First Time Sunk By DC

[HowFar]

Wow! I just experienced my first sinking by depth charge with a real sense of immersion (TMO 2.1/RSRDC). Just west of Toku (Formosa) I encountered a small task force consisting of a light cruiser (appeared to be a Kuma) and three escorts. They changed course giving me a 0 degree AOB and I couldn't get out of their path fast enough so I tried to make the best of it. I couldn't even get a good ID on them, but from the sound of them they were lighter patrol craft. Although I have the Free Camera enabled I don't use it in cases where it could give me an unrealistic edge, and keep it limited to my lust for eye candy in noncombat situations. I did sink two Matsu DEs over the previous 48 hours (game time) and these did have that broad superstructure. The sea was flat calm and I was making quick peeks at them, but they still apparently detected me at about 3500 yards based on their acceleration. I took two quick desparation shots with Mk 18s and went to 300 feet [in Tautog]. They pounded the hell out of me on the first pass causing flooding in the aft torpedo room and injuring the whole compliment in that compartment. There was plenty of other damage too, but I moved the bulkhead to the top of the repair list since it was flooding fast and damage was at 89 percent. I also swapped the injured crew with the forward torpedo room crew so there were healthy guys in there.

I was really taken aback by the sense of immersion. My boat started to settle by the stern so I bumped my speed up to 2/3 hoping to slow my descent which was currently at 340 ft. I was pounded for close to an hour as I tried to evade those guys and it looked as though I was going to make it. I was really involved at this point and, not meaning to over use the phrase, was really immersed. The whole situation took on a sense of reality, the crew, the angle of the boat as it settled by the stern, the sound of hissing steam and creaking hull, and the steady hum of my pursuers above as the relentless pouning continued. The bulkead repair in the aft torpedo room was complete and pumping was in process and I was really beginning to believe I was going to get out of this mess. But then all hell broke loose with what seemed to be an endless staccatto of depth charges. No exageration, there had to be at least 15 to 20 explosions if not more and everything fell apart. Damged propeller shaft, propeller destroyed, batteries damaged,... the list went on and on, but the backbreaker was the aft torpedo room bulkead damage was back to 89 percent and the engine room bulkhead was at 91 percent with heavy flooding in both. The boat took an extream angle up as she settled by the stern and all I could do is watch the speed of my descent increase. Things really started to happen as I passed 800 feet and the lights went out around 1,100 feet and the Tautog was no more as of January 8, 1945.

I've had other losses in the years since v1.1 such as running out of gas, running aground while at a high TC, taking on an aircraft and getting my engines destroyed and not being able to return home... you know, the typical bonehead losses. But this was my first serious immersed loss. It was dramatic and it actually made me think about submariner's final moments. Trapped in my small space (I always conduct business from the conning tower) with eight other men as the world tears apart around me gives a true feeling of helplessness and desparation. I've always been fascinated by submarines, especially the fleet boats of WWII. I've read a fair number of books on the subject over the years (top 3 are "Submarine", "Pig Boats", and "Silent Victory"), but I have to say that this has added another dimension to my perception of submarines at war.

Apart from my fascination with the experience I am kind of bummed since this was the crew of the Tarpon (fondly referred to as the "Tampon") from the beginning of the war until forced upgrade to the Tautog prior to this patrol. Yes this was my first patrol in the Tautog.

I hope this isn't an indication that I'm losing touch with reality. I really do have a life that includes wife, kids, friends, etc., but I do like to escape it when I can and this is the perfect avenue for me.

Thanks for listening, thanks for the gread mods, and thanks for the opportunity to be a part of the Subsim Community.

T

[WernherVonTrapp]

Wow! I just experienced my first sinking by depth charge with a real sense of immersion (TMO 2.1/RSRDC). And you lived to tell us about it.:03::D
Isn't this a fantastic sim?:up:

[HowFar]

And you lived to tell us about it.:03::D
Isn't this a fantastic sim?:up:

The greatest to date as far as I'm concerned. Thanks for taking the time to read.

[Daniel Prates]

Welcome aboard, matey.

[HowFar]

Welcome aboard, matey.

Thanks.

[Jan Kyster]

300 ft is way to little! Go much - much! - deeper.
You didn't mention it, but of course you were rigged for silent running and not going above 2 to 3 knots?

And for the love of... do not - repeat: DO NOT! - go anywhere near DDs in flat calm sea!
And most certainly not under any circumstances when using TMO! Never! :nope:

Agree on your top three list, but my list also includes "War in the Boats", "Thunder below!" and "A Tale of two Subs" :D
I really do have a life that includes wife, kids, friendsSuuuure.... of course... :shifty:

Nah, only kidding! http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z15/subject_rod/smilies/biggrin3.gif

Only problem with them is when you try to share your experiences, isn't it?
At least the times I've tried, noone really seems to understand, rolling and fading eyes is usually what I get... :88)


Welcome aboard, matey.Erh, too late... he was here before you, Daniel :O:

[HowFar]

300 ft is way to little! Go much - much! - deeper.
You didn't mention it, but of course you were rigged for silent running and not going above 2 to 3 knots?

And for the love of... do not - repeat: DO NOT! - go anywhere near DDs in flat calm sea!
And most certainly not under any circumstances when using TMO! Never! :nope:

Agree on your top three list, but my list also includes "War in the Boats", "Thunder below!" and "A Tale of two Subs" :D

Suuuure.... of course... :shifty:

Nah, only kidding! http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z15/subject_rod/smilies/biggrin3.gif

Only problem with them is when you try to share your experiences, isn't it?
At least the times I've tried, noone really seems to understand, rolling and fading eyes is usually what I get... :88)

Erh, too late... he was here before you, Daniel :O:

My test depth was 250 so I was a little hesitant to go deeper. I've done it before, but these four (now three) campaigns are my first with TMO/RSRDC so I wasn't sure what to expect as far as an actual crush depth. I now know that I can go much deeper. Yes I was silent and running at 2 knots, although I did bump it up a notch to slow my sinking which may likely have exacerbated my situation.

Trust me, next time I will run like hell as soon as I pick up the sound of DDs.



I don't belive I've read "A Tale of Two Subs", but will now try to pick it up on your recommendation. I can't get seem to get enough on the subject.

Yeah, my wife looks at me with raised eyebrows, but my nine year old son gets it. He has his own copy of each SH3, SH4 Gold, and regretfully SH5. He's pretty good at it too. I'm trying to get him into manual targeting.

Thanks for taking the time to read and respond. I appreciate the input. I've picked up a great deal from you all at Subsim. I can honestly say that discovering Subsim has saved my copy of SH4 from the trash.

[ddiplock]

My test depth was 250 so I was a little hesitant to go deeper. I've done it before, but these four (now three) campaigns are my first with TMO/RSRDC so I wasn't sure what to expect as far as an actual crush depth. I now know that I can go much deeper. Yes I was silent and running at 2 knots, although I did bump it up a notch to slow my sinking which may likely have exacerbated my situation.

Trust me, next time I will run like hell as soon as I pick up the sound of DDs.



I don't belive I've read "A Tale of Two Subs", but will now try to pick it up on your recommendation. I can't get seem to get enough on the subject.

Yeah, my wife looks at me with raised eyebrows, but my nine year old son gets it. He has his own copy of each SH3, SH4 Gold, and regretfully SH5. He's pretty good at it too. I'm trying to get him into manual targeting.

Thanks for taking the time to read and respond. I appreciate the input. I've picked up a great deal from you all at Subsim. I can honestly say that discovering Subsim has saved my copy of SH4 from the trash.

Your test depth may be 250, but trust me, your boat can handle it. Last night I was hiding down at 430ft in my Tambor class boat, and it also only has a test depth of 250. Besides, part of the fun is pushing the boat that bit more, just don't go TOO deep, i've made that mistake before and breached the hull and sunk myself.

But yeah, even with a 250 rating, you'll easily be safe going just past the 400ft mark. 300 is way too shallow :P

Also, prob don't need to tell you but, whenever you hear DC's coming down on your head, run the engines to flank and throw the rudder hard left/right depending on where the Destroyer appers to be heading. Should hopefully get you out of the blast area some. While the DC's are exploding round your ears, their sonar will be deaf to your engine noise allowing you to run at flank for a few precious seconds. Scoot and glide, scoot and glide :D

[magic452]

That is a very good career to lose that late in the war. :damn:

Magic

[HowFar]

Your test depth may be 250, but trust me, your boat can handle it. Last night I was hiding down at 430ft in my Tambor class boat, and it also only has a test depth of 250. Besides, part of the fun is pushing the boat that bit more, just don't go TOO deep, i've made that mistake before and breached the hull and sunk myself.

But yeah, even with a 250 rating, you'll easily be safe going just past the 400ft mark. 300 is way too shallow :P

Also, prob don't need to tell you but, whenever you hear DC's coming down on your head, run the engines to flank and throw the rudder hard left/right depending on where the Destroyer appers to be heading. Should hopefully get you out of the blast area some. While the DC's are exploding round your ears, their sonar will be deaf to your engine noise allowing you to run at flank for a few precious seconds. Scoot and glide, scoot and glide :D

Yes, I wasn't too sure how much deeper to go and I was a being a little conservative, plus the fact that I had escaped so many situations up to now I felt I could do it again. I guess I was getting a little cocky. In the final descent the boat was comfortably holding together past 700 feet and was around 1,200 feet when it finally crushed.

I also wasn't sure about full speed because the ecorts sounded as if they were taking turns on me until the end wehn they all seemed to pound me at once. As one of them passed over me I didn't know if another would pick me up from short to medium range. Oh well, lessons learned...

That last barrage was incredible. It was as if they all hit me at the same time, which I think was the case because I never in the years of playing SH4 since it's initial realease have experienced anything like it. My hat's off to Ducimus and/or Lurker because this felt real. I kind of seal myself off from the world when I do this so I can really get into it. The helpless feeling as I was sinking had a definite air of realism to it. It was an experience that I can't tell my wife about because she would likely check me into some sort of rehab for subsimers, so I had to post. I fugured you guys would understand.

[HowFar]

That is a very good career to lose that late in the war. :damn:

Magic

It was painful. For a brief second I considered reloading the last save, but it just isn't the same so I dismissed the notion. I've tried that before and it didn't feel right so I quit that campaign too. Once you've been sunk it's over. Here it is roughly seven hours later and I'm still not over it. Heck, maybe I do need subsim rehab.

Oh yes, and it was January 28, 1945. My initial post said January 8th so I must have muffed the 2 somehow.

[magic452]

Oh yes, and it was January 28, 1945. My initial post said January 8th so I must have muffed the 2 somehow.


Well that explains it all now. Your horoscope clearly said "Don't take any unnecessary chances on the 28th. :know: :hmmm: :D

I know what you mean about reloading saves, it's just not the same.

Magic

[raoul01]

you know i m not soow good in sh4 they always sink me, but i dont care i play it for fun.
did'nt you say that you get killed with manny DC'S maybe a subchaser did do that?

[magic452]

you know i m not soow good in sh4 they always sink me, but i dont care i play it for fun.
did'nt you say that you get killed with manny DC'S maybe a sibchaser did do that?

That is the way to do it, for fun. :yeah: :woot: Whatever is fun for you is the best way to play.

Magic

[HowFar]

That is the way to do it, for fun. :yeah: :woot: Whatever is fun for you is the best way to play.

Magic

Absolutely right! Fun is not a "one size fits all", but is taylor made for the recipient. What's fun for me may not work for many and vice versa. The important thing is is that we're all having it.

[HowFar]

you know i m not soow good in sh4 they always sink me, but i dont care i play it for fun.
did'nt you say that you get killed with manny DC'S maybe a sibchaser did do that?

Fun is priority number one:up: Yes, I got nailed by more DC's than I've ever experienced in a single battle. I believe they were subchasers or a coastal patrol vessel of some sort based on sound. I couldn't get a good look at them because of the zero AOB and I don't use the free camera during combat.

[HowFar]

Well that explains it all now. Your horoscope clearly said "Don't take any unnecessary chances on the 28th. :know: :hmmm: :D

Magic

I knew it had to be something like that.

[Rockin Robbins]

Welcome to TMO! Have a nice day and please clean the mess on the bottom of the Pacific.:D

With TMO you can play perfectly and still die. You are NOT master of your own destiny. And that is like the real war. The skillful as well as the inept also die. Duci achieved magnificent balance there. Salute!

[HowFar]

Welcome to TMO! Have a nice day and please clean the mess on the bottom of the Pacific.:D

With TMO you can play perfectly and still die. You are NOT master of your own destiny. And that is like the real war. The skillful as well as the inept also die. Duci achieved magnificent balance there. Salute!

Thanks RR. I agree, Duci produced a work of art and I have to say that I'm a fan. As I've stated previously, I was ready to toss SH4 earlier this year because I was sick of the historical inaccuracies and that ridiculous crashing aircraft every bleeping time you returned to Pearl. I don't know why, but that single feature could almost throw me into a silent rage. I hated it! The other thing that bugged the heck out of me was the conning tower upgrade inconsistenies.

TMO and RSRDC gave me exactly what I was looking for when I first purchsed SH4, a sense of submarine warfare in WWII that is consistent with the volumes I've read over the course of my lifetime. To give you an idea of how long that is, as a kid I watched the TV series "Silent Service" and was completely fascinated with it from those days on. I was pre-school, but I still remember it.

Ducimus, if you're out there, Thank you. In reading your posts I believe we share the same fascination and appreciation for the submarine service in WWII, and I'm glad someone such as you applied it to SH4.

[Daniel Prates]

Erh, too late... he was here before you, Daniel :O:

Oooops! sorry! :oops: I was mislead by the 'popeye' looks you get when in 'sailor man' rank.

[FIREWALL]

SH3,4 and 5 can acually make the addreniline pump so much your tired after a dramatic session.

That's part of the reason you don't want to play a saved game.

Your Drained. That heavy of an immersion takes alot out of you. :yep:

[Ducimus]

Y. In the final descent the boat was comfortably holding together past 700 feet and was around 1,200 feet when it finally crushed.


Tambor class? Trust me, your boat was done before you hit 700 feet. There's a lag or time delay between when your boat is crushed (as reported in the damage control screen), and when the screen fades out and shifts the view to the death camera. In TMO you can go MUCH deeper then you'd think you could, but within reason, and within what limited research is available on deep dive excursions that occurred during the war.

However, pass that depth, and you have about 3 to 6 seconds before your crushed. Which is about as much time needed to put your head between your legs and kiss your ass goodbye. :O:

[Daniel Prates]

... put your head between your legs and kiss your ass goodbye. :O:

OMG!

:haha:

[HowFar]

Tambor class? Trust me, your boat was done before you hit 700 feet. There's a lag or time delay between when your boat is crushed (as reported in the damage control screen), and when the screen fades out and shifts the view to the death camera. In TMO you can go MUCH deeper then you'd think you could, but within reason, and within what limited research is available on deep dive excursions that occurred during the war.

However, pass that depth, and you have about 3 to 6 seconds before your crushed. Which is about as much time needed to put your head between your legs and kiss your ass goodbye. :O:

You're so right. I knew I was done at that point even though I could still look around the conning tower. I didn't bother kissing my ass goodbye because that wasn't quite how I wanted to spend my last few seconds.

The fact that a game/simulation can produce such an experience is a testement to your work. Many many thanks Ducimus. I don't take any of the mods for granted or the valuable time that their creators have put into them, but I'm especially grateful for the Trigger Maru Overhaul/RSRDC combination and the way they have reworked an otherwise frustrating program into something enjoyable with some historical accuracy to enhance the experience.

[Armistead]

I play without cams just for the real immersion. I have to keep them off, because I get to tempted to use them. It's a complete different game experience when you're stuck in the sub.

As Duci said once you pass that point of no return, you may appear to live for a lil while, but you're done. Even a few damage points can cause you to die at deeper safe depths. I use the 50% rule, if I have 50% damage and know the crush depth is 700ft in a Balao, I don't dive below 350ft.

You would be surprised the dives you can pull out of. The hard thing is keeping control of a dive when you're under attack. If you're going down, hit the P key for periscope depth. For whatever reason it will often bring you up when manual settings won't. You increased speed, but don't be afraid to go flank to control a dive. I don't know if you blew your tanks, but that works as a last option. Sometime it takes a combination of all three to get your sub headed up, but I use P first, then speed, then blow tanks.
If under attack time your ascent up as escorts make a run and the charges usually blow beneath you. Course once you're headed up, you have to stop the ascent by cutting speed or even hitting crash dive to get you going back down, but the second you start heading down you need to quicky get the dive back under control. If you're going down by the stern, usually just reversing to 2/3 will take you back down, but again once down get the dive back undercontrol. I've reached speeds of 14kts going down in a out of control dive. I find I have to stop the upward ascent at 150ft or you'll surface. If you start heading back down too fast, you may cross that crush line before you pull out.

I call this yo-yoing underwater. You may have to go up and down numerous times, eventually you may run out of compressed air. Even if you don't blow tanks changing depths uses some air, so watch it. When I'm down to my last blow and battery low, I just assume surface and fight to the death rather than head for the bottom.

Another commom mistake that you didn't make here is to make sure you go in reverse of the downward tilt. Often people take bow damage and go down by the bow but keep moving forward which takes you down faster, you have to use reverse to control a bow dive.

Much depends on damage, if you lose batteries, not good. Often I will repair those first if I know compartments are going to flood anyway. If your planes get damaged, you have to time things knowing they will react slower.

Depth charge explosions don't blind the enemies sonar. There is one mod, I think by Darkwraith that suppose to do this, but it's not part of TMO. I use it, but it's hard to tell how it works. If you have multiple escorts attacking, one could be pinging, another listening. Much depends on their crew rating, veteran escorts much harder. I edited many of mine to elite status and that's a different ballgame, they react and work together like a pack of hounds.

[HowFar]

Depth charge explosions don't blind the enemies sonar. There is one mod, I think by Darkwraith that suppose to do this, but it's not part of TMO. I use it, but it's hard to tell how it works. If you have multiple escorts attacking, one could be pinging, another listening. Much depends on their crew rating, veteran escorts much harder. I edited many of mine to elite status and that's a different ballgame, they react and work together like a pack of hounds.

I had a feeling that was the case. I thought I read somewhere that depth charges would temporarily blind enemy sonar so I tried it and the attacks only seemed to get worse. While on the topic of enemy sonar, does having the crew at battle stations have any effect on silent running? My boat was beat to hell and I had the crew at battle stations to hasten the repair work and all the while it seemed I couldn't shake the attacks.

Those are good tips on pulling out of a dive; however, in that final dive I knew there was no way out. I was done for. Using speed to slow the descent is an automatic response, likely attributable to my flying days, short lived as they were (damned economy).

The first time I blew ballast while under attack was an accident. I thought I was screwed because in the original Silent Hunter you couldn't stop the ascent once you blew the tanks. Out of desparation I hit the P key, the D key, the A key, anything I could find that had something to do with depth control and I was pleasantly suprised to find that the ascent stopped.

I'm digressing. Thanks for the feedback Armistead.

[commandosolo2009]

Yes, I wasn't too sure how much deeper to go and I was a being a little conservative, plus the fact that I had escaped so many situations up to now I felt I could do it again. I guess I was getting a little cocky. In the final descent the boat was comfortably holding together past 700 feet and was around 1,200 feet when it finally crushed.

I also wasn't sure about full speed because the ecorts sounded as if they were taking turns on me until the end wehn they all seemed to pound me at once. As one of them passed over me I didn't know if another would pick me up from short to medium range. Oh well, lessons learned...

That last barrage was incredible. It was as if they all hit me at the same time, which I think was the case because I never in the years of playing SH4 since it's initial realease have experienced anything like it. My hat's off to Ducimus and/or Lurker because this felt real. I kind of seal myself off from the world when I do this so I can really get into it. The helpless feeling as I was sinking had a definite air of realism to it. It was an experience that I can't tell my wife about because she would likely check me into some sort of rehab for subsimers, so I had to post. I fugured you guys would understand.

Ahoy matey!!! Welcome aboard and we're glad you survived the ordeal to tell us about it.. Momsen lungs are quite an invention aren't they???

In my case a real sinking by the stern happened once in Rabaul. There was this dastardly, apparently elite, DE, patrolling the shallows to port Rabaul, when I decided to floor it the minute he turns around. Bastard turns once and flashes, boom! I'm *ucked....

Anyways, do try to get Dick O'kane's Clear the Bridge and Wahoo for your library.

[Armistead]

I had a feeling that was the case. I thought I read somewhere that depth charges would temporarily blind enemy sonar so I tried it and the attacks only seemed to get worse. While on the topic of enemy sonar, does having the crew at battle stations have any effect on silent running? My boat was beat to hell and I had the crew at battle stations to hasten the repair work and all the while it seemed I couldn't shake the attacks.

Those are good tips on pulling out of a dive; however, in that final dive I knew there was no way out. I was done for. Using speed to slow the descent is an automatic response, likely attributable to my flying days, short lived as they were (damned economy).

The first time I blew ballast while under attack was an accident. I thought I was screwed because in the original Silent Hunter you couldn't stop the ascent once you blew the tanks. Out of desparation I hit the P key, the D key, the A key, anything I could find that had something to do with depth control and I was pleasantly suprised to find that the ascent stopped.

I'm digressing. Thanks for the feedback Armistead.


Most modders agree that BS has no effect on silent running, nor can the enemy hear you blow tanks. Blowing tanks should cause you to surface, but they don't. Often when under attack by mean escorts like the Type AB I'll blow tanks as it starts a run. It takes you up fast enough that his charges will fall under you.

The most important thing with cams off is sound. You will hear much better by being in the con tower and looking up. With my 5.1 speakers I get better directional sound if I look up at the ceiling and start looking in directions. You can easily tell what direction a escort is coming. I assume you can in stock, but with most mods you can hear the charges hitting the water, but much better looking up in the tower. I can then judge about how his pattern will fall. Most escorts attack from the rear, but vet to elite escorts come at you from all directions and will drop at different times. A escort attacking from the rear is easily defeated, just be deep enough and hit flank and charges will fall behind. It's when they come in from angles it gets difficult. Staying slow under attack is sure death using TMO.

You can also judge the charge pattern by the way it tosses your sub. If your sub rolls to the right, you know charges are on the left. If you're being bounced around both sides, you're in trouble.

[HowFar]

Ahoy matey!!! Welcome aboard and we're glad you survived the ordeal to tell us about it.. Momsen lungs are quite an invention aren't they???

In my case a real sinking by the stern happened once in Rabaul. There was this dastardly, apparently elite, DE, patrolling the shallows to port Rabaul, when I decided to floor it the minute he turns around. Bastard turns once and flashes, boom! I'm *ucked....

Anyways, do try to get Dick O'kane's Clear the Bridge and Wahoo for your library.

Thanks. Speaking of Momsen Lungs, it would be a nice if we could abandon ship when all is lost. Not a critical feature or a game changer, but just for the heck of it.

I have read "Clear the Bridge" many years ago. I believe it was the early '90s when I picked up a paper back copy. I loved it. I will usually pick up anything I see having to do with WWII submarines and, with that one I was not disappointed.

[HowFar]

Most modders agree that BS has no effect on silent running, nor can the enemy hear you blow tanks. Blowing tanks should cause you to surface, but they don't. Often when under attack by mean escorts like the Type AB I'll blow tanks as it starts a run. It takes you up fast enough that his charges will fall under you.

The most important thing with cams off is sound. You will hear much better by being in the con tower and looking up. With my 5.1 speakers I get better directional sound if I look up at the ceiling and start looking in directions. You can easily tell what direction a escort is coming. I assume you can in stock, but with most mods you can hear the charges hitting the water, but much better looking up in the tower. I can then judge about how his pattern will fall. Most escorts attack from the rear, but vet to elite escorts come at you from all directions and will drop at different times. A escort attacking from the rear is easily defeated, just be deep enough and hit flank and charges will fall behind. It's when they come in from angles it gets difficult. Staying slow under attack is sure death using TMO.

You can also judge the charge pattern by the way it tosses your sub. If your sub rolls to the right, you know charges are on the left. If you're being bounced around both sides, you're in trouble.

Thanks for the tips. I'm never too sure what to do as far as evasion is concerned. I've has some luck in escaping DC attacks, but it's usually do to deep silent and slow manuvering over a significant period of time. I was sunk on the very next patrol after losing the sub subject of this thread. Same thing at the same area. I was deep in a Gato and getting a little "cute" with my evasion tactics, manuvers that evidently provided them with a beacon to my location. No slow sinking this time, it was just explosions, sparks, and lights out.

I use sound much the way you do, although I wear headphones (don't want my wife to hear what I'm doing with my spare time). I agree with you on being in the conning tower, it's where I spend 100 pecent of my combat time with the exception of the maps. You can hear much better from there and I've noticed that the crew with sort of crouch when the DCs hit the water. I've been hesitant to use full speed, but I guess it makes sense since they know you're there anyway (otherwise they wouldn't be dropping DCs on you).

Thanks again for the tips. I'll try them out on my next bout with an angry escort... And I do enjoy making them angry.