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View Full Version : Libya war. When will it accomplish the removal of Gaddafi


Castout
06-13-11, 09:23 PM
At first I thought it wouldn't take long.

But from what I read and see in the news looks like the rebels are fighting with one of their hand tied to their back.

NATO though attacking Tripoli seems to be reluctant to attack Gaddafi forces elsewhere who are engaging the rebels with tanks and arty.

At this rate if things don't improve it's going to be long war and perhaps a failed gamble. You can't simply march into Tripoli with pick up trucks. Casualties will be high and with that morale will start to fall.

I'd prefer just to give them heavy weapons and let them roll into Tripoli from West and East and put a quick end to this.

The other cities that are still under Gaddafi control are only so because its resident are fearful to Gaddafi reprisals. UN took too long before intervening. But I guess it's better late than never.

The early demonstrations proved that most of Libya's population are no longer with Gaddafi. Even those in Tripoli. I can't see why the movement couldn't be speeded up with that kind of support from Libyans themselves. I think the problem is more political than military.

All in all I still believe it won't be long. But long may prove relative. What is obvious is that powerful people here seen from the local media choose to take side with Gaddafi and still believe in him.



What is happening in Yemen, Syria, Bahrain and Libya prove beyond all doubt that some rulers rule by gunpoint and consider their own people nothing more than animal or slave. That sovereignty lies not in the hand of the people but in the hands of those who govern by fear and intimidation and violence. Forget human rights, forget constitution, forget rule of law, even forget about nationhood. These people just want a whole country for themselves. Plain simple and obvious.

Yemen should be renamed Saleh land. Syria should be renamed Assad land, Bahrain should be renamed land of oppression and whimsical torture and prosecution.

If you realize that these people live under the mercy of certain individuals whimsical mood swing instead of rule of law then you must start to question why obey the law at all in the first place. If you can get away with stealing then steal, if you can get away with murder then kill. These are no civilized worlds. Being the only human in a zoo with all the beasts are dangerous ordeal. Either you kill all the beasts or you better become like them and live by the rule of the jungle and stop being decent human being.

Freiwillige
06-13-11, 11:14 PM
Have you seen this? So who is the bad guy here? They both look bad to me.

http://www.twincities.com/national/ci_18219731?source=rss&nclick_check=1

Castout
06-14-11, 12:57 AM
Yes I have. Stupid action on the part of the rebels I must say.

On the other hand, these people may have lost wife, brother, sister, mother, father or son or daughter to Gaddafi forces.

I'm not saying what they did was right but understandable though not tolerable.

Though everything could be surmised as evil or good given enough knowledge, at least on the individual level, what is going on in Libya is above all to achieve aspirations to freedom.

If it was to fight evil then doing good must be the primary mean. If it was to fight off hatred then love must become the primary mean. But it was a struggle for freedom. The freedom to live as a decent human being. You cannot break free from your oppressors by doing good alone or giving them sincere love. To give meaningful good or love you must be equal to the mind of the recipient and in the mind of the giver. In fact no one who did any good to his fellow man or offer him or her sincere love and kindness would do hat if he or she thought that the other person is beneath him or her. Even pity comes from the realization this person is like me and could be me. And if you give goodness or love to the people who oppress you, it will always be thought as merely an act of submission and nothing more and thus wasted completely.

This is the reason why God didn't tell Moses to send a rain of roses to Pharaoh, or to make his land so fertile in exchange for letting His people go. If even a holy God used force to free His own people then I can't see other way for mankind freeing themselves. Even peaceful demonstration is a display of [non violent] force.

Jimbuna
06-14-11, 02:38 AM
Well the UK have certainly shot themselves in the foot announcing to the world yesterday they are finding it difficult to cope.

Castout
06-14-11, 03:48 AM
The pro democracy movement then is better be armed to take Tripoli as soon as possible. But they can't do that without heavy weapons like tanks. Even without tanks friendly fire are still happening. Without immediate ground threat to Tripoli Gaddafi won't be willing to exit the country. Even with immediate ground threat to Tripoli he may not though I still believe he will exit given hopeless ground situation facing him.

What assured me is that even Obama has been saying Gaddafi days are numbered and that many respectable nations are willing to recognize the opposition. I mean that coming from the head of the most powerful nation will go a long way [hopefully]. The concerning fact is many US lawmakers and public do not want US involvement at all. The combination of economic crisis and a general sentiment of anti Muslim bring Obama to a a big political obstacle. He is damned if he didn't and damn if he did.

Skybird
06-14-11, 10:36 AM
Gaddafi's army is suffering constant numbers of deserters and defectors.

Optmistic assessments conclude that the strength of Gaddafi's ground forces is down to as low as one third of their former combat strength.

Number of Nato-air-on-rebel-ground-blue incidents have been radically reduced. Special ops on the ground made sure that there are stable communication links between rebel forces and NATO air. Rebels forces do not advance anymore into the line of NATO air fire without NATO having given green light.

It seems to me the strategy all in all seems to work,though slower than expected. But it seems to work. But due to the slow pace, it costs Britain, France and others much more than they anticipated.

Question to me remains if the rebels really are worth to be supported. My doubts over their "democratic and humanistic" intentions have grown in recent weeks.

All this at a time when a high-ranlking British navy officer said that the Brits are unable to defend the Fakkland islands any longer, and British pilots train French language because they need to do service on a French carrier, and leaving defence minstre Gates (US) warns Europe that America no longer has the means and the will to compensate for Europe's lacking financial invstement into defence budgets.

I forsee a falling back of US politics to more pragmatic calculations of US interventions, away from ideologic drive towards sober cost-effect calculations on a purely national vital interest. US cannot afford to serve as the world policeman anymore. And Europe claims more weight and importance than it can give substance to by its military (lack of) power.

The socalled Arab Spring, all in all, has been overestimated.

Since I have doubts over the rebels, I still strictly oppose hightech and heavy weapon dleiveries to the rebels. They won't give them back once Gaddafi is finished. And I do not like what they will be used for then, most likely: setting internal bills, supporting Islamic drives, pointing them against Western troops or Israel, smuggling them to factions hostile to the West.

Jimbuna
06-14-11, 11:20 AM
I'll only believe what the true situation is in Libya...after it happens.

STEED
06-14-11, 12:16 PM
Well the UK have certainly shot themselves in the foot announcing to the world yesterday they are finding it difficult to cope.

What about today?

Cough...High ranking Admiral...cough...six months...cough...Ark Royal...cough.

Jimbuna
06-14-11, 12:51 PM
What about today?

Cough...High ranking Admiral...cough...six months...cough...Ark Royal...cough.

Yesterday it was the highest rank in the navy....wasn't today an ex Rear Admiral?

I could be mistaken mind.

the_tyrant
06-14-11, 02:28 PM
This is just my opinion on the African wars (ivory coast, Libya, etc)
i believe in the current situation, stability ity is no.1
after stability comes prosperity, democracy etc

I don't care who wins now, just get the war over
and hopefully lower gas prices

sidslotm
06-14-11, 02:44 PM
there's no arguing with dictators, despots, facists or women leaders.

http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/1603/32632316.jpg

nikimcbee
06-14-11, 02:51 PM
To answer the thread question; October 2012.

Jimbuna
06-14-11, 03:09 PM
To answer the thread question; October 2012.

Eh? :hmmm:

nikimcbee
06-14-11, 03:15 PM
Eh? :hmmm:

Jim, what happens in the US in Nov, 2012?

:hmmm:

Jimbuna
06-14-11, 03:37 PM
Jim, what happens in the US in Nov, 2012?

:hmmm:

**** knows...an election perhaps? :hmmm: