Do you believe??

[mapuc]

Do you belive there's life in space?

For me there's 2 questions on that issue

1 is there life out there, that only can be seen in a microscope?
I say yes

2 Is there life out there, that's intelligent?
Here I'm unsure

Markus

[Dowly]

Yes


EDIT: Richard Dawkins' (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jj3r01Je7hc) take on the issue.

[Raptor1]

The statistical probability is high, so yes.

[mapuc]

You could ad some additional questions to number 2

How intelligent are they?
What is intelligent?

Maybe we will find a planet where they stil lives in the 1100 Century
Or a planet where they are several thousand years ahead of us

It's only speculations

Markus

[Growler]

The surest proof that there's intelligent life in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us. ~ Bill Watterson, Calvin and Hobbes

I'm with Dawkins on many of the points he makes.

[razark]

I just watched four lifeforms head into space on Friday, so I'm absolutely sure there's life in space. :D



Given what we know about life, it's very probable that something exists somewhere besides Earth.

There's a very low probability that we will know for certain any time soon, though.

[frau kaleun]

Do you belive there's life in space?


I just watched four lifeforms head into space on Friday, so I'm absolutely sure there's life in space. :D


Lol, I was gonna say... since the Earth is "in space" the answer is most definitely "yes."

Now intelligent life... :O:

[razark]

Now intelligent life... :O:
Well, all four do work for the government...

[Howard313]

I think there could be, as for intelligent i don't know.

Put it this way, mathematically speaking, there is a better chance that there is life in the universe than that there isn't.

[Takeda Shingen]

I do not believe in extraterrestrial life.

[Growler]

Life... don't talk to me about life...

[Gerald]

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/5258/doyoubelieveinmiracles.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/263/doyoubelieveinmiracles.jpg/)

[Dowly]

^ :har:

[mookiemookie]

I do not believe in extraterrestrial life.

Curious, Tak: Why not?

I'd say with the infiniteness of the universe, there's bound to be some form of extraterrestrial life. Whether or not it's as intellectually advanced or not, I can't say.

[Alex]

Curious, Tak: Why not?
That question goes two ways : why would anyone be willing to believe in the existence of ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING from which the existence still has to be proved ?

If you go that way, nonsense science is your new God.

[Raptor1]

That question goes two ways : why would anyone be willing to believe in the existence of ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING from which the existence still has to be proved ?

If you go that way, nonsense science is your new God.

...because the probability of the existence of the thing they believe in is significantly greater than the probability that it does not? After all, I don't think anybody here is saying "Yes, Aliens exist, deal with it".

Also, isn't it exactly the same thing to claim something doesn't exist just because even though you have no evidence that it doesn't?

[mookiemookie]

...because the probability of the existence of the thing they believe in is significantly greater than the probability that it does not? After all, I don't think anybody here is saying "Yes, Aliens exist, deal with it".

Also, isn't it exactly the same thing to claim something doesn't exist just because even though you have no evidence that it doesn't?

Exactly. If the universe is infinite, that means there's infinite probability for life to occur in another place other than Earth. Mathematically, that means its a certainty.

[TLAM Strike]

I would say its almost guaranteed that there is at least microbial life in our own system.

As far an intelligent life in the universe goes that most like it has died out already or has yet to start.

Eitherway go out and find it, since they have either left us some nice artifacts to analyze or have given us a chance to play Chariots of the Gods! :rock:

[razark]

I would say its almost guaranteed that there is at least microbial life in our own system.
If it is out there, the next question is "Is it related to us, and how closely?"

[TLAM Strike]

If it is out there, the next question is "Is it related to us, and how closely?"
Perhaps the question should be "are we related to it?" ;)

[Sailor Steve]

No, I don't believe. Neither do I disbelieve. Sounds just like my take on God.

Statistical probablility. Mathematically speaking. Infiniteness of the universe. Mathematical certainty. All the preceding are given as reasons to believe. Unfortunately, belief is nothing more than applied speculation.

Microbial life? Inasmuch as that seems to form everywhere, I see no reason not to believe it. But belief isn't proof. Others can speculate all they want. I'll believe it when we find it. Or when it finds us.

[Feuer Frei!]

Yes i believe. Why?
Here's what the view from my backyard last night of the moon looked like:

http://ts2.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=1014337503517&id=dd19d6031d6e6e1ae029dcb761f66c10

[Tribesman]

If the universe is infinite, that means there's infinite probability for life to occur in another place other than Earth. Mathematically, that means its a certainty.
Adams mookie?

[Castout]

It doesn't matter what I believe. If they are there they are there if not they are not.

It's also irrelevant to anything related to us. If they are so advanced there's nothing we can do as the initiative belongs wholly with them, if they are more primitive or as equal to us in terms of civilization there's nothing both of us can do to interfere each other existence.

[Castout]

Adams mookie?

The universe is certainly not infinite. It may be expanding faster than can be traveled but it is certainly not infinite(at any moment you have a finite universe though it is ever expanding). Just out of man's reach to measure them. I suppose there will be time when the universe would slow down its expansion and stopping and then started to contract back . . . .maybe :DL But long before that I assume we would have successfully killed each other and the planet to extinction.

[Alex]

...because the probability of the existence of the thing they believe in is significantly greater than the probability that it does not?
I'm willing to be persuaded. Now please tell me in what way(s) can one say that probability of the existence of the thing they believe in is significantly greater than it does not. If it's based on justifiable facts other than pure credulity and time you're willing to waste thinking about what is, in my opinion, pure pointlessness.
Also, isn't it exactly the same thing to claim something doesn't exist just because even though you have no evidence that it doesn't?
I don't care about it all, personally.
And here's me saying that this stuff needs people to have 1. such a simplistic way of thinking to be taken in consideration 2. so much time to waste thinking about Incoherence and Illogicality, that the people sensible to that stuff must be of american nationality. Others don't have so much time to waste. :know:
Exactly. If the universe is infinite, that means there's infinite probability for life to occur in another place other than Earth. Mathematically, that means its a certainty.
Be sure I'm willing to be persuaded if you've got a decent argumentation. :yep:
But again, what's that ? No more than gullibility, in my opinion. ;)

The only conclusion you can come up with actually, is either a thing exists, or it doesn't, 50-50. You'll admit it's a poor argumentation so far, mathematically.

[Skybird]

There is life, and maybe parts of what we perceive as "cosmos" is a form of life itself.

I am very certain, however, that we have to widen our understanding of and imganitation on what "life" can be. The definition of life based on water and carbon like we see on Earth and maybe the solar system, probably reaches far too short, given the immense opportunity for diversity and the strangest of ideas cosmos hosts space for.

And do not even get me started on imaginable conceptions of what "intelligence" could mean.

We are very prone to fall fgor th idea that out there everything is pretty much the same like we are used to here within the reach of human senses and human understanding. Senn that way, many of us do not seek foreign life out there - but images of ourselves, mirrors of what we are used to from Earth. Maybe we do so, because that way we want to feel confirmed in our human-being.

People practicing meditation will agree that space exploration has two directions it points at, the outer space "up there", and the inner space we find inside ourselves.

And sometimes I wonder if maybe both are connected to each other that most of the time we just do not dare to even imagine.

"The truth, as always, will be far stranger." Arthur C. Clarke

[Alex]

We are very prone to fall for the idea that out there everything is pretty much the same like we are used to here within the reach of human senses and human understanding. Seen that way, many of us do not seek foreign life out there - but images of ourselves, mirrors of what we are used to from Earth. Maybe we do so, because that way we want to feel confirmed in our human-being.
Hmm, that's something worth thinking about. But be sure that the poor individual I am is not willing to play the Plato's disciple seeking answers to questions no one would be able to respond.

I just draw a clear distinction between elementary and unsophisticated existence, and indubitable life.

[Takeda Shingen]

I am not ignoring anyone in the thread or the issue itself. It is only that others have covered the views in a far superior manner. What it comes down to is the belief that the universe is so large that it is statistically viable that there might be intelligent life in the universe. This is phisisophically identical to the belief that human life, and the rest of the life on Earth, are so intricate and complicated that they could not be possibly formed by accident; they is a product of design. Neither are science.

[Rilder]

Eh there extraterrestrials out there, but eh we'll probably never meet them or have anything to ever do with them.

I don't think its just us but it won't be to the amount of different races as in star trek. (Though in Star Trek, afaik the a race called the Preservers pretty much seeded life in the galaxy from a small stock accounting for the large amount of races)

[Alex]

I am not ignoring anyone in the thread or the issue itself. It is only that others have covered the views in a far superior manner. What it comes down to is the belief that the universe is so large that it is statistically viable that there might be intelligent life in the universe. This is phisisophically identical to the belief that human life, and the rest of the life on Earth, are so intricate and complicated that they could not be possibly formed by accident; they is a product of design. Neither are science.
Conclusion ?
Where there's need for belief, there's no certitude, no conviction, and therefore we shouldn't talk about that, this thread shouldn't even exist, since everything everyone of us is doing is advancing arguments regarding a concept of which most of it remains to be ascertained, acquired by science, and then taught in schools.

Thoughts and personal conceptions have nothing to do in here, since none of us got any reason to be sure about what he says.

So let's talk about something else now ! :O:

[mookiemookie]

Conclusion ?
Where there's need for belief, there's no certitude, no conviction, and therefore we shouldn't talk about that, this thread shouldn't even exist, since everything everyone of us is doing is advancing arguments regarding a concept of which most of it remains to be ascertained, acquired by science, and then taught in schools.

Thoughts and personal conceptions have nothing to do in here, since none of us got any reason to be sure about what he says.

So let's talk about something else now ! :O:

Oh come on now, a little light hearted musing on the nature of things and mental flights of fancy is fine now and then.

All this talk about pragmatism and wasting time makes you sound a bit German. :03:

[Raptor1]

I'm willing to be persuaded. Now please tell me in what way(s) can one say that probability of the existence of the thing they believe in is significantly greater than it does not. If it's based on justifiable facts other than pure credulity and time you're willing to waste thinking about what is, in my opinion, pure pointlessness.

It's simple: We have an example of life in the universe, that being life on Earth. We know the universe is very big, even if it is not infinite. Therefore we can assume that conditions broadly similar to those which exist on Earth, and can facilitate the development of life forms, are highly likely to appear somewhere else in the universe. Now, we know various forms of life can exist in radically different environments, which adds even more to the chances to life developing in another place in the universe.

Basically, since the universe is so big, the conditions in which life can develop are much more likely to be present than not.

Good enough?


I don't care about it all, personally.
And here's me saying that this stuff needs people to have 1. such a simplistic way of thinking to be taken in consideration 2. so much time to waste thinking about Incoherence and Illogicality, that the people sensible to that stuff must be of american nationality. Others don't have so much time to waste. :know:

...right...


Be sure I'm willing to be persuaded if you've got a decent argumentation. :yep:
But again, what's that ? No more than gullibility, in my opinion. ;)

The only conclusion you can come up with actually, is either a thing exists, or it doesn't, 50-50. You'll admit it's a poor argumentation so far, mathematically.

That's exactly like saying that someone entering the lottery has a 50% chance of winning and a 50% chance of losing. Just because something has two possible answers doesn't mean they are equally likely.

Conclusion ?
Where there's need for belief, there's no certitude, no conviction, and therefore we shouldn't talk about that, this thread shouldn't even exist, since everything everyone of us is doing is advancing arguments regarding a concept of which most of it remains to be ascertained, acquired by science, and then taught in schools.

Thoughts and personal conceptions have nothing to do in here, since none of us got any reason to be sure about what he says.

So let's talk about something else now ! :O:

Are you saying that nothing that has not been conclusively proven should be debated or thought about...?

[Alex]

It's simple: We have an example of life in the universe, that being life on Earth. We know the universe is very big, even if it is not infinite. Therefore we can assume that conditions broadly similar to those which exist on Earth, and can facilitate the development of life forms, are highly likely to appear somewhere else in the universe. Now, we know various forms of life can exist in radically different environments, which adds even more to the chances to life developing in another place in the universe.

Basically, since the universe is so big, the conditions in which life can develop are much more likely to be present than not.

Good enough?
Well, good enough, yes. I'm not familiar enough with your language to dare to carry on that conversation anyway. :oops: :O:
That's exactly like saying that someone entering the lottery has a 50% chance of winning and a 50% chance of losing.

Just because something has two possible answers doesn't mean they are equally likely.
You're absolutely right.
The universe being so big, I actually can't see 0,0[...]01% of a ghost of a chance for life to appear anywhere else in the universe even though conditions for life to appear are gathered in the same place at the right time.

That's possible, yes. But that's not bound to happen. But then again you'll easily counter this argument saying no one actually has the slightest idea of the proportion for life to appear in an environment facilitating the development of life forms.
Are you saying that nothing that has been conclusively proven should be debated or though about...?
Oh come on now, a little light hearted musing on the nature of things and mental flights of fancy is fine now and then.

All this talk about pragmatism and wasting time makes you sound a bit German. :03:
Haha. ;)
I just don't like to leave room to the field of dreams, and constantly refuse not to see the world and existence through Cartesian eyes.

[TLAM Strike]

Neither are science.

Well lets talk about science for a minute (this isn't directed at you Tak but you bring up a point that needs to be addressed).

What are the requirements for "life as we know it"?

Energy (Sunlight or Geothermal)
Water in liquid form
Carbon (its really six elemnts in total the "CHNOPS" group, but Carbon is the big one)

Now lets look at our solar system.
Carbon is quite common, its one of the first heavy elements found on the Periodic Table.

Energy is everywhere, the sun produces it, its produced by geological process and by radiological decay on other bodies in the system.

That leaves water in liquid form. Water its self is easy to find, all the water on Earth came from comets that struck the Earth after its formation so its found all around the solar system. The trick is finding it liquid, the outer solar system seems ripe for it (Europa, Ganymede, Titian etc) and there seems to be traces in other systems as well MWC 480 for example.

There are asteroids that may have all three of these requirements! This stuff is scattered all over the solar system. The odds start to favor that there is some life out in our system, we just have to go looking.

:salute:

[Growler]

"Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere." ~Carl Sagan

[CaptainMattJ.]

First, lets not take a turn in the direction of religious debate, because ultimately that would be a never ending argument with firm believers not caving in to cold hard science and vise-versa


now, on topic:

The universe we know expands over mind blowing distances. the space inside is unimaginable. billions of planets, millions of galaxies (not to mention the possible other dimensions). We can almost never hope of travel between entire GALAXIES. Our fate lies within our own. And whether or not we find inhabitable planets will be the key to our survival.

It is a mathematical certainty there's life elsewhere, whether its still a single cell organisms or little green men in saucers, there's life out there. the point of finding life is that where there's life, there's most likely habitable planets. And the key to survival is also developing lightspeed or maybe even faster ways of traveling to other galaxies.

[razark]

Carbon (its really six elemnts in total the "CHNOPS" group, but Carbon is the big one)
And arsenic had shown the possibility of replacing phosphorus, so we can't even say that those six are absolutely needed.

[STEED]

Do you belive there's life in space?

For me there's 2 questions on that issue

1 is there life out there, that only can be seen in a microscope?
I say yes

2 Is there life out there, that's intelligent?
Here I'm unsure

Markus

1. NO.
2. NO.

[Task Force]

I do believe there is life in space. There are Billions of planets, around millions of stars, with the possibility that hundreds of thousands could be in the Green zone for life.

The universe is a enormous place, and billions of years old. I Find it hard to think that on one of those planets, in the past billion years, some form of life hasn't evolved into a sentient species.

I also believe in Intelligent life in space. While i dont think that they randomly abduct people, and cows. I do believe there is life, that has managed to figure out space flight, and are ahead of us (due to earlier mental development in their species? Better scientific theory's.) or at the same level of thinking as the us. While some life may be basic, as bacteria, or fish/reptiles/birds, ect. starting off as life on earth. still in the early stages.

[TLAM Strike]

For a little bit of fun try out the Drake Equation for your self. (http://activemind.com/Mysterious/Topics/seti/drake_equation.html)

When I did it for my astronomer class I figured that there are 50 intelligent civilizations in our galaxy using the statistics I gathered.

[Sailor Steve]

I notice that every one of those answers is prefaced with the disclaimer "Current Estimates".

This thread is about belief, and I used to believe in things. My only argument is with the people throwing around phrases like "Mathematical Certainty". Nothing is certain. Ever.

But belief is good, or else we'd never try to find out.

[mookiemookie]

My only argument is with the people throwing around phrases like "Mathematical Certainty". Nothing is certain. Ever.

2+2=4

:O:

[Sailor Steve]

2+2=4

:O:
That's not a thing, that's an equation. And don't be so certain. :D

[mookiemookie]

That's not a thing, that's an equation. And don't be so certain. :D

Certainly.

A nice short discussion on this very subject:

"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality.
—Albert Einstein (http://www.partialobserver.com/article.cfm?id=1379)

[Sailor Steve]

Oh, I love it! Thanks, Mark. :sunny:

[Castout]

2+2=4

:O:

That's on decimal system.

2+2=11 in a numbering system based on 0,1,2 only.

Using another basis 2+2 could also equal 10.

So nothing is certain :O:

[nikimcbee]

Atleast the thread has a music video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTYzz_hTIw4&feature=related

[Buddahaid]

I believe there is. I also believe it's the ultimate conceit of humanity to regarde ourselves as so important anyone else would be interested. Harkens back to Earth as the center of the universe belief, however as far as I'm concerned, I am the center for all intent and purposes. :ping: