Bad childhood I want to stop thinking about. Any ideas? [Archive]

RedMenace

06-03-11, 03:41 AM

My parents screamed and fought with each other all the time, my dad was an alcoholic and my mom was very bipolar. They divorced when I was only 9 years old, and after that I became extremely sick and started peeing blood and got diagnosed with renal failure.

I was quite the sickly child. It persisted till I was 16, when I required chemotherapy and months of intense hospitalization. I was only a kid (and then a teen) and I remember being so scared, so confused, so unsure about anything.

Now I'm 19 and I'm much better, even relatively healthy I'd say, I go to college, and I try as hard as I can to be upbeat and sociable and likeable. I've even had girlfriends!

But I've been very sad inside, and I try really hard to keep it in. Thoughts about how I grew up constantly haunt me every day. Thinking about all that time I spent and everything that happened to me in that hospital. I don't tell anyone how insecure and weak I feel, how extremely fearful I am to die young, how worthless and small I feel. I get extremely anxious about the simplest things, even if I don't show it, and I deep down don't believe I'll ever amount to anything. When I talk to people I stare them right in the eye because I'm afraid if I don't they'll realize how weak I actually am.

I have trouble finding employment because I'm not exactly the most confident guy. Even when I do feel confident, I think I come off as crazy more than anything else...

I know its popular to blame your crappy childhood nowadays on your emotional problems, but I only just recently made the connection, and I know my childhood probably damaged me in some ways. I don't want to be haunted anymore by bad memories, or at least I don't want them to get in the way of the rest of my life. What do I do?

Castout

06-03-11, 03:59 AM

Umm you've been suffering a lot and for quite some time from your story.

You need to forgive the people who you resented or still do. You must mean it.[easier said than done I know, I need to forgive some people too. In fact I'm burdened with it first and foremost because God gave me example to follow, secondly because I gave my word in one prayer minister home, that was stupid as it bonded me. What freaked me while doing so the burning candle fire was shifting in and out of space!!! No kidding, it wasn't blowing in and out but shifting in and out of existence/view rapidly and burning up the whole new thick candle in a matter of seconds while the fire shifting in and out of view rapidly in normal size!!!. I wondered if it was God doing it or some other forces. I know the God whom I worship but who knows the God that that prayer minister worships lol, but I have no evidence to the contrary]

I'd say find solace in God. Try praying even if it sounds stupid.

To be truth most people are never that useful. Their usefulness is only as far as filling their own stomach and their family's for their whole lifetime.

No one is really that useful.

I'd also suggest not to try to be something but to be your very self. That is to be a genuine person instead trying to be upbeat or likable.

I sincerely believe everyone is special. That or no one is. :DL. People are so much alike inside. The way we react, feel. We all want the best out of our time here. I think by being genuine and a good person you'll accomplish much more than trying hard to please or be accepted or being selfish and superficial.

Flaxpants

06-03-11, 04:11 AM

I know its popular to blame your crappy childhood nowadays on your emotional problems, but I only just recently made the connection, and I know my childhood probably damaged me in some ways. I don't want to be haunted anymore by bad memories, or at least I don't want them to get in the way of the rest of my life. What do I do?

Trying to find explanations for your bad feelings and apportioning 'blame' for them is a common human trait- we all do it.

But it gets us nowhere.

All that matters is the 'right now', and from what you say: "Now I'm 19 and I'm much better, even relatively healthy I'd say, I go to college, and I try as hard as I can to be upbeat and sociable and likeable. I've even had girlfriends!", sounds like you're doing ok to me. Forget the past, it really has gone.

No point at all in worrying about the future either. Just gotta get on with it! Party on!:woot:

danasan

06-03-11, 04:28 AM

Castout

06-03-11, 04:34 AM

RedMenace,

there is much truth in what Flaxpants said.

The past is finished. All that counts is the here and now and future to work on. Find yourself in real life a friend or partner you can trust on.

Do not let the past and your bad experiences rule your life for another 19 years; not even for another day.

I am pretty sure that you are on your best way right now.

danasan

People who haven't been in traumatic past life can't understand that the victim carries those traumatic experience into their life.

Be it in emotional, psychological scars or even physical ailments.

A victim needs foreclosure and forgiveness brings that. Provided that he or she has completely been freed from her traumatic experience or conditions.

People are not robots nor they have super strength to deal with their problems without difficulty nor can they just casually cut loose ties with their traumatic past.

often if mishandled their traumatic past would turn them to be the kind of people that they hate unwillingly or they destroy their own life out of their own victimization.

danasan

06-03-11, 04:42 AM

Hottentot

06-03-11, 04:49 AM

People who haven't been in traumatic past life can't understand that the victim carries those traumatic experience into their life.

I'm inclined to agree. And that is why I would suggest professional help. Not in a belittling way, but because they are usually far more qualified to help with matters like these than a group of friendly and well meaning forum writers. And besides, the two methods don't exclude each other.

RedMenace, you say you are going to college. I suppose your college offers some sort of help for students having such problems? At least ours do, I know since I'm a student myself. So if I were in your situation, my first step would be contacting them and seeing where it goes from there.

RedMenace

06-03-11, 04:50 AM

Now that I think about it... almost everyone's been through something traumatic, I guess. Everyone's probably a little jilted one way or the other, maybe I should stop thinking about myself so much.

Hottentot

06-03-11, 04:56 AM

Depends on what you consider traumatic. Some people get endless supply of drama from spilling the milk to the floor or hitting their thumb with a hammer. What you described is something completely different and you said yourself how much it bothers you. Sure, you can stop thinking about it. The same way as you can clean a house by putting all the dust under a carpet. I know how cliche it is to say something like that, but trust me: in this one instance I know what I'm talking about.

Castout

06-03-11, 05:06 AM

Sorry, I have been through almost the same childhood as he was. With brutality and all. I had never talked about it until I was 31 years old.

And got me some professional help after having a mental breakdown - almost too late.

Maybe I should have mentioned that in my first post.

Edit: Now I am 46 years and much better...

That's it. These things are never a small problem. You should know. Trying to ignore it or trying to make it small would only accumulate the problems only to explode in a destructive way later on in life and often when it is too late and after much destruction to self and to other people.

I tend to agree with Hottentot about getting professional help. And I may add to seek spiritual side of you. To find solace in God. The thing is RedMenace should not be too hard on himself. One thing for sure he's on the right track by opening up and trying to get help even by simply starting this thread. That speaks of the hope that he has within him. For that alone it shows he has the awareness and willingness to bring closure. H e wants to move on to better things and has some optimism. If victim can reflect back or talk about their traumatic experience with ease or without distress it is always a sign of healing.

RedMenace

06-03-11, 05:07 AM

Castout

06-03-11, 05:18 AM

Oh I definitely agree with you. If it was as simple as just forgetting about the past, I probably would have done it long ago.

But... there's a lot of pain in this world, you know? Lots and lots and lots.

The pain is because you're still holding on to grudge or resentment. In other words witholding forgiveness. Victims usually feel this way especially if the conditions of their victimization still persist or still being experienced on regular basis.

It helps when you know we will all successfully die and that the very people who hurt you are definitely hurt people themselves even when they appear otherwise. They are troubled people themselves and I must say lacking love and even hoping for outpouring of love from the people surrounding them. Even when it is anger or aggression that they are showing. Aggression is love misplaced and rejected after all. If you dig deep these people often explode crying. They need love and forgiveness and forgiving people who hurt them. Unfortunately only God is aware of their condition. And often only God can love them unconditionally. The God whom they never seek and who often hide Himself from them for whatever reason.

Skybird

06-03-11, 05:20 AM

The past is no more, and the future is uncertain and still not here. The only thing we have for sure, is this one present moment. Nothing exists outside of it.

The emotional pain you feel is because you stuck to things that are not any longer, and the loss you experienced when your parents disappointed you and let you down. Analysing and endlessly discussing things with your friends or your own inner voice, doe snot make it any better. It just forms these memories a nice and warm nest to settle down in.

However, it is not the things themselves that bother us and make us mourning or fearing them but it is our evaluation, our commenting, our note-giving to which we attach all the time. Like in a reflex, a memory comes up - and immediately an inner dialogue starts to flow down the channels of our inner mind. And the more often this is repeated, the deeper the channel digs its bed into our mind.

Do not try to "manage" your sadness, no human can do that, trying it only delays the healing, may hide it from the surface, but only at the price of it becoming stronger and stronger. One day you'll meet it again unexpectedly but then it easily could have turned into something that overwhelms you.

Instead of doing something, let it go. Just this: let it.

Now, for us modern hyperactive, omnipotent brainmonsters used to manage even the worst of the worst disasters and never show a sign of weakness or pessimism, this is easier said than done. And if we nevertheless let things be, and some time later tell ourselves or our friends we successfully let things go, we nevertheless are still occupied by them plus the illusion of having let them go. Our luggage has grown.

But there is something you can do, and that is to always lead your mind back to the present moment you live in, your breathing, the most imminent and immediate thing you currently do. Neither become angry with yourself nor try to fight against your mind when you realize you have drifted back into past memories again and you feel sad again. Just recall that even the next minute is most uncertain and that your current stroke of breath is the only thing that you really have. Patiently lead your drifting mind back to the present moment. Dont evaluate the inner images of the past. Refuse to comment on them once you became aware you are drifting again. When you realize you drift, gently lead yourself back to the present moment. Do it time and again. You will do it very, very often. After some time, you will have turned it into a habit. That is good. When the habit has become so omnipresent that there are no more interruptions between different times when you practice it, then you are truly free.

Pain like yours cannot be "managed". It cannot be made to turn away. It needs to heal naturally, all by itself, in the time that it takes. It will not take too much or too few time. It will just take that time that it takes, not more and not less. Seen that way, it is perfect, and always right on time. That must be a tough nut for an impatient 19 year old, eh?

The past is no more. The future is not yet to be. All life is within this present single moment. Understanding this is key to everything. In this understanding lies true and unlimited freedom. In the end, everything we believe to experience, is temporal only and cannot last, and if we try to form our felicity by making temporal things everlasting, we necessarily must get disappointed, for they will go sooner or later. This is even true with regard to love, and parents. But we do not suffer because these things are hurting us or are not in order. Things just are the way they are, and we are free to let them go and move on, or to cling to them and allow them to occupy us. In other words: we suffer because we are not in order.

Life often is said to be a voyage. So travel on and leave behind your current stay. Bon voyage!

Castout

06-03-11, 05:33 AM

I just want to add there is a mistake that most victims do

To deem their victimization too personally,

It is NOT YOU. You just happen to be there at the time. It helps if victim could at least try to detach themselves out of their victimization in a less personal way. It wasn't because of you. It was probably even not because of the perpetrator but because of conditioning prevailing in the perpetrator at the time. It was never personal even when the perpetrator think otherwise. It wasn't because of you. So don't be too hard on yourself and have a relief KNOWING it WASN'T you. it could have been anybody else. If you can, take it one step higher. Be glad it happened to you than anybody else.

RedMenace

06-03-11, 05:39 AM

-

Thanks. I needed that to calm myself down. I do let my inner dialogue talk myself into insanity. That damned mind, always trailing off.

danasan

06-03-11, 05:42 AM

I just want to add there is a mistake that most victims do

To deem their victimization too personally,

It is NOT YOU. You just happen to be there at the time... .

Thank you! I was just going to say that. It is a main progress to find exactly that fact out.

danasan

Castout

06-03-11, 05:46 AM

Thank you! I was just going to say that. It is a main progress to find exactly that fact out.

danasan

No problem :DL

Skybird

06-03-11, 05:58 AM

Thanks. I needed that to calm myself down. I do let my inner dialogue talk myself into insanity. That damned mind, always trailing off.
That damned mind is you! ;) And it just functions in the way it is designed, seen that way it functions flawlessly and proves that it is in order. What is driving you crazy is no your mind, and is not your eyes you see with and not your ears you hear with, but is your ever-rambling always self-focussed ego that always takes itself very!!! important and claims an own existence although it is just illusory by nature. It abuses this tool your mind is.

If you want to change that, change the attitude in which you meet the world, in the present moment. Staying focussed on what you do in the present, your mind then becomes clear and settled - and then finds the calmness and clearity and power to take out your ego, like sunbeams penetrate clouds and dissolve them if the sun's warmth is just powerful enough. The ego, like clouds, exists as a phenomenon, but it has no real substance of its own.

This does not mean your history will all of a sudden change, and your memories would be different or no longer be there. They will stay the same. But the pain will not have power over you again, you pick it up if you choose to have a look at it, like you take an appel in the store, and you then put it back if you have decided that it was enough and that you do not like it.

That is freedom from pain: not wishing to fight and supress pain (which is impossible since pain is inevitable part of life in a temporal world), but not getting ruled by it, but to handle it in the way you like to do, by your own terms and conditions.

the_tyrant

06-03-11, 06:09 AM

Sorry I can't help you, I'm younger than you

but looking at your sig, are you going to defcon this year?

Penguin

06-03-11, 08:29 AM

Good advices and points here raised by all of you, you guys gave some great advice, and hats off to Skybird - that's an honest compliment as I don't say this very often ;)

One thing Red, your experiences in life are what shaped you, your character, your personality, this is also something so have to keep in mind. If you were born with a silver spoon you certainly would have become a different person. So you have to accept that this past is a part of you - which does not mean that you should let it control your life or think about it any second, but no matter how you turn it, it is part of who you are.

When you exchange yourself with others who also had a bad past, you should not see it like you stated in your second post "Oh, others went through bad stuff, too and I shouldn't think too much about myself as I'm nothing special" :down:
The thing you can learn from an exchange is that the bitch called fate has no personal vendetta against you and certainly experiences from others can broaden your perspective.

Music and literature can also be a powerfull weapon to deal with these things, if you search a little, you will find many others who put their experiences into words and sounds. If you want you can pm me and I can put together a list of stuff that I can recommend.

I don't know how how much physical exercise your medical condition allows you to do. For many people it helps to "let it all out" through exhausting sports, for example Martial Arts or running. "The loneliness of the long distance runner" by Sillitoe would be one of the books in my literature list.

I somehow got into Punkrock in my late teens. For me it helped, to find people who thought in the same line - or more true: outside of them ;) And half an hour of slamdance can substitute one year at a psychiatrist :88) Most of my friends I have today and since many years are people who walked the same way. In my circle of friends, most of them are somehow damaged goods, don't want to go into too much details, but you can find any imaginable fate and experiences among them. Maybe that's why we are tight knitted and stand there for each other, maybe in some way as a family substitute, a family we have chosen by ourselves - your parents are neither your choice nor your fault.

I also want to point out again, what others here already said: value the things that you managed to accomplish by yourself. It was you who managed to find a girlfriend and it was you who earned his way into college. You did this all by yourself! Stick to this thinking, man! Others can advice you, and you should keep an open mind to it, what you seem to have, as you proved this in this thread. However in the end it is you who has do find your own way to deal with all this stuff.

frau kaleun

06-03-11, 12:21 PM

I can only echo what others here have said.

Find someone you can talk to, when you need to talk about it. And by "someone" I mean a professional counselor of some sort, the college surely has some kind of service set up to see to the needs of its students. Find out what and where it is and take advantage of it. :yep:

Armistead

06-03-11, 12:46 PM

I grew up much the same, but not ill like you. My father was an alcoholic, but I had a wonderful mother. She stayed in the marriage much longer than she should've, mostly belief in God and the church telling her to stay married. We were either rich or terribly poor depending on the year. My father was emotionally abusive, often played the victim, suicide attempts for attention, but brutal. He was the type that told mom if she ever left with us, he would kill us all. It was when mom joined support groups outside of church that she forced him out.

For years after that he lived with family. About twice a year we would get calls that he's vanished and left a note that he's gonna go take care of business, so we lived in fear. Once we got that call, guess I was 17 and I would stay up and watch cars pass the house. I was watching TV when boom, the entire outside was on fire, I saw him running away. Thank God it was mostly brick and we got out and he was arrested, but not put in jail, back to a mental hospital.

I suffered from low self esteem for years. Maybe genetics saved me, because I was like my mom. I loved to read. Although not religious now, I was then and church was a big help. The main thing I remember growing up is I swore I would never treat my family or kids like that...and I haven't.

I would tell you to take small steps. Those that say just move on don't understand the long lasting effect. You go through years of abuse when your mind is growing, it can take years to grow out of emotional abuse.

Know it's not your fault, but determine not to be like him. As wierd as it sounds you do have to constantly feed your mind positive thought and start taking chances. Not everyone is a type A, don't feel you have to be
an outward pro, but do learn to function around people. Many try to force themselves to be a outward pro when it's just not their personaility type, learn to be happy and confident with who you are.

I'm 47 now. Over the years I've made a few attempts to reconcile with my father, sadly they all failed, he's selfish beyond most. I didn't even go to his funeral.

I had a great mother. She dealt with much guilt over our childhood, but she married young and religion and marriage was big back then. She made life great for all of us emotionally as best she could. After the divorce with a few years of council and training she started several support groups and opened up two shelters for abused women living in fear. She was always there until she died about a month ago...the last 20 years I always sent her a card on fathers day, because she did both jobs.

NeonSamurai

06-03-11, 02:00 PM

This may have already been addressed in other responses.

My advice, as someone in the field is this. First off, I suggest that you learn to stop ruminating about the past (obsessively thinking about it). It is never a good thing to be thinking about it for very long, and will just lower your own feelings. When your mind starts to drift in that direction, refocus it on something else, like good past memories, or things that are going well in your life.

Second, try this as an exercise. Sit down and make a list of all the positive things about yourself, who you are, and where you are in life. Focus on the positive aspects of your life, and find ways of improving the more negative aspects.

Third, don't force yourself to be overly sociable. Everyone is different, some are very extroverted, others are very introverted, most are somewhere in the middle. Now conversely I do not suggest locking yourself away (this is rarely good for your own morale), but pushing yourself too much to be sociable is not good either.

Fourth and last for now, you are probably underappraising how other people are. Truth is most people tend to be quite insecure, and have issues and problems. Everyone wears masks to conceal these vulnerabilities, and may even pretend to be something they are not. Lots of people also did not have great childhoods either (I certainly didn't), and we all have had damaging experiences.

Anyhow my suggestion is do some research into positive psychology/thinking, perhaps also CBT (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy), though that is not exactly do it yourself. See if you can work on bringing yourself up a bit. At the moment I do not get the impression that your problems are severe enough to warrant intervention by a third party (therapy/counseling), but you may wish to, if these memories are causing you serious distress or impacting your life.

With memories there is no magic button to get rid of them, and the more you access those memories (by remembering them) the more easily they are remembered. So work on your own self discipline and learn to intercept and halt the re-remembering.

As for the religious stuff others mentioned. Well if you are a believer already, it can help. If you are not, trying to find god will probably not accomplish anything for you.

Howard313

06-03-11, 02:19 PM

Firstly, you are very brave for posting this thread.

Secondly, I had quite a nasty childhood myself, although I won't go into it I can relate to you in that way.

My best advice is simple, put the past behind you and focus on the present and future. I know that's easier said than done, hell, I still get kept up at night from time to time remembering my childhood. Experience has taught me that too much free time gives me time to let my mind wonder and usually end up thinking about the past. So if you don't have one I suggest getting a hobby or two. Spending time with friends and family is also a great way to forget the past, even if it's only for a little while.

Sadly, there is no magical cure for removing bad memories, and odds are they'll probably stick with you forever. But you can at least dull them out.

Good Luck!

Onkel Neal

06-03-11, 02:34 PM

Hey buddy, a childhood has a huge impact on you, don't discount it. You have friends here, even though we may disagree or squabble occasionally. Keep increasing your self-awareness, work on your strengths, and stay positive. Force of will counts for a lot, just keep developing that muscle.

The past is no more, and the future is uncertain and still not here. The only thing we have for sure, is this one present moment. Nothing exists outside of it.

The emotional pain you feel is because you stuck to things that are not any longer, and the loss you experienced when your parents disappointed you and let you down. Analysing and endlessly discussing things with your friends or your own inner voice, doe snot make it any better. It just forms these memories a nice and warm nest to settle down in.

However, it is not the things themselves that bother us and make us mourning or fearing them but it is our evaluation, our commenting, our note-giving to which we attach all the time. Like in a reflex, a memory comes up - and immediately an inner dialogue starts to flow down the channels of our inner mind. And the more often this is repeated, the deeper the channel digs its bed into our mind.

Do not try to "manage" your sadness, no human can do that, trying it only delays the healing, may hide it from the surface, but only at the price of it becoming stronger and stronger. One day you'll meet it again unexpectedly but then it easily could have turned into something that overwhelms you.

Instead of doing something, let it go. Just this: let it.

Now, for us modern hyperactive, omnipotent brainmonsters used to manage even the worst of the worst disasters and never show a sign of weakness or pessimism, this is easier said than done. And if we nevertheless let things be, and some time later tell ourselves or our friends we successfully let things go, we nevertheless are still occupied by them plus the illusion of having let them go. Our luggage has grown.

But there is something you can do, and that is to always lead your mind back to the present moment you live in, your breathing, the most imminent and immediate thing you currently do. Neither become angry with yourself nor try to fight against your mind when you realize you have drifted back into past memories again and you feel sad again. Just recall that even the next minute is most uncertain and that your current stroke of breath is the only thing that you really have. Patiently lead your drifting mind back to the present moment. Dont evaluate the inner images of the past. Refuse to comment on them once you became aware you are drifting again. When you realize you drift, gently lead yourself back to the present moment. Do it time and again. You will do it very, very often. After some time, you will have turned it into a habit. That is good. When the habit has become so omnipresent that there are no more interruptions between different times when you practice it, then you are truly free.

Pain like yours cannot be "managed". It cannot be made to turn away. It needs to heal naturally, all by itself, in the time that it takes. It will not take too much or too few time. It will just take that time that it takes, not more and not less. Seen that way, it is perfect, and always right on time. That must be a tough nut for an impatient 19 year old, eh?

The past is no more. The future is not yet to be. All life is within this present single moment. Understanding this is key to everything. In this understanding lies true and unlimited freedom. In the end, everything we believe to experience, is temporal only and cannot last, and if we try to form our felicity by making temporal things everlasting, we necessarily must get disappointed, for they will go sooner or later. This is even true with regard to love, and parents. But we do not suffer because these things are hurting us or are not in order. Things just are the way they are, and we are free to let them go and move on, or to cling to them and allow them to occupy us. In other words: we suffer because we are not in order.

Life often is said to be a voyage. So travel on and leave behind your current stay. Bon voyage!

Yeah, that covers it pretty well. :yeah:

CCIP

06-03-11, 03:11 PM

Mate, trauma is a tough thing, at any age, but especially from childhood. Don't ignore it and don't keep it to yourself and try to just 'tough it out' - toughing it out works when you just put it aside and temporarily block it out by focusing on the task at hand. But it will always, ALWAYS come back, don't even think it won't. The fact is, even when you've dealt with it and are way better, it's still there - don't get into the mindset that you can erase it, but also don't get into the mindset that it's all there is. It's just another thing in life.

And yeah, it's very hard to appreciate for anyone who's not been through it. And it's not the moments when you're really sad or angry that grind you down in the end - those are actually the moments that can help you get it out. It's the fact that it's there in the back of your mind, ready to set you off, that really gets you.

My biggest piece of advice is a) get help; b) look at your life in terms of the bigger whole - not just that one thing. Relatively recently, I crashed hard on much more recent trauma, and frankly I didn't even realize how bad it was until a couple of years later when I stepped back and was horrified at how much I'd let it dominate my life. The one thing that really helped is several months of counseling, during which a deeper underlying childhood trauma also emerged and helped me understand my current problems much better. But it wasn't like they magically figured out the answer to everything though, nor was there any magic pills or instant realizations involved. What counted was that I got out of the mental block(s) caused by trauma that would send me on a loop and force me to ignore the rest of what my life was really about. And gradually I was able to step back and see the bigger picture - as, as Skybird says, to see and take joy in the present and not past or future.

yubba

06-03-11, 07:41 PM

I feel for you bro, been there too, best thing you can do is turn the rear veiw mirrors down, get your nose into the wind and don't look back, you got a lot ahead of you.

THE_MASK

06-03-11, 09:36 PM

Try to find a good phyciatrist , they can help you and there are many drugs that help but its just finding the right ones (not illegal ones) . Anything else i could say would be just my opinion and not fact ..

NeonSamurai

06-03-11, 10:47 PM

I'm not aware of any drugs that can help with bad/traumatic memories. I would suggest a therapist over a Psychiatrist as few Psychiatrists do therapy (which is what you would need). I don't think any drugs will help, other than maybe an SSRI, but I am quite doubtful you are having serotonin problems (ie major depression), or you wouldn't be posting about your problems.

Skybird

06-04-11, 04:04 AM

Hold your horses gentlemen. No need to talk about pharmaceutics and therapists here. From what he wrote, I do not see RM as a candidate for psychotherapy or medication. I also do not see him as somebody actually suffering from depression right now. Though he might be vulnerable to it - like we all are, to varying degrees.

And all-time-high-pills I reject for principal reasons, always.

It's a bit en vogue to always call either for drugs or for psychotherapy these days. Last but not least that is becasue psychology is pressing real hard to convince the public it were an indispensable actor that must claim representation in each and every field. But the psychology they taught us at university is anything but that. It has its purposes when it is useful, but these I limit to a much wider degree than psychology itself does.

Prescription of drugs is done far too uncritical today.

On a saidenote, a study has raised voices in the EU, they now consider to add lithium into the drinking water to decrease suicide rates in the EU. :dead: Can somebody drop a couple of bombs onto Brussel, please.

Castout

06-04-11, 04:49 AM

Like Penguin said a sport hobby or martial arts study in the long run would be beneficial to both the body and the mind. It would help with discipline too which in turn helps you to focus and calm the state of mind, making you stronger outside and inside.

This life is a mind game actually don't let anyone or anything play with or dictate yours. Be the master of the game, all you need to have is the will, willingness to create the initiative, courage and a good sense of humor to even laugh at your own situation or yourself when necessary. Don't live in fear of anything or of failure, after all we will ALL successfully die in the end. All of us from ones deemed most successful to the most unfortunate people imaginable. Being thought highly by mankind would be as meaningless as being thought lowly to the dead. It's between the creator and the dead in the end and nothing comes in between or remain hidden to the creator.

danasan

06-04-11, 05:02 AM

Castout

06-04-11, 05:09 AM

Yes, martial arts study is a good point to start from. As I am an older guy, I have been studying T'ai Chi Chuan for about 15 years now.

It is a lot about "meditation in motion". So you are thinking about nothing else but the next move. After a while of practice, you can easily switch your mind to that state under any condition.

It is more or less practical in any trainees health condition. It depends on your master whether you learn martial arts or the other aspects more intensive.

My meditation is when I jog. I think of nothing else while I jog. For some people it could be dancing. Whatever activity that you enjoy that makes you to forget everything else but the activity and quiet down your mind to be aware of the 'now' is meditation.

You're very young only 19. All 19 years old should start their world conquest planning! :03: Time is theirs and thus the whole world!

Skybird

06-04-11, 06:10 AM

Tai Chi, it is said.

I know it a bit, but from a psycho-practical point of view for Western trainees embedded in the usual Western lifestyle, may I offer an alternative.

That is Kum Nye. Deriivng from the Tibetan tradition and adapted to especially the Western cultural context and lifestyle by Tartang Tulku (a Lama/Rinpoche living in the US and teaching at universities, colleges, as well as cooperating with business and sciences), it avoids the ballet-like choreographies that can trick the newcomer to Tai Chi into just repeating robotic sequences and thinking that this is what it ius about: copying. Tai Chi can lead terribly wrong if you do not have a real good teacher. I do not devalue it if you have a good teacher, but good techers are rare - very rare, for this and mediation in general, believe me, there are plenty of pseudo-gurus instead.

The Kum Nye form developed by Tartang Tulku, is working without siuch seqeunces, but with quite ordinary movements - but these done in super slow motion: raise the arm and let it sink - and take 5 minutes for it. Enormous muscle stress and periods of deep muscle relief go in sequence, it reminds a bit of principles from Wilhelm Reich and Alexander Lowen (body-focussed psychoanalysis). I have worked with Kum Nye and Zazen in sequence when giving meditation courses, and saw it being embraced by people easily.

However, the method is almost unknown, and thus it may hard to find a course, though it should be easier in America than in europe, since Tartang Tulku is better known there. But it is as effective, but much easier to learn. Some of it's many exercises equal heavy sports, in their physical demand.

To learn more about what it is and what it does, why not try a book for information. In German, there is only one available (last time I checked), but if you enter "Kum Nye" at American Amazon, you find several entries, for example:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=kum+nye&x=0&y=0

From a teacher'S point of view, I am a great fan of combining Shamata and Vipassyana (relaxed awareness and focussed concentration) meditation, as well as combining mental and body-focussed meditations.

danasan

06-04-11, 06:34 AM

Skybird,

that was an important point you mentioned about teacher. I was lucky to have a female master at the age of 75 who was still learning after 35 years of practise, as she said.

I have done some writing about traditional T'ai Chi Chuan and its situation in the western world a couple of years ago.

May I point out that it is essential to have a good teacher whenever the musculoskeletal system is heavily involved. Otherwise more damage than anything else can be done.

I think we should not go too far into details but give him some ideas from which he can possibly choose from, or find anything else that suits him. After all, we are all individuals having individual needs.

@ Skybird: Maybe you are interested in reading this: edited out for not working(German language)

Skybird

06-04-11, 07:08 AM

Skybird,

that was an important point you mentioned about teacher. I was lucky to have a female master at the age of 75 who was still learning after 35 years of practise, as she said.
Zen mind: beginner'S mind, always. ;)

May I point out that it is essential to have a good teacher whenever the musculoskeletal system is heavily involved. Otherwise more damage than anything else can be done.
That is true for any form of meditation as well. There is a need for competent teachers and teachings, the possibilities to go wrong or get stuck are endless.

But good teachers are very, very rare. That people from my own old branch, psychology, claim to do the same with their psychological techniques, while obviously not knowing what they are talking about whan comparing that with true meditation, is not really helpful and does not make things any better.

I think we should not go too far into details but give him some ideas from which he can possibly choose from, or find anything else that suits him. After all, we are all individuals having individual needs.
(http://www.dict.cc/englisch-deutsch/system.html)
Cannot say if he is on a real quest for freedom. But people on a spiritual search often said that they did not find their master or teachers themselves, but got found once they were ready to get found.

Skybird

06-04-11, 07:11 AM

Your link sends me into an endless loop of advertisement being ripplefired at me. Clicking download leads to a blanks creen, and then the bombardement begins.

danasan

06-04-11, 07:21 AM

NeonSamurai

06-04-11, 08:02 AM

Hold your horses gentlemen. No need to talk about pharmaceutics and therapists here. From what he wrote, I do not see RM as a candidate for psychotherapy or medication. I also do not see him as somebody actually suffering from depression right now. Though he might be vulnerable to it - like we all are, to varying degrees.

No he doesn't need therapy at this point from what I have read (as I said in my previous post), unless these memories are causing serious distress or quality of life issues, which then would require therapy, not drugs. Also like I said I don't think he is a candidate for clinical depression, or he wouldn't be posting here telling us about his problems. My point was more that issues like this are better treated by therapy (like CBT) rather than psychopharmaceuticals.

Skybird

06-04-11, 10:07 AM

Sorry for causing trouble, that is my mediafire - account with a .pdf on it. Never heard about trouble so far. Well, you disabled PM. I try to put it elsewhere...

Sorry again.

Edit: Far to large to put it into a separate post, no web space offered by provider. I guess it has to do with browser and / or other software.

At the end it is not worth to create another account elsewhere.

www.mediafire.com/danasan (http://www.mediafire.com/danasan)
Don't worry, it is not the first time mediafire gives me trouble. Maybe their advertising scheme is unusually aggressive, and that does not go well with my system which I have tailored to be unusually supressive and tight in security settings.

kiwi_2005

06-04-11, 11:01 AM

If psychologist and general doctors stopped issuing out anti depressant pills to patients who come to them with a sad story we would have less depressed people in the world. Okay if your suffering from bipolar or maniac depression and bordering on suicide some form of medication is needed to keep you under control but doctors are too quick to hand out to patients anti depressants for any reason. Your not feeling happy can't sleep, anxiety attack whatever and your be handed a subscription for Prozac where your end up feeling like a lump of concrete for the next 6 months.

I read of a study in the UK they did over 3 months with patients that were long term depression sufferers some taking medication for 5yrs or more. They were all put on this new anti depression pill over the period taking one pill in the morning and one in the evening everyday 7 days a week. At the end of the 3 month trial all the patients agreed with the new pill some even claiming they no longer feeling depressed. They all wanted to be put on this medication.

The pill was sugar. There was no new anti depressant pill. That sugar pill cured some. Its just all in the mind.

They could of been given chocolate covered M&Ms but told this is the new anti depressant pill we're testing and the outcome would of still been the same. These people may have suffered from depression n the short term but they were so dependent on the drug that they believe without taking it they would not be able to function like a normal person. It was all in their heads. There is a well known piano teacher who lives up our street and has been on anti depressants for 22yrs, who according to her sister there is nothing wrong with her but she believes if she doesn't take this pill she will fall deeper into that hole she created in her mind.

The best fix for depression or anxiety is to head down to your gym and lift weights or do some form of cardio exercise for a few hours each day. Or if exercise is not your thing just keep busy. IMO.

@ OP sorry for going a bit of topic. I wish you well like some have said here try and keep busy, go down to the gym and do a workout get that adrenaline rush its good for the mind body and soul. All the best.

Takeda Shingen

06-04-11, 11:28 AM

frau kaleun

06-04-11, 12:10 PM

kiwi_2005

06-04-11, 12:35 PM

As a student of the martial arts, I can agree that it is a wonderful exercise for mind and body. However, it is not an elixir for all of life's problems, nor will it magically give you inner peace. If you are thinking of taking it up, it is a very good thing to do and is very rewarding so long as you do not expect it to miraculously wash away your personal demons. That will not happen.

From my experience it helped. Physically well being means a clear mind also. Prozac just clogs up the mind makes it all cloudy you don't think you just sit and ponder about nothing really your a lump of concrete which in their reasoning this is suppose to calm you? And fix that so called chemical imbalance in your brain that has triggered depression?!?. Problem is people become addicted to this lump of concrete reaction. I know I did. I had a bad car accident in early 2000 where I became depressed not long after, the doctors told me this is normal and put me on aropax a lighter form of anti depressant but that made me constipated :damn: & my smoking and drinking coffee tripled. Didn't do any good for me. So prozac was next - welcome to the lump of concrete lifestyle, doing nothing, thinking about nothing & being very talkative. Just a legal high.

I'll never forget the time where I was in town at the post office filling out a form where staff member at the teller asked me my name and I couldn't remember my name, I went um.... stared at her which only made her feel a little embarrassed or paranoid then I had to open my wallet and look at my ID card to tell her my name! :rotfl2:I see the funny side of it now but back then it wasn't funny. I was so angry and embaressed it didn't help that the room was full of customers either that I went home got all the prozac and flushed them down the toilet. Went straight to bed cause I was so depressed and tired from what just happened :DL that I slept for two days straight. I then went back into town and sign up with the gym for 12months and the rest is history.

Here's also what helped me apart from the rigorous weight training I put myself through was positive thinking. The physical to get the body in good heath and the positive thinking to help the mind. Go hand in hand.

Think Positive - (you ain't going to be positive on anti depressants)

Never doubt or put yourself down - ( you will doubt and put yourself down on anti depressants)

Make a goal in your life and try and reach that goal start off small goals that take a day or a week to complete & reward yourself when you have reached your goal then move on to another goal. If you fail at reaching your goal don't blame yourself were all human and make mistakes try again.

Ignore what others think of you, stay away from people who are always talking about doom and gloom or just plain negative - downers. Hang out with friends even if it means making new friends and dumping the old, who are positive thinking.

Believe in yourself .

Work towards losing the resentment and guilt if any.

Positive thinking and exercise are a great cure for any illness of the mind.

Skybird

06-04-11, 12:43 PM

As a student of the martial arts, I can agree that it is a wonderful exercise for mind and body. However, it is not an elixir for all of life's problems, nor will it magically give you inner peace. If you are thinking of taking it up, it is a very good thing to do and is very rewarding so long as you do not expect it to miraculously wash away your personal demons. That will not happen.
Exactly.

I find it useful to differ between to kinds of "martial arts".

The one is either focussed on the purpose of practical self-defence (for example women in police-run courses), or is focussed on sports, like boxing or fencing is, or is focussed on championships and tournaments. Often, it is a combination of all these factors.

The other is when the practice of a technique is accompanied by an inner change, a certain attitude one is taking on life, and the world, and the surprises it brings. This is not about winning trophies at championships, but this is Bushido, this is a way of life, an inner attitude of how to meet life and death. And that this may point at very different directions you can already see in that the word "samurai" means "servant". Originally, "samurai" was not limited to serving the landlord exclusively , but the community and it's weak. It reminds quite a lot of the rules and ideals of the feudal elites of European knighthood, as it were meant originally: to protect and to serve, to help the weak and to defend the helpless.

It is fine to do the first way, there is nothing to say against it. But one needs to see that it is very different from what the second is about. And usually, the second is not what you get taught in sports schools and self defence courses. There might be exceptions from the rule - but as I said, good teachers on these things are very rare. In case of the first understanbding, you focus on yourself, on your interest, on your ego. In case of the latter, you learn to go beyond your ego, to serve others, the focus is not on your interest , but on the need of the other. That is quite a difference. Trophies are for sport athletes. Bushido is for warriors.

What I absolutely cannot stand is that kind of books that try to combine martial arts principles or "golden Samurai rules" with business practices to overcome and destroy the competition and become dominant within a market segement. According books I remember to have been quite popular in the early and mid-90s. To me, this always was kind of an abuse, the tempting, persuading path to the dark side of the force. :) Bushido is not for conquering the world. Bushido is for mastering oneself and serving the communal good.

Or to remind of an old famous Zen story: you can become a swoird master - without ever having touched a sword or knowing how to swing it. The art of the sword is something that lies beyond the blade.

Skybird

06-04-11, 01:01 PM

Positive thinking (...) are a great cure for any illness of the mind.
No, it is a cure maybe for the depressed mood. But depression is something different, while changing moods are natural, and are with us all life. You cannot cure depression by telling the patient he should think positive". It is beyond his means. That is a characteristic of depression. The battries are empty. And if you load them up beyoind the zero mark, it could be that the plus in energy is used by the patient to open the window and jump out from 10th floor. That'S why one needs to be extremely careful in treatement of depression with chemical drugs. The patient may give the impression that he is improving, that he feels better - anbd suddenly he commits suicide - because before he did not even had the energy to commit suicide.

Optimism is nice as long as it does not cliud your sense of realism. Optimism alone is no strategy. I am in that campo thinking that people do not want to be happy -. they want a reaosn to be happy, then the feeling of happiness comes all by itself. For acording reasons, I am sceptical about what is called the technique of "positive thinking". It does not adress an underlaying course for somebody's feeling, but just tells him to wear a mask and hide his real face from himself. I have not ever seen somebody beeing able to truly find fulfillment in only "poositive thinking". Buzt I nhave seen quite a lot of people how did pratcice posoitve thinking (thgere are even books on it, can you beloieve it) - and then one day got caught by their shadows again and crashed hard on the tough floor of reality.

Optimism with a strong sense of realism, fine. But this technique of positive thinking? Thanks, not for me, not with me, and always without me. It solves nothing, and never adresses the reason for probolems, if there are problems. At best it buys time by ignoring them as long as possible. Or it leads to shifting symptoms, which then reminds of the same problem for several therapeutical contexts qhere behaviourist concepts get tried exclusively. Just manipulating the black box without caring for what goes on inside, often is just not enough.

Pisces

06-04-11, 03:01 PM

(clipped)... Post #13...
What he said! :yep:

Pisces

06-04-11, 05:09 PM

No, it is a cure maybe for the depressed mood. But depression is something different, while changing moods are natural, and are with us all life. You cannot cure depression by telling the patient he should think positive". It is beyond his means. That is a characteristic of depression. The battries are empty. And if you load them up beyoind the zero mark, it could be that the plus in energy is used by the patient to open the window and jump out from 10th floor. That'S why one needs to be extremely careful in treatement of depression with chemical drugs. The patient may give the impression that he is improving, that he feels better - anbd suddenly he commits suicide - because before he did not even had the energy to commit suicide.

Optimism is nice as long as it does not cliud your sense of realism. Optimism alone is no strategy. I am in that campo thinking that people do not want to be happy -. they want a reaosn to be happy, then the feeling of happiness comes all by itself. For acording reasons, I am sceptical about what is called the technique of "positive thinking". It does not adress an underlaying course for somebody's feeling, but just tells him to wear a mask and hide his real face from himself. I have not ever seen somebody beeing able to truly find fulfillment in only "poositive thinking". Buzt I nhave seen quite a lot of people how did pratcice posoitve thinking (thgere are even books on it, can you beloieve it) - and then one day got caught by their shadows again and crashed hard on the tough floor of reality.

Optimism with a strong sense of realism, fine. But this technique of positive thinking? Thanks, not for me, not with me, and always without me. It solves nothing, and never adresses the reason for probolems, if there are problems. At best it buys time by ignoring them as long as possible. Or it leads to shifting symptoms, which then reminds of the same problem for several therapeutical contexts qhere behaviourist concepts get tried exclusively. Just manipulating the black box without caring for what goes on inside, often is just not enough.Skybird, please fly a bit lower. Your radio-link is suffering data corruption. ;)

But I quite agree with this message also. I have a tendency to think negatively, which I very much like to do less. Since it is nothing less than a vicious cycle and a self-fullfilling prophecy. Think bad of yourself, and you'll believe it and act like it. However, only seeing the positive side in things and outcomes doesn't ring right with me either. As all in life, things should return and find a balance. So does the way you think. My 2 cents. My 2 precious cents that is. ;)

Skybird

06-04-11, 05:53 PM

Skybird, please fly a bit lower. Your radio-link is suffering data corruption. ;)

Hm?

What you mean? In my last post, I commented from a clinical psychological perspective. The difference between low mood and depression, is an important one: the first is a natural thing, the latter is a very underhanded "disease" that is potentially life-threatening. The danger of carelessly "re-energizing" depressive patients and enabling them to commit suicide, is a big threat every practitioner in a psychiatric hospital is aware of, and every student gets warned of. My criticsm of black-box-behaviourism and positive thinking is shared in many different psychotherapeutical schools. What I said on that people do not want to be happy, but want a reason to be happy and then become happy all by themselves, is an opinion by Victor Frankl, founder of socalled Logotherapy and initiated by former experiences he had when being in a KZ.

Where the porblem somebody has, is more an inmstrumental one, behaviopristic methods and NLP and such can work well. Where the probelm of the person in question is based on "sense" and "meaning" or unspecified causes, these things are nbot necessarily the fiurst and best choice, and symptom shift is a big problem for them. It means that somebody seems to answer to a therapy, and his initial symptoms go away - just to make room for other, new symptoms, because the origin and the underlaying problem have not been adressed.

Pisces

06-04-11, 06:02 PM

Hm?

What you mean?
...A lot of typos. ;)

Skybird

06-04-11, 06:06 PM

A lot of typos. ;)

Oh. :haha: You'll get used to it. ;)

I'm a speed-typer. Unfortunately. :D Because I never correctly learned to type even at normal speed.

Forget my above reply then. Could I know that somebody would complain about something so profane like - typos...??? :woot:

kiwi_2005

06-04-11, 08:17 PM

No, it is a cure maybe for the depressed mood. But depression is something different, while changing moods are natural, and are with us all life. You cannot cure depression by telling the patient he should think positive". It is beyond his means. That is a characteristic of depression. The battries are empty. And if you load them up beyoind the zero mark, it could be that the plus in energy is used by the patient to open the window and jump out from 10th floor. That'S why one needs to be extremely careful in treatement of depression with chemical drugs. The patient may give the impression that he is improving, that he feels better - anbd suddenly he commits suicide - because before he did not even had the energy to commit suicide.

Optimism is nice as long as it does not cliud your sense of realism. Optimism alone is no strategy. I am in that campo thinking that people do not want to be happy -. they want a reaosn to be happy, then the feeling of happiness comes all by itself. For acording reasons, I am sceptical about what is called the technique of "positive thinking". It does not adress an underlaying course for somebody's feeling, but just tells him to wear a mask and hide his real face from himself. I have not ever seen somebody beeing able to truly find fulfillment in only "poositive thinking". Buzt I nhave seen quite a lot of people how did pratcice posoitve thinking (thgere are even books on it, can you beloieve it) - and then one day got caught by their shadows again and crashed hard on the tough floor of reality.

Optimism with a strong sense of realism, fine. But this technique of positive thinking? Thanks, not for me, not with me, and always without me. It solves nothing, and never adresses the reason for probolems, if there are problems. At best it buys time by ignoring them as long as possible. Or it leads to shifting symptoms, which then reminds of the same problem for several therapeutical contexts qhere behaviourist concepts get tried exclusively. Just manipulating the black box without caring for what goes on inside, often is just not enough.

That's what a psychologist would say. And fare enough.

Your changing you moody thoughts into good thoughts your not ignoring them at all if importantly you are recognising you do have problems. With medication it just clouds you mind and numbs you. Could say the same with children who suffer from ADHD just give them ritalin during their children hood life & watch them go from ritalin to anti depressants when they are adults. No cure. They pretty much saying hey your messed up in the head we are going to slow down your days and cloud your mind so later on in your life when you turn adult you wont become a burden to society. Here take a pill. :dead: But a psychologist knows best.

And the like, there is no cure for the depressed person this way it prolongs the depression and fools them into thinking they are getting the right help. As I said for the seriously ill like bipolar or manic its there to keep them from visiting that dark hole it wont cure them though but neither will positive thinking. I'm talking of those who wake up one morning and are depressed or suffer from it after an event/accident in their lives that changed their comfort zone - no need to be a sheep and rush off to the doctors to grab some meds, learn to be master over your mind not a slave to it. Positive thinking take control of your moods & exercise.

TheGreatHonker

06-05-11, 12:39 AM

I've had a pretty ----ty childhood to, and though I do not know your own views on my suggestions, nor this forums in general. There are two things that have helped immensely helped me cope with the past.

Metal, as in the music, and marijuana.
I know some may object to this, and that it is only a temporary solution, but I am being honest in saying that it helps.

I will also be honest in saying that meddling with drugs while depressed can lead you down a very bad path. Whatever you do, stay away from pills, and don't smoke to much. When you smoke to much you build up a tollerance and become bored of weed. When you become bored of weed, you look to harder substances to provide relief.

But whatever you do, stay the hell away from pills.

There is one "healthy" way that I can suggest which I find works.
Try hiking. Just go out in the woods, and be one with nature or whatever.
I learned more about life working on a trail crew and living sober in the woods for 5 weeks then I have in my entire life.

Skybird

06-05-11, 02:34 AM

But whatever you do, stay the hell away from pills.

That is too far-leaning at the other side of extremes. Drugs are not like drugs, there are good ones, there are bad ones, and there are very good ones. And they can be of help in case of serious falls, or people balancing on the borderline between just a bad mood and falling into a depression. Some drugs will take away the pressure something applies. That "something" does not go away from the pill. You realise that it is still there - but you no longer must obey to it pushing your mood into one direction, you can remain more neutrals, and calm. That is a great help for therapy or even just recovering from a real low, becasue it enables you in the first to even deal with your life again without for example constantly panicking. Good psycho medications will leave you almost unaware of that you take them. They do not solve your issues, but give you the chance to look at them.

Especially with depressions and people with fears or being in danger to fall into a real depression, this cannot be overestimated. Depressions are one of the most wicked and underhanded "diseases" I know of. And the joke is that they are an infectous disease. Unfortunately, many psychologists would also agree on that often it is no joke at all. One depressive patient could bring down a whole family.

Don'T be too easy with pills, especially if it is just a prescription on demand by your normal doctor you have seen once over something, and he just says "Here is your Valium, here is your Prozac, now raise and walk." But to condemn them in general also is irresponsible. They can be a blessing.

The trick is to differ between the good and the bad ones, and to use them as little as possible and responsible.

However, I agree on the nature part. Being in nature, for a downed mood it is a healing factor in itself, I find. It also helps to settle a troubled mind and to come back to one'S senses.

danasan

06-05-11, 05:08 AM

RedMenace

06-14-11, 03:40 PM

RedMenace did not post anything within the last two days. I have not the skills to interpret his posting habits and his older posts. But from what I can see, I hope he is fine at the moment and soon back to report.

OK, this (his) thread can' t replace real life' s communication, but I am sure he will always find someone here to talk to.

danasan

Ha! I AM fine. Life floats on, and I'll still float on with it.

Thank you all for your support and kind words. I wouldn't lie, a lot of what I've read has truly made me feel much calmer.

Everyone spends half their life feeling sad, I guess the trick is to not spend the other half feeling sad about your sadness. :O:

(which of course like all things is easier said than done:yawn:)

frau kaleun

06-14-11, 06:52 PM

One thing I remember about growing up in a severely dysfunctional situation is that I always thought I was the *only* one whose family was such a mess, who was going through the stuff I was going through.

Having one parent who exerted a lot of pressure to "keep it to yourself" like it was something to be ashamed of, and I would be harshly judged for it, didn't help. In all my childhood I think I only had two, maybe three friends (and probably no more than one at a time over the years) who knew some or most of what my home life was like. One or two teachers got an inkling occasionally, usually when the you-know-what hit the fan in a way that couldn't be swept under the rug.

It wasn't until I was well into my adult years that I finally let down my guard and really started telling it like it was (from my perspective, anyway). And I found that - and this was such a big deal I can't even tell you - OTHER PEOPLE HAVE SUCKY FAMILIES. It's not just me, not just us... the more open you are about things the more likely you are to find out that someone you know has been through the same stuff, or knows someone who has, and the notion that there's some kind of "perfect family" that everyone else has and you don't goes away. It's not something you even realize you believed until you don't believe it any more, lol.

So... hang in there. It can and does get better for a lot of folks like us (and there are probably more of us than we will ever know). :salute: