22nd June 1941

[Oberon]

3:15

One of, if not the most decisive parts of World War Two begins.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1t1iz316dw&feature=related

http://www.russiablog.org/PanzersRussia.jpg

[Jimbuna]

In that particular theatre I'd would have thought it would have been Kursk :hmmm:

[CCIP]

In that particular theatre I'd would have thought it would have been Kursk :hmmm:

Lots happened in the two years before Kursk. In fact from the very first weeks, when the Germans failed to get to their initial aims, it was already decisive.

[Torplexed]

"We need only kick in the door and the whole rotten structure will come crashing down." --Adolph Hitler

Famous last words. :D

I remember being stunned by the numbers reading about it as a kid. When it comes to military operations Operation Barbarossa has no equal in history. Number of combatants involved, sheer physical scope, hatred and ruination, the Russo-German War of 1941-45 was staggeringly immense. I recall reading that Eisenhower was shocked when he flew over the devastation while flying to a victory celebration in Moscow. Not a house left standing for hundreds of miles.

[CCIP]

I remember being stunned by the numbers reading about it as a kid. When it comes to military operations Operation Barbarossa has no equal in history. Number of combatants involved, sheer physical scope, hatred and ruination, the Russo-German War of 1941-45 was staggeringly immense. I recall reading that Eisenhower was shocked when he flew over the devastation while flying to a victory celebration in Moscow. Not a house left standing for hundreds of miles.

Yeah, for me growing up in Russia, it was really something to be surrounded by the material history of the war. I can't understand how people can avoid being touched by it - everyone's been affected somehow.

My own moment as kid came when I was at the Piskarev Cemetery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piskarevskoye_Cemetery) on a cloudy day with almost noone around. Everyone always looks at the monument, but I was just fixated on the mass graves there - a patch of ground that's barely a few football fields in size. It just blew my mind that 500,000 people were buried there, most of them dead by cold and starvation, and that was but a tiny fraction of those killed in that war. Still gives me chills when I think of the moment when, somehow, the reality of that figure dawned on me while standing right among the rows of flat, nondescript ground where hundreds of thousands rested.

[Torplexed]

Yeah, for me growing up in Russia, it was really something to be surrounded by the material history of the war. I can't understand how people can avoid being touched by it - everyone's been affected somehow.

My own moment as kid came when I was at the Piskarev Cemetery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piskarevskoye_Cemetery) on a cloudy day with almost noone around. Everyone always looks at the monument, but I was just fixated on the mass graves there - a patch of ground that's barely a few football fields in size. It just blew my mind that 500,000 people were buried there, most of them dead by cold and starvation, and that was but a tiny fraction of those killed in that war. Still gives me chills when I think of the moment when, somehow, the reality of that figure dawned on me while standing right among the rows of flat, nondescript ground where hundreds of thousands rested.

The number that always struck me was the 800,000 dead at the siege of Leningrad. More than the US lost in the whole war. You wonder how a nation goes through misery like that without melting down. Maybe a history of similar miseries helps?

On a lighter note I found this Theodor Geissel (Dr. Seuss) editorial cartoon from June 1941 New York newspaper very appropriate. :D

http://pyxis.homestead.com/Dr.-Seuss.jpg

[Stealhead]

The number that always struck me was the 800,000 dead at the siege of Leningrad. More than the US lost in the whole war. You wonder how a nation goes through misery like that without melting down. Maybe a history of similar miseries helps?

On a lighter note I found this Theodor Geissel (Dr. Seuss) editorial cartoon from June 1941 New York newspaper very appropriate. :D

http://pyxis.homestead.com/Dr.-Seuss.jpg


I agree something about the Russian people they have a rather harsh history yet they seem to always persevere they truly have stiff upper lips.I know my wife who was born in then USSR Latvia to Ukrainian parents they have a toughness about them that most people in the many different nations I have been to lack.I know Ukrainians have their own culture but it is closely tied to Russian culture/history.

Of course I knew a few pure Russians in the USAF that where born in the USSR like CCIP was they never ever complained even on the ****tiest longest hardest days and I admired that because I was the same way:just push on through and shut your mouth.I saw on some TV show they where in Russia Moscow at that eternal flame for the war and there where dozens of just married couples waiting to pay their respects to the common solider on their wedding day that really impressed me and it shows just how strongly they still feel about the war.I am sure very few people in western nations like the US or England do something similar on such a personal day.You ask 20 American kids about WWII and you might find 5 at best who will know anything about it one will say something about Call of Duty I knew lots of folks while I was in the military that knew little to nothing about WWII or Korea.

[CCIP]

And let it never be said that any fighting side in WWII were cowards or didn't do their part, really. I'm honestly just as ashamed of fellow Russians today who put down other Allies' contributions to the war, or those who automatically write off every German as a mindless Nazi. I for one feel that it's a privilege for me to be able to see the war from all sides, and give credit where it's due. Of course for me the war is one of the ultimate ironies since by my ancestry, I have almost as much German and Finnish blood as I do Russian (in fact less Russian blood than the former two combined). So I can't help but stand back and see both madness, and the fact that some of it was still necessary for me (and probably all of us) to be here today.

[Krauter]

And let it never be said that any fighting side in WWII were cowards or didn't do their part, really. I'm honestly just as ashamed of fellow Russians today who put down other Allies' contributions to the war, or those who automatically write off every German as a mindless Nazi.


On the flip side, many people in the West generally are ignorant or are not fully appreciative of how much the Soviet Union did for the war effort.

[Stealhead]

I think much of the lack of knowledge stems from the Cold War and the Wests desire to demonize the Soviets(and vice verse) as a result from an official standard education we in the west still learn little about the Soviet/German side of the war besides that they fought.Interestingly one place where this is not the case are the US military War Colleges many grads studied Red Army and Soviet Army history and strategy. You should speak with my cousin a retired Marine Corps Colonel he knows so much about Soviet military history and strategy he could easily write a multi volume book on the subject mention Kursk or Operation Mars or anything else around him and you will be sitting there for hours discussing.

The whole every German was a Nazi every Russian a hardcore Red is just the same BS hate that you see everywhere.

I have had much interest in military history including WWII but as a kid and teen I read basically nothing about the Soviets/Russians in WWII.It was not until a buddy in the military gave the book "Enemy At the Gates"(which inspired the movie later) that I read anything about the Eastern Front.The books on this subject are less common and are often published by university presses University of Kansas press has several good Eastern Front books most by Russian authors(some actual vets) that are direct translations.

[Hottentot]

Beaten to it, so I'll just post this song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opkmvR9Nd-s) to commemorate the day.

I wonder how many visitors this site (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pobediteli) is going to receive today. (Wikipedia article instead of direct link, as the site itself at the moment refuses to work for me.)

Edit: By the way, CCIP, have you seen these films (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberation_%28film_series%29)? From what I've understood, they are still pretty famous in Russia? I watched them a while ago and liked them as films, despite of some historical inaccuracies. For anyone else interested, I think you can find at least the first two parts for free in Mosfilm's website.

[joea]

I've seen the last film in that series Hottentot-on the Fall of Berlin. Pretty good film and lots of authentic kit. :yeah:

[Hottentot]

Pretty good film and lots of authentic kit. :yeah:

Yeah, that's the thing that impressed me too in the series as whole. The planes were obvious props, but tanks were very authentic. When I watched the first film depicting the battle of Kursk, I was like "WTF, where did they get all that stuff :06:"

[Oberon]

I have always been impressed and humbled by the Russian spirit, these are people who went through the greatest hardships and took it on the chin and then gave back as good as they got, if not better.
The sheer numbers of the Great Patriotic War is mindboggling. The deadliest theatre of the whole war, something like a third to a quarter (if not more) of all the casualties in the Second World War.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yy8mxh0P63M :salute:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=01c_1264798146

[Lord Justice]

but I was just fixated on the mass graves there - a patch of ground that's barely a few football fields in size. It just blew my mind that 500,000 people were buried there, most of them dead by cold and starvation, and that was but a tiny fraction of those killed in that war. Still gives me chills when I think of the moment when, somehow, the reality of that figure dawned on me while standing right among the rows of flat, nondescript ground where hundreds of thousands rested.Yes, I remember watching a documentry few years ago, and one vetran form the ss das reich or leibstandarte was telling of how so many bodies piled up in front of them, in wave after wave attack of (woman regiments) whilst charging his lines. He shed no tear as some do in these progs, but did mention that he and his men were horrified at the site of all these woman falling before the machine guns, when the machine guns had stopped and still smoking he said some of the men were crying but it was them or us!!

[CCIP]

Edit: By the way, CCIP, have you seen these films (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberation_%28film_series%29)? From what I've understood, they are still pretty famous in Russia? I watched them a while ago and liked them as films, despite of some historical inaccuracies. For anyone else interested, I think you can find at least the first two parts for free in Mosfilm's website.

Yeah, they are - and I agree, even if Soviet filmography sanitizes the history in some aspects, the movies are just epic. I think that will be on my to-watch list today :yep:
(btw, the Mosfilm youtube is a brilliant thing - so many classic stuff on there in general)

***

Another thought:
Everyone always immediately thinks Russia/Russians on this event, but spare a thought also for others, especially Ukraine and Belarus. They were/are big countries in their own right (their combined population approaching that of Germany) and unlike Russia, they were completely overrun, were the sites of some of the worst atrocities and biggest battles, and next to Poland probably lost the most in that war as far as single nations go.

[STEED]

The only thing Hitler got right was the year and month, 1940 and Germany would have been bogged down quicker and 1942 Russia would be stronger. The weather for May was rain as Russia had very little road network, June was a better month.

In 1941 Hitler caught the Red Army in a period of reorganisation and all would go well in the first three weeks of the operation, once the Army Groups fanned out the problems set in, Barbarossa was lost at the battle of Smolensk that dragged on for three weeks which derailed the operation to knock Russia out of the war.

I've been reading a few books of the planning and the vital few months of the war and the more I read the more Barbarossa was a load of pants...

[Penguin]

thinking about this date and the giant bloodshed that followed gives me cold shivers.

[joea]

thinking about this date and the giant bloodshed that followed gives me cold shivers.

You and CCIP might like this post and pics on another forum I frequent.

http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110008

I especially like the fact how well kept the German graves are and the "Madonna of Nagasaki" statue.

[Task Force]

The only thing Hitler got right was the year and month, 1940 and Germany would have been bogged down quicker and 1942 Russia would be stronger. The weather for May was rain as Russia had very little road network, June was a better month.

In 1941 Hitler caught the Red Army in a period of reorganisation and all would go well in the first three weeks of the operation, once the Army Groups fanned out the problems set in, Barbarossa was lost at the battle of Smolensk that dragged on for three weeks which derailed the operation to knock Russia out of the war.

I've been reading a few books of the planning and the vital few months of the war and the more I read the more Barbarossa was a load of pants...

Operation Barbarossa was winnable, It would have been much better if winter preperations had been better, the russian winter was quite hard for the germans. I wouldnt say defeat was ineviable for the Germans till mid to late 43, after the major losses in the Stalingrad campaign, and its surrounding battles, and Kursk. After that, id say the German army was bled of experience. By then German industry couldn't keep up with Russian industry and training on the German part (which was very much more needed than the allies, as the Germans almost always fought outnumbered) went down hill as units needed to be filled. And as the war went on it just got worse.

BTW, nice video oberon, thats probably one of my favorite channels on youtube.