Oil Crisis Temp Fix?

[Anthony W.]

As much as I DO NOT believe in the whole "oil crisis", I think I may have a solution that'll please both sides of the aisle.

About 10 years ago, US Navy dive crews drained the WWII USS Mississinewa wreck of 2.1 million gallons of oil.

Now I wonder, how much oil could be salvaged by draining the shipwrecks? If 2.1 million gallons were stored in just 1 tanker, how much could be in all the others?

This would not only increase our oil reserves, but would avert the possible future problem of oil leaking from them.

Your thoughts?

[Tribesman]

Your thoughts?
:har:Maths.

[AVGWarhawk]

Something like 21 million barrels are used a day. Far from that at 2.1 pumped from one wrecked vessel. How may vessels are full of oil to this degree sitting on the ocean floor?

[Madox58]

What would the recovery costs be even if there were enuff Ships with
resources to make the idea plauseable?
I'd think the idea is about like bailing out an AirCraft Carrier with a Coffee Cup.

Nice try maybe, but it's not going to save the Ship.

[Anthony W.]

What would the recovery costs be even if there were enuff Ships with
resources to make the idea plauseable?
I'd think the idea is about like bailing out an AirCraft Carrier with a Coffee Cup.

Nice try maybe, but it's not going to save the Ship.

No, but it could temporarily free up some gas money in the military budget.

The entire operation was actually pretty straight forward. 4 dive teams went down and drilled into the tanks, then a tanker hooked hoses to it and pumped it out.

[Tribesman]

I'd think the idea is about like bailing out an AirCraft Carrier with a Coffee Cup.

More like a coffee cup with a big hole in it.

[Tribesman]

No, but it could temporarily free up some gas money in the military budget.

:har: Maths again.
If you remove the pittance the watered oil fetched in Singapore when it was sold for recycling from the cost of the very expensive operation then how much of a massive loss are you left with on the project?

The entire operation was actually pretty straight forward. 4 dive teams went down and drilled into the tanks, then a tanker hooked hoses to it and pumped it out.
Could someone be any further from the truth?

[Platapus]

About 10 years ago, US Navy dive crews drained the WWII USS Mississinewa wreck of 2.1 million gallons of oil.

How many gallons of fuel did the Navy use in this recovery operation?

[mookiemookie]

Something like 21 million barrels are used a day. Far from that at 2.1 pumped from one wrecked vessel. How may vessels are full of oil to this degree sitting on the ocean floor?

To put it even more in perspective, there are 42 gallons in 1 bbl of crude. 2.1 million gallons in this tanker equals 50,000 barrels of oil. To make it a nice round number, let's assume we as a nation use 20 million barrels a day.

50,000 bbls / 20,000,000 = 0.0025

That's one quarter of one percent of America's one day oil useage.

[AVGWarhawk]

The draining and pumping of the oil from the vessel was more than likely just a enviromental protection deal.

[Buddahaid]

Not to mention it's likely bunker oil and nearly solid.

[Feuer Frei!]

let's assume we as a nation use 20 million barrels a day.
You're actually not far off, if you take 2009's stat into consideration:
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2174rank.html

While we are on the topic of salvage operations, costs and thereof, i found this interesting read about salvage operations by Royal navy frigates btw 1950-164:
http://www.naval-history.net/xGM-Ops-SalvageOps1950-64.htm

Here's something even more OnTopic, however, dated 1988, but it gives us some idea of what sort of policies and procedures, incl. costs go with salvage operations:
http://www.msc.navy.mil/instructions/pdf/m54202f.pdf

PLEASE FORGIVE ME FOR THE INCOMING WALL OF TEXT, but, nonetheless ontopic and really a interesting read (i hope)

Take out of that:
The following are excerpts from NAVSEAINST 4740.8, Salvage, Recovery and
Open Sea Spill Response Programs, dated 24 Jul 87. The selected excerpts describe
terms, conditions, costs, and policies with respect to Navy salvage support available to MSCThe Navy provides salvage services to ships and aircraft under terms and conditions which
depend upon the ownership and status of the ship or aircraft requiring the service. Terms and
conditions for salvage services to United States naval ships and aircraft, ships of the Military
Sealift Command, and commercial ships and aircraft are delineated in Section 2.Military Sealift Command (MSC) ships fall into several categories. The category affects the
terms and conditions under which salvage operations are undertaken:
a. MSC Commissioned or In-Service Ships are Public Vessels of the United States.
Charges for salvage services rendered to them by naval forces are limited to out-of-pocket
expenses including fuel and water. If contractor services are provided, full contract rates are
charged.
b. MSC Contract Operated Ships are government owned ships with contractor crews.
When hull and machinery insurance is carried, salvage services are provided on the same basis
for MSC Chartered Ships. When hull and machinery insurance is not carried, salvage services,
are provided on the same basis as for MSC Commissioned Ships.
c. MSC Chartered Ships are required to provide full normal marine insurance. When
salvage services are provided to these ships by naval forces or under Navy contract, full per diem and out-of-pocket charges are made.a. Ships, Tugs and Floating Craft. Effective 1 June 1987 and subject to the rules set forth
herein, the following rates per 24 hour day or fraction thereof are established for salvage
(1) Salvage Ship (ATS) $25,000
(2) Salvage Ship (ARS) $23,000
(3) Fleet Tug (ATF) $21,000
(4) Fleet Tug (T-ATF 166 class)
with salvage crew $20,000
without salvage crew $18,000
(5) Rescue Ship (ASR)
with saturation diving system $24,000
without saturation diving system $22,000
(6) Large Tug (YTB) $ 5,000
(7) Medium Tug (YTM) $ 4,000
(8) Small Tug (TYL) $ 3,000
(9) Floating Crane (200 ton) (YD) $ 7,500
(10) Diving Tender (YDT) $ 3,000These rates set forth include the ship or craft, her operating crew, and the towing hawser.
Rates for types of ships and craft other than listed will be established on a case basis. Per diem
charges normally begin when the assisting ship leaves her berth or is diverted from her voyage
and end when she returns to her berth or resumes her voyage upon the completion of the salvage Operationb. Salvage and spill response equipment. When portable salvage, oil and hazardous
substance spill response or special equipment is used, a per diem charge is made for that
equipment based upon equivalent commercial rates. If commercial rates are not available, the
charge will be established on a case basis. Lost or damaged equipment is billed at replacement
or repair cost.
c. Billing on a per diem basis for salvage operations involving privately owned vessels is
solely a matter of policy. The Navy does not waive nor surrender the right to submit a salvage
bonus claim. Per diem billing is made on the express condition that the bills be paid promptly
and in full. Until receipt of payment, all salvage rights are reserved, including the right to
withdraw the per diem billing without notice and present a claim on a salvage bonus basis.
d. Because of the wide variety of equipment and skills used in salvage, search and recovery
and oil and hazardous substance spill response efforts, it is impractical to detail the charges for
each type of equipment or skill that may be required. The Supervisor of Salvage is guided by,
but is not required to adhere to, the Navy Comptroller Manual (NAVSO P-1000) when
determining charges for equipment for which there are no published rates. This manual also
provides a basis for computing statistical charges for services to public vessels and aircraft.Out of Pocket Costs:
Charges for salvage operations on privately owned vessels may include, in addition to the
per diem charges for ships and equipment, additional charges for certain out-of-pocket costs.
Out-of-pocket costs are defined as direct and documentable costs associated with providing a salvage service at a particular time and place. They may include:
a. Consumable materials, including lube oil, expended in the course of the operation for
the operation.
b. Fuel consumed and water (if any) procured.
c. Equipment lost or destroyed, damaged, or expended.
d. Repairs to equipment or ships directly attributable to the salvage operation.
e. Navy Industrial Fund charges.
f. Travel and per diem costs.
g. Civil Service employee overtime.
h. Transportation of Things (TOT).
i. Rental of commercial equipment.
j. Other specific procurements and direct charges.
Out of pocket costs may be documented by logs showing equipment usage and personnel
employment, copies of rate sheets, leases, agreements, travel costs, survey sheets, invoices, etc.
Where per diem charges are made for salvage ships and floating craft, there is normally no
additional charge for the first two items of out-of-pocket costs listed. Fuel, lube oil, water and
consumables expended in the ordinary course of operation of the salvage vessel are included in the per diem charges.Contractor Charges:
Contractor charges and fees for a salvage operation may be passed directly to the
customer. The contracts are administered by the Supervisor of Salvage and include rate
information. The Supervisor of Salvage will decide if the costs are to be passed on and will pass
them directly without addition to the organization requiring the service. Contractor charges are
documented by contract rates, invoices and supporting documents.Personnel:
Rates for additional personnel such as salvage masters, lift masters, Mobile Diving and
Salvage units and extra diving crews will be as established in the Navy Comptroller Manual and
based on military and civil service pay scales. Travel, per diem, and overtime expenses will be
charged at cost.Charges for Navy salvage services are independent of the values involved and of the
success of the operation. The user will be billed in the full amount, regardless of whether the
vessel is salved or lost, and irrespective of the ultimate success or failure of the salvage
operation.SOURCE (http://www.msc.navy.mil/instructions/pdf/m54202f.pdf)

[Tribesman]

Feuer Frei.
From your wall of text....
Lets play numbers on costs .
If you ignore all the previous attempts at diving and all the previous operations on the wreck once located and all the additional cost in both planning and setting up setting up stage of the recovery operation...ignoring all that huge expense plus of course ignoring about two hundred other major costs on the operation itself...
So taking the cost of just 1 salvage ship, two tugs and two ocean going barges on the job but without taking their travelling costs into account.
How many more dollars were spent than the thimble full of mixed oils sold for?

The draining and pumping of the oil from the vessel was more than likely just a enviromental protection deal.
Spot on, any salvage operation is just a matter of course .....if it is going to show any profit.
Many oil recoveries from vessels are just a standard everyday proceedure....if costs and risk allow.
However, the only reason this very costly operation was undertaken was because the environmental damage on the lagoon would have been immense and the surveys showed that earlier diving operations to fix the leaks were not going to be sufficient do the job

[Feuer Frei!]

Feuer Frei.
From your wall of text....
Lets play numbers on costs .
If you ignore all the previous attempts at diving and all the previous operations on the wreck once located and all the additional cost in both planning and setting up setting up stage of the recovery operation...ignoring all that huge expense plus of course ignoring about two hundred other major costs on the operation itself...
So taking the cost of just 1 salvage ship, two tugs and two ocean going barges on the job but without taking their travelling costs into account.
How many more dollars were spent than the thimble full of mixed oils sold for?
And here i thought that you were going to do the maths for us :O:
The wall of text highlights the enormous and exhaustive and behind the scenes costs involved for a salvage operation.
Which makes the OP's arguement dead and buried.

[joea]

I'd think the idea is about like bailing out an AirCraft Carrier with a Coffee Cup.


Excellent.:up:

[Tribesman]

And here i thought that you were going to do the maths for us
No that was the OP who is good with counting:03:

Which makes the OP's arguement dead and buried.
Could it be that the use of CAPS LOCK was a pretty good indication of how well the arguement would stand?

[Task Force]

I say the government should randomly go putting nails in the road. and pop peoples tires... Then people wouldn't be able to drive! Well... till they go the spare.

[Ducimus]

As much as I DO NOT believe in the whole "oil crisis",

Ya think oil is gonna last forever do ya? :O:

[Hottentot]

I say the government should randomly go putting nails in the road. and pop peoples tires...

Hey, that's a good idea! I'm applying at once to be a paid nail placer. I mean, getting paid to cause headache to random people around me? Sounds like a dream job!

Then I can write to my CV: "Professional Mischief Expert Extraordinaire". Imagine how good that will sound to prospective employers.

[Task Force]

Hey, that's a good idea! I'm applying at once to be a paid nail placer. I mean, getting paid to cause headache to random people around me? Sounds like a dream job!

Then I can write to my CV: "Professional Mischief Expert Extraordinaire". Imagine how good that will sound to prospective employers.

Indeed, just think, you would be on the perfect road for a job in customer service!!!

[Betonov]

Here's on for the mathematicians:

would it be economically viable, to salvage an entire ship, sell the fuel and sell the ship itself as scrap metal. Food for thought

[Tribesman]

Food for thought
How many rusting broken down hulks are sat floating at some dock without anyone being bothered to buy it for the scrap?
Does that answer your question about the economic viability of an expensive salvage operation to raise a rusting wreck from the bottom of the sea to put it into a scrap yard?:03:

[Betonov]

True true, but I think I read somewhere that a salvaged ship becomes the property of the salvor after certain conditions are met, while you stil lhave to buy the rusting heap in the docks

[Madox58]

Buying the Rusted Ships is cheaper then a salvage operation.
The problem is once you buy/salvage one?
You have to move it then cut it up small enuff to scrap it.
The move and haveing a place to move it to with a dry dock is not cheap.
Add the wages to the workers who must then cut it up and all the handleing to get it to a scrap buyer.

[Betonov]

Damn, there goes another idea for a business :-?

Someone could write a paper:

The collective analysis or How Subsim prevents bad ideas in the business world

And a whole section would be dedicated to Tribesman, titled: The devils advocate

[Tribesman]

And a whole section would be dedicated to Tribesman, titled: The devils advocate
Hey thats not fair, I would have to see what the devil had written before I decided to advocate for him or just call him a bollox with silly ideas:03:

[Stealhead]

It is a bad idea anyway salvage operations cost millions and the oil would almost certainly already be useless after being exposed to small amounts of sea water for 70,80,90 years.They already have to extensively refine oil as it is and I think I saw on some show this engineer saying that they only end using for anything including oil about 60% of crude at best the rest of it gets pumped right back down.

The only reason they salvage some sunken ships is when they discover that they are leaking a large amount of bunker oil into the sea.From what I understand the US Navy monitors all its sunken ships that can be reasonably reached and do something if a large leak is discovered.The vessel OP mentioned was at good levels for years and was damaged by a very violent typhoon so they had to salvage the oil or the correct term would be remove it and dispose of it.Clearly the oil would be largely useless and or the small amount gained is not worth the cost I bet it cost more oil in operations to salvage the oil from a wreck than what you might get from it which would be none I strongly guess do to sea and and rust exposure.

I dont not understand why some people think oil will last forever Oh I know what it is ignorance I was the same way until I got to my first active duty base in the USAF and saw just at that base how much oil,gas,diesel,jet fuel,hydraulic fluid is used at one base and then though multiply this by every major military base,airport,and seaport on earth and then it hit me and that is not even taking into account all the trucks and trains that use oil to operate then all the cars and everything else..... it wont last forever WWII was fought partly over control of it we have fought twice in Iraq over it see the writing on the wall.

[TLAM Strike]

I wonder how much one could make from salvaging the Komsomolets? Tons of high grade titanium, two nuclear reactors and ... *cough* *cough* two nuclear bombs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sum_of_All_Fears) *cough* :hmmm:

[AVGWarhawk]

Buying the Rusted Ships is cheaper then a salvage operation.
The problem is once you buy/salvage one?
You have to move it then cut it up small enuff to scrap it.
The move and haveing a place to move it to with a dry dock is not cheap.
Add the wages to the workers who must then cut it up and all the handleing to get it to a scrap buyer.


They do it in the cutting yards here in Baltimore. There was the USS Coral Sea cut up to make razor blades. A bunch more. I watched it dwindle everyday I drove by the berth. There is money in cutting them up for scrap. For the most part getting the vessel to the cutting yard is the hurdle. If she is not sea worthy it creates a lot of logistical problems.

[Madox58]

At 5000+ feet down, probably a protected sight due to deaths?
And assumeing the U.S. has not already 'visited' the sight with advanced submurgables?

I see little value at this time to mess with it.

[TLAM Strike]

At 5000+ feet down, probably a protected sight due to deaths? Didn't protect the K-129.


And assumeing the U.S. has not already 'visited' the sight with advanced submurgables? Possably, I do know the Russians regularly send Mir submersibles down to monitor it.

I see little value at this time to mess with it. Guessing you are not a evil mastermind like me then... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sum_of_All_Fears)

[Stealhead]

Someone stated the idea simply of salvaging the sunken ships for the metal no need for that seeing as they can get that metal from retired vessels that merely need be cut apart.Many vessels only last about 10-15 years anyway such as the super tankers and container ships sure some have been around since the 80's but many companies would rather assume the cost of building a new one every decade than re-working an old one so the trend with many shipping companies is to buy a 10 year ship and then sell it for scrap or to another buyer often they are pretty worn out though such a large vessel sailing the high seas for several years does much wear and tear.(keep in mind that most naval vessels spend half their time in docks the other at sea while a commercial vessel will be at sea for many years.)