Pensions Outrage In UK

[Jimbuna]

It really annoys me that a political party (Lib Dems) with somewhere in the region of 55 seats (they're worst return in many a year) have so much influence on a subject that impacts on so many people that never voted for them) :nope:


Iain Duncan Smith has faced cries of protest from MPs on all sides in announcing the government will press ahead with controversial plans to raise the state pension age for women.
The coalition wants to raise this from 60 to 65 by 2018 before both female and male pension ages rise to 66 in 2020.


Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13834281

[AVGWarhawk]

The US fiddles with the age concerning retirement all the time. Let see, I will need to reach 105 before I can retire with full benefits. :hmmm:

[Jimbuna]

The US fiddles with the age concerning retirement all the time. Let see, I will need to reach 105 before I can retire with full benefits. :hmmm:

Is it really that bad....I'll soon have to reach 66 (up from 65) to receive a state pension and I thought that was bad :hmmm:

[Betonov]

They tried to raise the retirement age from 60 to 65 in our country this year. People went berserk, syndicates threatened with revolution, students threatened with another revolt (last year a student riot left our parliament building with broken windows and a burned ornamental bush) until a referendum was issued. The reform was rejected

[Jimbuna]

They tried to raise the retirement age from 60 to 65 in our country this year. People went berserk, syndicates threatened with revolution, students threatened with another revolt (last year a student riot left our parliament building with broken windows and a burned ornamental bush) until a referendum was issued. The reform was rejected

I think we're a little more civilised than that in the UK :hmmm:

Or so the government tell us/hope :03:

[Betonov]

I think we're a little more civilised than that in the UK :hmmm:

I thought you are from UK :06:

Edit: never mind, I read it wrong the first time :DL

Syndicates are a bit too powerfull here, they're playing the nostalgia card of our prevoius system. Trying to revert back to socialism and people follow them like sheep and if they say there will be riots than I expect a call from the civil defence to be on call. The truth is, they're a money grubbing pseudo labor organisation and if they'd do their jobs, we wouldn't be in this mess where we are today.

Damn it, saturday we are celebrating our 20th independence aniversary and people are running around with Socialist Yugoslavian flags

[Penguin]

They tried to raise the retirement age from 60 to 65 in our country this year. People went berserk, syndicates threatened with revolution, students threatened with another revolt (last year a student riot left our parliament building with broken windows and a burned ornamental bush) until a referendum was issued. The reform was rejected

They raised the pension age from 65 to 67 here in 2007. What did the Germans do? They voted again for the Christian Demoncrats who initiated it :damn: ...
Those damned sheeps here don't deserve it better...:nope:
The brave heroes of the Social Demoncrats who also voted for the raise were suddenly against it when they went into opposition. Really the true voice of the small man....:x

[Skybird]

Somebody has to pay for all that people want to have in pensions and comfort. And the simple truth is demographics, debts, and the madness of the Euro trading away richer countries' future securities do not allow to pay for all that stuff anymore. There was party for half a century, and now the waiter has come to present the bill - and it is a nightmare number.

And what does that mean - "richer countries"? All Wetsern nations have lived for decades on tics, wastiong more money on tic than they could afford. Germany has black-on-white debts of almost 2 billion currently. If you calculate all future pesnions into it of people who at this very time earn or haver earned claims for fduture pensions, Germany's debts right now already are over 5 billion - one htird of that of the US, but with an economy and population not equalling one third of the US economy and population!

We have already consumed our children's and children's children's future. And in more than just finacial understandings of that phrase. Generation-wise, we have not been good parents over the past decades. We have been total azzes. And where the Argentinians have been ten years ago, and Greece is today, Germany will be in 10-15 years.

On the Greeks, it seems to me they do not search solutions and do not wish to understand how every single vote the private person made over the past 40 years has contributed to the mess they are in now. To me, there are no victims of the system, becasue the vast ,majority of Greek citizens particpated in the system as long as it held together and they did get their share. Instead of understanding this, they now instead look for foreign scapegoats. Today there was an article in the German press, describing the last reformer they had over 100 years ago who tried to reform the deeply corrupt political system Greece has traditionally. They lynched him.

[jumpy]

The truth is, they're a money grubbing pseudo labor organisation and if they'd do their jobs, we wouldn't be in this mess where we are today.


That just about sums up our government for the last ....ooh soooo many years now. You get used to it eventually until it doesn't really matter what they say or do or what we think of it, 'cause they'll only ignore us anyway.

What I fail to understand is where are all these jobs for the masses going to come from? Old people working longer, young people looking for jobs of their own, and everyone in-between in a declining mass labour market.
They've planned to cut national debt by including raising the state pension age as one means of trying to saving money - I think that all the government has planned for as far as the pension thing is concerned. Perhaps the private sector will step in and solve all our problems, you know, like they did once before...? :haha:

[Penguin]

What I fail to understand is where are all these jobs for the masses going to come from? Old people working longer, young people looking for jobs of their own, and everyone in-between in a declining mass labour market.


The employment level of people over 50 is 50% here... But the government still thinks in this 1950s utopia of full-employment. Everyone is waiting for the labour fairy who magically will make a job wonder.


They've planned to cut national debt by including raising the state pension age as one means of trying to saving money - I think that all the government has planned for as far as the pension thing is concerned.

Seems that the Krauts voted for the same geniuses...

[Bakkels]

It really annoys me that a political party (Lib Dems) with somewhere in the region of 55 seats (they're worst return in many a year) have so much influence on a subject that impacts on so many people that never voted for them) :nope:



Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13834281


Eehm, not to be a pain, but first of all, you have different pensions ages for women and men in the UK? I find that kind of weird in the first place.
And it's 60 for women? Well I'm sorry but raising that age only seems a good thing to me.
Over here the pension age just got raised a year ago. Yes there were some protests, but the bill made it through parliament. And I got to say, it's only natural. In the 50's, a very famous social-democrat prime-minister here introduced pensions, a standard pension for elderly people and general health care. Socialist as he was, even he said (back in the fifties, that is) that the pension age should rise to compensate for the increased life-expectancy.

The only problem I see is that it's now going to be introduced in one large operation. And that it's going to affect the generation after the baby-boomers. Not the baby-boomers themselves.
They should have started slightly increasing it from the get-go. Still, it's now been raised from 65 to 67. I have no objection to that. I have some objections against other cut-backs, but the increase of pension age? It's only a logical consequence of increasing life-expectancy.

I can tell you this much though; it's going to be a way bigger problem in Southern Europe. The pension ages in Italy, Spain and Greece are much lower. And those countries are faced with an even larger ageing of the population.

[AVGWarhawk]

Is it really that bad....I'll soon have to reach 66 (up from 65) to receive a state pension and I thought that was bad :hmmm:


One can retire at age 62 but benefits are less. Age 67 full benefits are offered.

[Tribesman]

Eehm, not to be a pain, but first of all, you have different pensions ages for women and men in the UK? I find that kind of weird in the first place.
It goes back a long time.
An equality case was bought which of course resulted in adding 5 years to the womens retirement age to make all things equal.
But that wouldn't be fair on a woman who was 59 and was about to retire so they stretched the timeframe for implementation, but 5 years is a lot of change so you have to stretch it down to be fair to 55 year olds which isn't fair on 54 year olds so you have to stretch it and they have been argueing for two decades on how long to keep stretching.

[BossMark]

As an ex coal miner I think I can claim my pit pension when I am 50, but not so sure now. I have never voted Lib Dem and have no intention of ever doing so(I am a member of the Labour party) what they are doing is an absolute outrage and come the next general election it will serve them right when hopefully they will get less than 10 seats.

[Jimbuna]

As an ex coal miner I think I can claim my pit pension when I am 50, but not so sure now. I have never voted Lib Dem and have no intention of ever doing so(I am a member of the Labour party) what they are doing is an absolute outrage and come the next general election it will serve them right when hopefully they will get less than 10 seats.

Coal minor eh? :hmmm:

I'm a retired cop...pleased to meet you, again :DL

Back on a serious note....I drew my force pension at 50 but this topic is about state/age related pension :03:

[Oberon]

Coal minor eh? :hmmm:

I'm a retired cop...pleased to meet you, again :DL



:har::har::har:

In all seriousness though, is anyone getting a bit of deja vu? I mean, it's been thirty years since The Specials did 'Ghost Town', but the lyrics could be for today. I guess its true what they say about history repeating.

[Jimbuna]

:har::har::har:

In all seriousness though, is anyone getting a bit of deja vu? I mean, it's been thirty years since The Specials did 'Ghost Town', but the lyrics could be for today. I guess its true what they say about history repeating.

One of my fundamental concerns is the fact that on previous economic/industrial downturns there was still a healthy apprenticeship scheme in many industries to help rejuvinate manufacturing etc. when the upturn came but today there are no such schemes or industry for that matter.

[Oberon]

One of my fundamental concerns is the fact that on previous economic/industrial downturns there was still a healthy apprenticeship scheme in many industries to help rejuvinate manufacturing etc. when the upturn came but today there are no such schemes or industry for that matter.

I hear you, the death of our primary and secondary industry has been a concern of mine. It's all well and good moving towards a tertiary civilization stage if you have the society to support that, which we do not. Furthermore, tertiary based civilizations are more vulnerable to economic downturns than primary and secondary ones because of their reliance on the economic sector for employment and business. We desperately need to take a step back in the sector stages and focus on secondary and primary industry for employment purposes...however the big problem with that is the quotas set by the EU which put limits on what farming and fishing industries can do. I'm not sure where the EU stands on Secondary industry, but Tertiary seems relatively untouched, which is probably why we're thrashing like mad trying to keep our head above water in the Tertiary sector.

Oh, and for those who are not sure what I mean by Primary, Secondary and Tertiary industry, here's a quick link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-sector_hypothesis

It was something I was taught in Geography which has stuck with me because it is a very true proposal in most instances.

[TarJak]

The problem is that by the time you have gotten to 3rd stage economy based largely on services rather that production, you have priced yourself out of the primary and secondary markets.

The only way you can compete then is to drop your salary which no-one wants to do because of the hit on standard of living.

I don't know the answers but going back stages is not as easy as you might think unless people are prepared to forego their previous lifestyles. This only happens when the economic downturns bite hard enough on enough people to force large sections of the economy to shift direction.

[Oberon]

The problem is that by the time you have gotten to 3rd stage economy based largely on services rather that production, you have priced yourself out of the primary and secondary markets.

The only way you can compete then is to drop your salary which no-one wants to do because of the hit on standard of living.

I don't know the answers but going back stages is not as easy as you might think unless people are prepared to forego their previous lifestyles. This only happens when the economic downturns bite hard enough on enough people to force large sections of the economy to shift direction.

Hmmm, good point, however it's coming up to a crunch time where people might not have much of a choice. Of course, the reductions will hit the poorest hardest and it'll be Greece in the UK. There is no real answer that will fix the problems we face without significant pain for most of the country. On one hand, raising the pension age is an inevitability, as our local MP put it last night in the commons the average life expectancy in the UK is rising at a critical rate, an unsustainable one even. However you cannot target pensions and public sector workers alone, you have to make the cuts across the board and treat everyone equally, you have to tax the richest as well as the poorest. I don't know if that is what they are doing, but there is a widespread belief that they are not, that they are hitting the poorest and the disadvantaged first, then hitting public sector workers, whilst leaving the bankers and rich people well alone, I don't know if this is true or whether it is a myth brought about by popular perception of the Conservative party however it doesn't have to be true for it to rile the people up. I have a feeling we are in for another 'Winter of Discontent', quite possibly two or three of them to be honest.

[Herr-Berbunch]

We've not much left in the primary, few people have the know-how to be in the secondary, that leaves everyone else answering phones - unless some bright spark decides to ship that out to India. Oh! :damn:

And whilst I don't want to get into a political row, yes the Tories may have started the downturn in the loss of primary and secondary industries, but Labour have done little if anything over their 13 years in the hot seat to reverse this.

Back OT, women (and men?) want equality, and this is just one more step towards something like that - still not equal in a lot of other areas, but slowly getting there. :yep: And we need to find some way out of this fiscal cock-up. I just wish Dave would stop announcing things and actually put some feelers out as to what the people think rather than announcing and then changing his mind. A bit ridiculous.

[Penguin]

Eehm, not to be a pain, but first of all, you have different pensions ages for women and men in the UK? I find that kind of weird in the first place.
And it's 60 for women? Well I'm sorry but raising that age only seems a good thing to me.

I agree with you regarding this point, as long as child education times are also considered towards your pension- which they are here, iirc 3 years per kid.


Over here the pension age just got raised a year ago. Yes there were some protests, but the bill made it through parliament. And I got to say, it's only natural. In the 50's, a very famous social-democrat prime-minister here introduced pensions, a standard pension for elderly people and general health care. Socialist as he was, even he said (back in the fifties, that is) that the pension age should rise to compensate for the increased life-expectancy.


The guy said it in the 50s, where we had full-employment. These times will never come back. I live near the Ruhrgebiet, which used to be the industrial heartland of Germany. Only a fraction of the jobs were shifted from the industrial to the service sector. Most jobs just vanished.

I might be subjective, as most old people I know/knew come from a working-class/lower middle class background. You cannot do manual labour indefinitely - and certainly not everybody can switch to an administrational job at old age, not only because of the skills but also because of an limited amount of these positions.
This is something which is not considered in a static age limit: the different worn-out levels of the people. There are certainly many people who are eager and fit enough to work till they reach a high age, nobody should stop them doing so, but not everybody has the skills, health and possibility to do so.

Another problem I have with the argument of the increased lifespan of the people. It is certainly true that we live longer. But should the consequence be that we all work till near death? Maybe we just should say good-bye to this 19th/early 20th century model of labour and enjoy the fruits that an increased productivity can purvey to us. Or do we need to re-indroduce barren, repetitive manual labour at a conveyor belt, just for the sake of creating jobs?

[Bakkels]

I might be subjective, as most old people I know/knew come from a working-class/lower middle class background. You cannot do manual labour indefinitely - and certainly not everybody can switch to an administrational job at old age, not only because of the skills but also because of an limited amount of these positions.
This is something which is not considered in a static age limit: the different worn-out levels of the people. There are certainly many people who are eager and fit enough to work till they reach a high age, nobody should stop them doing so, but not everybody has the skills, health and possibility to do so.


You bring up some good points. Over here it will be taken into account if you're doing manual labour that takes a bigger toll on the body over the years. The problem is objectively establishing which jobs are heavier physically, and how much compared to others/eachother.

[Betonov]

A retiree tells her teenage grand-daughter: when I was your age I was allready working
Response: grandma, when I'll be your age I'll still be working

[yubba]

Well our grand thinkers in D.C. opt for social commie crowney capitalism, they opt for pristein wilderness than drilling for oil, they opt too not drill in the gulf. They choose to regulate and create a unfreindy climate for businesses to grow, while their buddies get waviors. They opt for cleaner air, meaning, that coal fired electrical plants will shut down, without replacement plants up and running to replace the coal fired plants, meaning it's going to be harder to charge your electric car, and prices of everything will skyrocket. More Government is not the answer, government is the problem. If you want cleaner air plant more trees and quit using our oceans as toilets.

[STEED]

I like the way Cameron said I would be tougher on the unemployed and immigrants if it wasn't for the Liberals! :o

So why did you jump in to bed with them?

As for the Liberals they have lost the plot, if Clegg was a true Liberal he would say stuff you the coalition is off, but no he's had a taste of power and loves it.

As for the Unions going on strike on the 30th June big deal...Why don't all of the Unions walk out for good? That would cause Cameron one hell of a nightmare situation which could result in a prompt general election. Trouble is the Conservatives, Labour and Liberals are a wast of space and a total disgrace.

I unit such time where someone stands up and has the balls to do what is needed like getting us out of the bloody EU this country will remain on course for a third world country.

[Jimbuna]

I like the way Cameron said I would be tougher on the unemployed and immigrants if it wasn't for the Liberals! :o

So why did you jump in to bed with them?

As for the Liberals they have lost the plot, if Clegg was a true Liberal he would say stuff you the coalition is off, but no he's had a taste of power and loves it.

As for the Unions going on strike on the 30th June big deal...Why don't all of the Unions walk out for good? That would cause Cameron one hell of a nightmare situation which could result in a prompt general election. Trouble is the Conservatives, Labour and Liberals are a wast of space and a total disgrace.

I unit such time where someone stands up and has the balls to do what is needed like getting us out of the bloody EU this country will remain on course for a third world country.

I'd be saying to those bloodsuckers in Westminster...."Okay so your making adjustments to the working class pensions?......yours first and we'll all settle for equality".

[MothBalls]

A. Soylent Green

[sidslotm]

A Favorite film Quote from Red October "I am a politician, that means I'm a cheat and a liar" But the best way of dealing with politicians,

http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/1603/32632316.jpg

[antikristuseke]

Meh, i'm not going to live long enough to see my retirement anyway so i'm not too bothered, they will probably have the retirement age hiked up to 75 by then.

[STEED]

I'd be saying to those bloodsuckers in Westminster...."Okay so your making adjustments to the working class pensions?......yours first and we'll all settle for equality".

I would put the whole bloody lot up against the wall when the Revolution comes...

But as we know jim its game over for this country now, may as well make the most of our life's, nothing will change for the better.

[Jimbuna]

Newcastle might yet win the Premiership one day :DL

[STEED]

Newcastle might yet win the Premiership one day :DL

You never know jim. :D

[Jimbuna]

I've probably got more chance of getting bit on the bottom by a cabbage :03:

[STEED]

I've probably got more chance of getting bit on the bottom by a cabbage :03:

Mutant killer cabbage! :o

[BossMark]

Newcastle might yet win the Premiership one day :DL
:03::nope:

[Betonov]

Mutant killer cabbage! :o

Don't start, I got attacked by my tomatoes yesterday :DL

[STEED]

Don't start, I got attacked by my tomatoes yesterday :DL

:haha::up:

[Jimbuna]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-wYAx3Q-eI1E/TfiNeA6klHI/AAAAAAAAAHE/eiKPAIHOCzY/s320/cabbage-vegetable-free-clipart.JPG (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-wYAx3Q-eI1E/TfiNeA6klHI/AAAAAAAAAHE/eiKPAIHOCzY/s1600/cabbage-vegetable-free-clipart.JPG)

[Armistead]

No doubt the retirement age in the US will soon be 70. I don't buy the argument that increased life-expectancy should increase retirement age.
Why we have been told we can live longer, that denies many facts. Why we are living longer, most are living longer with illness and increased disability and become poor performers. Most companies or corporations will not hire elderly. The majority of companies have away around laws to shed current older employees. Fact is most don't want an older sicker employee when they can hire a younger healthy worker for much less. Few will hire elders to keep them off their insurance roles, small business for sure. Today many older people are retiring in mass early and taking less benefit because no one will hire them. Add to that mass unemployment, just makes hiring them less likely.

The life expentancy argument is wrong and a ploy. The issue is debt. Government spends billions where it shouldn't, not where it should. We're rebuilding two nations and in another attack where we'll soon play another role nation building. It's time we care for our own.

We need to raise capital and we can only do it by raising taxes and cutting govt spending across the board. Giving corporations tax breaks thinking it will trickle down here is a joke in a global economy. Give them tax breaks, where do you think they'll invest it, simple, they'll add and build in the cheapest place law allows like India or China, the US will see no benefit from it.

[Jimbuna]

No doubt the retirement age in the US will soon be 70. I don't buy the argument that increased life-expectancy should increase retirement age.
Why we have been told we can live longer, that denies many facts. Why we are living longer, most are living longer with illness and increased disability and become poor performers. Most companies or corporations will not hire elderly. The majority of companies have away around laws to shed current older employees. Fact is most don't want an older sicker employee when they can hire a younger healthy worker for much less. Few will hire elders to keep them off their insurance roles, small business for sure. Today many older people are retiring in mass early and taking less benefit because no one will hire them. Add to that mass unemployment, just makes hiring them less likely.

The life expentancy argument is wrong and a ploy. The issue is debt. Government spends billions where it shouldn't, not where it should. We're rebuilding two nations and in another attack where we'll soon play another role nation building. It's time we care for our own.

We need to raise capital and we can only do it by raising taxes and cutting govt spending across the board. Giving corporations tax breaks thinking it will trickle down here is a joke in a global economy. Give them tax breaks, where do you think they'll invest it, simple, they'll add and build in the cheapest place law allows like India or China, the US will see no benefit from it.

Pretty much the same answer in the UK :yep: