaust in Europe? I think it's because there is an absolutism hard-wired into the German psyche, that says something must be one thing or the other. I believe that the same gene that led to Nazi intolerance in the first place now leads to absolute intolerance for anything the Nazis did or stood for. I first started thinking this in my early days as a model builder when I would read requests in magazines for German aircraft markings, since European model manufacturers couldn't put swastikas in their kits.

Preposterous? Probably. But my grandmother was from Germany and I see it in myself. But I also have to admit that it's no more likely than horoscopes being true. So I don't know, and no, I don't really believe it. But every time I grind my teeth when someone walks across the street against the light, I wonder about myself.

As to Cosnpiracy Theory, I'll bet he believes this absolutely, and while he tries to get everyone else to question their beliefs, he never questions himself. He's either absolutely convince he's absolutely right, with no room for even a question, or else, as someone pointed out, he's one of our keelhauled trolls returned for some fun.

[ZeeWolf]

It was never about just Hess. It's about neo-nazis and their sympathizers attempting to whitewash their ideologies bloody past and gain a level of acceptability. We should never allow this to occur or we risk unleashing their evil on the world again.

Hi August,
And what evil are you referring to? The murder of innocent people maybe?
Murder, stealing and wonton destruction with the proportion of out right lies has not even slowed down since the
the effort to "make the world safe for democracy". And that started all most
a hundred years ago.
Most men I know hate lies and liars, as I myself do. But it was those who hate
the truth who cried out "CRUCIFY HIM!" the loudest.

Just something to think about,

ZeeWolf:salute:

[August]

Hi August,
And what evil are you referring to? The murder of innocent people maybe?
Murder, stealing and wonton destruction with the proportion of out right lies has not even slowed down since the
the effort to "make the world safe for democracy". And that started all most
a hundred years ago.
Most men I know hate lies and liars, as I myself do. But it was those who hate
the truth who cried out "CRUCIFY HIM!" the loudest.

Just something to think about,

ZeeWolf:salute:

So what you're saying is the nazis weren't evil? That other evil people and regimes excuse the nazis crimes?

There is nothing good about nazism or the people who espouse that ideology.

[ZeeWolf]

So what you're saying is the nazis weren't evil? That other evil people and regimes excuse the nazis crimes?

There is nothing good about nazism or the people who espouse that ideology.

I do not think the nazis or naziism would even be an issue if the truth was as
valued as say - a nations freedom.

[sidslotm]

What the European facists exposed to the world is how people can be controlled and manipulated with consumate ease. Edward Bernates in 1920's USA understood this concept very well, and was probably the first man to actually put the idea into practice.

Freedom is a confrontational event, it is not just a word. Freedon: I am free to think and speak my mind in a free Nation, without control or hinderance from others.

This is where the problem really starts, yes I am free to think and speak, but when my thoughts and words stat to control others, our freedom is threatened. Hitler and his like studied Bernayes and discovered new ways of controlling people through education and reason. The Nazies where corrupted by their own arrogance, and through them a Nation was corruputed, the result, a second European civil war from which Europe has never really recovered.

[August]

I do not think the nazis or naziism would even be an issue if the truth was as
valued as say - a nations freedom.

I've seen the results of the nazi version "truth" and "freedom" and as far as i'm concerned anyone who espouses the nazi ideology is an enemy of humanity.

[Tribesman]

Excellent point c_t,
Mr. Irving starts speaking .......
You really have to read no further than that.
David Irving:har::har::har::har::har::har:
Bloody loonys

[ZeeWolf]

I've seen the results of the nazi version "truth" and "freedom" and as far as i'm concerned anyone who espouses the nazi ideology is an enemy of humanity.

Interesting but totally beside the point. A suppressor of truth is far worse than a "enemy of humanity" they become immediately an enemy of the truth.
Look, the truth will stand forever and therefore can never be destroyed. But on the other hand a lie can be destroyed in an instant and that is why a man like
Mr. Irving is so reviled and despised. The house of fraud that is built on lies will always resort to any and all means to stay standing and applauds deceit and
character assassination etc... :doh:
As far as freedom is concerned it was Jesus that said "Know the truth because it is the truth that sets you free".:up:

As far as the term "enemy of humanity" that's just another Marxist term of
abuse used to denounce and destroy.:DL

ZeeWolf

[August]

As far as the term "enemy of humanity" that's just another Marxist term of abuse used to denounce and destroy.:DL

Except that:

A. Just about any words can be used to denounce and destroy and
B. I'm no Marxist

[vienna]

Why was Hess kept in prison for a longer term than other Nazis? Well, for one thing, he was a symbol of the power of the Nazis (right-hand man to Hitler, party big-wig, etc.) The Allies needed someone as a proof they were hard on the Nazis and their crimes. Hess just happened to fill the bill for their purposes. Add to this the USSR's refusal to go along with setting certain Nazi prisoners free (e.g., Albert Speer, etc.) becuase they felt the need to exact a severe penalty on someone after Hitler died. Also, a lot of the other Nazis became "valuable" to the Allies after the war as the Cold War progressed; InterPol, NATO, various police/scientific/espionage groups and organizations were infested with former Nazis who lent their expertise to both the West and the USSR. Werner von Braun, who designed the dreaded, deadly V-rockets that caused so much destruction to Britain and who used, knowingly, concentration camp slave labor to carry out his projects is a highly considered, if not revered, part of the U.S. civilian and military space history; but the U.S. turned a blind eye when his value exceeded his guilt.

Why is their no "comments" section on the media sites reporting the Hess disinterment? You have only to look at this topic to know the answer. Thus far, the rhetoric has been fairly civilized on this topic; however, the postings here are by people who, for the greater part, know and respect the observed courtesies of this forum. Public media forums are apt to attract all manner of extreme postings of all stripes and of not too respectful or courteous demeanor. The comments were most likely blocked to avoid the manure storm of extreme postings and the need to defend themselves against charges of allowing such postings. It is a simple reason for a simple solution. No conspiracies or malevolence involved; just common sense...


Anti-semitism was rife in Europe in the first half of the 20th Century; the Germans had no exclusivity to it until the 40's.


It was also rife in this country, as well. Such public luminaries as Charles Lindberg openly and vocally espoused the Nazi cause in this country and were active in the various American Bund organizations:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_American_Bund

(The above article does not metion Lindberg, but, from a PBS site:

http://www.pbs.org/perilousfight/social/antisemitism/

"The other famous American was Charles Lindbergh, who may have been an anti-Semite, but most certainly claimed publicly that Jews were trying, partly through their ownership of the media, to draw America into the war. Lindbergh represented America First, the powerful isolationist organization that, in fact, ejected Henry Ford for his anti-Semitic views.The other famous American was Charles Lindbergh, who may have been an anti-Semite, but most certainly claimed publicly that Jews were trying, partly through their ownership of the media, to draw America into the war. Lindbergh represented America First, the powerful isolationist organization that, in fact, ejected Henry Ford for his anti-Semitic views."

And about Henry Ford [from the same PBS site]:

"By 1939, the anti-Semites had two causes: keeping America out of the European war, and keeping European Jews out of America. And they had two famous men in their ranks. Henry Ford was a true rags-to-riches hero. He was also an anti-Semite, who railed incessantly against "the Jewish plan to control the world" in his newspaper, the Dearborn Independent (circulation allegedly 700,000), which Ford dealerships distributed free of charge. A collection of Ford's ghostwritten columns was published as The International Jew: The World's Foremost Problem — a best-seller in Germany."

Ford also kept a framed picture of Hitler on his office desk at the Ford Motor Co.; the photo somehow disappeared after the start of WWII...

And let's not forget Irving Berlin and his song "God Bless America". There was once a movement to use the song in place of "The Star Spangled Banner" as the U.S. national anthem. The effort was cut down over objections that a song written by a Jew would be a sort of desecration in a God-fearing country such as the U.S. It is more than a little ironic to note the singing of the song by members of Congress immediately following 9/11 on the steps of the Capitol and the now common practice of sing the song at nearly every sporting or political event; somewhere, Irving Berlin looks down with a wry smile...

Thus ends my rant, and, to answer any questions, no, I am not Jewish, I was raised a catholic (now lapsed): I just like common sense...

[ZeeWolf]

Except that:

A. Just about any words can be used to denounce and destroy and
B. I'm no Marxist

Boy August, I have never had a simple conversation so mis-understood.


Have a nice day:salute:

[August]

Boy August, I have never had a simple conversation so mis-understood.

Funny that's exactly what I was thinking about you.

Have a nice day:salute:

and you as well sir.

[Growler]

Why was Hess kept in prison for a longer term than other Nazis? Well, for one thing, ...


Thank you, vienna, for an answer that was both well-thought out and composed; I hadn't meant to imply that anti-Semitism wasn't happening in America (as you clarified, it was) but meant to focus on that aspect of European - specifically, German and Soviet - anti-Semitism that directly facilitated the rise of National Socialism in Germany, and the confrontation with Leninism-Marxism in the Soviet Union.

Given the technical prowess of men like Von Braun, it does seem to make sense that Hess would be selected to bear the brunt of the punishment in the West - the proverbial fall guy. Which then makes me wonder: was he kept in Spandau because he was a Nazi, or was he kept in Spandau to keep HIM safe from the Soviets?

[AngusJS]

Btw, there are a few alternative documentaries on the so called "death camps",worth a watch if , like me, you are into all this conspiracy stuff.One of the interesting things they show is how shallow the water table is at auswitch,so so much for the stories of thousands of people being burnt is massive pits...of water??? lol, plus how much heat would it take to burn thousands of bodies in an open pit?Millions were sent to the camps. Almost all did not return. What happened to them? Were they abducted by aliens?

What's the most likely explanation?

What motivates you to ignore it?

[Onkel Neal]

I note that this individual registered today, just to respond to this thread, and thus far, has not posted anywhere but this thread. I think he's either got strong feelings about Hess, or he's one of our keelhauled trolls reincarnated after seeing a topic of opportunity.


We have a winner! :yeah:

[ZeeWolf]

Thank you, vienna, for an answer that was both well-thought out and composed; I hadn't meant to imply that anti-Semitism wasn't happening in America (as you clarified, it was) but meant to focus on that aspect of European - specifically, German and Soviet - anti-Semitism that directly facilitated the rise of National Socialism in Germany, and the confrontation with Leninism-Marxism in the Soviet Union.

Given the technical prowess of men like Von Braun, it does seem to make sense that Hess would be selected to bear the brunt of the punishment in the West - the proverbial fall guy. Which then makes me wonder: was he kept in Spandau because he was a Nazi, or was he kept in Spandau to keep HIM safe from the Soviets?

Hi Growler,
I believe Hess defected before operation Barbarossa, so the Soviets had no
reason other than a political one.

Zee

[Penguin]

Wow.
There I am, jusone night out, drinking with the lads, and I come back to a thread full of comedy. Man,I love the complaining in first posts how one is not allowed to talk about holocaust denial - on a board where the owner allows this discussion, and where the server is histed under the law of Texas, USA - or are ZOG the three letters you funny guys like to refer to the States. Guess the jewish-controlled United States do allow some discussion :o?

As I am not sober now, I refrain from a discussion with the nutters, who present no new claim to their cases since decades: yawn!

So I prefer to respond to a guy who looks like a legitimate member, as he is a relative to the one,only and real Mr. Rivit -bro-in-law, I think?

I do believe there was a holocaust, but what i really want to know.. is why Hess killed himself at 93.. I would have just finished the sentence

The reason why not many people off themselves at 93 is that not many people reach that age and not many are in the physical condition to choose. If you talk to people who work in retirement homes, you'll see that suicide at old age is as comman as in any age group.
A psychological motive might be to show that you are still in control of your own decisions - and do not rely on the health care of your enemy - as which Hess still saw the people who kept him in prison.

[Penguin]

other people I would only like to quote:

[snip]... and if you watch the alternative tour of Auschwitz on google, you can see that they are not even connected to anything.

...
i've just googled them,a regualr size crematorium
,in which they burnt 1000's per day? It takes hours for one body to burn.

If you google death camps,you will see 1000's of jewish websites telling us all about the holocaust.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial

too lazy to make a meme:

Google
making everybody a researcher since 1997

[Hottentot]

I haven't even read Mein Kampf.

Offtopic, but still: I recommend doing that, if you can find time. It's a fascinating book. People love to talk about Hitler, but not many people for some reason take the opportunity to study his thoughts and backgrounds, even when they are readily available in a convenient book form. It's a great source and can be easily found online too (that's how I found the English quotes for my post).

Oh, and thanks for the compliment :oops:.

[joea]

If I said what I thought to a couple of members - one of whom let me down espeically reading other posts - I'd get put in the brig so I better calm down before I post something stupid. :shifty::dead:

[Snestorm]

Quite a jail term, for a diplomat on a peace mission.

[Hottentot]

If I said what I thought to a couple of members - one of whom let me down espeically reading other posts - I'd get put in the brig so I better calm down before I post something stupid. :shifty::dead:

Oh noes! Please, please, please don't go! We'll bake a cake, if you stay! :yep:

[Gerald]

http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/5778/541827830124969391.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/818/541827830124969391.jpg/)

On Wednesday 20 July 2011 - the anniversary of the attempt on Hitler's life in 1944 - the public was informed that the grave of Rudolf Hess, the "Fuehrer's deputy", had been razed before daybreak.

Beyond the fascinating coincidence in the date - there will surely be further speculation on this - the decision by Hess's heirs was surprising.

They wanted to commit his mortal remains to the waves and organise a funeral at sea for a man whose mystique and influence on the far-right was strongly linked to the existence of his grave in the Bavarian village of Wunsiedel.

He was already one the most interesting figures in post-war Germany, being the only high-ranking Nazi serving a life sentence imposed by the Nuremberg war-crimes court - Albert Speer, for instance, was released in 1966.

'Anti-German plot'

Hess owes his ambiguous fame to the circumstances of his death. He was found hanged in a summer house in Berlin's Spandau Prison, where he had spent the previous 20 years.

The official version - contested by right-wingers of all stripes - was that he committed suicide to end his long imprisonment.

For the German and international far-right movement, this was clear evidence that the powers that be had tried to suppress the truth about an "anti-German" plot dating back to the war years.

According to this version of events, the Allied forces - notably the British secret service - ignored the true purpose of Hess's flight to Britain in 1941. He was taking a peace plan to Churchill, he told his interrogators.

This idea made Hess the perfect figure to portray the Nazis as victims, rather than aggressors.

Britain had started World War II to destroy Germany, and Hess was captured in Scotland to crush the peaceful intentions of Nazi Germany.

Even the fact that Hitler declared him insane did not dent this legend.

Revitalised myth

Moreover the resurgent Nazi scene in recent years has gradually recognised the potential of this myth to attract young people susceptible to tales of injustice.

What started as a tiny demonstration of a handful of Nazi activists in the 1990s had turned into thousands regularly filling the streets of Wunsiedel by early 2000s.

Everybody who looked at such scenes - including myself and my academic colleagues - felt uncomfortable. Most of the demonstrators were young and dressed like average heavy-metal kids - until you looked at their T-shirts and tattoos.

The Hess myth, modernised to satisfy a desire for victimhood, made the Wundsiedel commemorations alluring to young people. But it also led the Constitutional Court to ban the event in 2005, as the potential for the recruitment of new blood into the Neo-Nazi movement got increasingly obvious.

However the court order had limited effect on such gatherings, which continued less frequently and at a smaller scale elsewhere. But then Hess had become a kind of right-wing Che Guevara, with his portrait on shirts, buttons and posters.

In the end the family agreed to terminate the lease on the grave.

Thus an event that many would have thought highly improbably until now became reality on Wednesday evening. What might be the consequences of this startling decision?

Nazi zombie

Firstly, it is no coincidence that the relatives and officials chose to eliminate every physical trace of a figure with a vast potential for creating right-wing legends.

As was the case for Osama Bin Laden some weeks ago, the authorities understand the power of a permanent shrine to a highly controversial figure.

It becomes a place of pilgrimage, a focus for irrational and uncontrollable worship.

Secondly, the far-right movement has lost a crucial place embodying myths and legends that give it a friendly face. The neo-Nazis desperately need to celebrate the memory of an attractive "hero" for the benefit of new recruits.

And thirdly, there will be an increased potential for violence of all kinds - from street unrest to digital stalking - by the far-right.

Deprived of a leading rallying figure, the movement will feel that its noble tradition has been humiliated by unjust powers yet again.

Ultimately it is possible that a renewed cult could rise again around Hess, the ultimate Nazi zombie.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14244165

Note: Update Record,22 July 2011 Last updated at 00:24 GMT

[joea]

Oh noes! Please, please, please don't go! We'll bake a cake, if you stay! :yep:
If you're not being sarcastic, I wasn't planning to leave the forum - just saying I better not do anything that will ensure I get a vacation if you catch my drift.

I prefer chocolate cake btw. :woot:

[Hottentot]

I was being sarcastic, but in my usual light hearted way. I just didn't (for the second time) see the point of posting in the middle of discussion and saying you are not going to say anything, but people discussing are still idiots.

[Feuer Frei!]

Well, all i can say is i'm glad i didn't post this article. And i would have beaten Vendor to the punch because one, he hadn't posted it at that time and i had the finger on the trigger, ready to submit post.
Glad i didn't. It's the usual BS discussions about Nazis and what if's and maybe's and conspiracy theories and stuff that has been discussed everywhere in the World.

[Gerald]

So you see our records that a race?, If that is the fastest, it does not me, but enjoy it yourself, keep it up, regarding this, so just like many other postings, then the reaction from many sources, some less gifted a second, so it is and so there will always be, but the step to prevent postings of this kind, is quite another.

[Feuer Frei!]

So you see our records that a race?, If that is the fastest, it does not me, but enjoy it yourself, keep it up, regarding this, so just like many other postings, then the reaction from many sources, some less gifted a second, so it is and so there will always be, but the step to prevent postings of this kind, is quite another.
You misunderstand me.
This is not a race, far from it. I am not competing with you, Vendor. I have more pressing matters to attend to in life than to race with post counts. What i meant by my last post was that i am glad i didn't post it because i knew it would bring up a troll who is fishing, and also discussions which have been worn out so many times in the past.
Now, as for my wording with the "would have beaten Vendor to the punch", i can see how that can be misconstrued, however what i meant by that is that i wanted to get the message across that i could have, but didn't post the article. Simply that.

[Gerald]

You misunderstand me.
This is not a race, far from it. I am not competing with you, Vendor. I have more pressing matters to attend to in life than to race with post counts. What i meant by my last post was that i am glad i didn't post it because i knew it would bring up a troll who is fishing, and also discussions which have been worn out so many times in the past.
Now, as for my wording with the "would have beaten Vendor to the punch", i can see how that can be misconstrued, however what i meant by that is that i wanted to get the message across that i could have, but didn't post the article. Simply that. Do not worry my friend, I do not interpret your words as negative, I am fully aware that the "Post" such as this, can attract trolls, and people who find it fun, to not be serious in their actions.

[TLAM Strike]

Quite a jail term, for a diplomat on a peace mission.
Peace in this case would be giving the Axis a free hand in Europe, lets not forget that this happened about a month before Operation Barbarossa and while there was a stalemate going on in North Africa (six months before Operation Crusader pushes the Axis back in to Libya). Any peace with the Allies would have been a clear 'win' for the Germans at this point.

[Feuer Frei!]

Do not worry my friend, I do not interpret your words as negative, I am fully aware that the "Post" such as this, can attract trolls, and people who find it fun, to not be serious in their actions.
Apologies Vendor, i had my defenses up. I will lower them. :salute:
I just didn't quiete understand your words.

[Gerald]

Apologies Vendor, i had my defenses up. I will lower them. :salute:
I just didn't quiete understand your words. Do not worry, you are always welcome,:salute:

[Jimbuna]

Back on track now I hope.

Peace in this case would be giving the Axis a free hand in Europe, lets not forget that this happened about a month before Operation Barbarossa and while there was a stalemate going on in North Africa (six months before Operation Crusader pushes the Axis back in to Libya). Any peace with the Allies would have been a clear 'win' for the Germans at this point.

Yes, I used to wonder if the offer of a peaceful solution was actually part of Hitlers bigger strategic plan.

[TLAM Strike]

Yes, I used to wonder if the offer of a peaceful solution was actually part of Hitlers bigger strategic plan.
Yea I think it was, Hitler had a deep respect for the English (the rest of the UKers I'm not so sure about), he considered the UK a potential Ally before the war and considered the English to be one of the superior races of the world just below his Ubermensch and well above the Jews and Slavs.

[Gerald]

Yes the end, would have been different if he listened to his senior military generals, about the tactical moves that should be used, and when that time will be.

[Gerald]

some links,


http://knol.google.com/k/rudolf-hess-s-big-secret#

http://knol.google.com/k/rudolf-hess-s-big-secret#Rudolf_Hess%28E2%29%2880%29%2899%29s_%28E2% 29%2880%29%2898%29Big_Secret%28E2%29%2880%29%2899% 29

[Penguin]

@Vendor: The first article is about Rudolf Höss , the Auschwitz commandant - not Rudolf Hess. The site mixes the names in the article all the times. No hairsplitting here, as a little letter (alt + 148) can make an essential difference.

[Gerald]

@Vendor: The first article is about Rudolf Höss , the Auschwitz commandant - not Rudolf Hess. The site mixes the names in the article all the times. No hairsplitting here, as a little letter (alt + 148) can make an essential difference. Thank you, for what you did ... I adjusted the links, and removed the first one, :up:

[Jimbuna]

Yea I think it was, Hitler had a deep respect for the English (the rest of the UKers I'm not so sure about), he considered the UK a potential Ally before the war and considered the English to be one of the superior races of the world just below his Ubermensch and well above the Jews and Slavs.

Well he certainly got the English part nearly correct :smug:

[ZeeWolf]

http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/5778/541827830124969391.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/818/541827830124969391.jpg/)

On Wednesday 20 July 2011 - the anniversary of the attempt on Hitler's life in 1944 - the public was informed that the grave of Rudolf Hess, the "Fuehrer's deputy", had been razed before daybreak.

Beyond the fascinating coincidence in the date - there will surely be further speculation on this - the decision by Hess's heirs was surprising.

They wanted to commit his mortal remains to the waves and organise a funeral at sea for a man whose mystique and influence on the far-right was strongly linked to the existence of his grave in the Bavarian village of Wunsiedel.

He was already one the most interesting figures in post-war Germany, being the only high-ranking Nazi serving a life sentence imposed by the Nuremberg war-crimes court - Albert Speer, for instance, was released in 1966.

'Anti-German plot'

Hess owes his ambiguous fame to the circumstances of his death. He was found hanged in a summer house in Berlin's Spandau Prison, where he had spent the previous 20 years.

The official version - contested by right-wingers of all stripes - was that he committed suicide to end his long imprisonment.

For the German and international far-right movement, this was clear evidence that the powers that be had tried to suppress the truth about an "anti-German" plot dating back to the war years.

According to this version of events, the Allied forces - notably the British secret service - ignored the true purpose of Hess's flight to Britain in 1941. He was taking a peace plan to Churchill, he told his interrogators.

This idea made Hess the perfect figure to portray the Nazis as victims, rather than aggressors.

Britain had started World War II to destroy Germany, and Hess was captured in Scotland to crush the peaceful intentions of Nazi Germany.

Even the fact that Hitler declared him insane did not dent this legend.

Revitalised myth

Moreover the resurgent Nazi scene in recent years has gradually recognised the potential of this myth to attract young people susceptible to tales of injustice.

What started as a tiny demonstration of a handful of Nazi activists in the 1990s had turned into thousands regularly filling the streets of Wunsiedel by early 2000s.

Everybody who looked at such scenes - including myself and my academic colleagues - felt uncomfortable. Most of the demonstrators were young and dressed like average heavy-metal kids - until you looked at their T-shirts and tattoos.

The Hess myth, modernised to satisfy a desire for victimhood, made the Wundsiedel commemorations alluring to young people. But it also led the Constitutional Court to ban the event in 2005, as the potential for the recruitment of new blood into the Neo-Nazi movement got increasingly obvious.

However the court order had limited effect on such gatherings, which continued less frequently and at a smaller scale elsewhere. But then Hess had become a kind of right-wing Che Guevara, with his portrait on shirts, buttons and posters.

In the end the family agreed to terminate the lease on the grave.

Thus an event that many would have thought highly improbably until now became reality on Wednesday evening. What might be the consequences of this startling decision?

Nazi zombie

Firstly, it is no coincidence that the relatives and officials chose to eliminate every physical trace of a figure with a vast potential for creating right-wing legends.

As was the case for Osama Bin Laden some weeks ago, the authorities understand the power of a permanent shrine to a highly controversial figure.

It becomes a place of pilgrimage, a focus for irrational and uncontrollable worship.

Secondly, the far-right movement has lost a crucial place embodying myths and legends that give it a friendly face. The neo-Nazis desperately need to celebrate the memory of an attractive "hero" for the benefit of new recruits.

And thirdly, there will be an increased potential for violence of all kinds - from street unrest to digital stalking - by the far-right.

Deprived of a leading rallying figure, the movement will feel that its noble tradition has been humiliated by unjust powers yet again.

Ultimately it is possible that a renewed cult could rise again around Hess, the ultimate Nazi zombie.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14244165

Note: Update Record,22 July 2011 Last updated at 00:24 GMT

Hello Vendor,
I do not believe the "myth" [that surrounds Hess] could be destroyed until the truth about Churchill's roll in Hess's outrages treatment and sentence. And the most important
source that needs to be free and open to public scrutiny is the secret service (MI5) files that detail the daily ultra-top secret communication between all branches of the German armed
forces. The most relevant files that need to be examined are the Brit secret archived files that cover the time before the invasion of Russia. This would reveal if there was any interest in what Hess could have revealed about the Russian invasion.
But, these archive files never will be made available because starting in 1942 the ultra-top secret code of the SS was broken and they include the daily
communication between Berlin and 'ALL' concentration camp reports.
And of course this would destroy the myth around the concentration camps
and we sure couldn't have that - now can we?

ZeeWolf

[vienna]

Quote from Hottentot (re: Mien Kampf):

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/smartdark/viewpost.gif (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=1709493#post1709493)
I haven't even read Mein Kampf.


Offtopic, but still: I recommend doing that, if you can find time. It's a fascinating book. People love to talk about Hitler, but not many people for some reason take the opportunity to study his thoughts and backgrounds, even when they are readily available in a convenient book form. It's a great source and can be easily found online too (that's how I found the English quotes for my post).


As an interesting side note, the late Alan Cranston, former U.S. Senator from California, holds the distinction of having been sued by Hitler's book publishers (and by extension, Hitler) for an unauthorized, annotated edition of "Mein Kampf":

Alan Cranston, The US Senator Who Was Sued By Adolf Hitler And Lost

From an interview (http://globetrotter.berkeley.edu/people/Cranston/cranston-con2.html) shortly before his death in 2000, the four-term Democratic Senator from California recounted his experience as a young foreign correspondent in the 1930's:
While I was doing my foreign correspondence work, I read Adolph Hitler's Mein Kampf, the book he wrote while he was in prison before he became the dictator, outlining his plans for Germany and the terrible things he intended to do in the world. There was no English language version of it. When I quit journalism and came back to try to get involved in activities in the United States, one day in Macy's bookstore in New York I saw a display of Mein Kampf, an English language version, which I'd never seen before, which hadn't existed. I went over to look at it out of curiosity and as I picked it up, I knew it wasn't the real book. It was much thinner than the long book that I had read, which is about 350,000 words. So I bought it to see how come. And delving into it I found that it was a condensed version, and some of the things that would most upset Americans just weren't there as they were in the version I had read, the original, in German.
So I talked to an editor friend of mine in New York, a Hearst editor named Amster Spiro, and suggested that I write and we publish an anti-Nazi version of Mein Kampf that would be the real book and would awaken Americans to the peril Hitler posed for us and the rest of the world. So we did that. I spent eight days [compiling] my version of Mein Kampf from the English language version that I now had, the original German language version, and another copy that had just appeared. A book was then selling for around three dollars normal price. Hitler was getting forty cents royalty for each copy that somebody bought that wasn't [even] the real thing. We proceeded to print in tabloid the version that I wrote, with a very lurid red cover showing Hitler carving up the world, and we sold it for ten cents on newsstands. It created quite a stir. Some Nazis went around knocking down newsstands that displayed it in St. Louis and the German part of New York and elsewhere in the country. We sold half a million copies in ten days and were immediately sued by Hitler's agents on the grounds we had violated his copyright, which we had done. We had the theory that [though] he had copyrighted Mein Kampf in Austria, he had destroyed Austria with his army, so we said he destroyed his copyright at the same time. Well, that didn't stand up in court, and a Connecticut judge ruled in Hitler's favor. No damages were assessed, but we had to stop selling the book. We got what was called an injunction. But we did wake up a lot of Americans to the Nazi threat.

Source:

http://www.tommcmahon.net/2008/01/alan-cranston-t.html

[ZeeWolf]

Quote from Hottentot (re: Mien Kampf):

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/smartdark/viewpost.gif (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=1709493#post1709493)
I haven't even read Mein Kampf.



As an interesting side note, the late Alan Cranston, former U.S. Senator from Claifornia, holds the distinction of having been sued by Hitler's book ublishers (and by extension, Hitler) for an unauthorized, annotated edition of "Mein Kampf":

Alan Cranston, The US Senator Who Was Sued By Adolf Hitler And Lost

From an interview (http://globetrotter.berkeley.edu/people/Cranston/cranston-con2.html) shortly before his death in 2000, the four-term Democratic Senator from California recounted his experience as a young foreign correspondent in the 1930's:While I was doing my foreign correspondence work, I read Adolph Hitler's Mein Kampf, the book he wrote while he was in prison before he became the dictator, outlining his plans for Germany and the terrible things he intended to do in the world. There was no English language version of it. When I quit journalism and came back to try to get involved in activities in the United States, one day in Macy's bookstore in New York I saw a display of Mein Kampf, an English language version, which I'd never seen before, which hadn't existed. I went over to look at it out of curiosity and as I picked it up, I knew it wasn't the real book. It was much thinner than the long book that I had read, which is about 350,000 words. So I bought it to see how come. And delving into it I found that it was a condensed version, and some of the things that would most upset Americans just weren't there as they were in the version I had read, the original, in German.
So I talked to an editor friend of mine in New York, a Hearst editor named Amster Spiro, and suggested that I write and we publish an anti-Nazi version of Mein Kampf that would be the real book and would awaken Americans to the peril Hitler posed for us and the rest of the world. So we did that. I spent eight days [compiling] my version of Mein Kampf from the English language version that I now had, the original German language version, and another copy that had just appeared. A book was then selling for around three dollars normal price. Hitler was getting forty cents royalty for each copy that somebody bought that wasn't [even] the real thing. We proceeded to print in tabloid the version that I wrote, with a very lurid red cover showing Hitler carving up the world, and we sold it for ten cents on newsstands. It created quite a stir. Some Nazis went around knocking down newsstands that displayed it in St. Louis and the German part of New York and elsewhere in the country. We sold half a million copies in ten days and were immediately sued by Hitler's agents on the grounds we had violated his copyright, which we had done. We had the theory that [though] he had copyrighted Mein Kampf in Austria, he had destroyed Austria with his army, so we said he destroyed his copyright at the same time. Well, that didn't stand up in court, and a Connecticut judge ruled in Hitler's favor. No damages were assessed, but we had to stop selling the book. We got what was called an injunction. But we did wake up a lot of Americans to the Nazi threat.

Source:

http://www.tommcmahon.net/2008/01/alan-cranston-t.html





Wow, a commie sued for what communists do best - lie and make up lies.
Now you know why all major publishers must be owned by those who support patriots like Cranston.

ZeeWolf

[MH]

Possibly interesting read for some or Jewish/communist/capitalists propaganda for others.
http://www.hdot.org/en/struggle

Bw
I have seen the link posted here to Irving lecture.
Its a history lesson for dummies.

[Penguin]

As an interesting side note, the late Alan Cranston, former U.S. Senator from Claifornia, holds the distinction of having been sued by Hitler's book ublishers (and by extension, Hitler) for an unauthorized, annotated edition of "Mein Kampf":

Indeed, very interesting, never heard of this story yet.

What I find somehow strange is that the holocaust denial fan club, who see the handwriting of the jews on any paper written, does not question the legitimacy of "Mein Kampf". Is this one of the few documents that was not not forged by the Juice? :o
I bet however, that there are people out there who claim this book is commiejewish propaganda to paint the Nazis in a bad light, and not as those smart, gentle, humanitarian truth-checkers as they are in reality. Something like the elders of Braunau. :)

[ZeeWolf]

Possibly interesting read for some or Jewish/communist/capitalists propaganda for others.
http://www.hdot.org/en/struggle

Bw
I have seen the link posted here to Irving lecture.
Its a history lesson for dummies.

I check out your link and clicked the "Holocaust Denial" link and read:
"The Holocaust is one of the most thoroughly researched periods of history."
A total lie on it's face. The death and resurrection of Christ is perhaps No1,
but I must say the selling of the false guilt caused by the "Holocaust" industry
possibly equals or maybe surpasses the (very profitable) porn industry.
However I must say it does help our wonderful little ally in the middle east though.

Yes , I agree whole heatedly that the Irving lecture is for dummies - like
me, before I watched the video and LISTENED to what he had to say.

Peace! :DL

ZeeWolf

[Penguin]

I check out your link and clicked the "Holocaust Denial" link and read:
"The Holocaust is one of the most thoroughly researched periods of history."
A total lie on it's face.


Why is that so? I thought the brilliant revisionist scientists do research this period? If they revealed the myth of the Holocaust they must have done some thorough research, don't they?


The death and resurrection of Christ is perhaps No1,
but I must say the selling of the false guilt caused by the "Holocaust" industry
possibly equals or maybe surpasses the (very profitable) porn industry.
though.


Sorry, I am just a dumb Aryan from Germany. I don't understand what you mean by the first sentence. Is Jesus' death also a lie? Or do you mean that this story (also) results in guilt and/or profit?


Peace! :DL

ZeeWolf

Shalom!
Penguin

[August]

I hate nazis.

http://www.8notes.com/wiki/images/300px-BluesBrothers.jpg

[ZeeWolf]

Sorry, I am just a dumb Aryan from Germany. I don't understand what you mean by the first sentence. Is Jesus' death also a lie? Or do you mean that this story (also) results in guilt and/or profit?

Shalom!
Penguin

That's ok Penguin, no need to fell guilt over that too, just read it over again real slow or as many times as it takes to understand :DL

Shalom!

ZeeWolf :salute:

[Penguin]

That's ok Penguin, no need to fell guilt over that too, just read it over again real slow or as many times as it takes to understand :DL

Shalom!

ZeeWolf :salute:

That's why I asked to elaborate, as your sentence is somehow confusing. I had a guess that you mean the sale of false guilt by the church, but your capitalizing of Christ doesn't fit in this.
How can one understand you if you do neither explain your point nor answer a question about it? :06:

Anyway, nice that you worry about my guilt - but sadly you know **** about it - as I only feel guilty for things that I regret and of which I am personal responsible for.

Salam!
Penguin

[MH]

However I must say it does help our wonderful little ally in the middle east though.



Interesting that you feel that way-cant figure out why though.
Look on the bright side Holocaust is a good reason for existence of this little allay in ME.
You don't want another bunch of obnoxious god dammed Jews in your living space.
Finely some of us ****ed off where we belong.

[NeonSamurai]

This site is good for detailed holocaust information and evidence (including archeological evidence), and thorough systematic rebuttals of the crap posted by the zombie, conspiracy_theory.

www.nizkor.org (http://www.nizkor.org)

[ZeeWolf]

That's why I asked to elaborate, as your sentence is somehow confusing. I had a guess that you mean the sale of false guilt by the church, but your capitalizing of Christ doesn't fit in this.
How can one understand you if you do neither explain your point nor answer a question about it? :06:

Anyway, nice that you worry about my guilt - but sadly you know **** about it - as I only feel guilty for things that I regret and of which I am personal responsible for.

Salam!
Penguin

After saying **** it sounds like maybe your "Salam!" isn't all that sincere
What's really bothering you kamerad?

ZeeWolf :cry:

[vienna]

I decided to try and find the Cranston annotations to "Mein Kampf" but have so far been unsuccessful. I did, however find this site:

http://www.bookrags.com/wiki/Mein_Kampf

It has some rather interesting history and information regarding the book.

[Penguin]

After saying **** it sounds like maybe your "Salam!" isn't all that sincere
What's really bothering you kamerad?

ZeeWolf :cry:

The word Scheiße is part of my daily language.
no need to fell guilt over that too,
You made assumptions here about my guilt, hence my answer, as we don't know each other personally.
The salam, was sincere though, as we have a peaceful conversation here, don't we? And no: I am not your Kamerad.


This site is good for detailed holocaust information and evidence (including archeological evidence), and thorough systematic rebuttals of the crap posted by the zombie, conspiracy_theory.

www.nizkor.org (http://www.nizkor.org)

The site is also linked by the site that MH posted. But if someone refuses to inspect the site, because he doesn't like one sentence on it, then one can't see it.
Funny, as ZeeWolf wants us to watch a boring one hour speech by Irving, but refuses to explore a site where all the arguments from Holocaust deniers are represented and debated - not only in the trial transcript.

[ZeeWolf]

This site is good for detailed holocaust information and evidence (including archeological evidence), and thorough systematic rebuttals of the crap posted by the zombie, conspiracy_theory.

www.nizkor.org (http://www.nizkor.org)

Hi NoenSamurai,
I check out your link and I found it interesting. But I remember, when I was
just a little feller of seeing those horrible pictures of what those nazis did and
couple of images (I will never forget) where of shrunken human heads and soap
made from little Jewish children that the SS used to wash with.
Both Items presented as evidence at the Nuremberg trials.
And this my be a little off topic but is there any "How to"
instruction on making lampshades. Because there are allot of people with tattoos now
and that might generate more curiosity in the Holocaust.

ZeeWolf :salute:

[ZeeWolf]

The word Scheiße is part of my daily language.

You made assumptions here about my guilt, hence my answer, as we don't know each other personally.
The salam, was sincere though, as we have a peaceful conversation here, don't we? And no: I am not your Kamerad.




The site is also linked by the site that MH posted. But if someone refuses to inspect the site, because he doesn't like one sentence on it, then one can't see it.
Funny, as ZeeWolf wants us to watch a boring one hour speech by Irving, but refuses to explore a site where all the arguments from Holocaust deniers are represented and debated - not only in the trial transcript.

I am sorry Penguin I was away visiting http://www.nizkor.org/
As far as your use of Scheiße in your daily language, it must go much futher
then that if you have been living in the "New Germany"
Although our topic can get tense there is no reason to be anything but friendly and respectful.

That is my test for sincerity,

ZeeWolf

[Krauter]

Hi NoenSamurai,
I check out your link and I found it interesting. But I remember, when I was
just a little feller of seeing those horrible pictures of what those nazis did and
couple of images (I will never forget) where of shrunken human heads and soap
made from little Jewish children that the SS used to wash with.
Both Items presented as evidence at the Nuremberg trials.
And this my be a little off topic but is there any "How to"
instruction on making lampshades. Because there are allot of people with tattoos now
and that might generate more curiosity in the Holocaust.

ZeeWolf :salute:

How to make lampshades from what...? If you're talking about what I think you are god help you.

[ZeeWolf]

How to make lampshades from what...? If you're talking about what I think you are god help you.

Hi Krauter,
I can always use God's help when talking about any aspect of the Holocaust.
As far as the the lampshade issue, I can assure you of at least one thing
if there was a lampshade made from human remains and used as
evidence against the Germans during WWII there would be documented
evidence. Unless of course it was a total made up lie.

ZeeWolf

[Krauter]

What the hell is wrong with you? Why are you looking for a "How To" guide on lampshades from human skin? How does that garner interest in the Holocaust?

Also, I'm sure that they didn't need a manuel on how to make a lampshade from human flesh.

[ZeeWolf]

What the hell is wrong with you? Why are you looking for a "How To" guide on lampshades from human skin? How does that garner interest in the Holocaust?

Also, I'm sure that they didn't need a manuel on how to make a lampshade from human flesh.

I don't know Krauter, probably the way any other aspect of the holocaust
does. But if you think about it though I am sure you will come to the same
conclusion as I did that the issue of the holocaust forced on the average American. Constantly being reminded by the enlightened among us of just
how terrible we all are for allowing such a thing to happen to those wonderful
people. Then to find out they dug up a guy, burned him, then trough him in the ocean I'm just sick of all the lies.
And then on top of that there is guys like David Erving who are treated like
the disciples of Christ for saying what they believe. The whole thing just hit a nerve Krauter.

ZeeWolf

[MH]

Hi Krauter,
I can always use God's help when talking about any aspect of the Holocaust.
As far as the the lampshade issue, I can assure you of at least one thing
if there was a lampshade made from human remains and used as
evidence against the Germans during WWII there would be documented
evidence. Unless of course it was a total made up lie.

ZeeWolf

They propably should had brought a pile of bodies like this?

http://www.english.illinois.edu/maps/holocaust/essaypics/massgrave.jpg

A mass grave in the Bergen-Belsen camp


from this to Lapshade ...nahh ...cant be.

[ZeeWolf]

They propably should had brought a pile of bodies like this?

http://www.english.illinois.edu/maps/holocaust/essaypics/massgrave.jpg

A mass grave in the Bergen-Belsen camp


from this to Lapshade ...nahh ...cant be.

Ok, I changed my mind now

[Krauter]

I'm sorry for how you feel Zeewolf, but at the moment what your saying and what your telling me right now, disgusts me.

Good day.

[ZeeWolf]

I'm sorry for how you feel Zeewolf, but at the moment what your saying and what your telling me right now, disgusts me.

Good day.

Get used to it Krauter,
Btw, maybe there is something you may find worthy of celebrating, I heard
President Obama made a change in the US military that some guys hopping
up and down about. Especially that liberal "holier than thou" crowd.

good day to you too:salute:

ZeeWolf

[NeonSamurai]

Hi NoenSamurai,
I check out your link and I found it interesting. But I remember, when I was
just a little feller of seeing those horrible pictures of what those nazis did and
couple of images (I will never forget) where of shrunken human heads and soap
made from little Jewish children that the SS used to wash with.
Both Items presented as evidence at the Nuremberg trials.

When dealing with the holocaust there are aspects of it which are indeed myth, or very isolated instances. The human soap one is one example.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniques-of-denial/soap-01.html

To date and to my knowledge there is only one example of soap made from human fat, and that this was made experimentally.. see
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/stutthof/
The "Pure Jewish Fat" soap story is myth though.

As for the lampshades and other stuff, this covers that.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniques-of-denial/clay-koch-01.html


There is however plenty of evidence that murder occurred on a massive and organized scale.

For example, an archaeological investigation of the Aktion Reinhard death camp, Belzec (warning, the contents, though non photographic, are gruesome).
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/aktion.reinhard/ftp.py?camps/aktion.reinhard//belzec/Archeological_Report

[ZeeWolf]

When dealing with the holocaust there are aspects of it which are indeed myth, or very isolated instances. The human soap one is one example.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniques-of-denial/soap-01.html

To date and to my knowledge there is only one example of soap made from human fat, and that this was made experimentally.. see
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/stutthof/
The "Pure Jewish Fat" soap story is myth though.

As for the lampshades and other stuff, this covers that.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniques-of-denial/clay-koch-01.html


There is however plenty of evidence that murder occurred on a massive and organized scale.

For example, an archaeological investigation of the Aktion Reinhard death camp, Belzec (warning, the contents, though non photographic, are gruesome).
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/aktion.reinhard/ftp.py?camps/aktion.reinhard//belzec/Archeological_Report

Thanks Neon Sam,
I read the soap and lampshade articles and I must say, the gruesome details given by the witnesses
(especially in the numerous links with the soap ) is stunning.
Then to read that these stories are lies - cast more doubt then sheds light.
Then there was the statement about the lampshades. This to lacks credibility now we have the
scientific methods to determine enormous forensic data that should be used to help identify these people.
But what is glaring with these accounts are the lack of wide spread military or government involvement that
is the foundation of the holocaust's case.
These kinds of stories are great for the physiological-warfare units that where tasked with the planned
"collective guilt" agenda on the entire population of post-war Germany but does little to bolster the
"nazi death camp industry" or death on an industrial scale, at least in my view.
Of course the images of the dead people who where certainly starved is
compelling but when you ask the question - how where the camps supplied?
The answer might be the camps rely on the railroads being the major support method.
And then when you consider the massive bombing campaign that was raging for the last 5 months of the war - why wouldn't
there be mass starvation in the camps filled with the enemies of the state.
Camps that where over capacity is some camps ten fold.
So, basically the holocaust asserts that millions where murdered in gas chambers between early42 - late 1943.
Then the US and Soviets having found millions dead in April of 1945 does not add up. I am not ready to trust
any account given that ignores the effect the allied terror bombing had at producing that insane hell that was the last months of Nazi Germany.

Zeewolf

[MH]

Thanks Neon Sam,
I read the soap and lampshade articles and I must say, the gruesome details given by the witnesses
(especially in the numerous links with the soap ) is stunning.
Then to read that these stories are lies - cast more doubt then sheds light.
Then there was the statement about the lampshades. This to lacks credibility now we have the
scientific methods to determine enormous forensic data that should be used to help identify these people.
But what is glaring with these accounts are the lack of wide spread military or government involvement that
is the foundation of the holocaust's case.
These kinds of stories are great for the physiological-warfare units that where tasked with the planned
"collective guilt" agenda on the entire population of post-war Germany but does little to bolster the
"nazi death camp industry" or death on an industrial scale, at least in my view.
Of course the images of the dead people who where certainly starved is
compelling but when you ask the question - how where the camps supplied?
The answer might be the camps rely on the railroads being the major support method.
And then when you consider the massive bombing campaign that was raging for the last 5 months of the war - why wouldn't
there be mass starvation in the camps filled with the enemies of the state.
Camps that where over capacity is some camps ten fold.
So, basically the holocaust asserts that millions where murdered in gas chambers between early42 - late 1943.
Then the US and Soviets having found millions dead in April of 1945 does not add up. I am not ready to trust
any account given that ignores the effect the allied terror bombing had at producing that insane hell that was the last months of Nazi Germany.

Zeewolf

.. read some more history.
Not just Irving's stuff..
You might also find out that there was no problem in supplying POW camps populated by British and Americans.
There had been occasional interruptions but all was relatively well there till end of the war.
The east was a place where all crazy things happened even though it was least affected by the allied bombings.

[ZeeWolf]

.. read some more history.
Not just Irving's stuff..
You might also find out that there was no problem in supplying POW camps populated by British and Americans.
There had been occasional interruptions but all was relatively well there till end of the war.
The east was a place where all crazy things happened even though it was least affected by the allied bombings.

Ok you have a point but you failed to mention the Soviet POWs. You see our
Soviet allies stated emphatically "The Soviet Union has no Prisoners of War". Stalin refused to recognize his own troops who surrendered to the
Germans. So Germany. now with close to 5 million Russian troops taken from the field of battle (as POWs) are forced to deal with them without the help of there wonderful government or the benefits of the enormous aid rendered by the international Red Cross. The German fighting forces on the eastern front had more Russian POWs feed than German troops.
And as a footnote the Red Cross was a God send and made a very interesting report that stated the death rate of displace peoples after May 1945. It said the death rate remained steady for a full year after the fall of Berlin. I will find the link to that report if you are interested and post it.
Moreover, the condition of the US and UK troops are proof there was cooperation between fighting nations. Namely Germany England and America
concerning the treatment of POWs.
But if you would read some history you would know that America had penicillin. Which was considered in that day a miracle drug. The US could have shared through the Red Cross that would have saved massive numbers of people. Also the US had the cure for the murderous disease of Typhus. The disease responsible for the greatest amount of death in the concentration camps. Typhus by the way is why the Germans used Zyclon B and needed the disinfectant gas chambers as well as the crematoriums. That is how they attempted to deal with this horrendous epidemic of typhus that raged through the camps.

ZeeWolf

[joea]

I see Subsim is staying classy. :DL

As far as Hess, I'm glad they cremated and spread his remains in the sea. There are thousands of neo nazis in Germany who rally around his grave and his memory, people outside Europe don't seem to have an idea of the extent of the problem.
Yea. :nope:

Right thing to do-look at the mayhem these people can cause.

Zeewolf you need to study a bit more-there is more research coming out just on the Soviet POW issue let alone all the material that refutes the other crap you spout.

[Stealth Hunter]

I never understood the way the Western Allies treated Hess.

He lived out his years in jail, while after only a few years, Jochen Peiper was a free man; Peiper, and many others far more deserving of long sentences than Hess.

And after he abandoned his post as Hitler's second in command to fly to Scotland to attempt to negotiate a peace settlement with the Allies no less. Makes about as much sense as General Dostler's execution of unmarked saboteurs case. I've long suspected it was more for long-term propaganda purposes than anything else. The fact that, again, Hitler's second in command would do this seems honestly, though, golden in its own right (as far as propaganda value is concerned, anyway).

[MH]

And after he abandoned his post as Hitler's second in command to fly to Scotland to attempt to negotiate a peace settlement with the Allies no less. Makes about as much sense as General Dostler's execution of unmarked saboteurs case. I've long suspected it was more for long-term propaganda purposes than anything else. The fact that, again, Hitler's second in command would do this seems honestly, though, golden in its own right (as far as propaganda value is concerned, anyway).

Maybe...or maybe a way to get rid of a man who symbolically was second to Hitler.
Party a symbol of Nazi leadership.
Even while put away in prison he remained ideological leader for Nazis.
Hess wasn't general or soldier he was spiritual leader and Hitler's puppy-sort of.
He supposedly was very fanatical person so just think what celebrity figure he could had been if set free.
You can say that he paid political price ... so what.

[MH]

loool
.

lol

[Hottentot]

There is a guy here that like to take quotes from mein kampf and misinterpret them.

I have a name too, oh master of masters, and I ask you again in your infinite wisdom to tell me, what the quotes I just gave you said. I am your humble student.

[Gerald]

Bunch of nonesense
Edit, NeonSamurai Neon, did the best job!

[ZeeWolf]

Yea. :nope:

Right thing to do-look at the mayhem these people can cause.

Zeewolf you need to study a bit more-there is more research coming out just on the Soviet POW issue let alone all the material that refutes the other crap you spout.

Listen joe'sa I do not spout,
If you have info you would like me to consider on any issue you have contention with
and where I specifically made a comment then you can provide a link or reference that
can help me become as enlighten as you or think you are. I promise you I will read it and if I am wrong will
change what I believe. Now, do you understand that?:stare:

ZeeWolf

[joegrundman]

Abodah Zarah 22a-22b . Gentiles prefer sex with cows.

they don't? :o oy vey!

[NeonSamurai]

Typhus by the way is why the Germans used Zyclon B and needed the disinfectant gas chambers as well as the crematoriums. That is how they attempted to deal with this horrendous epidemic of typhus that raged through the camps.

ZeeWolf

Yes they did use Zyclon B for fumigation purposes. The chambers they used to do that in still survive in Auschwitz-Birkenau. But they are quite different from the killing chambers used in Krema's II - V. For one thing chambers used to delouse clothing were very small, and the concentration of Zyclon B used was very high, so high that the walls of the delousing chambers are stained blue. The gas chambers in the Krema's however were very large, far too large to effectively fumigate clothing. Also the levels of Zyclon B are much much lower (though still detectable in the walls even today).

Some deniers have proposed that the gas was used to disinfect these rooms as morgues. But that is utterly absurd, as Zyclon B has zero effect on bacteria or viruses. Insects are also highly resistant to it, whereas mammals are very vulnerable to it. This is why you have the concentration differences in the two chambers.

Details about the Krema's of Auschwitz

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/camps/auschwitz/crematoria/


Also I should point out that Auschwitz was a later camp, and not purpose built entirely for extermination. Even Auschwitz-Birkenau was not a fully dedicated killing center, but part concentration camp (and part extermination camp), along with having a 'medical' center for performing experiments. There were also many other satellite camps (50 something), which were slave labor camps.

The earlier Aktion Reinhard camps however were pure purpose built killing centers consisting primarily of Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka. Combined they killed more people than Auschwitz (depending on estimates, Treblinka alone comes close to Auschwitz-Birkenau).

http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/reinhard/index.html



As for witnesses, yes witnesses can be unreliable, and yes you have to be careful with what you accept as testimony. But just because witnesses are unreliable, it does not automatically invalidate everything they say (particularly if dealing with large numbers of witnesses saying the same things). It also does not mean that the witnesses are being dishonest if there are holes or errors in their memories. Memory is a rather volatile thing, neither perimant, nor especially accurate. Memory is encoded with emotions, and is frequently incomplete. Also extreme stress can distort memory, or block memory from forming (or also make you never forget no matter how much you want to).


Anyhow, if you are serious about examining the holocaust and your own views on it. the nizkor site has everything you will need. I suggest starting with the 66 questions and answers section first, then moving on to techniques of holocaust denial.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/
http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniques-of-denial/

At the surface, a lot of holocaust denial material seems valid and logical, but do any digging and you will find their claims fall to pieces very rapidly, and that their science is not science at all.




Ok one last comment in general. One thing that always bugs me about people and the holocaust, is the assumption that 'we' could never do such a thing, and that everyone involved were inhuman monsters. Both are false. Any group of people is capable of genocide (and have done such), and most of the people involved in committing the holocaust were average every day people. The commandant of Auschwitz for example, Hoess, was an animal lover, a family man, and the like. Some later turned into monsters, due to the environment, and of course there were other more corrupt and psychopathic individuals (which these places would attract).

But the simple fact of the matter is, this could happen anywhere, and be perpetrated by anyone, be they African, Asian, European, American, Canadian or what have you. It just takes the right circumstances.

[Hottentot]

Oh noes! The master of masters got brigged! Now I will never get answer to my question! Who is behind this communist jew conspiracy?!

[NeonSamurai]

Oh yes and to the zombie that keeps coming back. Try learning how to read Hebrew before posting blatant nonsense from racist sites. I find it especially funny that you call us sheep, when you can't even post your own material or do your own research, but just copy paste a bunch of easily disprovable garbage. Baaa yourself

http://talmud.faithweb.com/

[Gerald]

Oh yes and to the zombie that keeps coming back. Try learning how to read Hebrew before posting blatant nonsense from racist sites. I find it especially funny that you call us sheep, when you can't even post your own material or do your own research, but just copy paste a bunch of easily disprovable garbage. Baaa yourself

http://talmud.faithweb.com/ Good measure Neon, to let him "cool" down, :up:

[ZeeWolf]

Yes they did use Zyclon B for fumigation purposes. The chambers they used to do that in still survive in Auschwitz-Birkenau. But they are quite different from the killing chambers used in Krema's II - V. For one thing chambers used to delouse clothing were very small, and the concentration of Zyclon B used was very high, so high that the walls of the delousing chambers are stained blue. The gas chambers in the Krema's however were very large, far too large to effectively fumigate clothing. Also the levels of Zyclon B are much much lower (though still detectable in the walls even today).

Some deniers have proposed that the gas was used to disinfect these rooms as morgues. But that is utterly absurd, as Zyclon B has zero effect on bacteria or viruses. Insects are also highly resistant to it, whereas mammals are very vulnerable to it. This is why you have the concentration differences in the two chambers.

Details about the Krema's of Auschwitz

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/camps/auschwitz/crematoria/


Also I should point out that Auschwitz was a later camp, and not purpose built entirely for extermination. Even Auschwitz-Birkenau was not a fully dedicated killing center, but part concentration camp (and part extermination camp), along with having a 'medical' center for performing experiments. There were also many other satellite camps (50 something), which were slave labor camps.

The earlier Aktion Reinhard camps however were pure purpose built killing centers consisting primarily of Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka. Combined they killed more people than Auschwitz (depending on estimates, Treblinka alone comes close to Auschwitz-Birkenau).

http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/reinhard/index.html



As for witnesses, yes witnesses can be unreliable, and yes you have to be careful with what you accept as testimony. But just because witnesses are unreliable, it does not automatically invalidate everything they say (particularly if dealing with large numbers of witnesses saying the same things). It also does not mean that the witnesses are being dishonest if there are holes or errors in their memories. Memory is a rather volatile thing, neither perimant, nor especially accurate. Memory is encoded with emotions, and is frequently incomplete. Also extreme stress can distort memory, or block memory from forming (or also make you never forget no matter how much you want to).


Anyhow, if you are serious about examining the holocaust and your own views on it. the nizkor site has everything you will need. I suggest starting with the 66 questions and answers section first, then moving on to techniques of holocaust denial.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/
http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniques-of-denial/

At the surface, a lot of holocaust denial material seems valid and logical, but do any digging and you will find their claims fall to pieces very rapidly, and that their science is not science at all.




Ok one last comment in general. One thing that always bugs me about people and the holocaust, is the assumption that 'we' could never do such a thing, and that everyone involved were inhuman monsters. Both are false. Any group of people is capable of genocide (and have done such), and most of the people involved in committing the holocaust were average every day people. The commandant of Auschwitz for example, Hoess, was an animal lover, a family man, and the like. Some later turned into monsters, due to the environment, and of course there were other more corrupt and psychopathic individuals (which these places would attract).

But the simple fact of the matter is, this could happen anywhere, and be perpetrated by anyone, be they African, Asian, European, American, Canadian or what have you. It just takes the right circumstances.

Hi NeonSamurai,
Is there punishment if I do not choose to believe the nizkor organization?
Will I suffer retaliation (whether overt or covert)? Will I be put on a list (secret or public) that will make me fair game for total financial or professional destruction? Will I be bard, hounded, persecuted or harmed in any way shape or form for rejecting to toe the line that this nizkor organization presents? Will I be disrespected, open to ridicule, derision or any kind of unkind or hateful remarks or treatment from any quarter?
By you or anyone you know who maybe waiting to ponce on me.

Sincerely
ZeeWolf

[Hottentot]

Is there punishment if I do not choose to believe the nizkor organization?
Will I suffer retaliation (whether overt or covert)? Will I be put on a list (secret or public) that will make me fair game for total financial or professional destruction? Will I be bard, hounded, persecuted or harmed in any way shape or form for rejecting to toe the line that this nizkor organization presents? Will I be disrespected, open to ridicule, derision or any kind of unkind or hateful remarks or treatment from any quarter?
By you or anyone you know who maybe waiting to ponce on me.

Most likely not. It shows poor academic behavior to laugh at the beliefs of people and I'm sure Neon is academic enough to know that. Instead, at least where I'm from, it's the lines like those you just wrote, that tend to make people public laughing stocks.

[August]

Hi NeonSamurai,
Is there punishment if I do not choose to believe the nizkor organization?
Will I suffer retaliation (whether overt or covert)? Will I be put on a list (secret or public) that will make me fair game for total financial or professional destruction? Will I be bard, hounded, persecuted or harmed in any way shape or form for rejecting to toe the line that this nizkor organization presents? Will I be disrespected, open to ridicule, derision or any kind of unkind or hateful remarks or treatment from any quarter?
By you or anyone you know who maybe waiting to ponce on me.

Sincerely
ZeeWolf

Would you be ridiculed if you tried to claim that the moon is made of green cheese? Of course you would. This is what happens when people stubbornly retain beliefs in the face of mountains of evidence to the contrary.

You are trying to excuse, if not the most, then certainly one of most evil ideologies ever created by man. The nazis are hated with good reason. If you want to defend them then expect to be hated as well.

[MH]

Hi NeonSamurai,
Is there punishment if I do not choose to believe the nizkor organization?
Will I suffer retaliation (whether overt or covert)? Will I be put on a list (secret or public) that will make me fair game for total financial or professional destruction? Will I be bard, hounded, persecuted or harmed in any way shape or form for rejecting to toe the line that this nizkor organization presents? Will I be disrespected, open to ridicule, derision or any kind of unkind or hateful remarks or treatment from any quarter?
By you or anyone you know who maybe waiting to ponce on me.

Sincerely
ZeeWolf

I really don't need you to believe anything.
What i would like is radical left stopping attacking Jews for being Zionist imperialist capitalist.
On another hand right wing telling us that we are communist that want to take over the world.
If both parties are doing that the probably Jews are doings something the right way.:rotfl2:

[NeonSamurai]

Hi NeonSamurai,
Is there punishment if I do not choose to believe the nizkor organization?
Will I suffer retaliation (whether overt or covert)? Will I be put on a list (secret or public) that will make me fair game for total financial or professional destruction? Will I be bard, hounded, persecuted or harmed in any way shape or form for rejecting to toe the line that this nizkor organization presents? Will I be disrespected, open to ridicule, derision or any kind of unkind or hateful remarks or treatment from any quarter?
By you or anyone you know who maybe waiting to ponce on me.

Sincerely
ZeeWolf

You can ultimately believe what you want. I do not know what you refer to in the second part (the anti holocaust denial laws maybe?). However if you present or promote arguments which I view to be flawed, false, or inaccurate, I will certainly engage you on those arguments. I have no problem with honest debate, the problem though is most holocaust deniers in my experience do not wish to enter into honest debate. They have an agenda they wish to promote, and it frequently hinges around antisemitism.

The holocaust is something I have done a lot of personal research into, as it is something I do not understand and found hard to believe in fully. I reference Nizkor, as their information to the best of my own knowledge is accurate and honest, but it is not my sole source of information, not by a long shot. It is however easily accessible by everyone.

Ultimately it is up to you to decide if you wish to research the subject yourself, and do so in an honest unbiased fashion.

Spewing hate speech or other such nonsense however will get you into trouble pretty fast at Subsim.


PS. for those curious, I am not Jewish. I am however a scientist and do my best to be open-minded to any argument. My training makes it very easy for me to spot the flaws and falsities in the denial literature.

[Gerald]

Why not stop at the Topic, it's hard? This Post originally had a purpose, as you well know .. so why mix in other things which are not directly related to what was intended .... and it has, as we know, punctuated by troll on the road again....:hmmm:

[ZeeWolf]

You can ultimately believe what you want. I do not know what you refer to in the second part (the anti holocaust denial laws maybe?). However if you present or promote arguments which I view to be flawed, false, or inaccurate, I will certainly engage you on those arguments. I have no problem with honest debate, the problem though is most holocaust deniers in my experience do not wish to enter into honest debate. They have an agenda they wish to promote, and it frequently hinges around antisemitism.

The holocaust is something I have done a lot of personal research into, as it is something I do not understand and found hard to believe in fully. I reference Nizkor, as their information to the best of my own knowledge is accurate and honest, but it is not my sole source of information, not by a long shot. It is however easily accessible by everyone.

Ultimately it is up to you to decide if you wish to research the subject yourself, and do so in an honest unbiased fashion.

Spewing hate speech or other such nonsense however will get you into trouble pretty fast at Subsim.


PS. for those curious, I am not Jewish. I am however a scientist and do my best to be open-minded to any argument. My training makes it very easy for me to spot the flaws and falsities in the denial literature.

That fine NeonSam,
I was reading the page on Fred Leuchter and his credibility and on his testimony. Then I came across and read this page:
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/l/leuchter-fred/life-after-persecution.html

I became outraged how this man was treated. There was nothing I read
that would even begin to justify this mans treatment no matter what he
said. Whether under oath on the witness stand or in public. If this Nizkor
organization is even remotely connected to those who carry out this
treatment on a man or condone such behavior or anyone who this crowd
denounces as a "Holocaust Denier" it totally undermines them as far as I
am concerned.
You see I became a Christian after I heard that the disciples of Christ
where persecuted after the death and resurrection of Jesus. And their
crime - was saying publicly "Jesus rose from the dead!" No body I thought
would endure that level of persecution the disciples faced for a lie.
Therefore I hope you can understand my point here with Mr. Leuchter

Sincerely,
ZeeWolf

[krashkart]

Why not stop at the Topic, it's hard? This Post originally had a purpose, as you well know .. so why mix in other things which are not directly related to what was intended .... and it has, as we know, punctuated by troll on the road again....:hmmm:

Good point, Vendor.

[Betonov]

Why not dig out all the nazi's and throw their reamins in the middle of the Atlantic. If the skinheads want to make a pilgrimage, let them swim there

[Oberon]

Hate is hate. Be it hate for Jews, hate for Nazis, hate for holocaust deniers, it's all hate and it's all counter-productive and just leads to more hate and suffering. I'm not saying forgive and forget, nor am I saying don't make sure it never happens again, but there has to be a different way than to persecute people because of their beliefs, be it Jewish or Neo-Nazi.

[ZeeWolf]

Most likely not. It shows poor academic behavior to laugh at the beliefs of people and I'm sure Neon is academic enough to know that. Instead, at least where I'm from, it's the lines like those you just wrote, that tend to make people public laughing stocks.

Ok fine, I am from the USA. And if I am a laughing stock from where you are from please stay there. I am no angel of light nor am I a genus academic like so many (I find) pretend to be. But I do have a back bone, therefore denounce me as one refusing to cow like whimpering dog for his masters approval.

ZeeWolf

[ZeeWolf]

Would you be ridiculed if you tried to claim that the moon is made of green cheese? Of course you would. This is what happens when people stubbornly retain beliefs in the face of mountains of evidence to the contrary.

You are trying to excuse, if not the most, then certainly one of most evil ideologies ever created by man. The nazis are hated with good reason. If you want to defend them then expect to be hated as well.

August where I am from, it is common for those who hate nazis as much you
do to also hate heterosexuals too. And yes they hate nazis for good reason.
As much as they hate anything or anyone who call into question their sick perverted behavior.

ZeeWolf

[Hottentot]

Ok fine, I am from the USA. And if I am a laughing stock from where you are from please stay there.

My, are we sensitive today, dearie. Didn't even say "Hello Hottentot". Tsk, tsk.

I am no angel of light nor am I a genus academic like so many (I find) pretend to be.

What happened to your "45 years of study"?

I'm a history major. I'm not a genius, nor an angel, but being academic in this subject is not something I need to pretend.

But I do have a back bone, therefore denounce me as one refusing to cow like whimpering dog for his masters approval.Did you hear the whistling? That was the point flying way over your head. So I'll put this in simple terms: you are not getting laughed at for what you believe in. You are getting laughed at for playing a martyr and not answering the arguments made against your case.

[ZeeWolf]

I really don't need you to believe anything.
What i would like is radical left stopping attacking Jews for being Zionist imperialist capitalist.
On another hand right wing telling us that we are communist that want to take over the world.
If both parties are doing that the probably Jews are doings something the right way.:rotfl2:

Oh, I see, you want the entire world see you as you think you are. As the
"All knowing, all caring Holy one's of Israel " totally above even a hint of sin. Right!
Please remember, it was God All Mighty that utterly destroyed the temple
in 70 AD and used the Romans as an interment of HIS wrath. And do not
forget, God left that wailing wall for a reason.


ZeeWolf

[joegrundman]

August where I am from, it is common for those who hate nazis as much you
do to also hate heterosexuals too. And yes they hate nazis for good reason.
As much as they hate anything or anyone who call into question their sick perverted behavior.

ZeeWolf

dude, if you are going to argue an unpopular minority viewpoint, then it is important that you keep your balance, and also to know when to bow out gracefully.

[joegrundman]

Oh, I see, you want the entire world see you as you think you are. As the
"All knowing, all caring Holy one's of Israel " totally above even a hint of sin. Right!
Please remember, it was God All Mighty that utterly destroyed the temple
in 70 AD and used the Romans as an interment of HIS wrath. And do not
forget, God left that wailing wall for a reason.


ZeeWolf

woops, too late!

[NeonSamurai]

That fine NeonSam,
I was reading the page on Fred Leuchter and his credibility and on his testimony. Then I came across and read this page:
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/l/leuchter-fred/life-after-persecution.html

I became outraged how this man was treated. There was nothing I read
that would even begin to justify this mans treatment no matter what he
said. Whether under oath on the witness stand or in public. If this Nizkor
organization is even remotely connected to those who carry out this
treatment on a man or condone such behavior or anyone who this crowd
denounces as a "Holocaust Denier" it totally undermines them as far as I
am concerned.

Well for one thing I am very wary as to the veracity of anything coming from the IHR, and claims made by Fred Leuchter. He has already been proven to be a liar and a fraud in court. So his claims of persecution are also suspect. I have no doubt that he has not always been treated in the nicest fashion by people. But then he is associated with a known publisher of hate material (which that comes from also), and from all external evidence appears to be racist/antisemitic himself. So there will be people who will take a strong dislike to him. He is also certainly strongly motivated to lie about being persecuted, as it garners him attention and sympathy and helps spread his message.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/l/leuchter-fred/leuchter-05.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/l/leuchter-fred/leuchter-0195.html

About the IHR
http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/ihr/ihr-faq-01.html


One thing I will point out, that you may have noticed, is that Nizkor publishes everything, including the holocaust denial material. You cannot say the same for any of the denial sites. This is the difference between honest discussion and debate, and what most holocaust deniers do, which is spread their own agenda (which unsurprisingly is hate related).

Like I said, I have no problem with open honest debate. I also prefer to refute claims rather than simply try to stifle them. Hence why I left the utter garbage posted by 'the_truth', rather than censoring it. I do however have little tolerance for blatant hate speech.

I am not trying to cow you or anything either, and I am only master of myself. I present rational arguments to your points when I disagree.

You see I became a Christian after I heard that the disciples of Christ
where persecuted after the death and resurrection of Jesus. And their
crime - was saying publicly "Jesus rose from the dead!" No body I thought
would endure that level of persecution the disciples faced for a lie.
Therefore I hope you can understand my point here with Mr. Leuchter

Sincerely,
ZeeWolf

People do all the time though, on matters that they take on faith. All religions and organizations have their martyrs. People also do similar for political views (look at all the ardent nazi's, or the SS, many of whom fought to the death for their views). People are capable of an infinite level of self delusion in the end, and can latch on to anything no matter how absurd it appears to others.

I am not saying, though, that Jesus is or is not a lie, as I try not to stray too far into maters of religion. At least as long as said religion does not try to impose itself on me, or try to take away my own rights.

P.S. want to talk about persecution, take a look at the level of persecution many atheists put up with, even in this day and age. :03:

[Sailor Steve]

I see Subsim is staying classy. :DL

As far as Hess, I'm glad they cremated and spread his remains in the sea. There are thousands of neo nazis in Germany who rally around his grave and his memory, people outside Europe don't seem to have an idea of the extent of the problem.
Oh look, our favorite troll is back again, and doesn't even try to disguise himself.:rotfl2:

[ZeeWolf]

My, are we sensitive today, dearie. Didn't even say "Hello Hottentot". Tsk, tsk.



What happened to your "45 years of study"?

I'm a history major. I'm not a genius, nor an angel, but being academic in this subject is not something I need to pretend.

Did you hear the whistling? That was the point flying way over your head. So I'll put this in simple terms: you are not getting laughed at for what you believe in. You are getting laughed at for playing a martyr and not answering the arguments made against your case.

OK Hello Hottentot!
Look this is not a profession for me. And the 45 years of study as a novice with a passion for all things WWII. And I am no martyr and do not hear the whistle of points only at times the hiss of hypocrisy.
The case here is why some old dead guy gets dug up, burned, then tossed
in the ocean by the all knowing all tolerant crowd.
Basically Hottentot I am just an average American to guys like you.

ZeeWolf

[Tribesman]

Neon, I do wish I was articulate enough and calm enought to take the time to put down holocaust deniers and loonies in the same detailed manner as you manage.
But I ain't , so Zeewolf you thick nazi, you are about as christian as bhuddas left toe nail clipping and are as about as intelligent as that famous liar David Irving

[Sailor Steve]

To put it a little more circumspectly, it is my observation that people who insist on this conspiracy or that ususally have an agenda, one which they cannot see beyond, and which ties up their entire lives. Also, they tend to believe their conspiract with a religious ferver. Sometimes they couch it in reasonable terms, but they worship the idea just the same, and there is no room for any possible variation. It's all they have.

So I have to agree with Tribesman in the assessment that you are almost certainly a modern Nazi, and need the evil Jews to blame everything on, because the thought that the original Nazis might actually have been evil is just too much to bear. Trust me, if there was any real evidence that the Jews as a group are trying to control everything it would be apparent to everyone, not just the select few.

[MH]

Oh, I see, you want the entire world see you as you think you are. As the
"All knowing, all caring Holy one's of Israel " totally above even a hint of sin. Right!
Please remember, it was God All Mighty that utterly destroyed the temple
in 70 AD and used the Romans as an interment of HIS wrath. And do not
forget, God left that wailing wall for a reason.


ZeeWolf

Almost like a quote from mein kamf and no "final solution" used.
Do You make Hitler look as good christian and the hand of god?

[Hottentot]

OK Hello Hottentot!

Hello, ZeeWolf :DL

Look this is not a profession for me. And the 45 years of study as a novice with a passion for all things WWII. And I am no martyr and do not hear the whistle of points only at times the hiss of hypocrisy.

Really? Then I must have imagined you answering Neon's articulated and argumented post with sarcastic questions about if you are going to get persecuted or being put on a list. You also asked: "Will I be disrespected, open to ridicule, derision or any kind of unkind or hateful remarks or treatment from any quarter? By you or anyone you know who maybe waiting to ponce on me". That was what I was responding to.

The case here is why some old dead guy gets dug up, burned, then tossed in the ocean by the all knowing all tolerant crowd.

A good question. But how does the last 8 or so pages of this thread relate to that?

Basically Hottentot I am just an average American to guys like you.

A fascinating idea.

[ZeeWolf]

woops, too late!

I am doing my best to lean joegrundman, I just feel ganged up on.

ZeeWolf

[Tribesman]

I just feel ganged up on.


Its just so unfair, it is not like anyone could simply think of a couple of million reasons why a holocaust denier could be ridiculed.

[Sailor Steve]

I am doing my best to lean joegrundman, I just feel ganged up on.

ZeeWolf
Well, look at the thread. It started as a post about Hess, was developing into a discussion of why he got worse treatment than other Nazis, and then an old troll turned it into a "Nazis were really the good guys" tangent, and then you joined in supporting his claims. When people disagreed you posted a link to a video of a man most of us consider a crackpot, and you keep insisting that he has the only truth. What exactly do you expect? Reasonable discussion? You haven't given any, why should you get any?

[ZeeWolf]

Well for one thing I am very wary as to the veracity of anything coming from the IHR, and claims made by Fred
Leuchter. He has already been proven to be a liar and a fraud in court. So his claims of persecution are also suspect. I have no doubt that he has not always been treated in the nicest fashion by people. But then he is associated with a known publisher of hate material (which that comes from also), and from all external evidence appears to be racist/antisemitic himself. So there will be people who will take a strong dislike to him. He is also certainly strongly motivated to lie about being persecuted, as it garners him attention and sympathy and helps spread his message.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/l/leuchter-fred/leuchter-05.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/l/leuchter-fred/leuchter-0195.html

About the IHR
http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/ihr/ihr-faq-01.html


One thing I will point out, that you may have noticed, is that Nizkor publishes everything, including the holocaust denial material. You cannot say the same for any of the denial sites. This is the difference between honest discussion and debate, and what most holocaust deniers do, which is spread their own agenda (which unsurprisingly is hate related).

Like I said, I have no problem with open honest debate. I also prefer to refute claims rather than simply try to stifle them. Hence why I left the utter garbage posted by 'the_truth', rather than censoring it. I do however have little tolerance for blatant hate speech.

I am not trying to cow you or anything either, and I am only master of myself. I present rational arguments to your points when I disagree.



People do all the time though, on matters that they take on faith. All religions and organizations have their martyrs. People also do similar for political views (look at all the ardent nazi's, or the SS, many of whom fought to the death for their views). People are capable of an infinite level of self delusion in the end, and can latch on to anything no matter how absurd it appears to others.

I am not saying, though, that Jesus is or is not a lie, as I try not to stray too far into maters of religion. At least as long as said religion does not try to impose itself on me, or try to take away my own rights.

P.S. want to talk about persecution, take a look at the level of persecution many atheists put up with, even in this day and age. :03:

Well Fred Leuchter certainly has my sympathy. I would like to know if the
accusation of him being proven a lie while under oath was followed with the
prosecution for perjury? I know that this is a big deal when someone other
the member of the anointed class lies in court.

As far as any evidence for him being denounced as a racist/antisemite I found zip.

ZeeWolf

[Sailor Steve]

the anointed class
And there's why you get no respect.

[NeonSamurai]

I would suggest that everyone back off from the trolling. I am aware that this topic is sensitive to many people, but I do not feel that the trolling is accomplishing anything (and will get you into trouble if you go too far).

If you seriously wish to debate this ZeeWolf, by all means do so and I will do my best to keep the trolling to a minimum. Present your arguments and I will offer my counters.

[ZeeWolf]

Neon, I do wish I was articulate enough and calm enought to take the time to put down holocaust deniers and loonies in the same detailed manner as you manage.
But I ain't , so Zeewolf you thick nazi, you are about as christian as bhuddas left toe nail clipping and are as about as intelligent as that famous liar David Irving

Thank God I can enjoy the assurance of my salvation no matter what temporary Godless political Joan of Arch may howl.

Bless you my child,

ZeeWolf

[Gerald]

http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/6015/redolfhessmontage.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/594/redolfhessmontage.jpg/)

[ZeeWolf]

Well, look at the thread. It started as a post about Hess, was developing into a discussion of why he got worse treatment than other Nazis, and then an old troll turned it into a "Nazis were really the good guys" tangent, and then you joined in supporting his claims. When people disagreed you posted a link to a video of a man most of us consider a crackpot, and you keep insisting that he has the only truth. What exactly do you expect? Reasonable discussion? You haven't given any, why should you get any?

Well Sailor Steve, you do have a good point but when your dodging bullets
your focus can get awfully narrow so to speak :shucks:

ZeeWolf

[joegrundman]

Almost like a quote from mein kamf and no "final solution" used.
Do You make Hitler look as good christian and the hand of god?


it is not at all like Mein Kampf which draws only indirectly from Christian anti-semitism, it is however a christian viewpoint of very long standing that only recently (20th century) has gone out of favour

[ZeeWolf]

Almost like a quote from mein kamf and no "final solution" used.
Do You make Hitler look as good christian and the hand of god?

No more or no less than Titus!

ZeeWolf

[NeonSamurai]

Well Fred Leuchter certainly has my sympathy. I would like to know if the
accusation of him being proven a lie while under oath was followed with the
prosecution for perjury? I know that this is a big deal when someone other
the member of the anointed class lies in court.

As far as any evidence for him being denounced as a racist/antisemite I found zip.

ZeeWolf


You didn't read any of the links I provided. He is associated with the IHR (his claims of persecution come from their journal).
http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/ihr/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_for_Historical_Review

Not to mention his association with this guy.
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/z/zundel-ernst/

Oh and yes he was prosecuted for various things.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Leuchter

[MH]

it is not at all like Mein Kampf which draws only indirectly from Christian anti-semitism, it is however a christian viewpoint of very long standing that only recently (20th century) has gone out of favour

Sorry it was a Hitler's speech


"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942

[MH]

No more or no less than Titus!

ZeeWolf

So whats your issue with holocaust?.
Just admit it happened and view it as Gods punishment.
Simple clean solution....

[joegrundman]

Sorry it was a Hitler's speech

Ah. very good source you use.

[Tribesman]

Thank God I can enjoy the assurance of my salvation no matter what temporary Godless political Joan of Arch may howl.

#
I refer you to my post yesterday where all that really needed to be said about your idiocy was said.

nazi apologists , they wouild be a funny joke if they were not so sick.

You didn't read any of the links I provided
Now that is funny. honestly if he had read your links it wouldn't make any difference. no evidence exists , it is all a marxist jewish capitalist conspiracy, the evidence would be on the internet if the global ZOG hadn't invented the internet to stop the internet therfore there is no evidence and all the evidence is fake.
Did you know hitler like dogs, if you don't like hitler you hate dogs , why do you hate innocent puppies so much?

[ZeeWolf]

You didn't read any of the links I provided. He is associated with the IHR (his claims of persecution come from their journal).
http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/ihr/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_for_Historical_Review

Not to mention his association with this guy.
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/z/zundel-ernst/

Oh and yes he was prosecuted for various things.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Leuchter

Ok, I'll check it out again. But expecting me dismiss his account because a web site that has been denounced and well into the destroy phase hosts
his testimony does not effect what is being revealed by him.
Also I found some more Youtube videos of him that I would like to check out too.

Also the Zundel association means nothing:
paste from wikipedia:
'Leuchter was recommended to Zündel by Bill Armontrout, warden for Missouri State Penitentiary in Jefferson City, Missouri (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_City,_Missouri). In his capacity as warden'

I find it more trouble for your case that Leuchter is a Havard University
Alumni then any professional collaboration he had with Zundel

ZeeWolf

[ZeeWolf]

So whats your issue with holocaust?.
Just admit it happened and view it as Gods punishment.
Simple clean solution....

Your question should not be about my issue with the holocaust but your
issue with the Law of Moses. My question for you is - if you where ever
accused of being a Jew would there be even a thread of evidence to convict
or spare you from the sword of Elijah?

ZeeWolf

[ZeeWolf]

And there's why you get no respect.

What ever you say Sailor.

[ZeeWolf]

#
I refer you to my post yesterday where all that really needed to be said about your idiocy was said.

nazi apologists , they wouild be a funny joke if they were not so sick.


Now that is funny. honestly if he had read your links it wouldn't make any difference. no evidence exists , it is all a marxist jewish capitalist conspiracy, the evidence would be on the internet if the global ZOG hadn't invented the internet to stop the internet therfore there is no evidence and all the evidence is fake.
Did you know hitler like dogs, if you don't like hitler you hate dogs , why do you hate innocent puppies so much?

Are you Ok man, it sounds like you may need a Dr. Phil moment :yep:
CALLING DR. HOTENTOT!

ZeeWolf :salute:

[Tribesman]

Are you Ok man,
I am fine.
Do you need some help finding what passes for a brain in your vacant skull?
Nazi apologists and holocaust deniers, you wouldn't believe it was possible for such people to exist if you din't see them writing it.

[Sledgehammer427]

well, after 13 pages of bickering, I'm ready to say that I have nothing to add.

I'm sure some thought and deliberation went into Hess' exhumation, and the cause is just enough.

Off I go. :salute:

EDIT: I lied, Hottentot, The direct quotes from Mein Kampf are greatly appreciated.

[MH]

Your question should not be about my issue with the holocaust but your
issue with the Law of Moses. My question for you is - if you where ever
accused of being a Jew would there be even a thread of evidence to convict
or spare you from the sword of Elijah?

ZeeWolf

So who is or was Elijah in your opinion????
Are you sure you are not worshiping the great deceiver?
(don't worry about my Jewishnes)

[ZeeWolf]

I am fine.
Do you need some help finding what passes for a brain in your vacant skull?
Nazi apologists and holocaust deniers, you wouldn't believe it was possible for such people to exist if you din't see them writing it.

Your neo Marxist terms of abuse only work on men who fear what you represent.
This kind of brutality that causes so much grief and despair in men who do not
understand these tactics need only have to realize that you have became exactly
what you claim to hate. Every single accusation your insist on bludgeoning me is
designed to silence. And part of the " Identify, Denounce and Destroy" program that
sent millions to their deaths in Soviet gulags. Stalin would be proud you.
The consistent ignoring of the Soviet mass murder while destroying those who
would dare even question the holocaust is probably the greatest reason I have,
to believe you and your ilk will fail and this reign of terror/ witch hunt will be exposed
for what it is.

ZeeWolf

[Oberon]

There is not enough facepalms in the multiverse for this thread...

Please...someone...just close this. Close it now...before this degenerate nonsense from left and right wings descends into new lows.

You're both as bad as each other. :nope:

[ZeeWolf]

There is not enough facepalms in the multiverse for this thread...

Please...someone...just close this. Close it now...before this degenerate nonsense from left and right wings descends into new lows.

You're both as bad as each other. :nope:

Come on Oberon can't you just fly above it all on your angel wings :DL

[MH]

Your neo Marxist terms of abuse only work on men who fear what you represent.
This kind of brutality that causes so much grief and despair in men who do not
understand these tactics need only have to realize that you have became exactly
what you claim to hate. Every single accusation your insist on bludgeoning me is
designed to silence. And part of the " Identify, Denounce and Destroy" program that
sent millions to their deaths in Soviet gulags. Stalin would be proud you.
The consistent ignoring of the Soviet mass murder while destroying those who
would dare even question the holocaust is probably the greatest reason I have,
to believe you and your ilk will fail and this reign of terror/ witch hunt will be exposed
for what it is.

ZeeWolf

Had family member who spend time in gulag.
Arrested by Jewish communists-as mr Irving says.
Stalin regime is well documented in history books if you care to look.

[Tribesman]

Your neo Marxist terms of abuse only work on men who fear what you represent
neo marxist:har::har::har::har::har::har:
its the jews I tell ya , its all a global conspiracy...well jews and freemasons and maybe them black fellas too though I wouldn't put it past the chinese either as they are shifty and may even be jewish.
there was no holocaust, David Irvinng is still a man of credibility and zundel isn't a hate filled brainless bigot:rotfl2:

The consistent ignoring of the Soviet mass murder
But that isn't true, the only evidence was a single badly written document in crayon on the back of a bus ticket that was printed next tuesday as the jews have time travel as well as the media and public transport , it is scientificly proven that there was no soviet union as there are not enough letters in the alphabetti spaghetti as a heinz conspiracy also took all the letter S out in an effort to stop children learning of the glorious SS and their tight fit bodies and nice eyes in leather and in doing so removed the oviet from hitory together with the wi and the lovak along with the irih wahili and uede....

[ZeeWolf]

Had family member who spend time in gulag.
Arrested by Jewish communists-as mr Irving says.
Stalin regime is well documented in history books if you care to look.

I understand that about the history being documented MH. But I have yet
to hear anything about peoples lives being ruined for not believing it- have you?

[Tribesman]

Stalin regime is well documented in history books if you care to look.
No its not true, looking is banned, there are no books.
Stalin was nice and had a cuddly mustache and ran a marathon around the world in record time backwards with no shoes just to help the poor little children in tibet who got born without arms because the evil jews stole them in the womb

[ZeeWolf]

neo marxist:har::har::har::har::har::har:
its the jews I tell ya , its all a global conspiracy...well jews and freemasons and maybe them black fellas too though I wouldn't put it past the chinese either as they are shifty and may even be jewish.
there was no holocaust, David Irvinng is still a man of credibility and zundel isn't a hate filled brainless bigot:rotfl2:


But that isn't true, the only evidence was a single badly written document in crayon on the back of a bus ticket that was printed next tuesday as the jews have time travel as well as the media and public transport , it is scientificly proven that there was no soviet union as there are not enough letters in the alphabetti spaghetti as a heinz conspiracy also took all the letter S out in an effort to stop children learning of the glorious SS and their tight fit bodies and nice eyes in leather and in doing so removed the oviet from hitory together with the wi and the lovak along with the irih wahili and uede....

Lightened your attitude a little bit huh Troubledman! :haha:

[ZeeWolf]

No its not true, looking is banned, there are no books.
Stalin was nice and had a cuddly mustache and ran a marathon around the world in record time backwards with no shoes just to help the poor little children in tibet who got born without arms because the evil jews stole them in the womb


CALLING DR. HOTTENTOT!

ZeeWolf

[MH]

I understand that about the history being documented MH. But I have yet
to hear anything about peoples lives being ruined for not believing it- have you?

I haven't heard of anyone seriously denying that besides soviet regime.
Well...actually Khrushchev tried to do some justice with Stalin after he took power.
In general though Russians seem somewhat shy about Stalin.
Maybe in part because the contradiction represents to Russia.
On one side he is a savior on another criminal.

[ZeeWolf]

I haven't heard of anyone seriously denying that besides soviet regime.
Well...actually Khrushchev tried to do some justice with Stalin after he took power.
In general though Russians seem somewhat shy about Stalin.
Maybe in part because the contradiction represents to Russia.
On one side he is a savior on another criminal.

Yeah but the point I wanted to make would be reveal the utter hypocrisy
in those who want blood from those like Fred Leuchter but are less than
concerned about what people think or say about the behavior of the Soviets

[Tribesman]

Yeah but the point I wanted to make would be reveal the utter hypocrisy

The only measurable hypocristy was if you could find sufficient people that were dumb enough to deny stalins atrocities, there is certainly no shortage of people who are dumb enough to deny the nazi atrocities.
So all you need is to find more dumb people to stand up on the scales with you and see which way the balance goes

[ZeeWolf]

The only measurable hypocristy was if you could find sufficient people that were dumb enough to deny stalins atrocities, there is certainly no shortage of people who are dumb enough to deny the nazi atrocities.
So all you need is to find more dumb people to stand up on the scales with you and see which way the balance goes

Look Troubledman,
Not everyone is born a all knowing, all caring genus like you:know:.
Most of us are born not knowing our hand from our left, of course that would not apply to
wonderful human being like your self but I am sorry to say it's true.
To call a man like Fred Leuchter dumb I would like to know what you would
call a man who was not a Harvard Alumni.

[Onkel Neal]

Closing this thread now.