Justices Uphold Law Penalizing Hiring of Illegal Immigrants

[Gerald]

WASHINGTON — The Supreme Court on Thursday upheld an Arizona law that imposes harsh penalties on businesses that hire illegal immigrants.

The 5-to-3 decision amounted to a green light for vigorous state efforts to combat the employment of illegal workers. The majority opinion, written by Chief Justice John G. Roberts on behalf of the court’s five more conservative members, noted that Colorado, Mississippi, Missouri, Pennsylvania, Tennessee, Virginia and West Virginia had recently enacted laws similar to the one at issue in the case.

The decision did not directly address a second, more recent Arizona law that in some circumstances requires police there to question people they stop about their immigration status. The United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit blocked enforcement of that law in April, and the case may reach the Supreme Court soon.

The challenge to the older Arizona law that was the subject of Thursday’s decision was brought by a coalition of business and civil liberties groups, with support from the Obama administration. They said the law, the Legal Arizona Workers Act, conflicted with federal immigration policy.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/27/us/27scotus.html?hp


Note: Published: May 26, 2011

[AVGWarhawk]

We do that in the state of MD. We also give money to illegals for college tuition because the parents of said illegal students pay taxes. Well wait a minute..if the illegals are working in MD and paying taxes this means the business owner is subject to arrest. :hmmm: Hmmmm....I just love how the spineless MD governor dances around laws. The great state of MD. Just dumber then a box of rocks. It's more than you can imagine...if you have no imagination at all. :doh:

[tater]

The notion that any illegals pay enough taxes to even matter is at best dubious.

I'd bet money that overall illegals pay in less in taxes than they get in benefits, and almost no illegals make enough to pay a "fair share" of the tax burden (a fair share means a per capita share of the total tax revenue per family member).

What I fond most annoying about things like in-state tuition for illegals is that legal citizens from out of state pay more. An illegal is from out f state, they are from out of country. They should never get in-state tuition as they do here in NM.

[Platapus]

This is the way to handle illegal immigration. Punish the American companies that hire them. In other words, enforce the existing laws.

Only if the punishment of American companies does not stem the flow of illegal immigrants, then we can consider adding additional laws.

We need to start holding companies accountable.

[tater]

I agree, platypus, but I still think we should also crack down on border security, AND we need to get rid of all other laws that give aid and succor to illegals—crap like giving them driver's licenses here in NM, or doing anything more than stabilizing them in hospitals, then immediately medivacing them home.

[Platapus]

I would agree. My point is that we need to concentrate on enforcing the existing laws not make new ones.

[vienna]

The laws that do exist are often set up to be non-enforceable. There exists a system called E-Verify by which an employer can confirm the legal status of a prospective employee as regards their legal right to hold employment in the US. However, it is only a voluntary system; employers are not required, by federal law, to use E-Verify. This new decision now allows the states to require, at their level, what should be required on a national level. The main reasons E-Verify was never set up as required on a national level is strong lobbying by certain businesses (hotel chains, restaurant chains, building maintenance, etc.) who want to use cheap labor, unions (like the SEIU) who see the immigrant population as a source of members and dues and thus have become "advocates" for the illegal population, and various other concerns who make rather large business from catering to the illegal community. In California, the republican candidate for governor (Mae Whitman) refused to back a plan to make California law reflect Arizona and other states' efforts to rein in illegal immigration by making it more difficult for illegals to gain employment. Her main argument was E-Verify was not accurate and reliable enough to be used by employers. This website deals with the accuracy of E-Verify:

http://www.homelandsecuritynewswire.com/how-accurate-e-verify-cont

The main part of the article is this:

93.8 percent of workers screened by E-Verify were authorized for employment---8212;and the system instantly and accurately confirmed more than 99 percent of these eligible workers.

The remaining 6.2 percent were not eligible for employment. Out of this estimated 6.2 percent, approximately half were told they are work authorized when they were not---8212;just 3.3 percent of the overall population screened by E-Verify.

To be clear, this means that only an estimated 3.3 percent of all workers screened by E-Verify were incorrectly told they were work authorized.


Clearly, a overall 96.7% accuracy rate is pretty good, if not excellent. the portion stating (bolding is done by me):

93.8 percent of workers screened by E-Verify were authorized for employment---8212;and the system instantly and accurately confirmed more than 99 percent of these eligible workers.

demonstrates this is an extremely workable system. The 3.3% mis-identified would be rectified as the system was used more and the errors corrected. This is something that should be mandated nationwide and it is a staggering embarassment that it is not so enforced and that states have to turn to doing so themselves. If I were the states, I would bill the Federal governemnt for the cost of doing the Feds jobs.

[Gerald]

Numbers are great, but the actual document is of course important in the end

[AVGWarhawk]

This is the way to handle illegal immigration. Punish the American companies that hire them. In other words, enforce the existing laws.

Only if the punishment of American companies does not stem the flow of illegal immigrants, then we can consider adding additional laws.

We need to start holding companies accountable.

Here in MD the companies that are found to have illegals are raided. The issue is human rights activitists crying foul. It brings bad PR on the police department that conducts the raids. Mean old men with big guns taking food away from children by arresting their illegal parents. Business owner losing his business. In the large scheme of things this crime is low on the list at gaining any attention from the police department. For this I agree. There are other more pressing issues for the police department to handle.

[Armistead]

The notion that any illegals pay enough taxes to even matter is at best dubious.

I'd bet money that overall illegals pay in less in taxes than they get in benefits, and almost no illegals make enough to pay a "fair share" of the tax burden (a fair share means a per capita share of the total tax revenue per family member).

What I fond most annoying about things like in-state tuition for illegals is that legal citizens from out of state pay more. An illegal is from out f state, they are from out of country. They should never get in-state tuition as they do here in NM.

I know how most illegals did it years ago. Most come in with a perfect fake SS and can get a DL in many states. I've seen 21 year olds put down many dependents, like 10-15, so lil to no taxes are taken. Come December most in construction visit back to Mexico and come back when things get busy. They'll switch the wording in their name, another set of fake ID"s and work another year. Illegals don't do taxes and just too many tricks to have lil taken from paychecks. They ought to require you prove your dependents. I've known several mexican illegal businesses that get caught by the IRS, they simply move and repeat the fake mess.

Every study I've seen show they pay lil tax compared to the social programs they use, in some states illegal mexicans alone take up over 50% of the budget

[AVGWarhawk]

Most come in with a perfect fake SS and can get a DL in many states


Most get stolen SS# from kids!

http://www.theantitheftdevice.com/stolen-social-security-numbers/want-to-know-more-cnn-reports-on-illegals-using-fake-and-stolen-social-security-numbers-this-happened-to-me

[mookiemookie]

One thing that people ignore in these conversations is the impact on prices that cheap illegal labor has. Cooks, dishwashers, construction guys, agricultural workers...without those guys, every business who relies on that labor would have to raise prices. Prices YOU pay everyday.

I'm willing to trade lower prices in places like restaurants and the supermarket for the extra taxes I have to pay (which are most likely minuscule on a per capita basis).

The answer isn't to kick everyone out. The answer is a worker program where these people can still work, be taxed, be tracked, and be deported if they break the law.

[AVGWarhawk]

One thing that people ignore in these conversations is the impact on prices that cheap illegal labor has.


Yes sir, this far outweighs the free amenities the illegals enjoy that the tax payers have the burden to bare.

It is a price WE pay every day!


The answer isn't to kick everyone out. The answer is a worker program where these people can still work, be taxed, be tracked, and be deported if they break the law


There is a program. It is called naturalization. Last time I checked it was paid for by the tax payers. Take the classes and become a legal tax paying citizen. No tracking required.

[mookiemookie]

There is a program. It is called naturalization. Last time I checked it was paid for by the tax payers. Take the classes and become a legal tax paying citizen. No tracking required.

If naturalization is such a great program that works so well, why are there illegal immigrants?

[Thomen]

There is a program. It is called naturalization. Last time I checked it was paid for by the tax payers. Take the classes and become a legal tax paying citizen. No tracking required.

There is? Can i have my money back then? :03:

I had to pay quite a bundle throughout the whole naturalization process. Or is it only free if you belong to certain.. uh minorities or ethnic groups?

If naturalization is such a great program that works so well, why are there illegal immigrants?

I think one of the reasons that there are so many illegals lies within the program itself. As you pointed out the other time, there can be a long wait, depending on your country of origin. Many may not want to wait, or they are looking for the easy way, o god knows why.

[Bakkels]

One thing that people ignore in these conversations is the impact on prices that cheap illegal labor has. Cooks, dishwashers, construction guys, agricultural workers...without those guys, every business who relies on that labor would have to raise prices. Prices YOU pay everyday.

I'm willing to trade lower prices in places like restaurants and the supermarket for the extra taxes I have to pay (which are most likely minuscule on a per capita basis).

The answer isn't to kick everyone out. The answer is a worker program where these people can still work, be taxed, be tracked, and be deported if they break the law.

I'm not exactly aware of all the laws that apply to this problem in the US, but wouldn't the best way to deal with this issue be a combination of what MookieMookie says here, and coming down hard on the companies employing them? Kicking out every illegal immigrant is just addressing the symptome. If you start a worker program for the illegals that are there now, while increasing controls of the companies involved, the problem should go away.

I saw AVGWarhawk mentioning that it's the police that raid companies now, but like he said; they probably have better things to do. Wouldn't it be an idea to let the IRS do this? And then go after the companies for tax evasion? Over here, our IRS has the jurisdiction to raid companies. Again, I don't know about US laws, but here in the Netherlands companies evading tax will face enormous fines. Way larger fines than employing an illegal immigrant.
Just a thought.

[vienna]

Let's talk about costs:

Illegal immigrant gets fake Social Security card; gets fake Driver's License; maybe with your SS# or DL#; he uses it; this is identity theft; he gets a job, maybe sets up credit somewhere with your data; you get dinged on your credit report and credit rating; you get a letter from the IRS demanding taxes for a salary you didn't earn; he goes about his life scot-free; if the heat gets to close to him, no problem: just get a new fake SS# and DL#; you have to deal with proving you aren't the person who incurred the charges or owes the taxes; just Google about identity theft and see how "easy" and "inexpensive" it is to correct your records. In many cases, you are "guilty until proven innocent".

There are costs outside of the tax loss and social services. Here in Los Angeles, paramedics are called out to respond to a large number of "emergency " calls for what turn out to be minor medical problems because the illegal who calls doesn't want to deal with questions at the hospitals and clinics. Each call cost a few hundred dollars just for the rollout, not to mention the loss a an ambulance and crew to possibly respond to a real emegency. Almost invariably, the costs are never recouped because the illegal simply disappears without paying.

How about auto insurance? Illegal slams into your car and, if he stops at all, will probably give you false ID and information and will probably have no insurance. You end up paying for all the costs and probably take a ding on your insurance rates. Worse yet, if there are injuries to the illegal, you will probably end up getting sued by the illegal and his ambulance chasing lawyer and paying for the "compensation" for the "victim" and his attorney fees.

Why do they come here illegally rather than go through the legal process? Because they can. There is no effective means to deter them because of arguments like the above that stopping them will increase the costs of food, services, etc. If we stopped them from being able to get jobs:


Prices may go up in the short term, but market pressures (price to high, people won't buy) will eventually force prices down in the long run;
The overall cost of enforcement will decrease as the number of opportunities for violations decrease;
Employer costs for enforcement will decrease as the system becomes more efficient at detecting violations;
The decrease in illegals would result in a decrease in cost due to identity theft, etc.;
Illegal immigration would decrease when the main incentive is gone and this would free-up employment opportunities for legal citizens, reduce the cost of social services, and have other "ripple effects" throughout the economy
I am not anti-immigrant; I am anti-illegal immigrant. My parent were both immigrants and I am a 1st generation American. My parents went through the legal citizenship process and all their lives were extremely proud to be American citizens, often more so than some people who were born here. They instilled this pride in me and I am grateful for their efforts. This is a main reason why I find it offensive for someone to slip into this country and then seemingly or actually demand citizenship or rights without putting in the work or having any loyalty to the country they want to live off of (bad grammar, I know...). I grew up in San Francisco, as racially diversive a city as you could find, and as a child in the 50's and 60's was surrounded by all kinds of immigrants who came to the US, followed the legal path to citizen ship, and were proud to be officially American. The people I grew up with had similar parents and were of the same mind. I recall several times on city buses or streetcars when some passengers would be speaking in a foreign language only to be told "This is America, speak English!" by fellow passengers in their own heavliy accented English. We have strayed a long way from that feeling of accomplishment and pride to today when we bend over backward to accomodate the demands of people who should not be here in the first place. I passed by a goverment office yesterday that displayed notice signs about the Memorial Day closure of its offices; there were about a dozen signs in as many languages. Why bother learning the language if you can demand English be translated for your convenience?

I've probably offended some people and I'm sorry you have delicate sensibilities; but, I still believe something must be done.

[Steps off soap box, goes looking for a beer...]

[Bakkels]

Well I don't think you offended anyone there. I've heard people saying way worse things when they were up on a soap box :O:
(I don't agree with the 'talking English on the bus' thing though. I mean; if you're from another country, you can talk to a fellow countryman in your native language. But of course when talking to an American, you should talk English)

But what do you think the solution should be?

[FIREWALL]

Let's talk about costs:

Illegal immigrant gets fake Social Security card; gets fake Driver's License; maybe with your SS# or DL#; he uses it; this is identity theft; he gets a job, maybe sets up credit somewhere with your data; you get dinged on your credit report and credit rating; you get a letter from the IRS demanding taxes for a salary you didn't earn; he goes about his life scot-free; if the heat gets to close to him, no problem: just get a new fake SS# and DL#; you have to deal with proving you aren't the person who incurred the charges or owes the taxes; just Google about identity theft and see how "easy" and "inexpensive" it is to correct your records. In many cases, you are "guilty until proven innocent".

There are costs outside of the tax loss and social services. Here in Los Angeles, paramedics are called out to respond to a large number of "emergency " calls for what turn out to be minor medical problems because the illegal who calls doesn't want to deal with questions at the hospitals and clinics. Each call cost a few hundred dollars just for the rollout, not to mention the loss a an ambulance and crew to possibly respond to a real emegency. Almost invariably, the costs are never recouped because the illegal simply disappears without paying.

How about auto insurance? Illegal slams into your car and, if he stops at all, will probably give you false ID and information and will probably have no insurance. You end up paying for all the costs and probably take a ding on your insurance rates. Worse yet, if there are injuries to the illegal, you will probably end up getting sued by the illegal and his ambulance chasing lawyer and paying for the "compensation" for the "victim" and his attorney fees.

Why do they come here illegally rather than go through the legal process? Because they can. There is no effective means to deter them because of arguments like the above that stopping them will increase the costs of food, services, etc. If we stopped them from being able to get jobs:


Prices may go up in the short term, but market pressures (price to high, people won't buy) will eventually force prices down in the long run;
The overall cost of enforcement will decrease as the number of opportunities for violations decrease;
Employer costs for enforcement will decrease as the system becomes more efficient at detecting violations;
The decrease in illegals would result in a decrease in cost due to identity theft, etc.;
Illegal immigration would decrease when the main incentive is gone and this would free-up employment opportunities for legal citizens, reduce the cost of social services, and have other "ripple effects" throughout the economy
I am not anti-immigrant; I am anti-illegal immigrant. My parent were both immigrants and I am a 1st generation American. My parents went through the legal citizenship process and all their lives were extremely proud to be American citizens, often more so than some people who were born here. They instilled this pride in me and I am grateful for their efforts. This is a main reason why I find it offensive for someone to slip into this country and then seemingly or actually demand citizenship or rights without putting in the work or having any loyalty to the country they want to live off of (bad grammar, I know...). I grew up in San Francisco, as racially diversive a city as you could find, and as a child in the 50's and 60's was surrounded by all kinds of immigrants who came to the US, followed the legal path to citizen ship, and were proud to be officially American. The people I grew up with had similar parents and were of the same mind. I recall several times on city buses or streetcars when some passengers would be speaking in a foreign language only to be told "This is America, speak English!" by fellow passengers in their own heavliy accented English. We have strayed a long way from that feeling of accomplishment and pride to today when we bend over backward to accomodate the demands of people who should not be here in the first place. I passed by a goverment office yesterday that displayed notice signs about the Memorial Day closure of its offices; there were about a dozen signs in as many languages. Why bother learning the language if you can demand English be translated for your convenience?

I've probably offended some people and I'm sorry you have delicate sensibilities; but, I still believe something must be done.

[Steps off soap box, goes looking for a beer...]

Very well put. :yep: .. :up:

[Gerald]

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/8089/orangecountysupportariz.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/143/orangecountysupportariz.jpg/)

[Armistead]

Shut down the hundreds of left over cold war bases in Europe and put them on our border where they will do some good. The border is a war zone now and should be treated as such. Also a few drone attacks on some drug kingpins would be nice.

We don't need to fix anything or make any laws, just enforce the ones we have.

[Gerald]

Good idea, :doh:

[vienna]

Two recent news stories showing why there will probably not be real reform anytime soon:

Will Supreme Court ruling on immigrants pit Big Business against states?
(Christian Science Monitor, May 27):

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2011/0527/Will-Supreme-Court-ruling-on-immigrants-pit-Big-Business-against-states


Republicans seem to soften on immigration
(Los Angeles Times, May 28):

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-immigration-politics-20110528,0,676131.story

[Platapus]

Shut down the hundreds of left over cold war bases in Europe and put them on our border where they will do some good. The border is a war zone now and should be treated as such. Also a few drone attacks on some drug kingpins would be nice.

We don't need to fix anything or make any laws, just enforce the ones we have.

I always thought that one of the duties of the military is to defend the national borders?

It should not be a posse comitatus issue as long as they are not enforcing the law.

On the borders - the military to defend the border
Just behind the military - civil law enforcement to press charges

Each does what they are supposed to.

Seems like we could cover the border pretty well with all the military overseas.

Sometimes the best defense is a good defense.

[Gerald]

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/1708/raid1articlelargeq.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/221/raid1articlelargeq.jpg/)
A raid on a branch of Chuy's Mesquite Broiler in Phoenix.

TUCSON — Obama administration officials are sharpening their crackdown on the hiring of illegal immigrants by focusing increasingly tough criminal charges on employers while moving away from criminal arrests of the workers themselves.

After months of criticism from Republicans who said President Obama was relaxing immigration enforcement in workplaces, the scope of the administration’s strategy has become clear as long-running investigations of employers have culminated in indictments, convictions, exponentially increased fines and jail sentences. While conducting fewer headline-making factory raids, the immigration authorities have greatly expanded the number of businesses facing scrutiny and the cases where employers face severe sanctions.

In a break with Bush-era policies, the number of criminal cases against unauthorized immigrant workers has dropped sharply over the last two years.

Among the employers who have felt the impact of the administration’s tactics are two owners of Mexican restaurants in the Chuy’s Mesquite Broiler chain, which are popular for their laid-back Margaritaville mood and their broiled mahi tacos. On April 20, immigration agents descended on 14 Chuy’s restaurants in coordinated raids in Arizona and California, detaining kitchen workers and carrying away boxes of payroll books and other evidence.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/30/us/politics/30raid.html?_r=1&hp


Note: Update Record, Published: May 29, 2011

[August]

There should be at least some social pressure to learn the local language and customs.

I like how Teddy Roosevelt put it:

"In the first place we should insist that the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equity with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace or origin.

But this is predicated upon the man's becoming an American and nothing but an American. There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag, and this excludes the red flag which symbolizes all wars against liberty and civilization, just as much as it excludes any flag of a nation to which we are hostile.

We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

[Platapus]

One of the regrets of my Maternal Grandmother was that she never became an American.

She was an American citizen for decades, she spoke English pretty well. But inside, she was still German and it bothered her a lot.

[Armistead]

I agree, platypus, but I still think we should also crack down on border security, AND we need to get rid of all other laws that give aid and succor to illegals—crap like giving them driver's licenses here in NM, or doing anything more than stabilizing them in hospitals, then immediately medivacing them home.

Why should taxpayers pay to medivac them home, unless you meant a taxi